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Venice Project a Cap Killer
320MB downloaded, 105 MB uploaded per hour
by Karl Bode 04:56PM Thursday Jan 04 2007
If you're planning on using the "Venice Project," a video p2p system being developed by Skype creators Janus Friis and Niklas Zennstrom, you'd (not surprisingly) better plan on finding an ISP that doesn't have bit caps. According to documentation sent to beta testers, there's a warning banner than notes: "One hour of viewing is 320MB downloaded and 105 Megabytes uploaded, which means that it will exhaust a 1 Gigabyte cap in 10 hours." It's not clear exactly how ISPs with restrictive bandwidth consumption limits (or BitTorrent restrictions) plan on retaining customers if they keep those restrictions in place as broadband video explodes.

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ColorBASIC
8-bit Fun
Premium
join:2006-12-29
Corona, CA

1 edit

1 recommendation

How do they keep customers?

They don't want those customers because the cost of providing them service costs more than they get in revenue. These niche applications aren't used by the majority of customers. Until they are, the cable providers (as I'm not aware of any US DSL providers who have caps) who cap will say good riddance.

When these applications become very popular, then it will be a matter of competitive forces just as price and speed are. I would guess that cable would just charge more for higher cap tiers just as Cox does now, or fork over the money to increase capacity which can get very expensive as we see with Comcast spending nearly $100M in just the Bay area alone for service upgrades (takes a lot of $50 subs to get back $100M).

Another alternative is for ISP's to work behind the scenes to some how throttle that traffic just as some hobble BT traffic now.

FFH5
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ
kudos:5

1 edit

Re: How do they keep customers?

Yes, and the upload bandwidth of a P2P video system is the killer for cable systems. They could live with the bandwidth of straight downloads of videos if they don't get too frequent. But the P2P mechanism described here that results in a megabyte of upload for every 3 megabytes of download would be a show-stopper.

They will create their own video download ventures before they allow a product like Venice to flourish. They will drop customers that use this before allowing it to spread.
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Markus4

join:2005-05-27
Middlesboro, KY

No video broadband for you!

My ISP, Suddenlink, throttles connections back to 1/4 speed if you download more than 30MB in 10 minutes, so apps such as these will remain more or less useless to me.

For those of us unfortunate enough to be stuck with an ISP which employs such draconian bandwidth limiting measures, the brave new world of broadband video is de facto off limits, unless you purchase a business plan with no caps or throttling in place, just so you can enjoy content aimed at the home user.
--
My Sites: www.ageofantiquity.com and www.spacebuffs.com.
fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3

Re: No video broadband for you!

said by Markus4:

My ISP, Suddenlink, throttles connections back to 1/4 speed if you download more than 30MB in 10 minutes, so apps such as these will remain more or less useless to me.
There goes the Windows service packs.. The whole idea of broadband is to get the larger files faster..

I can see bandwidth caps based on a monthly basis.. but in day parts.. then the broadband is worthless... yes, even for the casual user.

The bottom line is this: increase the available bandwidth once and for all and quit making excuses. Phone is busy lowering the rates of DSL to obtain more customers from dial up and cable users. They claim that they need to control what's going on at the backbone level.

The way I see it, at the expense of all users, phone is being greedy by under pricing their DSL service to make their numbers look good - because it appears that it's the only way they can get 'em.

If they need money, raise the rates to a level where cable is. $45 a month is NOT unreasonable for a good broadband service. (Anything over 1.5 meg at this point.)

People need to bit the bullet and realize that there is still much investment that needs to be made in the infrastructure of the internet.

If they would simply collect the money, invest into more available bandwidth including routers, switches, etc.. then we don't need to be treating the data transfer like gas prices. Further, these monthly, daily, and hourly bandwidth caps become non-existent.

Why are they doing all this capping at this point? Because they can.
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Michieru2
zzz zzz zzz
Premium
join:2005-01-28
Miami, FL

Re: No video broadband for you!

So in short, you are saying for the ISP's to provide more capacity, right?
fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3

Re: No video broadband for you!

No...

The back bone carriers.

DaSneaky1D
what's up
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-29
The Lou
Reviews:
·Charter

Re: No video broadband for you!

A cable company could buy a zillion OC-768's if they wanted to have enough bandwidth for you. The backbone provider has nothing to do with anything capacity related.

Cable companies will just need to open their wallets a little more...and so will you.
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:: my trivial ramblings ::
fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3

Re: No video broadband for you!

THe cost of providing broadband is largely related to the cost of getting the internet carried from A to B.. ie: the backbone and who's going to carry it.

When the backbone gets congested, the price of using that line becomes more expensive.. Phone has the throughput from the home to the CO.. .get on the cloud and it can be busy.. they need to open up those paths..

There was a user that posted exactly why the cost of the backbone is justified. It's the amount of equipment, the switches, routers, and the lines themselves. If those are upgraded and paid for, then capacity is not an issue and the caps can be higher.

Take a good look at Australia and why they are one country with some of the WORST internet pricing. Maybe that will explain better. They only have so much going from AU to the rest of the world and it comes at a premium.
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amungus
Premium
join:2004-11-26
America
Reviews:
·Cox HSI
·KCH Cable
wow, that has to be the WORST capping I've ever heard of!

...I'd like to see if Cox would mess with 'em...
I'm no heavy downloader, but limiting to 1/4 after such a small amount is absurd...

Least it sounds like this video quality could be quite good!
Kearnstd
Space Elf
Premium
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ
kudos:1
install any MMORPG from CD/DVD and you would break that 30 megs just patching.
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Markus4

join:2005-05-27
Middlesboro, KY

Re: No video broadband for you!

I've been throttled many times downloading game patches and the like. Cripes, I got throttled viewing a lot of large images on NASA's website.
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My Sites: www.ageofantiquity.com and www.spacebuffs.com.
Kearnstd
Space Elf
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join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ
kudos:1
a company the size of comcast if they wanted to would just buy the backbone provider itself.
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[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports

ninjatutle
Premium

join:2006-01-02
San Ramon, CA
I wonder what they'll do to you once they find your talking smack about them on an online forum

Throttle you back to 56k speeds
Markus4

join:2005-05-27
Middlesboro, KY

Re: No video broadband for you!

said by ninjatutle:

I wonder what they'll do to you once they find your talking smack about them on an online forum

Throttle you back to 56k speeds
This is actually something that has crossed my mind, though I'd hate to think the powers-that-be at Suddenlink would be so petty. Who knows, though?

Regardless, I don't consider it talking smack as what I said in my initial post was the straight truth. My Suddenlink broadband connection is only "broad" in small spurts. Look at DSLReport's Suddenlink forum, »Suddenlink, to see some real smack talking.
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My Sites: www.ageofantiquity.com and www.spacebuffs.com.

dvd536
as Mr. Pink as they come
Premium
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ
kudos:4
said by Markus4:

My ISP, Suddenlink, throttles connections back to 1/4 speed if you download more than 30MB in 10 minutes, so apps such as these will remain more or less useless to me.

For those of us unfortunate enough to be stuck with an ISP which employs such draconian bandwidth limiting measures, the brave new world of broadband video is de facto off limits, unless you purchase a business plan with no caps or throttling in place, just so you can enjoy content aimed at the home user.
Suddenlink is the old cebridge. that doesn't surprise me one bit they'd FAP you.
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hottboiinnc
ME

join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH

Re: No video broadband for you!

They are also some of the smaller regions of others: Alliance, Tele-Media, Thompson, USA Media, Cox and Charter.

»suddenlink.com/About-Suddenlink.html
brianiscool

join:2000-08-16
Tampa, FL
kudos:1

:(

This won't be big in the USA.

dadkins
Can you do Blu?
Premium,MVM
join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA
kudos:18

Beta Testers?

Hook a download wannabe up with one of these "Beta Tokens"!!!

I'll take it for a test-thrash... got a new machine with over 120GB of free space wasting away!

Wonder if there is any HD... PM me if ya have a spare invite.
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Think outside the Fox... Opera

Raptor
Not a Dumptruck

join:2001-10-21
London, ON
Reviews:
·Rogers Hi-Speed

Calculatron

"One hour of viewing is 320MB downloaded and 105 Megabytes uploaded, which means that it will exhaust a 1 Gigabyte cap in 10 hours."

One Hour = 320MB+105MB = 425MB
10 Hours = 4250MB = 4.15 GB
Or if you like math, to achieve 1GB (1024MB) = 2.41 Hours @ 425MB/hr

So, it's more like 2hr 25min per GB.
Even worse!
--
....where's my fiber?
rbrugman

join:2002-09-22
Marquette, MI

Charter

This may be the one and only time that I will be happy to be a Charter customer. So far, I can download torrents at 5Mb/sec all day and night and they don't say anything. Maybe that's because they know their speeds are already less than everyone else and they want to keep customers?
devnuller

join:2006-06-10
Cambridge, MA

Re: Charter

No, it is because they have not found you yet. I can't think of any provider that wants a non-profitable customer like you. The more people like you, the more likely providers will go to a pay / bit model similar to how ISPs changed to 95%ile billing back in the 90's moving away from all-you-can-eat T1s and T3s.
rbrugman

join:2002-09-22
Marquette, MI

Re: Charter

Well I do have a business account and in my contract it says unlimited usage, so if they want to break the contract it lets me find a better ISP
hottboiinnc
ME

join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH

Re: Charter

Time Warner's Biz class says Unlimited too. but the AUP/TOS doesnt . At least not in this area.

damath

@swbell.net

low bit rate

SO 430 Mbytes/hr

= 2560 Mbit/hr

= 43.666 Mbit/min

= .711 mbit/sec

So, this is either pretty low resolution video or a really bad quality encode.

To compare, the IPTV people are encoding 640x480 video at around 2.4 mbit/sec.

dadkins
Can you do Blu?
Premium,MVM
join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA
kudos:18

1 edit

Re: low bit rate

Never seen a good XviD, have you?
I have full movies that fit on a single CD(~700MB) that look great!

No idea... yet, what they are encoding the video at or what codecs are being used, but it *IS* possible to have decent quality in small packages.
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Think outside the Fox... Opera
raccettura0

join:2002-09-28
USA

Bandwith worth it

It may sound like a lot of bandwidth... but it's totally worth it. The quality is extremely good for streaming video. And pretty fast buffer time using Comcast.
peerimpact

join:2005-11-07
Londonderry, VT

1 edit

Its not p2p that's scaring your ISP

Telcos and Cable companies wont like the Venice project because it competes with their TV/VOD content and The Venice Project is advertising supported .

Viacom already has plenty of its content on the Venice project with MTV clips and shows and other networks will have their content on the Venice Project when its no longer a project and has a different name .

Go look at the Screenshots .

»www.theveniceproject.com/screenshots/

Its a full screen app with lots of overlays kinda like Apple Frontrow ,With RSS Feeds and Jabber Chat (Gtalk also)
There's also search and a whole lot of other plugins .the client is built on Mozilla XUL platform and Native Mac and Linux clients are being developed .

The Venice Project is not perfect and thier a bugs and improvements needed but they are listening to their users who are helping develop what may be the future of TV for the always on connected generation .

Trinijoy
Premium
join:2005-09-12
Brick, NJ

Lawsuit...Lawsuit...Lawsuit...Lawsuit

Here comes the law suits...
Here comes the law suits...

Here comes the law suits with the Groom at her side!
peerimpact

join:2005-11-07
Londonderry, VT

Re: Lawsuit...Lawsuit...Lawsuit...Lawsuit

The Lawsuits from TVP when the ISPs try and block their streams you mean .

All content on The Venice Project is authorized by the content owners and only a portion of the stream is stored encrypted on a users hard drive .

AnonProxy
Premium
join:2001-05-12

Very simple

When video on download really becomes a service to be recconed with. ISP's will partner with an "approved vendor" / business partner. To that end if you purchase the "approved" service (for an "approved price that makes them a nice profit) the downloads from their vendor will NOT count towards your monthly cap.

They will make up some BS about it being hosted locally, not costing bandwidth cost over the Internet but being routed over their private Intranet. Bla bla bla

People still don't get that bandwidth control really has nothing to do with existing network infrastructure but has everything to do with controlling future content delivery.

If they can figure out ways to throttle you now, they can "cattle gate" you into future services.

AnonDOG

@kaballero.com

320 MB per hour does not ...

320 MB per hour does not equate to 1 GB in ten hours...

320 down x 105 up per hour is 425 M per hour. Clearly that is almost 1/2 GB/Hour...

It is one thing for Verizon help staff to fail to comprehend basic math...

jamesb478

join:2005-12-29
Foster, RI

1 recommendation

any spare tokens?

If anyone has one of the invite tokens to give out, please give me a PM with the info. Thanks!

jgkolt
Premium
join:2004-02-21
Avon, OH

tokens

how do you get a spare token

Rexter
YeeHaw

join:2002-11-17
cloud 9

Let market forces controll this.

ISP's need to get their s*** together. If you can't offer that kind of bandwidth at $50 per month, then don't. You need to offer higher tier packages, and make more money. Don't waist your money trying to stop the very service that you provide. Save your resources for metering usage, and charge accordingly. It's easy, you can choose to spend your money pissing off, loosing customers, and creating bad PR, or you can invest to finding ways to generate more revenue. The choice should be a no-brainer.
--
When all is said, and done, there will be more said than done.
Markus4

join:2005-05-27
Middlesboro, KY

Re: Let market forces controll this.

Straight spoken and true. I would happily pay more for a more robust home connection, though not three times as much for the same connection unthrottled and uncapped (i.e., a business connection).
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My Sites: www.ageofantiquity.com and www.spacebuffs.com.
jtel

join:2005-06-28
Bristol, RI

Backbone Limitations

The backbones don't have the capacity to support this product - yet. Level 3, Global Crossing and the old Qwest fiber network are going to be very valuable again if this type of thing takes off.
peerimpact

join:2005-11-07
Londonderry, VT

Re: Backbone Limitations

The Venice project is lighting up its own fiber lines for their many data centers .

And bandwidth used by peers for many of these peer assisted content distribution networks attempt to keep as much bandwidth within a domain as possible so the ISP should be happy that peers on their networks are helping keep their costs down and put very little pressure on the backbones and may help solve the last mile problems that many ISPs have .
jtel

join:2005-06-28
Bristol, RI
Reviews:
·Full Channel TV ..

Re: Backbone Limitations

"The Venice project is lighting up its own fiber lines for their many data centers ."

We'll see how its received once its out of Beta. This isn't Skype skirting accepted telco handshake billing. Everything Venice does will be measured and scrutinized.

Any info on price?