 |  | 
Maxeh
Woot?
Premium
join:2002-12-23
Chicago, IL
clubs: | Re: Not that bad fiber is a double edged sword  fast speeds, but damn fragile
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Woot? | |
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Siryak
join:2005-11-26 | Yah when Wildblue's Fiber backbone to their Laredo NOC got cut it took them 2 days to fix the dang thing.
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Wildblue Pro Pack / Beam 40 / Laredo NOC / Windows MCE SP2 | |
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Maxeh
Woot?
Premium
join:2002-12-23
Chicago, IL
clubs: | Re: Not that bad fiber isn't an easy thing to fix, it all depends on how it was cut, and how much was damaged.
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Woot? | |
| | | | srobmw
join:2005-10-01
New Windsor, NY
 ·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Not that bad Actually, fiber is relatively easy to fix.
5 Hours to restore a cut fiber is outstanding.
A 216 fiber cable can be placed and respliced in several hours.
A 3600 pair paper insulated copper cable would've probably taken a couple weeks. | |
| | | | | dynodb
Premium,VIP
join:2004-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
| Re: Not that bad said by srobmw  :Actually, fiber is relatively easy to fix. 5 Hours to restore a cut fiber is outstanding. A 216 fiber cable can be placed and respliced in several hours. A 3600 pair paper insulated copper cable would've probably taken a couple weeks. It doesn't take nearly that long for a cable cut- I've routinely seen 1200 pr cable cuts fixed in a day. A 3600 pr cut might take a couple of days, not weeks. | |
| | | | | | srobmw
join:2005-10-01
New Windsor, NY
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Not that bad If you don't care where the various dial tones wind up, yeah, you can have it fixed in a day. Paper cable has no color code, therefore, if it's cut you need to tone every pair from the central office as well as the many remote terminals they serve. One pair at a time.
It's not just a game of continuity, but, straight continuity.
Trust me. I do this stuff for a living. | |
| | | | | | | dynodb
Premium,VIP
join:2004-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
| Re: Not that bad I could see it taking a lot longer with pulp cable- just don't see much of it anymore in our region. Of the many cuts I've had to deal with (not in the field though) I've never encountered one taking more than a couple days, including those involving thousands of pairs. | |
| | | | | | | | srobmw
join:2005-10-01
New Windsor, NY | Re: Not that bad You sound like the management of my company (which shall remain nameless). Lol.
Anyway, getting back to the original point, fiber is immensely easier to fix. | |
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Maxeh
Woot?
Premium
join:2002-12-23
Chicago, IL
clubs:
·DSL EXTREME
1 edit | Re: People you can't take that outlook when looking at it from say an enterprise perspective, every second of uptime counts (believe me i know, i work in a datacenter)
in this case it may have been cell service and internet, but let's just say a portion of those folks use VoIP with no copper coming in and they had a emergency, both cell and net were down, how were they to call 911? uptime counts. | |
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spamd
Premium
join:2001-04-22
Rockford, IL
 ·Insight Communicat..
| Re: People said by Maxeh :you can't take that outlook when looking at it from say an enterprise perspective, every second of uptime counts (believe me i know, i work in a datacenter) in this case it may have been cell service and internet, but let's just say a portion of those folks use VoIP with no copper coming in and they had a emergency, both cell and net were down, how were they to call 911? uptime counts. They don't.
I just wish us Americans would stop trying to fix things that are not broke. The fact of the matter is SHIT HAPPENS. We as a society try to fix, mend, make it better, ect. When in reality we should stop trying and realize that the system is fine the way it is. Having this attitude of 110% uptime at all costs, and be dammed if it goes down, are not realistic people, you live in a FANTASY world which will never come true.
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When everything is coming your way, you are in the wrong lane. | |
| | 
Frink
Professor
join:2000-07-13
Scotch Plains, NJ
| said by hayabusa3303 :Dont people understand things can't be up 100 percent of the time. People should look at there internet and cell phones different when it goes down. Big deal, net and cell phones are out doesnt mean the world is coming to a end.  IMO.. SH** HAPPENS PEOPLE GET OVER IT Redundancy is simple. Shit happens a great deal more to poorly (cheaply) planned networks. | |
| | | alchav
join:2002-05-17
Palm Desert, CA
·Pacific Bell - SBC
|  Re: People
said by Frink :said by hayabusa3303 :Don't people understand things can't be up 100 percent of the time. People should look at their internet and cell phones different when it goes down. Big deal, net and cell phones are out doesn't mean the world is coming to a end. IMO.. SH** HAPPENS PEOPLE GET OVER IT Redundancy is simple. Shit happens a great deal more to poorly (cheaply) planned networks. Redundancy is not simple or cheap, and sometimes you only have one path to a location. People want Cheap, Fast, Quality Service, and cry out loud went they don't get it. This also happened when Copper was used, but like someone said, more people are affected now. A better solution would be better tracking of underground utilities, and a faster more efficient way of repairing them. | |
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Fatal Vector
join:2005-11-26 | Re: People
People just expect that when they are paying premium prices for service, that service should be working and they dont want to hear excuses. | |
| | | | | dynodb
Premium,VIP
join:2004-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
| Re: People said by Fatal Vector :People just expect that when they are paying premium prices for service, that service should be working and they dont want to hear excuses. Sorry duder, there is no Santa Claus, babies do not come from the stork, and there is no such thing as a failure-proof telecommunications system. If you can't handle that, you can cut your chances and buy a second circuit to cut your chances of downtime because Backhoe Bob didn't call for a cable locate before digging.
The $45/month "premium prices" or so you pay for DSL, cable, mobile phone or whatever does not entitle you to 100% uptime anymore than someone paying $400/month for a T1 or thousands a month for a DS3.
People here who have absolutely no clue how telco networks operate (which describes most of you) throw around words like "redundancy" as if every single strand of fiber, copper pair and piece of equipment that isn't redundant or failure-proof is a result of Big Evil Corporate Greed. Sorry kiddies, but installing an entirely new fiber conduit to avoid 6 hours of downtime every 5 years or so the fiber is cut just ain't going to happen, so expect that once in a great while you won't be able to play WoW or use your cell phone for half a day.
Fiber cuts happen, and rarely are they the fault of the telco. It takes time to locate the cut, get digging equipment to expose the fiber and repair many tiny fiber strands, which is much more difficult and time consuming than splicing copper pairs. Add on the occasional need to get city permits to block traffic and dig up a street, pump out water and provide ventilation and 6 hours is at the low end of what it takes to fix a fiber cut no matter how much money and manpower you throw at it, and 12-18 hours isn't at all unreasonable for a major cut. | |
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digitalfreak
join:2005-12-09
49533
2 edits | Re: People I pick 100/100 to the house. Course that'll never happen with FTTN...  | |
| | | | | | | | dynodb
Premium,VIP
join:2004-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
| Re: People said by digitalfreak :I pick 100/100 to the house. Course that'll never happen with FTTN... You can get 100/100 to your house now. It just won't be cheap.  | |
| | TechnoNolan
join:2004-11-21
Mount Sterling, KY
| Why accept mediocrity? Mobile phones and/or internet phone/email are quickly becoming many people's sole source of outside communication. I don't think that it's too much to ask that companies build in network redundancy. In fact, I expect it.
It sounds like you've never been out of cash, away from friends & family, and unable to complete an ATM/debit card transaction. I have. It's not a fun experience.
That said, I do agree with you. Five hours to repair a line in a remote area doesn't seem all that bad unless the provider has promised and you've paid for a higher level of service. | |
| 
TigerNutz
Laissez les bons temps rouler
Premium
join:2000-12-23
Little Rock, AR | outages When one of these fiber lines get hit more people are going to feel it 'cause of the simple fact it carries more subscribers/data than the old copper cables.
So....you are going to hear a lot more bitchin' | |
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Trinijoy
Premium
join:2005-09-12
Brick, NJ | Okay... So why are people mad a Qwest when they had nothing to do with it? | |
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Frink
Professor
join:2000-07-13
Scotch Plains, NJ
| Re: Okay... said by Trinijoy :So why are people mad a Qwest when they had nothing to do with it? see my above post. It is as much Quests fault as the construction crew for not providing a redundant fibre path, if not more. | |
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GOLFnSUN
Enjoy the sun
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Avalon, NJ
 ·Sprint Mobile Broa..
·Comcast
| Re: Okay... said by Frink : It is as much Quests fault as the construction crew for not providing a redundant fibre path, if not more. Redundancy is definitely a good idea. But you can't have redundancy everywhere there is fiber. Backbones sure. Major paths sure. But not to every FTTN location. Farmers and construction crews will still cause outages. You can't make everything 100% available.
--
--
My BLOG
My Web Page | |
| | | dynodb
Premium,VIP
join:2004-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
| said by Frink :said by Trinijoy :So why are people mad a Qwest when they had nothing to do with it? see my above post. It is as much Quests fault as the construction crew for not providing a redundant fibre path, if not more. Your post above was almost as clueless as this one.
Qwest is just as responsible as those actually cutting their fiber? Unbelieveable.
If I'm ever in Hoboken, how about I come and slash your tires? After all, it's just as much your fault as mine if you're late for work because you didn't have 4 spare tires in your trunk. | |
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Frink
Professor
join:2000-07-13
Scotch Plains, NJ
1 edit | Re: Okay... said by dynodb :said by Frink :said by Trinijoy :So why are people mad a Qwest when they had nothing to do with it? see my above post. It is as much Quests fault as the construction crew for not providing a redundant fibre path, if not more. Your post above was almost as clueless as this one. Qwest is just as responsible as those actually cutting their fiber? Unbelieveable. If I'm ever in Hoboken, how about I come and slash your tires? After all, it's just as much your fault as mine if you're late for work because you didn't have 4 spare tires in your trunk. Poor comparison. My tires service me. My tires don't service anyone that pay me to provide service to them.
I design & provide network support to an enterprise, so I'm not clueless.
Yes, providing redundant fibre to mom & pop cowboy on the last drop of a fibre line is rediculous. What isn't rediculous is having a second path on an ONI to a major business district & cell network, as is in the case of the story above.
Edit: Just another thought, YES I am partially responsible for my tires being slashed by you, because I didn't pay for a garage which would protect my tires from your Viking loving tire slashing knife. I have had my Hoboken street parked mirrors snapped off by hoods twice, which I've had to replace. If I paid the extra cost of garaging my car, that wouldn't have happened.
Go Jets | |
| | | | | 
The Answer Guy
@Level3.net
| Re: Okay... Redundancy is a dream for many and a reality for few. Yes, long haul backbones are the few. You really have no idea how many local major backbones are not redundant. Lines serving 1,000s of customers or even 10,000+ customers are not redunant in my state. It is not due to bad planning. The cost to provide it is just to costly. Until the local telcos provide some sort of next generation network, you won't see anything close to a redundant network.
You do realize that FTTP is not a redundant network on the local loop back to the central office. | |
| viperlmw
Premium
join:2005-01-25
·Qwest.net
| Is KathrynV spinning? Just curious where the anger is. None of the articles linked either in this post or previous posts with linked articles once used the word "angry". There was this from a previous post:
'Qwest customers had reason to be upset...'.
However, this line from this post
"Qwest disappointed already-angry customers...",
seems to be spin. If I want spin, I'll watch Fox News, or a Bush press conference. One may be able to assume SOMEONE was angry, but that was never stated in any of the articles. | |
| 
ArgMeMatey
join:2001-08-09
Milwaukee, WI
·AT&T Midwest
| Expect nothing and you will not be disappointed A lot of people don't read the fine print. Carriers are happy to sell you what they can, but unless you're willing to pay for redundancy, you get bumped if there's a problem.
A lot of people think fiber is automatically in ring configuration (UPSR or BLSR), when sometimes it is just point-to-point.
Even if it is configured as a ring, it is sometimes "collapsed" temporarily (this is a ring shaped more like an hourglass) until the carrier has the money or traffic to justify a fully diverse network. Verbal date estimates by salespeople cannot be taken to the bank.
Then even when it is configured as a ring, large regional rings following heavily-used auto and utility rights-of-way can have weekly or even daily problems with squirrels, backhoes, lightning, car crashes, and so on. It's a challenge for any carrier to balance response time with profit.
If your contract does not include an SLA and a detailed map or rundown of circuit segments, you can assume you'll get best effort, but no more.
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USNG:16TDN2870 Find your Lat-Long: Geocoder | |
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Fatal Vector
join:2005-11-26
| Re: Expect nothing and you will not be disappointed "It's a challenge for any carrier to balance response time with profit. "
Ballance response time with profit my ass. People are paying for service at what amounts to premium prices and they expect that service to be working when they need to use it. The company shouldn't have offered the service if they couldn't provide it reliably, Especially when a whole city or region is down, which is not just some small outage to a couple of people.
Amazing how many corporate apologists there seem to be out there. It's OK for them to rip off for service, but then the customer has to kiss their ass and wait while they "ballance response time with profit". | |
| | |
ArgMeMatey
join:2001-08-09
Milwaukee, WI
·AT&T Midwest
| Re: Expect nothing and you will not be disappointed said by Fatal Vector :Amazing how many corporate apologists there seem to be out there. It's OK for them to rip off for service, but then the customer has to kiss their ass and wait while they "balance response time with profit". Bring it on. I stand by all my remarks in their entirety. Don't assume I am apologizing for anyone; I am just pointing out that we're all dealing with the used-car salesmen of the 21st century.
Nobody guarantees anything will be working all the time under all possible circumstances. The carrier who provides the best service wins that segment of the market. People who don't pay as much don't get as much.
How do you suggest the problem be solved? | |
| | | dynodb
Premium,VIP
join:2004-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
| What's amazing is how many people like you there are who have absolutely no clue what they're talking about, but continue to say it anyways.
Chances are that those affected had service 99.95% of the time this year, but I guess that .05% of the time they were down because some idiot cut the fiber makes the service "unreliable" and the provider greedy because they couldn't employ Magical Cable Fairies to repair the cut instantly.  | |
| | | 
hobgoblin
Sortof Agoblin
Premium
join:2001-11-25
Orchard Park, NY
clubs:
| "People are paying for service at what amounts to premium prices and they expect that service to be working when they need to use it."
$2 a day is Premium prices? 10 cents an hour is Premium prices?
Oh really.
Hob
--
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Fatal Vector
join:2005-11-26
| Re: Expect nothing and you will not be disappointed "$2 a day is Premium prices? 10 cents an hour is Premium prices?"
Nickles and dimes quickly add up. $2 a day = $60 a month, $720 a year BEFORE TAXES. Yes, I'd say that is premium pricing for todays broadband services for the average consumer, who has every right to expect that service to be working when they need it.
Providing redundancy should be a matter of pride and a cost of doing business. That's the trouble these days, none of these corporations, awash in money as they are, wants to do anything that wont allow them to rip off the consumer for another dollar. The quest for the allmighty bottom line and quick shareholder profit.
Besides which, what I said was a general statement. Interesting how seemingly everyone here wants to turn it into a personal statement and then jump to the attack. | |
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hobgoblin
Sortof Agoblin
Premium
join:2001-11-25
Orchard Park, NY
clubs:
| Re: Expect nothing and you will not be disappointed "Besides which, what I said was a general statement. Interesting how seemingly everyone here wants to turn it into a personal statement and then jump to the attack."
It was a statement MADE by you therefore it was your personal statement.
If $2 a day is a lot to you I suggest you look for something that costs a little less....maybe Dial Up.
Hob
--
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Fatal Vector
join:2005-11-26
| Re: Expect nothing and you will not be disappointed
It was made by me, but meant in a general way.
$2 a day is a big deal to many, if not most people. Not everyone has more money than sense, nor do they care to throw it down a rathole for nothing.
I use DSL at $13 a month. This will soon go up to $19 a month. A far cry from $42 for comcast, especially since I dont need 6 Mb and the DSL is far more stable speed wise. Never mind that their reliability has been exemplary as has their service when needed.
And, yes, I expect it to be up when I need it, which is their responsibility, regardless of what I'm paying. I, personally, can understand accidents, etc. However, when a outage goes on and on, or, service keeps failing, I get testy about it, especially when the service rep just sits there and spouts the current company lie...err...line about it.
"If $2 a day is a lot to you I suggest you look for something that costs a little less....maybe Dial Up."
The typical smug attitude of someone with more money than he knows what to do with and doesn't care.
If you have the money to pay high prices for broadband, more power to you. I'm just not going to pay any of them more than I have to for service I dont need. | |
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hobgoblin
Sortof Agoblin
Premium
join:2001-11-25
Orchard Park, NY
clubs:
| Re: Expect nothing and you will not be disappointed "I use DSL at $13 a month. This will soon go up to $19 a month."
I think you have an unreasonable expectation of what you should get for that paltry sum.
Hob
--
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Fatal Vector
join:2005-11-26
| Re: Expect nothing and you will not be disappointed "I think you have an unreasonable expectation of what you should get for that paltry sum."
I expect it to work, even at 3 in the morning, like they told me it would and I hold up my end and pay for it like I said I would. A deal is a deal. I dont see what is "unrealistic" about that.
To give them credit, the "death star" hasn't let me down yet and the service they give is exemplary. | |
| | | pumpkinhead7
join:2002-06-14
Fairmont, WV
·RoadRunner Cable
| Whats more amazing is that they even state in the TOS that they dont offer 100% uptime and you choose to ignore that, but if they "guranteed" (actually state the max) you would receive xxxx/xxxx speeds then you would jump all over. Remeber the TOS isnt there for you to pick and choose what you want to hear, its there to state what is and what is not part of the service | |
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digitalfreak
join:2005-12-09
49533
| Re: Happened here too said by ricep5 :See; no internet at Starbucks. The horror! | |
| viperlmw
Premium
join:2005-01-25
·Qwest.net
2 edits | A word (or two) on redundancy I can only speak about telcos, not to familiar with cable telephony. Most telcos (I say most, not all, has anyone heard of Beehive telecom?) are as redundant as possible, and are always looking for ways to improve redundancy, remembering cost/benefit. Not just involving paths (fiber, copper, radio) but also in the equipment. Fiber muxes have redundant equipment, optics and power supplies. Class 5 switches are redundant down to the line level, as well as being able to power a phone. Digital radio has path, equipment and power redundancy. If IOF is being served on copper, the caselines will have a protect span, which will auto switch upon a failure. Once the Central Office is large enough, fiber diversity is the rule. Even RT's' that are large enough can have fiber diversity. This is all done while the customer pays $15-30 a month (local service, maybe another $15 in long distance). However, the PSTN did not just appear one day, fully redundant. It has been being worked on for over a century, and is still a work in progress.
Inexpensive data, on the other hand, is a relatively new creature (maybe 10-15 years?), and is still a work in progress. Most DSLAMs aren't very redundant, except power. If a customer is buying data with a SLA, they are also paying at least 5 to 10 times more, but they get credits or refunds from outages. All of those prices are coming down, redundancy is improving, service is expanding, and customers are benefiting. | |
| 
Telly Boot
Premium
join:2002-05-15
Vancouver, BC
·TELUS
| Same at Whistler ski resort: five day outage Same thing at Whistler BC; mind you the terrain is rugged, however the lack of a backup is going to cause some re-evaluation of providers:
»www.piquenewsmagazine.com/pique/···low+1401
--
Dawn,n,The time when men of reason go to bed. (Ambrose Bierce.) | |
| badshot23
join:2004-10-05
Independence, MO
| Yay, people! It's stuff like this that makes me so incredibly happy I no longer work customer service for Time Warner Cable. I certainly got my fill of customers screaming mad insisting they pay $120 a month for this internet connection, want it back on right this instant, etc, all because some guy in a dump truck took out our fiber line down the road.
And then having to deal with the same batch of angry customers a week or two later when it's out again while making permanent repairs.
Ah, good times I tell ya. | |
| |
Fatal Vector
join:2005-11-26
| Re: Yay, people!
And, they had every right to scream at you at $120 a month, while you sat and spouted the company line over and over making them feel like the company (who you represented) didn't give a shit about them, which is what made them mad to begin with. | |
| jtel
join:2005-06-28
Bristol, RI
| Power Company Auger Chewed Fiber According to this story the outage was caused by the local power company drilling into the ground to replace a pole.
I think they did pretty good to get it repaired in a few hours. It would have taken an hour to get a crew out there after being told by the power company and being alerted by all the alarms going off.
"Phone Lines Working Again in Northcentral Wisconsin
Posted: 5:11 PM Jan 5, 2007
Last Updated: 6:42 PM Jan 5, 2007
Reporter: WSAW Staff
Verizon Public Affairs Manager LuAnn Novak tells NewsChannel 7 the telephone outage that had been affecting thousands of people across Northcentral Wisconsin has been fixed.
Long distance service was knocked out this afternoon from Boulder Junction to Marshfield.
Verizon also says the power company was using an auger to install a pole north of Stevens Point late this morning and drilled into a fiber optic cable.
Long distance calling and data transmission, such as credit card machines and the Internet, had been impacted.
A crew got the service working just before 5 p.m.
Sheriff's deputies in Marathon and Lincoln Counties say 911 service had never stopped working." | |
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Damage to Fiber Optic Lines Creates Complaints
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