 
Jerm
join:2000-04-10
Richland, WA
edit:
February 2nd, @04:38PM
| Go figure... BT was bound to lose this one. If nothing else, it's always been easy to detect BT traffic just because of all the connections it makes.
The big question I have:
Why is it always these Canadian Cable ISPs that trottle?
In the good ol' USofA we need to get some Net Neutrality laws on the books so if my Charter ever decides to pull something like this I can whoop their @ss in court.
They should really be calling it "filtered" Internet access. | |
|
 | |
| | |
| | | 
Snickerdo
Premium
join:2001-02-28
Niagara Falls, ON
 ·Cogeco Cable
| Re: Go figure... said by TigerLord  :Fixed it for ya ! His ignorance, stupidity and bad case of the "morans" didn't even dignify his post with a direct reply.
--
Bigot - Someone that has won an argument with a Liberal.
Yes, I CanChat. Can You? www.fiberal.ca | |
|
| | | | |
| | 
AnotherAnon
@172.21.x.x
| STFU. A big reason why CDN ISP's are first to throttle these protocols is cuz it's not really illegal to download digital content here; so therefore damn near everyone does it regularly. When you get into the States people are so fearful of the **IA's that most people abstain. | |
|
| | |
Snickerdo
Premium
join:2001-02-28
Niagara Falls, ON
·Cogeco Cable
| Re: Go figure... said by AnotherAnon :
A big reason why CDN ISP's are first to throttle these protocols is cuz it's not really illegal to download digital content here; so therefore damn near everyone does it regularly. When you get into the States people are so fearful of the **IA's that most people abstain. You, sir, deserve a gold star. You hit the nail right on the head. Though, I would argue, that it happens in the USA just as often, only that users are afraid to admit the legal liability of using P2P software and therefore won't speak up when something "illegal" works poorly.
--
Bigot - Someone that has won an argument with a Liberal.
Yes, I CanChat. Can You? www.fiberal.ca | |
|
| | | | eco
Premium
join:2001-11-28
Wilmington, DE | Re: Go figure... I'm from the US. I don't know a single person who doesn't pirate. Try again. | |
|
| | | | |
Snickerdo
Premium
join:2001-02-28
Niagara Falls, ON
·Cogeco Cable
| Re: Go figure... said by eco :I'm from the US. I don't know a single person who doesn't pirate. Try again. I'm sure you and all kiddies get home from school every day and are right on to your favourite torrent sites. Can you say the same of every Tom Dick and Harry, from the mothers to the 85-year old Grandfathers? Can you say that 70% of the population has high-speed Internet to actually make use of such wonderful services as bittorrent? I just tried again, looks like you need to do some work.
--
Bigot - Someone that has won an argument with a Liberal.
Yes, I CanChat. Can You? www.fiberal.ca | |
|
| | | | | | 
John Galt
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Oceanside, OR
edit:
February 2nd, @09:07PM
| Re: Go figure... said by Snickerdo :...looks like you need to do some homework. Father stands at son's door...yelling.
"Did you get your HOMEWORK done yet??!!"
"I'm downloading doing research online."
"You need to GET OFF THE DAMN INTERNET and finish your homework!!"
Father walks away, mumbling to himself "When I was a kid..." mumble, mumble...
--
A is A | |
|
| | | | | | eco
Premium
join:2001-11-28
Wilmington, DE
| As of Sept. 2006 over 76% of internet subscribers in the US were broadband subscribers. Maybe I can't say 70% of the total population, but then again, my country has 10 times as many people as you with a MUCH larger rural population percentage. Our broadband subscriber total does however equal to 2 and a half times your total population.
Oh, and it's a shame so much of that 70% of your population has to put with with bandwidth throttling and data caps that we don't have to deal with. | |
|
| | | | | | |
Snickerdo
Premium
join:2001-02-28
Niagara Falls, ON
·Cogeco Cable
edit:
February 3rd, @02:03AM
| Re: Go figure... said by eco :Oh, and it's a shame so much of that 70% of your population has to put with with bandwidth throttling and data caps that we don't have to deal with. Hah, but see, you have no proof to show that Canadians have to deal with data caps and throttling exclusively, and just the same you have no proof that Americans aren't dealing with this already. In fact, to the contrary, I regularly see people bitching and moaning about 'hidden' Comcast caps - is not Comcast the largest cable company in the USA with the most cable subscribers, in a similar market position as Rogers is in Canada? Looks like you lose there, buddy. Your argument, for the most part, is all conjecture. That in itself throws your 'argument' to the wind. Claiming that poor ISP practises don't affect the US is stupidity at its finest.
Last I had read, our adoption rate among Internet subscribers was over 80%, with 60% of the total overall population using broadband. We had the same level of broadband penetration back in 2003 that the USA has now. It's just the way the game is played, and we're starting to tap out our subscriber base. Bitch and moan all you want, but when it comes to availability we're in a better position than the USA and as a result more users have made the switch. Our rural populations are almost identical - USA is 21%, Canada is 20%, so you lose that argument right there, and I highly recommend you do some research into the demographics of each country. Both countries are expected to top out at around 80% based on the number of users who 'want' Internet access. That's just the way it is. No need to get into a pissing match about it.
--
Bigot - Someone that has won an argument with a Liberal.
Yes, I CanChat. Can You? www.fiberal.ca | |
|
| | | | | | | | |
| | | 
MysticGogeta
The Robot Devil
Premium
join:2005-03-14
League City, TX
clubs:
·Comcast
| said by AnotherAnon :
STFU. A big reason why CDN ISP's are first to throttle these protocols is cuz it's not really illegal to download digital content here; so therefore damn near everyone does it regularly. When you get into the States people are so fearful of the **IA's that most people abstain.
I'm not afraid I download every day and I dislike Canada because I thought there people I met there were extremely rude.
--
Team Discovery-Join the fight | |
|
| | | |
Snickerdo
Premium
join:2001-02-28
Niagara Falls, ON
·Cogeco Cable
| Re: Go figure... said by MysticGogeta :I'm not afraid I download every day and I dislike Canada because I thought there people I met there were extremely rude. You of all people, being from Texas, should probably put your money where your mouth is and keep quiet when talking about labelling an entire culture/region just because of the way a few people think/act. Way to stereotype people because of a bad experience, tex.
--
Bigot - Someone that has won an argument with a Liberal.
Yes, I CanChat. Can You? www.fiberal.ca | |
|
| | | | |
MysticGogeta
The Robot Devil
Premium
join:2005-03-14
League City, TX
clubs: | Re: Go figure... First impressions leave a impact you of all people should understand that until I'm proven wrong.
--
Team Discovery-Join the fight | |
|
| | | | | |
Snickerdo
Premium
join:2001-02-28
Niagara Falls, ON
·Cogeco Cable
| Re: Go figure... said by MysticGogeta :First impressions leave a impact you of all people should understand that until I'm proven wrong. If we're going to stick to the sterotypes...
Why the hell should I believe anything a stupid ignorant Texan says? If you brought your Texan superiority attitude with you to Canada, you deserved everything you got. Don't come back, we don't want you here.
... did you enjoy that? No? Exactly. Smarten up.
--
Bigot - Someone that has won an argument with a Liberal.
Yes, I CanChat. Can You? www.fiberal.ca | |
|
| | | | 
TOPDAWG
Premium
join:2005-04-27
Midland, ON | Yeah Canada sucks why must I live here  Cold taxes are way to high crap health care system. | |
|
| | | | | 
JammerMan79
Premium,VIP
join:2004-05-13
Prince George, BC
| Re: Go figure... uhuh...
New york state has pretty much the same weather as the toronto region, where are you in canada?
"crap health care system"? Could be worse.. could have a system that leaves people "out in the cold" so to speak. You've got more than 40 million people without health insurance.
--
I may work for, but do not necessarily represent the views and beliefs of TELUS Communications. | |
|
| 
TK Junk Mail
Go ahead, make my day
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Margate City, NJ
clubs:
·Comcast
| Re: Go figure... said by Jerm :BT was bound to lose this one. If nothing else, it's always been easy to detect BT traffic just because of all the connections it makes. The big question I have: Why is it always these Canadian Cable ISPs that trottle? In the good ol' USofA we need to get some Net Neutrality laws on the books so if my Charter ever decides to pull something like this I can whoop their @ss in court. They should really be calling it "filtered" Internet access. Net neutrality will not stop ISP's from blocking protocols. Net neutrality laws will only apply to discrimination "by site or company". If a protocol block is applied evenly to all companies it will pass legal muster. But feel free to sue away. I hope you are very rich in order to pay the lawyer.
--
--
My BLOG
My Web Page | |
|
| | |
| | | RayW
Premium
join:2001-09-01
Layton, UT
clubs:
 ·XMission
| Re: Go figure... said by thender :Another TCH anti-fair post. Yeah, but for once he is totally right in what he stated. (unless you posted on the wrong post of his)
--
I am not lost, I find myself every time. | |
|
| | | |
TK Junk Mail
Go ahead, make my day
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Margate City, NJ
clubs:
·Comcast
| Re: Go figure... said by RayW :said by thender :Another TCH anti-fair post. Yeah, but for once he is totally right in what he stated. (unless you posted on the wrong post of his) For once? I am almost always right. It is just that most here don't like the answers, even when they are correct. 
--
--
My BLOG
My Web Page | |
|
| | | | | karlmarx
join:2006-09-18
Nashua, NH
·Fairpoint Communic..
| Re: Go figure... Right? Hardly... If you READ the net neutrality laws, they specifically PREVENT the ISP from blocking any LEGAL APPLICATION. That could be web browsing, that could be ftp, that could be bittorrent.
"Just as telephone companies are not permitted to tell consumers who they can call or what they can say, broadband carriers should not be allowed to use their market power to control activity online."
If THAT's the definition of net neutrality, then it most certainly means the ISP CANNOT block bittorrent, any more than the ISP can block HTTP.
»www.google.com/help/netneutrality.html
--
Stick it to the MAN. Support your local torrent sites. Proudly providing 100mb of upstream for all your TV, Movie, and MP3 needs. | |
|
| | | | | |
Snickerdo
Premium
join:2001-02-28
Niagara Falls, ON
·Cogeco Cable
| Re: Go figure... said by karlmarx :If THAT's the definition of net neutrality, then it most certainly means the ISP CANNOT block bittorrent, any more than the ISP can block HTTP. They're shaping, not blocking. Big difference legally.
--
Bigot - Someone that has won an argument with a Liberal.
Yes, I CanChat. Can You? www.fiberal.ca | |
|
| | | | | |
John Galt
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Oceanside, OR
| said by karlmarx :If THAT's the definition of net neutrality, then it most certainly means the ISP CANNOT block bittorrent, any more than the ISP can block HTTP. Most providers have provisions that DO allow them to take measures to prevent "damage" to their networks.
As biobob states, BT is a nasty creature when it runs uncontrolled. That is what providers bitch about...they could care less that it is "BT".
--
A is A | |
|
| | | | | | xsiddalx
join:2005-03-11
Chicago, IL
·AT&T Yahoo
·AT&T DSL Service
| said by karlmarx :Right? Hardly... If you READ the net neutrality laws, they specifically PREVENT the ISP from blocking any LEGAL APPLICATION. That could be web browsing, that could be ftp, that could be bittorrent. Please provide a link to the "net neutrality laws". All I saw on the google link was speculation of what might happen.
said by karlmarx :If THAT's the definition of net neutrality, then it most certainly means the ISP CANNOT block bittorrent, any more than the ISP can block HTTP. ISPs are not common carriers in the sense that telephone companies are. ISPs can do pretty much whatever they want to within the bounds of the contract that you agreed to.
I like your thinking to the extent that I should be able to run my own web server and email server...but both are blocked on the ATT network. Then again, my terms of service state I can't run a server..grrr. | |
|
| | | | | | | 
Shortbus
Premium
join:2006-01-21
clubs: | Re: Go figure... Unless something has changed recently, ATT (former SBC) allows customers to set up servers on DSL connections. The TOS restriction for running servers was dropped years ago. | |
|
| | xsiddalx
join:2005-03-11
Chicago, IL
·AT&T Yahoo
·AT&T DSL Service
| Net neutrality will not stop ISP's from blocking protocols. Net neutrality laws will only apply to discrimination "by site or company". If a protocol block is applied evenly to all companies it will pass legal muster. But feel free to sue away. I hope you are very rich in order to pay the lawyer.
To be fair, it's difficult to saw what net neutrality laws will apply too, if they ever exist.
That said...people need to read their contracts when they sign on for a year or two with any ISP, especially with an ISP affiliated with a local utility. Just because they don't enforce a contract term today doesn't mean that they won't tomorrow.
Funny how we all run around in a fantasy land about what we consider "internet access".
Perhaps we, as customers, need to define "internet access" and compare it to the contracts we committed to! Should be telling at the least! | |
|
|
Snickerdo
Premium
join:2001-02-28
Niagara Falls, ON
·Cogeco Cable
| said by Jerm :Why is it always these Canadian Cable ISPs that trottle? Oh please, it happens in the USA just as much, and it certainly does not happen with every provider in Canada. It's just that...
a) Studies have shown that Canadian users are more tech-savvy and take notice of stuff like this.
b) Canadian users expect top-notch service, and don't consider poor performance 'the norm' and will bitch and moan quite loudly until it is fixed.
c) Canadian users don't live in fear of the MPAA and RIAA sending them a lawsuit to ruin their life, nor do they consider sharing files a 'moral' issue, and therefore are much more open about the way they use P2P programs and how they perform.
c) We know how to voice our concerns in such a way that people take notice.
Anyone who thinks that this isn't happening in the USA is specific to only Canadian is more naive then one would originally assume.
--
Bigot - Someone that has won an argument with a Liberal.
Yes, I CanChat. Can You? www.fiberal.ca | |
|
| | |
|
SueTHEMall
@bell.ca
| said by Jerm :The big question I have: Why is it always these Canadian Cable ISPs that trottle? Agreed. The thing is in Canada, people don't sue like they do in the states. We have no balls to stand up to the big CO's, and we are sheep that accept whats thrown to us.
However, seeing that we have rights here that protect what we can download which is different than in the states. I can see this slapping Rogers upside the head if people got together and made a class-action.
But alas, we don't sue em all here like in the states. | |
|
| Troyus
join:2005-06-26
Richmond Hill, ON
| I just noticed this tonight...went to download a torrent, and the speed was messed! I usually get about 500-700KB/s and this time, it started off fast...then dropped to 150KB/s! And that was the highest I could get it...usually around 90KB/s now
I just installed SecureIX, so I'm seeing how that will help.
Regarding the previous post about Sympatico, when did they impose 30GB caps? I never heard of that...could you link me? | |
|
| |
checkThem
@bell.ca | Re: sad but true... Just check their web site... they are hiding it in the small print now
All new users = 30-gig cap | |
|
| | | Troyus
join:2005-06-26
Richmond Hill, ON | Re: sad but true... found it, that's definitely not good heh. | |
|
thender
Glamour Profession
Premium
join:2004-05-16
Staten Island, NY
| Good job at alienating any potential customers. a) Good job wasting money on all of the hardware to do this.. how about using it to make a network that doesn't suck?
Before anyone responds - does anyone in their right mind think an ISP that throttles all bittorrent traffic, not just JAMITALLTHEWAYUPMYASSXXX.avi, is not bad?
b) The more they fight this, the more publicity they receive as a weakass ISP. Do I want to signup for the ISP that doesn't care what I do, or for the one that limits, caps, or downright stops me from using legitimate services just because that would mean I'm using my connection?
Like the AT&T with the 100 GB/month cap, or OOL with their random capping, I'm sure Rogers has some stupid silly high bandwidth connection to flash on banner ads, commercials, and brochures to make up for their crippled network, and people won't leave until they find out the hard way.
Rogers is a scam..
--
The Problem With Music.
Our Rationale
Time to rewrite the DMCA. | |
|
|
See 6 replies to this post |
|
ownage134
join:2005-05-30
GTA
edit:
February 2nd, @04:35PM
| SecureIX doing the job for now... It's a pain having to login into secureix just for BT and logout (kinda gave that up after the 56k days) but it gives decent 80-200KB/s speeds enough for my needs. If it weren't for rogers low pings I would of switched to bell. | |
|
| 
pulp39
Premium
join:2003-01-28
Ottawa, ON | Re: SecureIX doing the job for now... Why not just stay logged in? I didn't notice any surfing slowdowns etc.. | |
|
| |
ownage134
join:2005-05-30
GTA | Re: SecureIX doing the job for now... Secureix yields higher pings and I play online games. | |
|
| | |
pulp39
Premium
join:2003-01-28
Ottawa, ON | Re: SecureIX doing the job for now... Gotcha, we have a gamer! | |
|
LaZ3R
Premium
join:2003-01-17
Waterloo, ON
clubs:
·Rogers Hi-Speed
| Yes... Rogers is a scam, but they're also a f***ing monopoly, what the hell other choice to the majority of Canadians who want internet access have to resort to?
There's so little option to choose from, and especially in my area where I either have Bell, or Rogers and that's it.
--
Life is a game of blackjack. You keep playing until you bust. | |
|
|
See 6 replies to this post |
|
patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
| time for something new Its time for steganograph and auto updating in BT, if everything looks like a AIM Direct IM or Voip call or Youtube request, or web browsing or email (POP3) The moment you wrap a jpg header around it, they cant touch it without disabling your entire browser, and then they arent selling anything. Just scrambling the data so it doesnt make sense doesnt work anymore, since most people use "known" protocols. | |
|
| 
Combat Chuck
Too Many Cannibals
Premium
join:2001-11-29
Erie, PA
| Re: time for something new said by patcat88 :The moment you wrap a jpg header around it, they cant touch it without disabling your entire browser, and then they arent selling anything. No, they can still easily take care of it because:
a. BT looks and acts like BT no matter what you wrap it in.
b. They don't have to block BT to take care of it all they have to do is throttle it and if they throttle it the right amount you likely won't notice much of an impact in 90% of the other stuff that uses most peoples connections.
--
Early to rise, early to bed;
Makes a man healthy but socially dead. | |
|
| | openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Navarre, FL | Re: time for something new Yep, about the only way you're really going to "hide" BT is if you encapsulate the session in a VPN. But then you've got to have a central hub for all of the VPNs to connect to which kind of goes against the whole premise of BT in the first place. | |
|
| | patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
| said by Combat Chuck :said by patcat88 :The moment you wrap a jpg header around it, they cant touch it without disabling your entire browser, and then they arent selling anything. No, they can still easily take care of it because: a. BT looks and acts like BT no matter what you wrap it in. b. They don't have to block BT to take care of it all they have to do is throttle it and if they throttle it the right amount you likely won't notice much of an impact in 90% of the other stuff that uses most peoples connections. Then change how many connections BT makes, and have BT make connections in bursts to simulate image loading. Tracker talking and inter peer talk can be encapsulated in AJAX JSON. The transfer algorithems, only upload for short bursts really fast to other peers, then disconnects, making it seem like a email or file upload rather than long sustained slow sending like of p2p. It can all be messed with, the only block would be having whitelists of "acceptable" sites that arent BT clients, and then you just opened national censorship can of worms. | |
|
| | |
Combat Chuck
Too Many Cannibals
Premium
join:2001-11-29
Erie, PA
edit:
February 2nd, @11:50PM
| Re: time for something new said by patcat88 :Then change how many connections BT makes, and have BT make connections in bursts to simulate image loading.... The transfer algorithems, only upload for short bursts really fast to other peers, then disconnects, making it seem like a email or file upload rather than long sustained slow sending like of p2p.... If you're going to do that then you might as well not use BT as you're not going to get decent speeds. It takes a while to get a torrent set up and going, you cannot just establish a connection and go, it won't work.
--
Early to rise, early to bed;
Makes a man healthy but socially dead. | |
|
dslextreme
Premium,VIP
join:2001-02-23
Canoga Park, CA | Can we get some net-neutrality now? I know this is Canada... but here is a real world example. | |
|
| 
RadioDoc
Sortofadog
Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-05-11
Chicago, IL
·AT&T Midwest
| Re: Can we get some net-neutrality now? Filtering BitTorrent is hardly a net neutrality issue. In fact it's no different than an ISP filtering outbound port 25 or SMTP traffic, which hardly anyone here is whining about.
--
Toolmaster of La Grange.
Save the Pacific Northwest Tree Octopus! | |
|
| |
dslextreme
Premium,VIP
join:2001-02-23
Canoga Park, CA
| Re: Can we get some net-neutrality now? Port 25 filtering is done to reduce spam. As matter of fact we allow our users to uncork that if they do not get complaints.
Sorry, but bit torrent filtering is simply abuse of the net-neutrality principle. You should be allowed to use your bandwidth any way you like. | |
|
| | |
RadioDoc
Sortofadog
Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-05-11
Chicago, IL
·AT&T Midwest
| Re: Can we get some net-neutrality now? Sadly, you run an ISP too. This is precisely why nobody who counts gives a shit about "net neutrality".
There is NO DIFFERENCE between filtering SMTP traffic and BitTorrent traffic. You are too cheap to build a proper network so you hamstring BitTorrent, and are also too cheap (and lazy) to go after spamming customers so you just shut off everyone's port 25. Very nice.
What's next, NNTP?
--
Toolmaster of La Grange.
Save the Pacific Northwest Tree Octopus! | |
|
| | |
Snickerdo
Premium
join:2001-02-28
Niagara Falls, ON
·Cogeco Cable
| said by dslextreme :Sorry, but bit torrent filtering is simply abuse of the net-neutrality principle. You should be allowed to use your bandwidth any way you like. The exact same principle applies to Port 25 filtering. As long as the ISP is the one providing you with the service and dictating the terms of use, they don't owe you squat in that regard. If you don't like it, you can vote with your pocketbook and find another provider or start up an Internet Service Provider of your own.
And no, I don't like the idea of BT throttling, but an unthrottled network is something they certainly do not 'owe' to us. Read your AUP next time you sign up for an ISP and stop complaining about something you were forewarned about.
--
Bigot - Someone that has won an argument with a Liberal.
Yes, I CanChat. Can You? www.fiberal.ca | |
|
| | | |
RadioDoc
Sortofadog
Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-05-11
Chicago, IL | Re: Can we get some net-neutrality now? Who are you talking to? Me? Him? You know he runs an ISP, right? | |
|
davidbrown
join:2005-05-31
Toronto, ON
·Bell Sympatico
| hmmmmm The real issues for us is not bt its our providers.
We have only two for example in toronto rogers and bll.
There our other dsl ones but they get it from bell so it ends up the same in the end.
Both are basicly a joke for the most part and way behind what you get in the states or elsewhere.
Rogers is badly oversold and outdated and bell is badly run and outdated.
So we end up with bt being choked and caps to keep the whole unstable mess running.
Bt isn't going away and both rogers and bell are going to have to figure out a better solution to things beyound what there doing now.
This is made more important with so many companies and industries using bt now.
We need more providers and then we shall see some serious service for our money but not tell then. | |
|
|
ClassAction
@bell.ca
| Re: hmmmmm Whats more interesting is that as Rogers killed encrypted BT, while Bell-Sympatico (the only competition to Rogers) adds a BandWidth cap of 30-gigs.
Now both being part of the Canadian Association of Internet Providers (changed to CATA now), and do this at the same time, one has to wonder if their is some *fixing* going on with Canadian internet.
Either price fixing or bandwidth fixing, and/or cost of. Seems to much of a coincidence for both COMPETITORS to do this at the same time. | |
|
freedloader
@bell.ca
|  Rogers cutoff inet for game torrent dload!
I'm in Toronto Canada. Is this legal? I dont see how it could or should be. im not selling or reproducing this software, in fact i havent even tried it yet. besides, i dont see how aquiring something that someone has provided to the world via the world wide web for free as illegal on my part. my reasoning behind this is, for example i create a copywrightable work of art, then publish it online, i am therefore surrendering the piece to anyone willing to view it. once their eyes set sights on it, can i then sue anyone who may have viewed it? computers after all must make a copy of the image onto the local hard drive before anyone views it.
please provide advice if any | |
|
|
See 7 replies to this post |
|
Snakeoil
Prehende uxorem meam, sis
Premium
join:2000-08-05
Mentor, OH
| So If I get throttled, do I get a discount? If I pay for for a service and get less then what I pay, wont that give the right to file a complaint with the FCC and BBB? Even possible the chance of sueing the company?
I can understand that their backbone can only have X amount of traffic. If that means I get a reduced rate of service, then my mothly bill should get a discount.
Better yet, maybe if enough of us pull the plug on imternet service all together, they'll [the service providers] will get a clue.
--
Say no to the IRS.. Yes to the Fair Tax! This beer is for: 464th bat. 98th div. Combat engineers. Hillside Ave schenectady NY. | |
|
| |
Encrypted BitTorrent Party Over?
Re: Go figure...