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Mark Cuban: BitTorrent Sucks
Continues tirade against online video distribution
by Karl Bode 09:12AM Wednesday Jan 24 2007
Mark Cuban is trying hard to convince people (advertisers and investors, particularly) that broadband video and online distribution is not a threat to traditional broadcast networks (like his HDNet). Cuban insists broadband video is going nowhere and YouTube is doomed; his latest latest rant is against the limitations of BitTorrent and p2p in general. Torrent Freak dissects the Dallas Maverick owner's points one by one.

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MASantangelo
Premium
join:2004-07-19
Pittstown, NJ

I always enjoy

I always enjoy watching, reading, or otherwise seeing the death throes of an outdated belief system. With any luck his HDNet will be one of the first broadcast networks to poof - so he'll just shut up and go away. That would make me smile.

Toadman
Hypnotoad

join:2001-11-28
Ex Ohioan
kudos:1
Reviews:
·AT&T Midwest

1 recommendation

Re: I always enjoy

said by MASantangelo:

I always enjoy watching, reading, or otherwise seeing the death throes of an outdated belief system. With any luck his HDNet will be one of the first broadcast networks to poof - so he'll just shut up and go away. That would make me smile.
Your prediction will come true, the lack of HD networks is what keeps him on the map. I believe once more of the mainstream networks carry HD content (comedy central, TBS, WGN, sci-fi, etc), his network will be no more than a footnote in the history of HD.

HD net is worthless, and HDNet movies only occasionally will have a good movie
MASantangelo
Premium
join:2004-07-19
Pittstown, NJ

Re: I always enjoy

The only concern is whom he drags down with him.

peter_m
Premium
join:2005-07-13
Canada, QC

Re: I always enjoy

said by MASantangelo:

The only concern is whom he drags down with him.
Hopefully he will take his arrogant and loud mouth with him...
MASantangelo
Premium
join:2004-07-19
Pittstown, NJ

Re: I always enjoy

The problem is, the bigger they are the harder they fall.

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
said by Toadman:

HD net is worthless, and HDNet movies only occasionally will have a good movie
True... they were airing episodes of Star Trek Enterprise and they were even more unwatchable than before.
--
Only SHATNER is Kirk.

powerhog
Stinkin' up the joint
Premium
join:2000-12-14
Owasso, OK

2 recommendations

Cuban may be right

All you have to do is read the comments on yesterday's news to see that a great many people here at DSLR agree with him.

Nightfall
My Goal Is To Deny Yours
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI
Reviews:
·ooma
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Re: Cuban may be right

said by powerhog:

All you have to do is read the comments on yesterday's news to see that a great many people here at DSLR agree with him.
Cuban makes some very valid points. The analysis of his points also are very valid, but I thought I would put down some thoughts as well.

Conflicting Clients - On multiple torrent sites there are clients that are and are not allowed. Heck, some clients out there are starting to come out that cheat the system and ratios. The analysis on TorrentFreak really doesn't address that. He addresses file association, and maybe that is what Cuban meant. I didn't get that impression when I read Cubans article. Either way, both people are right here. Cuban about the differing clients and TorrentFreak about the file association.

End users don't understand how P2P works - I agree with Cuban here. I have had to teach a lot of people how P2P works. With all the different clients out there and torrent lists and trackers, it can be more challenging to common users. Heck, these users need to open ports up in their firewalls, which to common people can be a hastle. Look at Blizzards delivery system and the amount of questions in the WoW forum that just that gets alone. Once as people understand the system, then they look to get around it unless they are REALLY into sharing. Which is why you had people downloading like crazy using Kazaa and then shutting the client down if they didn't want to share. Ratios play a part in most torrent sites, and some people just don't like that. Either way, Cuban is right that most people don't know how it works. At the same time, TorrentFreak is right that once people learn the technology, they will use it. Heck, even TorrentFreak admits that some people download and then shut their torrent down to avoid uploading.

Bandwidth savings for end user and the problem with seeding - Cuban says that bandwidth can be a problem and TorrentFreak says that more and more people are going after unlimited plans. Lets rephrase here...More and more people who are broadband aficionados are asking for unlimited plans. The bulk of the people out there don't understand how it works and don't download a lot. If the email is coming in and their webpages are popping up, whats the problem? Not everyone is a broadband expert out there. As for uploading while downloading, TorrentFreak is right on that. Users just don't care while they are downloading. If the download gets completed though and they shut the torrent off, Cuban is right. You aren't going to be able to upload as fast as you download so if you download 4gb and you only upload 250 meg and shut the torrent off, how are other people going to get that file as fast as you did?

Torrentfreak is looking at the picture as if EVERYONE was a broadband expert. Cuban is looking at the real world picture. In my opinion, both have great points.

Conclusion: Both parties win.
--
My Domain
Nightfall's Hockey and Life Journal

powerhog
Stinkin' up the joint
Premium
join:2000-12-14
Owasso, OK

1 recommendation

Re: Cuban may be right

I was thinking about this from a "pipe" point of view... as discussed yesterday.

Regardless of the technology used to distribute the media, it seems that downloading a full-length HD movie at current broadband speeds will take hours, if not days, for the average user... unless, as also discussed yesterday, the media is cropped and compressed so that it's no longer "true HD". This is especially true when you consider that the un-washed masses (vs DSLR members) generally subscribe to lower speed tiers from their ISP.

If/when the average consumer's broadband speed (and invisible caps) increases to levels where HD content can be downloaded in "minutes", Cuban and others may run into problems. However, for the next few years, it's unlikely that streaming HD is going to be a threat to conventional "broadcast" methods.

karlmarx

join:2006-09-18
Chicago, IL

3 recommendations

Re: Cuban may be right

It's not a pipe, it's a series of tubes. And they send dump trucks down those tubes, carrying massive, massive amounts of stuff. And when those tubes get filled up, they have to build more trucks. And whose going to pay for those trucks? Well, companies like google and yahoo aren't. We need to tax those people who are sending the sand in the trucks down the tubes, because they are getting a free ride by leeching off the great and powerful corporations, which help pay the senator. So, downloading a movies is like pouring sand down the drain. You'll clog up the drain, and then the interweb won't work anymore. The average consumer uses about 100 pounds of sand per year. But over the next couple of years, we expect the consumer to buy a bigger bucket and pail, so they can use more sand. And since the movies are made up of many many sand pieces, the internet wasn't designed that way. If you wanted to get something, it would take forever, because too many trucks are carrying the sand down the tubes. The internet? Is that thing still around? Support your local republican senator, cause a moron is a terrible thing to waste.
--
Stick it to the MAN. Support your local torrent sites. Proudly providing 100mb of upstream for all your TV, Movie, and MP3 needs.

bklynite
Premium
join:2001-03-18
Brooklyn, NY

Re: Cuban may be right

said by karlmarx:

Support your local republican senator, cause a moron is a terrible thing to waste.
Idiocy is equally distributed on all sides of the political spectrum.
--
W-Train.com Webmaster | »www.bklynite.com

dadkins
Can you do Blu?
Premium,MVM
join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA
kudos:18

1 edit

2 recommendations

All the more reason ISPs(*ALL* OF THEM) need to get away from the asymmetrical speeds!

10/10 min. for every high speed freak - with caps that allow downloading(and uploading) multi GB files, or no caps at all, and the BT/mass distribution of HD would work!

Even the beloved FiOS is severly one sided when it comes to bandwidth.
My Comcast? GEEZ!
All the people that have $19.95 - 1.5mbps/???k DSL packages? Not going to happen!

Yeah! I occasionally bitch about wanting a REAL fiber pipe.
But you will also notice that I have the biggest, baddest line available *HERE* in Hercules, CA.
8mbps/768k(nominal, PB takes it to 30mbps download from a few sources)... aint gonna cut it for HD and BT.
I'm boned just like most of y'all.
Sucks, don't it?

How many of y'all have 10/10(or better) so you could make this actually work? Not too many I suspect.

16/2(highest Comcast available in select areas) would help, but it is still severly one sided. Sure, 10 sources with 16/2 lines would make it almost acceptable, but you or I will not be the only connection to this set of 10, so that sure puts a damper on that idea, huh?

Seeing as Comcast(A cable TV company) would not have it in their best interests($$$) to deliver the speeds needed or the content via broadband, not gonna happen. This would take away from their STB rentals and HD/cable subs.

Verizon is getting into FiOS TV.
It would not be in Verizons best interests(read cash-cow) to up their speed to realistic levels to make this work either.
Too much $$$ to be made from the STB rentals(are they rented?) and the advertising/bundled channels- just like Comcast and all the other cablecos.

So, what can we do?
--
Think outside the Fox... Opera

dvd536
as Mr. Pink as they come
Premium
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ
kudos:4

1 recommendation

Re: Cuban may be right

said by dadkins:

All the more reason ISPs(*ALL* OF THEM) need to get away from the asymmetrical speeds!

10/10 min. for every high speed freak - with caps that allow downloading(and uploading) multi GB files, or no caps at all, and the BT/mass distribution of HD would work!

Even the beloved FiOS is severly one sided when it comes to bandwidth.
FiOS could EASILY be symmetric but then you'd have BUSINESSES going on the res service and EVERYONE knows the biz sub gets raped royally. as far as SLA's, ask yourself how often fibre goes down.
--
You can never be too rich, too thin or have too much Bandwidth

dadkins
Can you do Blu?
Premium,MVM
join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA
kudos:18

Re: Cuban may be right

Then there are ISPs like Surewest... already providing(in Roseville) 10/10, and 20/20 Residential fiber for reasonable prices.
The 20/20 has no caps... so I'm told.

What could you/me/we do with a 20/20 uncapped fiber line?
A shitload more than we can now!

Who here can honestly compete with a 20/20 uncapped line?
Right this minute.
Remember, SW has had this for a while now...

I'm not talking about what your workplace has... your home residential connection.

^^^THAT is what I want!
I don't want to settle for a xx/x line and send the message that the masses think it is acceptable.
Screw that!

(Can't believe I'm posting this!) Cuban is right!
With what I have for a connection, BT won't fly for HD!

What about all you people?
Do y'all have the horsepower to actually make Cuban wrong?

Naw, I didn't think so...
--
Think outside the Fox... Opera

dvd536
as Mr. Pink as they come
Premium
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ
kudos:4

Re: Cuban may be right

said by dadkins:

Then there are ISPs like Surewest... already providing(in Roseville) 10/10, and 20/20 Residential fiber for reasonable prices.
The 20/20 has no caps... so I'm told.

What could you/me/we do with a 20/20 uncapped fiber line?
A shitload more than we can now!

Who here can honestly compete with a 20/20 uncapped line?
Right this minute.
Remember, SW has had this for a while now...

I'm not talking about what your workplace has... your home residential connection.

^^^THAT is what I want!
I don't want to settle for a xx/x line and send the message that the masses think it is acceptable.
Screw that!

(Can't believe I'm posting this!) Cuban is right!
With what I have for a connection, BT won't fly for HD!

What about all you people?
Do y'all have the horsepower to actually make Cuban wrong?

Naw, I didn't think so...
If i remember correctly, surewest has a 30GB cap or at least it used to.
--
You can never be too rich, too thin or have too much Bandwidth

dadkins
Can you do Blu?
Premium,MVM
join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA
kudos:18

Re: Cuban may be right

On the 10/10 service, yes.
On the 20/20 service, no. Or so I have been told. One user here stated this in a previous News item as well.

Don't know for certain. Surewest was just one fiber provider that offers it's customers ??/?? speeds. There are others.

I just wish they would all get off the stick and start pushing some use-able speeds to us.

It's nice to dream, huh?
--
Think outside the Fox... Opera
Poomfasa

join:2003-04-13
Rocklin, CA

1 edit

Re: Cuban may be right

Sigh, just to stop the spreading of misinformation...

Surewest bandwidth thresholds
1/1 = 30GB
10/10 = 75GB
20/20 = 150GB
50/50 = 400GB

AnonProxy
Premium
join:2001-05-12
" All you have to do is read the comments on yesterday's news to see that a great many people here at DSLR agree with him"

Prove s that there are still a lot of dumb people in the world. Beocming a member of DLSR still doesn't require an IQ test, which is sad.

Nightfall
My Goal Is To Deny Yours
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI
Reviews:
·ooma
·Comcast
·Callcentric
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1 recommendation

Re: Cuban may be right

said by AnonProxy:

" All you have to do is read the comments on yesterday's news to see that a great many people here at DSLR agree with him"

Prove s that there are still a lot of dumb people in the world. Beocming a member of DLSR still doesn't require an IQ test, which is sad.
Smooth....but not rich. :P
--
My Domain
Nightfall's Hockey and Life Journal

AnonProxy
Premium
join:2001-05-12

1 recommendation

Re: Cuban may be right


POB
Res Firma Mitescere Nescit
Premium
join:2003-02-13
Stepford, CA
said by AnonProxy:

Beocming a member of DLSR still doesn't require an IQ test, which is sad.
Neither does breeding, voting or getting an Internet connection.
--
The Toll


ColorBASIC
8-bit Fun
Premium
join:2006-12-29
Corona, CA

HDNet sucks

So there...

FFH5
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ
kudos:5

Cuban is right

Latest rant ( »www.blogmaverick.com/2007/01/11/···ologies/ ) is right. The P2P users just don't want the tap turned off on their copyright infringement machines.
--
--
My BLOG
My Web Page

karlmarx

join:2006-09-18
Chicago, IL

4 recommendations

Re: Cuban is right

Exactly! It's not the corporations responsibility to stop their users from being pirates. In fact, I often use over 50mb/sec on a continuous basis, downloading pirated HD Movies, etc. The town isn't responsible for what I am doing, nor should they be.

If they want to stop piracy, then the should PROTECT their content. Music CD's need DRM installed on them. DVD's need to be reprotected, with a new, secure DRM feature. I think the rise of the CD/DVD burners are the main reason people pirate. If we eliminate the CD/DVD Drives from computers, we would stop a LOT of the 'casual' pirates. In fact, the large hard drives (anything over 10GB), are the main reason people download from the internet at all. Let's pass a law stating that any hard drive over 10GB is illegal. Then, only pirates will have large hard drives, but the rest of us will be protected from those nasty criminals.

I support the right wing nut cases! Those evil P2P users MUST BE STOPPED. They are economic terrorist, like that evil Chavez dude! We need to use the US Army to crack down on all those malcontent evil doers in our country. I guarantee you, if a squad of rangers burst into little timmy's room while he was downloading the latest brittney spears CD, and they shipped timmy off to afghanistan for 'questioning', we would send a MESSAGE to those pirates, and piracy would stop for good !
--
Stick it to the MAN. Support your local torrent sites. Proudly providing 100mb of upstream for all your TV, Movie, and MP3 needs.

Maccawolf
Premium
join:2001-02-20
Hillsdale, NJ

1 edit

1 recommendation

Re: Cuban is right

LOL

Sarcasm is a wonderful tool, ain't it?

seant169

join:2003-07-21
Forney, TX
the internet is not the easiest way to pirate movies or cd's but lets people that don't know a flip about technology get free shi_!

Soon it will be illegal to show a dvd to invite our friends over for a movie party! they will want to know how many people will be watching it or How many tv's.

BS
Expand your moderator at work

spewak
R.I.P Dadkins
Premium
join:2001-08-07
Elk Grove, CA
kudos:1

Simon Cowell says..

Shut-Up!

seant169

join:2003-07-21
Forney, TX

Mark Cuban OLD

Mark has lost his niche in the market!

His intrests with HDNet clowd his tech like thinking. After audionet.com he ditched the internet and said just broadcast.

Too bad Mark Got Old! Stuck in his ways!

Maxo
Your tax dollars at work.
Premium,VIP
join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL

1 recommendation

His only valid point

that he didn't make is that the technology will need to mature some. P2P via Skype and The Venice Project work smoothly enough that the EU doesn't even know if it's P2P or straight from a server. None of his points accurately reflect these two applications. He brings up the latter and then drops it.
Also, his writing skills suck. I guess, since it's a blog, it's forgivable, but he could at least do a basic reading over his rants for clarity's sake.
I think Cuban is just upset that the internet is no longer doing things the way he thinks it should.
--
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Re: His only valid point

said by Maxo:

that he didn't make is that the technology will need to mature some. P2P via Skype and The Venice Project work smoothly enough that the EU doesn't even know if it's P2P or straight from a server. None of his points accurately reflect these two applications. He brings up the latter and then drops it.
If P2P becomes pervasive, the ISPs will all either have BW caps or start charging by the GByte.

P2P works right now because most people don't use much BW. If the BW usage goes up, somethings gotta give.

Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02
kudos:39

1 edit

1 recommendation

Re: His only valid point

With legitimate video stores launching using BitTorrent, they face the ire of network neutrality politicos.

In the past they could argue these were all pirates, but not much longer as mainstream video use soars.

The answer is to upgrade the @#$! network. Video and bandwidth intensive applications are not going away. I think companies that try to cheat their way around upgrading capacity will pay for it.....

Maxo
Your tax dollars at work.
Premium,VIP
join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL

1 recommendation

Re: His only valid point

said by Karl Bode:

The answer is to upgrade the @#$! network.
That's pretty much it. ISPs are going to have to get used to the idea that their customers are no longer looking to the internet just for web browsing. Once users start demanding more bandwidth (not larger pipes but more capacity on the network) and most users have a choice between cable and DSL (and hopefully another technology) ISPs will pony up.
--
"Padre, nobody said war was fun now bowl!" - Sherman T Potter

»www.cafepress.com/maxolasersquad

»maxolasersquad.com/

»maxolasersquad.com/network/ My DSL Network Guide

»myspace.com/mlsquad
russotto

join:2000-10-05
West Orange, NJ

1 recommendation

For a technology which sucks...

...and only works in tests and controlled environments, it's sure moving a lot of data in the real world.

Why does anyone pay attention to this idiot again?

fuziwuzi
Not born yesterday
Premium
join:2005-07-01
Atlanta, GA

Re: For a technology which sucks...

said by russotto:

Why does anyone pay attention to this idiot [Cuban] again?
Cuban is sort of the internet Paris Hilton: both are like a Slinky, not good for much of anything but would make you smile to watch them be pushed down a flight of stairs.

Michieru2
zzz zzz zzz
Premium
join:2005-01-28
Miami, FL

To Mark Cuban

"1. Conflicting Clients . There are a ton of clients, with the number growing all the time. Although they work on basically the same source code and protocols, they all install and operate as if they had exclusive access. They want to control the PC so that they are in charge of what resources are available. When multiple clients are installed on a PC, not only does that create confusion among users, its a "last installed, first in charge" approach. THat approach and lack of respect for other clients will lead to user configuration problems. Thats not going to work. At some point they get considered to be malware and the clients will get uninstalled "

Negative since a company who will be providing the distribution program the consumer/user will download there BT software in order to access the tracker. Although they do work mostly all the same "The Venice Project" actually runs on Azereus and in order to access the content available you need "Azereus" so this point is irrelevant and really dead unless the content provider allowed the customer to choose there own client which clearly will never be accepted on a "pay" service.

"2. End Users dont understand how P2P works, and once they do, they get concerned about giving up bandwidth. Most users dont know how to go in and edit the default settings. So even if they settle on a single client and are happy with just the content available on that network or to that client, they arent going to be happy about their banwidth being in constant use to save a content provider money ."

Customer service exists for a reason and that could be clearly stated in the contract, if customers are not willing to read there contracts that's there own fault and not the companies. Even with just a few seeders at 10K/sec your still getting overall good speeds from the main host itself so bandwidth is consumed by the tracker when needed as a low priority basis and that could be done in a torrent network.

"3. The P2P model of seeding is a HUGE problem for those using wireless broadband with bandwidth constraints or per bit or per minute costs. People are going to wake up and find that they owe Verizon, Sprint, whoever a lot more than they ever thought possible because they installed a client on their Laptops. That could lead to these networks blocking the protocol."

Completely false as nobody expects customers to be using a broadband video download service over a 1xRTT connection and 802.11b speeds are comparable to that of current dsl customers but in this day and age most customers have 802.11G and with the recently announced 802.11N this is hardly an issue. Also that's a provider problem not a service problem, but companies who offer "unlimited data" will give you just that. If customers did not bend over so much they would not be ass raping us with sand paper.

"4. There is a misconception that there is bandwidth savings for the end user. If you want to download a 1gb size file, 1gb of data will be delivered to your PC. There is no savings of bandwidth on the client side. In fact, the client is charged a bandwidth premium because after they have received the entire file, they are asked to particpate in the peering by delivering parts of the file to other users. "

But that also means the price of downloading video and content off the service will be cheaper in theory.

Also your claims of affecting the internet are lame at best, the transfer of video will forever e high unless a super efficient codec was used.

Don't talk crap out of your ass Mark Cuban if you don't know exactly how the crap work's. If you have concerns maybe if you talked to some of the people who run trackers and manage properly you will see your points are really mute.
--
The only limits we have are the one's we set ourselves.

POB
Res Firma Mitescere Nescit
Premium
join:2003-02-13
Stepford, CA

1 recommendation

Stick with what you know

I like the following comment on TF blog:

Its always amusing when some rich guy who has no idea how people live or what they do claim to know something about us. Somehow the money makes them stupid. Stick with what you know. At what point in his limo ride to work did this wisdome hit him?
He is absolutely right.
Eric Martin

join:2005-06-19
66308

All of these news articles from the SELF promoter......

Only helps his cause.

Free advertising.

HDNET=SUCKS.
Derfel

join:2004-06-06
Winnipeg, MB

MP3

I think I remember the 'conflicting clients' argument come around when the MP3 craze first began. The idea that there would be hundreds of different formats battling for supremacy, and therefore digital music would never take off.

Now, MP3 is a brand, not a format. Go figure. I believe "Torrents" will become the same.

CWTKCrash

@covad.net

1 recommendation

uhhh??

Who is this guy?
He bitches about everything!
Expand your moderator at work
clickie8

join:2005-05-22
Monroe, MI

Wishful Thinking on Cuban's Part

Real-time video over broadband *is* going nowhere. But non-linear television over broadband is probably going to be the way many people do get their television.

It's well established people like to time-shift, and the ability to get around the network's "appointment" television is a major buy decision for DVRs. And people continue to want ala carte television despite the reluctance of cable and satellite providers to give it to them. I think the shift in television will happen with providers like Vongo and the AppleTV, where people pay for what they want to watch. It's downloaded at a trickle and when it shows up, you can watch it.

This is a beginning industry and it's going to upset the status quo. Cuban, the rest of the content providers and producers are simply not understanding how the consumer is beginning to decide how to take their entertainment. Cuban's words are simply wishful thinking that something *like* Bittorrent does not eat his lunch. Bittorrent probably won't amount to much more than what it is today. But I wouldn't apply that to Vongo or AppleTV or any other method of sending TV to the masses over the internet.

lt_wentoncha
Red6

join:2002-05-12
000000

Mark Cuban is the king...

...Of hyping something up, hawking it for billions, and letting the investor get stuck with a worthless property. I mean, just look at Broadcast.com. So when he says YouTube will die off and BitTorrent sucks, I'm inclined to believe him, and I predict he'll sell HDNet for billions whereupon it will wither and die in the hands of other investors.
--
Arrogant People Suck.
AMW
FBI's Most Wanted
Interpol's MW
tmc8080

join:2004-04-24
Brooklyn, NY
Reviews:
·ooma
·Optimum Online
·Verizon FiOS

can't monetize that's why..

If someone can't profit through drm restricted content, then it sucks in the eyes of content producers.. but this be the way it is.. too bad in this and the next generation broadband HDNET will be distributed over p2p networks and cuban makes $0 profit, boo hoo.

Doctor Four
My other vehicle is a TARDIS
Premium
join:2000-09-05
Dallas, TX

Re: can't monetize that's why..

He's thinking just like the pigopolists in the RIAA and MPAA,
whose real motivation behind DRM is to perpetuate an
antiquated business model that squeezes every last cent
out of consumers.

If it isn't making him money, he wants it dead and gone.
--
"The trouble with computers, of course, is that they are very sophisticated idiots." - Doctor Who (from Robot)

Scottww

@swbell.net

at least

at least we have a good basketball team if nothing else...
short09

join:2006-07-21

......

i download 1 or 2 dvdr movies a day
each movie takes me 1 hour or more to dl
after its done dl i just shut off the program