 tmc8080
join:2004-04-24
Floral Park, NY
| crap speeds... Where are the 100/100mbit speeds? If a municipal entity underwrites a crappy service offering like that.. they got bilked! Fiber should be much higher speed than that, not capped and CHEAPER! I'm waiting for the day that 100/100mbit will be $50 a month UNCAPPED, UNLIMTIED, SYMMETRICAL! I'm also waiting for my hydrogen car. | |
|  | RayW
Premium
join:2001-09-01
Layton, UT
clubs:
 ·XMission
| Re: crap speeds... said by tmc8080  :Where are the 100/100mbit speeds? If a municipal entity underwrites a crappy service offering like that.. they got bilked! Fiber should be much higher speed than that, not capped and CHEAPER! I'm waiting for the day that 100/100mbit will be $50 a month UNCAPPED, UNLIMTIED, SYMMETRICAL! I'm also waiting for my hydrogen car. Due to QWEST's bought rules, UTOPIA just provides the 'tubes', your limitations are on the ISP you pick and how they structure their accounts. The same is suppose to be true for all the other services.
If you think the UTOPIA system is crappy service, then thank QWEST. But then I wonder how someone in New York has experienced UTOPIA?
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I am not lost, I find myself every time. | |
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insomniac84
join:2002-01-03
Schererville, IN
| There is not point in 100mbit speeds if customers are capped. Giving those speeds will just cause the problem of every customer going over their cap because they left some file sharing program open. So until businesses are ready to uncap(probably never) 100mbit is pointless. | |
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Raptor
Not a Dumptruck
join:2001-10-21
London, ON
 ·Rogers Hi-Speed
·Bell Sympatico
| 'If you build it, they will come.' FTA (Salt Lake City Newspaper) - "Two businesses have decided to locate in Brigham City partly because of the future availability of fiber-optic broadband"
Enough said. It's investing in your town/cities infrastructure. Who said businesses want to locate in high density metropolitan areas. If they can locate in a smaller town, and perform everything via 'new age' communication (video conference, etc), then I think people & companies would do it. Everyone wants to live outside the city anyway.
Damn people and their lack of vision need for instant profit.
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....where's my fiber? | |
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GOLFnSUN
Enjoy the sun
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Avalon, NJ
 ·Sprint Mobile Broa..
·Comcast
| Re: 'If you build it, they will come.' Sure they will:
While UTOPIA cables now run near 44,000 homes, the network has just 5,100 subscribers. Eventually the taxpayers in the cities dumb enough to back the bonds will see higher taxes for this government boondoggle.
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My BLOG
My Web Page | |
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KoolMoe
Aw Man
Premium
join:2001-02-14
Annapolis, MD
clubs: | Re: 'If you build it, they will come.' Will they? Just pushing the FUD or do you have actual evidence to support that prediction?
KM
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Don't Lie - Be Kind - Realize your Potential | |
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GOLFnSUN
Enjoy the sun
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Avalon, NJ
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
·Comcast
| Re: 'If you build it, they will come.' said by KoolMoe :Will they? Just pushing the FUD or do you have actual evidence to support that prediction? KM There have been plenty of news items showing they are losing money. I see nothing to indicate that that situation will change. Eventually the sales tax increase pledged to back the bonds will kick in.
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My BLOG
My Web Page | |
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KoolMoe
Aw Man
Premium
join:2001-02-14
Annapolis, MD
clubs:
 ·Verizon FIOS
·Speakeasy
| Re: 'If you build it, they will come.' Your avatar fails to hypnotize me into the pro-monopoly stance you advocate!
Yeah, not profitable yet. Two years into the project, about $100 million spent, and revenues increased from $123k to $1.5m in the last fiscal year.
Pretty good growth, it seems to me, for a two-year old project.
And the model is what It Should Be. Private companies owning infrastructure and providing services leads to monopolies, negligible competition, stagnant innovation, and increased prices. Muni-owned infrastructure opened to private companies providing services IS the right way to do this.
KM
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Don't Lie - Be Kind - Realize your Potential | |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: 'If you build it, they will come.' said by KoolMoe :Two years into the project, about $100 million spent, and revenues increased from $123k to $1.5m in the last fiscal year. So they are still down by $98+ million. Even with all of the advantages of not having to pay taxes or deal with regulations like private businesses do, they are still deep in the hole. Who is going to cover that cost? Even if they made $2m a year in revenue it will take at least 49 years to pay off that initial investment and even that doesn't factor in all the money they are going to spend maintaining this network.
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Only SHATNER is Kirk. | |
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KoolMoe
Aw Man
Premium
join:2001-02-14
Annapolis, MD
clubs:
·Verizon FIOS
·Speakeasy
| Re: 'If you build it, they will come.' Or...they increased their revenue in one year's time by 1000%. If they can keep even half that growth, this year they'll do $9 million in revenue. Hey, suddenly that's 11 years to pay off the investment.
They do a quarter of that growth next year, that's $22.5 million. WOW, only 5 years to pay it off!
Of course, none of that is profit, more loans will be needed, costs will continue, and the above would be a pretty outstanding growth rate.
But it's just as possible as the negativity y'all are insisting upon.
AND it allows actual services competition and allows for more consumer choice. Yeah, there's a loss of infrastructure competition which is a necessary downside, IMO, considering the nightmare the current ILEC/Cable monopolies have created.
I wonder how long it took AT&T to be profitable with their government credits?
KM
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Don't Lie - Be Kind - Realize your Potential | |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: 'If you build it, they will come.' said by KoolMoe :Or...they increased their revenue in one year's time by 1000%. If they can keep even half that growth, this year they'll do $9 million in revenue. I am sure they could increase the revenue by 100000000000% a year too. Then they would not only be profitable, but they would kick everyone else's butt!
said by KoolMoe :Of course, none of that is profit, more loans will be needed, costs will continue, and the above would be a pretty outstanding growth rate. But it's just as possible as the negativity y'all are insisting upon. The only difference here is that if a private company screwed up like this, then only its shareholders would be left holding the bag. When Utopia runs out of money, it will be the taxpayers left holding the bag, even those who did not voluntarily choose to take the risk.
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Only SHATNER is Kirk. | |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: 'If you build it, they will come.' said by KoolMoe :Ah, such is life of the American Tax Payer. When the huge S&L collapse occurred in the 80's, who bailed out this private industry? The poor American Tax Payer... This does not serve as justification for the taxpayer to be on the hook for everything. With this logic we should perhaps have taxpayer-backed grocery stores, drink bottling companies and pharmaceutical companies, because after all, these industries are critical and should be insulated from the conditions of the free market.
said by KoolMoe :But instead of the doom'n'gloom of how inevitable it appears to you that Utopia will never be profitable and will ultimately need to default on the loans...why not be willing to see how it'll work out? There are plenty of muni-fi projects which "make" money by skimming revenue from other municipally run services. However, government-run entities like Amtrak are proof enough that the government needs to simply stick to what it was chartered to do and not branch out into things that are better suited for the private sector.
said by KoolMoe :Again, my biggest support for this type of system is the neglect and abuse apparently inherent with the current ILEC/Cable monopolies. I don't like the fact that there's no In-N-Out Burger near me, does this mean I should petition my town hall to subsidize one? Just because we don't have things that we want doesn't mean that the government should become the solution to all the problems we face.
said by KoolMoe :Do you have any objection beyond the possible Tax Payer responsibility IF the project fails My primary objection lays in that governments have greater responsibilities. Things like good schools, low crime, and such are better tasked to local government than running of an ISP.
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Only SHATNER is Kirk. | |
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KoolMoe
Aw Man
Premium
join:2001-02-14
Annapolis, MD
clubs:
·Verizon FIOS
·Speakeasy
| Re: 'If you build it, they will come.' This does not serve as justification for the taxpayer to be on the hook for everything. With this logic we should perhaps have taxpayer-backed grocery stores, drink bottling companies and pharmaceutical companies, because after all, these industries are critical and should be insulated from the conditions of the free market.
Of course that's not what I'm suggesting at all. It's silly to take the debate to that extreme. I understand what you're saying about the unfairness to taxpayers. My attempted counterpoint was 1) in response to your faith the project will fail - though perhaps that wasn't very clear - and 2) that taxpayers have had to bail out much bigger and actual criminal failures before without tragic results.
Sometimes the risk is worth it.
There are plenty of muni-fi projects which "make" money by skimming revenue from other municipally run services. However, government-run entities like Amtrak are proof enough that the government needs to simply stick to what it was chartered to do and not branch out into things that are better suited for the private sector.
Why assume they'll need to "make" money by skimming from other services? Let the bias go and see what happens...?
I do generally agree that gov't run services can be failures, from a profitability standpoint, like Amtrack. However, my local government seems to maintain sewage, roads, water, and emergency services just fine.
Hmmm.
I don't like the fact that there's no In-N-Out Burger near me, does this mean I should petition my town hall to subsidize one? Just because we don't have things that we want doesn't mean that the government should become the solution to all the problems we face.
Again, a silly extension. Things like food services have been proven to work just fine in a free market situation. Things like telecommunications have proven to not. There can be plenty of fast food restaurants in the town that will support them - all they need is a building, roads (gov't maintained!), and employees.
The same, IMO, cannot be said for telecommunications. Infrastructure is massively disruptive and expensive. Franchise agreements almost guarantee no competition.
If your town only had one restaurant because the existing one had the influence and money to block all others then, sure, maybe you should petition town hall.
My primary objection lays in that governments have greater responsibilities. Things like good schools, low crime, and such are better tasked to local government than running of an ISP.
I generally agree! However, the internets is increasingly a necessity, not a luxury (to be debated!). Where the free market is NOT providing services, I don't have a problem with local governments stepping up, if approved by the constituents, to do so.
For every muni project that didn't work out or is in financial trouble, I bet there are just as many stories about how those communities now have broadband options they did not have before due to ILEC/Cable indifference or unwillingness. And where the muni project is still viable, I bet costs from all providers are a good bit lower for the residents.
Aren't those good things?
KM
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Don't Lie - Be Kind - Realize your Potential | |
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gatorkram
Spelling and Grammer impared
Premium
join:2002-07-22
Winterville, NC
clubs:
·Embarq
 ·linode
| said by GOLFnSUN :Sure they will: While UTOPIA cables now run near 44,000 homes, the network has just 5,100 subscribers. Eventually the taxpayers in the cities dumb enough to back the bonds will see higher taxes for this government boondoggle. So?
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Give me bandwidth or give me death! | |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: 'If you build it, they will come.' said by gatorkram :said by GOLFnSUN :Sure they will: While UTOPIA cables now run near 44,000 homes, the network has just 5,100 subscribers. Eventually the taxpayers in the cities dumb enough to back the bonds will see higher taxes for this government boondoggle. So? This attitude is one of the drawbacks of having so many people in the country who do not pay their fair share of taxes. If tax burden was shared equally (in that everyone paid the same percentage of their income in taxes), and everyone actually felt the pain of a tax hike, then people would not be wishing for one or supporting one. In the USA, half of the wage earners pay nearly 97% of all the taxes. The remaining people do not pay an amount proportional to the top half, so they are more likely to support a tax hike because the odds are, they won't see the impact of it at all.
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Only SHATNER is Kirk. | |
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karlmarx
join:2006-09-18
iraq
·Fairpoint Communic..
| Re: 'If you build it, they will come.' 97% of the taxes are paid by 50% of the people? Hmm.. how about 98% of the wealth is owned by 2% of the people. People who CAN afford to pay more, SHOULD pay more. If you make 250,000.00 a year, I have NO PROBLEM if you pay 150,000.00 in taxes. If you make 50,000.00 a year, I have no problem if you pay 0.00 in taxes.
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Stick it to the MAN. Support your local torrent sites. Proudly providing 100mb of upstream for all your TV, Movie, and MP3 needs. | |
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GOLFnSUN
Enjoy the sun
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Avalon, NJ
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
·Comcast
1 edit | Re: 'If you build it, they will come.' said by karlmarx :97% of the taxes are paid by 50% of the people? Hmm.. how about 98% of the wealth is owned by 2% of the people.People who CAN afford to pay more, SHOULD pay more. If you make 250,000.00 a year, I have NO PROBLEM if you pay 150,000.00 in taxes. If you make 50,000.00 a year, I have no problem if you pay 0.00 in taxes. Your numbers are wrong, but they do suit your steal from the rich to pay for the freeloaders philosophy.
»www.ft.com/cms/s/41470ec0-845b-1···340.html
Richest 2% hold half the world’s assets
50%, not 98%. So your numbers are WAY off, as usual.
And you are preaching to the wrong people at BBR. A big chunk of BBR users fall into the top 2%. See this msg thread:
»[Poll] Where do you fall among the world's rich ?
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My BLOG
My Web Page | |
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karlmarx
join:2006-09-18
iraq
·Fairpoint Communic..
| Re: 'If you build it, they will come.' So, someone who makes 25.00/hr (50K a year) is a FREELOADER? Hmmmm.. You obviously have issues with working people. You active dislike of the 'middle class' is apparent in your postings. I consider 50,000.00 a 'middle class' salary, and count many of my friends in that salary range. Apparently, you support Chomsky who correctly argues that the wealthy use free-market rhetoric to justify imposing greater economic risk upon the lower classes, while being insulated from the rigours of the market by the political and economic advantages that such wealth affords. "the free market is socialism for the rich"
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Stick it to the MAN. Support your local torrent sites. Proudly providing 100mb of upstream for all your TV, Movie, and MP3 needs. | |
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ninjatutle
Premium
join:2006-01-02
San Ramon, CA
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
| The only good commie is a dead one! The rich pay a percentage to tax, the middle class pays a percentage and the poor pay a percentage.
Everyone owes their share.
If only the rich were required to pay taxes, what is the incentive for them to make more? None. I know I wouldnt work anymore if I had to give it all up to taxes to fund crackhead welfare mothers or for old people.
Dream on commie. You belong in the middle east where this takes place. | |
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ninjatutle
Premium
join:2006-01-02
San Ramon, CA | Spoken like a true commie. | |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| said by karlmarx :People who CAN afford to pay more, SHOULD pay more. If you make 250,000.00 a year, I have NO PROBLEM if you pay 150,000.00 in taxes. Why? What did someone who makes $250k a year do to you?
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Only SHATNER is Kirk. | |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: 'If you build it, they will come.' said by wifi4milez :Its nothing but envy for those who are more successful than he is. Dont feed the resident commie/troll, it only encourages him! Not so sure about that... after all, he never replied, which goes to show how easy it is to stop commies in their tracks.
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Only SHATNER is Kirk. | |
| | | ccoggle
join:2001-08-06
Salt Lake City, UT
| Somehow I doubt you live in the Qwest footprint.
The company refuses to invest in their infrastructure and are just waiting to be bought out. In the mean time anyone in their service zone is forced to purchase their slow antiquated services at absolutely insane prices. | |
| RayW
Premium
join:2001-09-01
Layton, UT
clubs:
·XMission
| I am still waiting. said by »www.slweekly.com/editorial/2006/···0-05.cfm :Paul Larsen, economic development director of UTOPIA member Brigham City, said his city joined UTOPIA because telecommunications companies wouldn't bring anything better than dial-up to businesses at the top of Main Street. Since the city signed with UTOPIA, both Qwest and Comcast have added high-speed lines to Brigham City, he said. I like how the for executive profit only incumbents sue to stop people (who are using their elected governments) from putting in a decent system where the incumbents either do NOT want to go or CHERRY pick where they do go, yet when something like UTOPIA does start to go in, they will rush to get the cherry neighborhoods so as to skim the cream (too many metaphors).
I am supposedly in phase two, you can bet that if it gets all the way up the bench to my area, I will drop QWEST in flash.
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I am not lost, I find myself every time. | |
| ghein
join:2003-01-23
Draper, UT
| Very happy with Utopia We've just had it for a few weeks at work. Speeds are very good (close to the 30mb/15mb rated), latency is single digit for some sites. No issues with our ISP (XMission), and it hasn't gone done at all. I'm sure that honeymoon will wear off, but so far it has been great. I'd switch my home from Comcast to Utopia in a heartbeat if it was in my neighborhood. | |
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hobgoblin
Sortof Agoblin
Premium
join:2001-11-25
Orchard Park, NY
clubs:
| Re: Very happy with Utopia said by ghein :We've just had it for a few weeks at work. Speeds are very good (close to the 30mb/15mb rated), latency is single digit for some sites. No issues with our ISP (XMission), and it hasn't gone done at all. I'm sure that honeymoon will wear off, but so far it has been great. I'd switch my home from Comcast to Utopia in a heartbeat if it was in my neighborhood. Could I see some single digit traces?
Hob
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"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson
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| | | ghein
join:2003-01-23
Draper, UT
| Re: Very happy with Utopia Here's one to Novell, which is local (Provo vs. SLC)
C:\Documents and Settings\Administrator>ping www.novell.com
Pinging www.novell.com [130.57.5.25] with 32 bytes of data:
Reply from 130.57.5.25: bytes=32 time=6ms TTL=58
Reply from 130.57.5.25: bytes=32 time=5ms TTL=58
Reply from 130.57.5.25: bytes=32 time=5ms TTL=58
Reply from 130.57.5.25: bytes=32 time=6ms TTL=58
Ping statistics for 130.57.5.25:
Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 5ms, Maximum = 6ms, Average = 5ms
Other sites (not in the valley) are in the 20-30ms range:
Pinging www.myspace.com [216.178.32.51] with 32 bytes of data:
Reply from 216.178.32.51: bytes=32 time=28ms TTL=245
Reply from 216.178.32.51: bytes=32 time=28ms TTL=245
Reply from 216.178.32.51: bytes=32 time=29ms TTL=245
Reply from 216.178.32.51: bytes=32 time=28ms TTL=245
Ping statistics for 216.178.32.51:
Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 28ms, Maximum = 29ms, Average = 28ms
C:\Documents and Settings\Administrator>ping www.salesforce.com
Pinging www.salesforce.com [204.14.234.33] with 32 bytes of data:
Reply from 204.14.234.33: bytes=32 time=27ms TTL=246
Reply from 204.14.234.33: bytes=32 time=26ms TTL=246
Reply from 204.14.234.33: bytes=32 time=28ms TTL=246
Reply from 204.14.234.33: bytes=32 time=26ms TTL=246
Ping statistics for 204.14.234.33:
Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 26ms, Maximum = 28ms, Average = 26ms
That's faster than my home Comcast link, which averages 38ms for Novell, 45ms for Salesforce, and 53ms for Myspace. | |
| Chewyrobbo
join:2005-04-12
Tacoma, WA
| TOPOLOGY 100/mbit symmetrical is like impossible, everyone wants uncapped speeds, but then how much does the bandwidth cost those guys. Theres a bottleneck someplace, and 100mbit means just having 10 people connected would be something like a gig per every ten people. i know it ain't business level, but think about it, somewhere that connection connects to the real internet, yea it theoretically can do the maximum of fiber, but that connection eventually meets up with everyone elses, 100mbit INTERNET is just not what residential needs. | |
| | ccoggle
join:2001-08-06
Salt Lake City, UT
1 edit | Re: TOPOLOGY Hate to break it to you. In the asian markets ~100 megabit per household is very common. | |
| ccoggle
join:2001-08-06
Salt Lake City, UT
| I have it I migrated our small business to it. The day the salesman came in from Xmission I nearly wet myself.
Two years ago we installed a second T1 as the first just wasn't providing enough bandwidth. At the time of the installation I told the company providing the second T1 that if Utopia ever became available I wanted it written in the contract I could cancel without a fee. They laughed and told me Utopia was a pipe dream and they were more than glad to accommodate that provision.
Boy were they surprised when I called them up.
We now have 30/30 fiber from Xmission which we use VOIP over for 1/18 the cost we use to pay for 2 T1's and Quest phone fees. | |
| RayW
Premium
join:2001-09-01
Layton, UT
clubs:
·XMission
| Jealous people or coporate shills? I like how most of the negative comments on UTOPIA are from people NOT in Utah. Living in Utah AND being in a city that voted to participate (and having voted FOR it), I can say that I am looking forward to it.
It is interesting that as you read through posts to DSLR on the subject of broadband deployment, you see at times that some people think the concept of UTOPIA has to be available to everyone in the country, without regards as to where they live or if they can afford it. Yet at the same time, you have things like our UTOPIA being bashed because it is not contributing to their stock portfolio. Have UTOPIA, but only if the stock portfolios and executive bonus benefit.
Yes, there is a chance that our tax base will take a hit, especially with QWEST and others trying their best to take over the most lucrative markets while ignoring (insert favorite disadvantaged whatever/whomever) areas while at the same time being able to make money off of UTOPIA because of the QWEST sponsored law. But there is also the chance that it will bring in other revenue that does not show up in the profit/loss statements of UTOPIA (example was given of two companies leaving Salt Lake City and moving up to Brigham City for better BB service).
As in all things, just remember, "Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics", and both sides will bend the financials to look good. I feel it is easier for the COMCAST/AT&T/VERIZON/QWEST/whatever groups to point out how bad UTOPIA is since they only have to look at pure profit/loss statements. The other side can not as easily point out the intangibles like more tax base and other benefits (if there are any).
As for me, I live in Utah, I work in Utah, I own a home in Utah, I pay Utah taxes, I do not work in any field related to or with a vested interest in UTOPIA, and I am all for it. So are many of my neighbors (well I know two who are not, but one works for Comcast and the other runs a WISP service).
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I am not lost, I find myself every time. | |
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UTOPIANOT
@iauq.com
|  Re: Jealous people or coporate shills?
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| | | rahvin112
join:2002-05-24
Sandy, UT
| Re: Jealous people or coporate shills? You voted for representation in government. That's what our government is, representative, not a direct democracy. Any time you let the populace have direct control of the treasury is when bankruptcy occurs. Look at California as the prime example of what happens when the populace has control of the cookie jar, they all vote themselves and cookie and lower the cookie tax simultaneously.
Although the final end scenario is still out on Utopia, it WAS a good government decision. It will draw commerce to Utah and as a result will increase tax revenue. If Utopia can put the screws on Comcast and Qwest then everyone in Utah will enjoy lower prices for communication and information services. Did you know that if you live where Utopia is available you can get Comcast Cable and Internet for nearly half the price everyone else has to pay?
I believe in private enterprise, and the large government monstrosity Utopia will evolve into for the maintenance is quite scary, along with the founding cities seeing Utopia as some sort of future profit engine for their cities government, I do feel their are future paths to eliminate that future headache while still providing the open pipe architecture to the system. The same open system that has benefited our public roads for the last 60 years and proved to be the biggest single factor affecting economic growth in this country.
And just an aside, I believe they only projected 3000 subscribers at the end of phase 1 which is much less than the current number. So at the current growth rate they should easily handle the 30 year bonds which have a class AAA rating. | |
| Nuts
join:2006-04-27
Forest, OH
| AT&T, The Hypocritcal Company I find it interesting that AT&T will offer service through Utopia, to the detriment of QWest and Comcast. However, they have no qualms about suing communities in their own backyards. I think based on AT&T being a service provider on Utopias network, should void any lawsuits that they have against other munis. | |
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MSauk
MSauk
Premium
join:2002-01-17
Sandy, UT | Re: AT&T, The Hypocritcal Company I for one can't wait to move back to utah in an area that has UTOPIA.
I am more then willing to pay more taxes to have an internet service like that. | |
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Utopia Enters Second Phase
Can't blame him for trying.
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