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Which ISPs Throttle BitTorrent Traffic?
Broader network neutrality fight to emerge...

Life Hacker points to this handy Azureus wiki covering which ISPs throttle or otherwise degrade BitTorrent application performance. What started as a tactic by Canadian provider Shaw (we were the first to report on it) has evolved into an elaborate game of cat and mouse between BitTorrent client developers and ISP network administrators in multiple countries.

Once ISPs started blocking ports, customers got wise and began using different ports. Once ISPs started traffic shaping, several client developers integrated encryption in an effort to mask BitTorrent traffic. Several ISPs then began limiting the number of overall connections -- see this thread in our forums where an RCN exec is uncommonly candid about what his company is doing to handle BitTorrent bandwidth drain.

ISPs throttling BitTorrent traffic isn't Bram Cohen's preferred solution, clearly, since it ruins the company's financial plans to launch a video store. Cohen, eager to get on the right side of ISPs, has been selling the idea of caching Bit Torrent content on the ISP network.

It will be interesting to see if throttling continues after the launch of the BitTorrent and Azureus video stores -- a cable provider throttling upstart video competitors will surely catch the eye of those politicians (and content providers) eager to get network neutrality laws passed.
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Xantos
join:2006-12-11

Xantos

Member

RE

Very Interesting Indeed. Nice Information to have on hand at times.

FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

1 edit

FFH5

Premium Member

Re: RE

Did anyone notice that BBR's favorite piñatas - Comcast & AT&T aren't on the list.
matrix3D
join:2006-09-27
Middletown, CT

matrix3D

Member

Re: RE

I did notice. I wonder why that is? Is it because nobody knows or they simply aren't doing any kind of BT limiting?

DreamWraith
Premium Member
join:2004-04-07
Mount Vernon, WA

DreamWraith

Premium Member

Re: RE

Well, i know for a fact comcast isn't doing anything in these parts to thwart BT.
hcjake
join:2003-09-12
Neenah, WI

hcjake to matrix3D

Member

to matrix3D
AT&T doesn't do any BT limiting, they don't limit anything. You can download and upload as much as you want.

jonez
Got Anime?
Premium Member
join:2004-09-24
Stow, MA

jonez to FFH5

Premium Member

to FFH5
said by FFH5:

Did anyone notice that BBR's favorite piñatas - Comcast & AT&T aren't on the list.
I don't know about AT&T, but comcast doesn't need to throttle your bittorrent speeds. If you pass their 'invisible' bandwidth cap, they terminate your service.

Atleast verizon doesn't do that. Note - that's my total upload on FIOS in the picture above but that's over a two month period.
matrix3D
join:2006-09-27
Middletown, CT

1 edit

matrix3D

Member

Re: RE

quote:
Note - that's my total upload on FIOS in the picture above but that's over a two month period.
Die.

Nightshade
Premium Member
join:2002-05-26
Salem, OR

Nightshade to Xantos

Premium Member

to Xantos
This is old information for me since I have been using Azerus for over a year now but it is still useful none the less.
Techman21
join:2005-04-14
Richmond, VA

Techman21

Member

Another annoyance

What is annoying about this is that we, the customer, are using a product that is sold to us in a way we wish to use it. Then we are scolded for using what we pay for. It seems many ISPs [read telco/cable] companies are upset over not having a piece of the pie and the usage of bandwidth isn't what they originally anticipated. So in order to retain customers and not have to upgrade equipment they screw with what their customers do with that connection. This is crappy imo. We pay for the service of being connected to the internet with pipes that are supposedly advertised at certain rates, then the companies can't deliver. Its almost a bait and switch scheme except its perfectly legal, however unscrupulous it is done...due to the ToS and its tiny writing of "not guaranteed" "with exception" etc, etc. Eventually as much as we don't want to we need to start dumping these companies for a bit to show we are the customer and they exist because we pay the bills. Shop with your dollars I say.

This really is starting to get annoying. Packet shaping traffic because you don't like it impedes creativity and further development of newer technologies on the internet. Just because they were unforeseen shouldn't make them "bad" or even if they aren't used the in the ways they were intended. Although, I do have to say that I think its a farce to believe BT was intended originally for anything else but sharing music, movies, games, et al. Effectively circumventing the normal P2P routes most Joe's were getting their music.

MxxCon
join:1999-11-19
Brooklyn, NY
ARRIS TM822
Actiontec MI424WR Rev. I

MxxCon

Member

Re: Another annoyance

said by Techman21:

I think its a farce to believe BT was intended originally for anything else but sharing music, movies, games, et al. Effectively circumventing the normal P2P routes most Joe's were getting their music.
most definitely "share movies, games et al." but never illegally.
Bram Cohen created bittorent not because he didn't like speeds he was getting using gnutella or edonkey. he never designed it with warez as target users. it just happened to be used for that, but it was never his target.
Enlightener
join:2006-01-28
Cedar Park, TX

Enlightener

Member

Re: Another annoyance

I call BS on this one. I've read his Manifesto and I don't buy that it was a parody at all.

»bitconjurer.org/a_techno ··· nda.html
amungus
Premium Member
join:2004-11-26
America

amungus

Premium Member

Re: Another annoyance

wow, never read that before... interesting.

anyway, bt was initially created to facilitate trading of taped shows, legally. despite what some people think, many bands allow their shows to be recorded, and don't care if the recording is shared.. As long as nobody's SELLING them and trying to make a buck off of what should be TRADED, it's all good. Other bands, however, do wish to SELL their own shows, and often produce a high quality soundboard recording that's been professionally mixed... I've bought a few, and they're well worth the money for FLAC's...

from what I read, he had a friend who was an avid taper and wanted an good way to distribute these sets to people. to share it easily, and not have servers explode under the load of a billion hippies all wanting to download the previous night's set in lossless audio...

so, that's what I heard. A noble cause really, and the technology happened to get picked up by more and more people with less noble ideas in mind for its use...

Sweet Witch
Be the flame, not the moth.
MVM
join:2003-07-15
Gallifrey

Sweet Witch

MVM

We need fairness

I've got no problem with anyone who wants to spend their life downloading, except when it sucks away my bandwidth. Why should we pay the exact same amount and I basically get punished because I don't hog the channel?? If they want to use my bandwidth, then they should either pay part of my bill or give me some cash.

MxxCon
join:1999-11-19
Brooklyn, NY

1 edit

MxxCon

Member

Re: We need fairness

or isp should have proper setup where my use does not affect your connection.
instead of trying to cut every corner and do absolute minimum got get the signal.
bogey7806
join:2004-03-19
Here

1 recommendation

bogey7806

Member

Re: We need fairness

Trying to keep up with bt is alosing battle as it'll grow to consume available space.

Sweet Witch
Be the flame, not the moth.
MVM
join:2003-07-15
Gallifrey

Sweet Witch

MVM

Re: We need fairness

said by bogey7806:
Trying to keep up with bt is a losing battle as it'll grow to consume available space.
Do what you want, just don't be so damned greedy and causing others grief along the way.
Sweet Witch

1 recommendation

Sweet Witch to MxxCon

MVM

to MxxCon
said by MxxCon:
or isp should have proper setup where my use does not affect your connection. instead of trying to cut every corner and do absolute minimum got get the signal.
That would be fine too. I've got a neighbor who spends all day downloading everything he can find (why I don't know because he never has the time to watch any of it) and until they capped him, my 15/2 connection slowed to DSL speeds.
grandpinaple8
join:2006-01-03
New York, NY

grandpinaple8

Member

Re: We need fairness

Don't hate the player. Hate the game.

FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

1 recommendation

FFH5 to Sweet Witch

Premium Member

to Sweet Witch
said by Sweet Witch:

I've got no problem with anyone who wants to spend their life downloading, except when it sucks away my bandwidth. Why should we pay the exact same amount and I basically get punished because I don't hog the channel?? If they want to use my bandwidth, then they should either pay part of my bill or give me some cash.
I agree. But the cable companies aren't overly concerned with download bandwidth. It is the upload bandwidth drain that causes concerns with bittorrent. And before all the "I paid for it and I'll use it" whiners start chiming in, the networks were NEVER designed to support non-stop usage of the upload bandwidth you get with your subscription. If the networks were designed to handle that, most people couldn't afford the monthly bill. Every single cable broadband provider prohibits running servers and the usage of an unmodified bittorrent client breaks that prohibition. So the companies are entirely within their rights to block bittorent.

hopeflicker
Capitalism breeds greed
Premium Member
join:2003-04-03
Long Beach, CA

1 edit

hopeflicker

Premium Member

Re: We need fairness

said by FFH5:
said by Sweet Witch:

I've got no problem with anyone who wants to spend their life downloading, except when it sucks away my bandwidth. Why should we pay the exact same amount and I basically get punished because I don't hog the channel?? If they want to use my bandwidth, then they should either pay part of my bill or give me some cash.
Every single cable broadband provider prohibits running servers and the usage of an unmodified bittorrent client breaks that prohibition. So the companies are entirely within their rights to block bittorent.
I think i read somewhere that there are some providers that dont care if you run servers. And for the TOS regarding servers, those are hardly ever enforced. I mean, how can they tell?
amungus
Premium Member
join:2004-11-26
America

amungus to FFH5

Premium Member

to FFH5
"It is the upload bandwidth drain that causes concerns with bittorrent."

That, and a billion connections that keep coming and going from all reaches of the known (and unknown) internet....

IMHO, the use of upload from most home connections isn't the biggest concern... Most cable networks actually CAN handle people using their upload on a fairly regular basis... so can DSL...

If someone uploaded all day to their own website, for instance, it wouldn't be that big of a deal.
If people upload an hour long video to youtube or wherever, it's not that bad...
But, if one sits there and has 100's of connections open and they're constantly switching on and off to various places, the ISP's routers then get a little congested and all that starts affecting other people's traffic. Really, even with 1 or 2 Mbps upload, a user uploading to one place at a time does FAR less damage than a user that is using that bandwidth and having it route to the ends of the earth...

just my 2 cents. not trying to whine that everyone should constantly be juicing the system...

thender2
Glamour Profession
Premium Member
join:2004-05-16
Staten Island, NY

3 edits

thender2 to Sweet Witch

Premium Member

to Sweet Witch
said by Sweet Witch:

I've got no problem with anyone who wants to spend their life downloading, except when it sucks away my bandwidth. Why should we pay the exact same amount and I basically get punished because I don't hog the channel?? If they want to use my bandwidth, then they should either pay part of my bill or give me some cash.
If you're forced to think of it in those terms, your ISP sucks and oversells too much. OOL comes to mind, they do that like crazy.

It's easy to have the fastest on paper speeds. It's hard to make them useable.

I have neighbors with open WAPs that have at least five people on them.. at any time in the day(before I did him a favor and passworded his wireless), the speeds were 50/100 with 400 ms pings.. after, it was 2000/1500 kbps. He uses the same ISP as me, and I get MORE speed than I pay for.. and it's never slowed down before.

Annon900
@zen.co.uk

Annon900

Anon

So who are the providers who are shaping traffic?

Does anyone here want to give the name of there provider, who is currently shaping there traffic?

Here is one Tiscalli, oh and another who Tiscalli provide internet to is Pipex....

Any more out there?

Then we know who to avoid.!!!!!

odreian615
join:2006-01-18
Chicago, IL

1 edit

odreian615

Member

What no bad mouthing ATT

Oh wait ATT dont Cap you, block or degrade torrents

DaSneaky1D
what's up
MVM
join:2001-03-29
The Lou

DaSneaky1D

MVM

The facts are not accurate

That grid said Charter limits the bandwidth of high traffic users. That is absolutely false, and quite the contrary when compared to other cable HSI providers.
markopoleo
join:2003-04-02
Bonne Terre, MO

markopoleo

Member

Re: The facts are not accurate

I was just getting ready to post the comment myself. They don't limit bandwidth for high traffic users.

Sounds like some disgruntled person rather than fact. lol

IPingUPing
N4BFR
Premium Member
join:2002-08-30
Atlanta, GA

IPingUPing

Premium Member

Business Model

BitTorrent's business model is to resell access to bandwidth that is not their own.

From »www.bittorrent.com/compa ··· iew.html
At the foundation of the BitTorrent experience is the software client, which has become the industry standard for the distribution of large files. With over 70 million users worldwide, it leverages the install base to simultaneously increase transfer speeds and decrease bandwidth costs during the download process.
Can't imagine what would happen if I wanted to resell cell phone access through my Verizon or Cingular account, can you? Why should this be any different?

Transmaster
Don't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus
join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY

1 edit

Transmaster

Member

Re: Business Model


Bite My Shiny Ass
Reselling what, WE are the ones paying for the bandwidth, and I am sure the bit-torrent sites are paying good money for their server space. I am not talking about content, there are plenty of good, legal stuff to download. Remember the ISP's provide the bandwidth and are paid for it's use in various ways no body is stealing anything. Your example of cell phone use is completely bogus.

IPingUPing
N4BFR
Premium Member
join:2002-08-30
Atlanta, GA

IPingUPing

Premium Member

Re: Business Model

Let me guess, you only distribute Linux ISO's and Phish concert tapes? Riiiiigght.

It's not YOUR bandwidth. You are not buying a dedicated connection as a residential user, you are buying a best effort connection. For example, here's some of the terms for your ISP: »www.qwest.com/legal/usag ··· icy.html.
Users shall not use the Qwest Network and Services in order to transmit, distribute or store material: (a) in violation of any applicable law or regulation, including export or encryption laws or regulations; (b) that may adversely affect the Qwest Network and Services or other Qwest customers; or (c) that may expose Qwest to criminal or civil liability. Users are prohibited from facilitating the violation of any part of this AUP or another provider's AUP, including, but not limited to transmitting, distributing, or otherwise making available any product or service that violates this AUP or another provider's AUP.

Transmaster
Don't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus
join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY

Transmaster

Member

Re: Business Model

Ya, Ya I see you have all of the answers. In fact I do not download anything from Bi-Torrent that is considered illegal. All of my downloading is English documentaries not available in the United States in any form and from a bit-torrent tracker that is very careful about it's content. so I repeat you can kiss my shiny ass and you can take you best effort and stick it where the sun don't shine.

thender2
Glamour Profession
Premium Member
join:2004-05-16
Staten Island, NY

thender2 to IPingUPing

Premium Member

to IPingUPing
said by IPingUPing:

Let me guess, you only distribute Linux ISO's and Phish concert tapes? Riiiiigght.

It's not YOUR bandwidth. You are not buying a dedicated connection as a residential user, you are buying a best effort connection. For example, here's some of the terms for your ISP: »www.qwest.com/legal/usag ··· icy.html.
Users shall not use the Qwest Network and Services in order to transmit, distribute or store material: (a) in violation of any applicable law or regulation, including export or encryption laws or regulations; (b) that may adversely affect the Qwest Network and Services or other Qwest customers; or (c) that may expose Qwest to criminal or civil liability. Users are prohibited from facilitating the violation of any part of this AUP or another provider's AUP, including, but not limited to transmitting, distributing, or otherwise making available any product or service that violates this AUP or another provider's AUP.
That's too bad for the ISPs, then. Some adapting is in order!

Qwest is one of the worst ISPs on the face of the earth.. their TOS means little.
Hctim
join:2004-09-12
Denver, CO

Hctim

Member

Re: Business Model

Thasp's knows what he is talking about. Qwest has high interleave because they are to lazy to fix some of the errors there lines. Then they also kill p2p traffic because i dunno they suck? But who i'm i to talk Bresnan cable in Cheyenne,wy over sells there bandwidth from at&t and sprint when you get on at 8pm at night your pings are 400ms then 11pm back down to what they should be.
dynodb
Premium Member
join:2004-04-21
Minneapolis, MN

dynodb

Premium Member

Re: Business Model

No, thasp doesn't know what he's talking about. The TOS "means little". Well alrighty then

Despite what the website says, Qwest doesn't block P2P traffic. People have had problems with the modem locking up due to too many connections and the like leading them to believe that Qwest is throttling them. This issue has come up multiple times on the Qwest forum.

Every connection generates errors; moreso if you have a long line with high attenuation. Interleaving trades latency for stability. Some don't like it, but the policy has nothing to do with laziness.

In other words, you're just making things up.

thender2
Glamour Profession
Premium Member
join:2004-05-16
Staten Island, NY

thender2 to IPingUPing

Premium Member

to IPingUPing
Business model? There is no business model. Cohen doesn't receive money when you download gentoo linux using bittorrent.

gatorkram
Need for Speed
Premium Member
join:2002-07-22
Winterville, NC

gatorkram

Premium Member

My isp

My isp does something very weird with bt traffic. They seem to block some connections, but not all. Using encryption has no affect. I can download from every seed, and maybe about 1/2 the peers, and then when I am done downloading, and only seeding, I can connect to about 1 in 4 peers.

This practice of deciding what protocols I can use, should be illegal. This is no different than the water company calling me up and saying, sorry, but people with pools use to much water, so when you fill up your pool, the water won't be at full pressure, or how about when it's hot, and summer, your electric company calls you up and says, hey man, I heard you got a new A/C, I'm sorry but we don't approve of that brand, because it uses to much electricity, so we are going to brown you out whenever we feel like it.

You can say whatever you want, to defend these idiot companies, and say, as long as it is in their TOS, then its fine and dandy. This is total BS.

My isp is suddenlink

IPingUPing
N4BFR
Premium Member
join:2002-08-30
Atlanta, GA

IPingUPing

Premium Member

Re: My isp

said by gatorkram:

This is no different than the water company calling me up and saying, sorry, but people with pools use to much water, so when you fill up your pool, the water won't be at full pressure.
Ahh.. but there are rules about how much water you can use a day, (»www.ncwater.org/Rules_Po ··· lations/). Any bets on if you decided to fill your pool every day because you wanted to sample some new water and fill up a few water trucks for your friends, since it is YOUR water, would you would get a visit?

gatorkram
Need for Speed
Premium Member
join:2002-07-22
Winterville, NC

gatorkram

Premium Member

Re: My isp

Man, you must have spent a lot of time, trying to find a flaw in my post.

Boredness
So bored...
Premium Member
join:2005-07-07
Fresno, CA

1 edit

Boredness

Premium Member

I hope that AT&T doesn't start throttling now!

If they do I will leave them for somebody better!

pkarlos_76
join:2004-08-24
Edmonton, AB

3 edits

pkarlos_76

Member

Legitimate users have lost again.

FYI: I recently spoke to a representative from Shaw Cable after escalating a issue I had above Tier 2 support, he indicated to me that ellacoya is only used part time of sorts when a area is found to have excessive bandwidth usage He indicated that it is enabled and disabled based upon the determination from complaints and traffic patterns of users in an area, if they are adversely affected then Shaw enables it.

My chief complaint is that I use Blizzard's legitimate patch down loader for World of Warcraft to pre download the patches prior to patch day, however I have been unable to determine whether the the slow download of the patches are because of Ellacoya or Blizzards download servers. However, for any of my other Bit-torrent needs I use a encrypted client to encrypted client only option in a torrent program I currently use to get my torrents at a unhindered rate. So all in all the legit torrent users are being punished while others can use the alternate torrent program I use to circumvent traffic shaping for illegitimate purposes. I guess just like DRM the legitimate users are the losers.