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Professor Urged To Stop Using/Teaching Tor
Academic freedom and Internet anonymity...
Paul Cesarini, a professor at Bowling Green writes of his run-in with University network administrators over his use of the Tor network. Cesarini was told he should neither use nor teach about Tor on campus. Tor, as this user thread explores, runs user traffic through a series of encrypted links (called onion routers) in the hopes of retaining user privacy. Some P2P users like to use Tor, though that runs contrary to the project's intention, saps bandwidth and generally annoys everyone else. Those interested should also check out the Tor website and/or TorPark.
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moonpuppy (banned)
join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD

moonpuppy (banned)

Member

And I thought Universities are bastions of liberal thought..

Guess only when it suits them.

Fight the power....unless it's the university.
bmn
? ? ?

join:2001-03-15
hiatus

bmn

Re: And I thought Universities are bastions of liberal thought..

Ahh, there's a huge difference between University administrators and the faculty... To administrators, "liberal thought" or academic freedom are just buzzwords because they are management. Management doesn't operate on the same plane as the faculty. It is no surprise, then, that the professor is getting heat from an administrator.

FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

1 recommendation

FFH5

Premium Member

The Univ network must control its costs ...

... and legal liabilities by blocking P2P use. Tor can be used to bypass University controls on P2P. If the professor can't follow employer guidelines, fire his ass.

vpoko
Premium Member
join:2003-07-03
Boston, MA

vpoko

Premium Member

Re: The Univ network must control its costs ...

said by FFH5:

... and legal liabilities by blocking P2P use. Tor can be used to bypass University controls on P2P. If the professor can't follow employer guidelines, fire his ass.
Do you know whether he's tenured? That would create a contractual obligation to only terminate him for cause. Did he actually violate the acceptable use policy, or is it vague and doesn't cover what he's doing, as he claims? This may not be a simple case of an at-will employee violating an employer's rules.

nixen
Rockin' the Boxen
Premium Member
join:2002-10-04
Alexandria, VA

nixen

Premium Member

Re: The Univ network must control its costs ...

said by vpoko:
said by FFH5:

... and legal liabilities by blocking P2P use. Tor can be used to bypass University controls on P2P. If the professor can't follow employer guidelines, fire his ass.
Do you know whether he's tenured? That would create a contractual obligation to only terminate him for cause. Did he actually violate the acceptable use policy, or is it vague and doesn't cover what he's doing, as he claims? This may not be a simple case of an at-will employee violating an employer's rules.
Does all that matter? In FFH5 See Profile-land, the twin IP Gods of MPAA and RIAA must be worshipped and obeyed. Teaching someone how to use tools that might be abused in ways that could anger those Gods is to be punished.

Oh, wait: that pretty much wipes out a CS/CE department, doesn't it?

-tom

bolt
End of the line DSL sucks.
Premium Member
join:2003-11-11
Charlestown, IN

bolt to FFH5

Premium Member

to FFH5
said by FFH5:

... and legal liabilities by blocking P2P use. Tor can be used to bypass University controls on P2P. If the professor can't follow employer guidelines, fire his ass.
As spouted by a corporate shill who does not understand how the academic environment works. For academics, there are no employer guidelines such as you see in the corporate world. There are faculty guidelines and handbooks, but I would bet that the newer technology problems are covered in only 10% of those. For someone to teach and research, a certain amount of latitude has to be given. Read the article. The professor did NOT violate any university policies, as those policies were written well before there was any kind of P2P. His IT people were a little heavy handed by telling him what he should and shouldn't teach in class. Here's an idea. Why don't they go back and do their job and leave the faculty member to do his, teach his class. Any time academic integrity is dictated by policy, you have bigger problems than having 100 students learn about TOR.

Mike
Mod
join:2000-09-17
Pittsburgh, PA

Mike

Mod

Re: The Univ network must control its costs ...

A university is still a business.

vpoko
Premium Member
join:2003-07-03
Boston, MA

1 edit

vpoko

Premium Member

Re: The Univ network must control its costs ...

said by Mike:

A university is still a business.
Universities intentionally give up certain rights that an employer would have for the purpose of promoting academic freedom. They codify this in the university's charter, policies, and in giving tenure to faculty.
viperlmw
Premium Member
join:2005-01-25

1 recommendation

viperlmw to Mike

Premium Member

to Mike
said by Mike:

A university is still a business.
A private university may be a business, but public schools are quasi-governmental entities. The primary goal of a business is to generate revenue and profit. A public university's primary goal is to educate it's students, and has typically been placed to educate the citizens of a particular state, using public and private funding. Governments and their entities are NOT businesses, but mechanisms put in place, in the case of the USA, by the citizens to provide public services. My daughter is attending a public university, and she is a CITIZEN, not a customer. So stop being so pro business, with that itchy firing finger, and let the man do his job.
caco
Premium Member
join:2005-03-10
Whittier, AK

1 recommendation

caco to bolt

Premium Member

to bolt
So now I guess unless you agree with the majority opinion on BBR you get branded a corporate shill. TCH's comment makes perfect sense but like always we can't let "THE MAN KEEP US DOWN."

After reading the professor's posting It seems like he will most likely think a little about what the detectives said during his next class when he is lecturing on TOR. The professor even states ; "That was why the police had come to see me. They told me that only two people on our campus were using Tor: me and someone they suspected of engaging in an online scam. The detectives wanted to know whether the other user was a former student of mine, and why I was using Tor."

It would have been nice to know if the "other" was actually a student or not? I'm assuming the professor left the answer to that in limbo for a reason.

Looks like IT rep. and detectives were just doing their job , no one was flown to Guantanamo or ordered to stop teaching on a particular subject.

If the professor has a follow up I'm sure it will be an interesting read.

bolt
End of the line DSL sucks.
Premium Member
join:2003-11-11
Charlestown, IN

bolt

Premium Member

Re: The Univ network must control its costs ...

said by caco:

Looks like IT rep. and detectives were just doing their job , no one was flown to Guantanamo or ordered to stop teaching on a particular subject.
If they could have stopped him, they would have. Or at least that's what I get from the article. The only reason they can't stop him is that I pretty sure school policies won't allow the local IT person and security to dictate course content. The only real grounds they would have to actually stop him is if he were violating a law or an academic policy. That's why the "asked" him. I certainly would not like to see him succumb to the wants of IT just because they don't want him to teach about TOR. Actually, by doing this, they have made TOR more visible, especially on their campus. I wouldn't be surprised if they had 20 users by the end of the day.

karlmarx
join:2006-09-18
Moscow, ID

1 edit

karlmarx to caco

Member

to caco
Maybe the professor left the answer in limbo, because there was NO PROOF OF A CRIME. The ONLY people who even have a right to ask that question is the police. And the professor would be wholy within his rights to refuse to answer the question.

The original poster can't stand the idea that someone would actually stand up to "THE MAN", for in his worldview, the only people who question authority are terrorists and malcontents.

If the bush regime had sent people, you could be pretty sure the professor would have been sent on a 'vacation' to cuba, where he could relax in a cell with other so called 'terrorists' for mates.

The IT rep was way out of line. The use of TOR, bittorrent, or any other technology is well within the rights of ANY student or faculty at a university. Unlike the whacko worldview, I see a university as a place where people are taught how to think, not a place where they are force fed the corporate line about the evils of TOR.
caco
Premium Member
join:2005-03-10
Whittier, AK

1 edit

caco

Premium Member

Re: The Univ network must control its costs ...

said by karlmarx:

Maybe the professor left the answer in limbo, because there was NO PROOF OF A CRIME. The ONLY people who even have a right to ask that question is the police. And the professor would be wholy within his rights to refuse to answer the question.

The original poster is a right wing nut case, everyone knows that. To him, blowing up abortion clinics is a good thing, and should be supported. He can't stand the idea that someone would actually stand up to "THE MAN", for in his worldview, the only people who question authority are terrorists and malcontents.

If the bush regime had sent people, you could be pretty sure the professor would have been sent on a 'vacation' to cuba, where he could relax in a cell with other so called 'terrorists' for mates.

The IT rep was way out of line. The use of TOR, bittorrent, or any other technology is well within the rights of ANY student or faculty at a university. Unlike the whacko worldview, I see a university as a place where people are taught how to think, not a place where they are force fed the corporate line about the evils of TOR.
I'll ignore all the crap in the 1st couple of paragraphs and deal with the only one that should really be commented on.

The IT representatives job is to maintain and protect the university's network and if TOR,bittorent or any other technology is or has the possiblity to cause problems ie. massive congestion, then Mr. IT is definitely doing his job by bringing that to the attention of the professor.

He is what the professor says.

"Their job is to protect the network that allows me to do my job: to teach classes that are mostly or entirely online, and to conduct research. If they weren't here as the first or even only line of defense against the unscrupulous elements of our technological society, my university would cease to function. It's as simple as that."

The professor is actually being very practical about the matter.

vpoko
Premium Member
join:2003-07-03
Boston, MA

vpoko to karlmarx

Premium Member

to karlmarx
Talk about overreacting. I've disagreed a ton with TCH, but to say he supports blowing up abortion clinics? Do you care to back that up?
druber
join:2000-04-11
Stow, MA

1 recommendation

druber

Member

Re: The Univ network must control its costs ...

are you kidding? from a guy whose handle is 'karlmarx'? pretty clear he's not going to be particularly centrist...

vpoko
Premium Member
join:2003-07-03
Boston, MA

vpoko

Premium Member

Re: The Univ network must control its costs ...

said by druber:

are you kidding? from a guy whose handle is 'karlmarx'? pretty clear he's not going to be particularly centrist...
Someone can be extreme and not make up crazy, libelous accusations. I've met honest communists.

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium Member
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

pnh102 to karlmarx

Premium Member

to karlmarx
said by karlmarx:

If the bush regime had sent people, you could be pretty sure the professor would have been sent on a 'vacation' to cuba, where he could relax in a cell with other so called 'terrorists' for mates.
Proof please? Where is evidence that any American citizens have been forcibly deported to Cuba?

karlmarx
join:2006-09-18
Moscow, ID

karlmarx

Member

Re: The Univ network must control its costs ...

Yaser Esam Hamdi
James Yee
Jose Padilla

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium Member
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

3 recommendations

pnh102

Premium Member

Re: The Univ network must control its costs ...

said by karlmarx:

Yaser Esam Hamdi
James Yee
Jose Padilla
Silly boy. I asked you to provide proof that this "regime" is forcibly deporting people to Cuba.
Abdullah al-Muhajir (Padilla's real name) was never deported to Cuba.

James Yee worked at Club Gitmo in Cuba but was never deported there.

Yaser Esam Hamdi was not deported to Cuba, although he was jailed there after being captured in Afghanistan but was transferred to jails in the USA after it was discovered he was a US citizen.

yock
TFTC
Premium Member
join:2000-11-21
Miamisburg, OH

yock to FFH5

Premium Member

to FFH5
said by FFH5:

... and legal liabilities by blocking P2P use. Tor can be used to bypass University controls on P2P. If the professor can't follow employer guidelines, fire his ass.
In my opinion, this is a situation where the university is stifling the use of a great tool to curtail one unsavory activity. Tor has many other uses than surreptitious illegal P2P use. Tor shouldn't be banned for it's potential to do harm any more than P2P software itself.

One could argue that, along with the professor's Tor education, he should provide an education on responsible use.

nixen
Rockin' the Boxen
Premium Member
join:2002-10-04
Alexandria, VA

1 recommendation

nixen

Premium Member

Re: The Univ network must control its costs ...

said by yock:

Tor shouldn't be banned for it's potential to do harm any more than P2P software itself.
It would be sort of like arguing that Chemistry shouldn't be taught because someone might use the knowledge to make illegal drugs, bombs or chemical weapons.

-tom

Thaler
Premium Member
join:2004-02-02
Los Angeles, CA

Thaler to FFH5

Premium Member

to FFH5
said by FFH5:

... and legal liabilities by blocking P2P use. Tor can be used to bypass University controls on P2P.
So...basically, have the university just turn off the internet access, right? After all, any computer that connects to their network is also potentially a P2P threat. May as well do the one course of action that guarantees no P2P use.

Sounds stupid, no? Yes, TOR can be used for P2P (although that's got to be god-awful slow), but people can also distribute illegal files over HTTP/FTP connections too. There are plenty of legitimate uses for the TOR product/network as well. Punish the people who use technology illegally - don't restrict technology for potential illegal use.

Michieru2
zzz zzz zzz
Premium Member
join:2005-01-28
Miami, FL

Michieru2 to FFH5

Premium Member

to FFH5
Let's make this come from a different approach.

I had to record a live event yesterday, a string quartet to be exact at some local church in south miami beach. I have and was given the key's to the school to literally take out and put back any equipment as I needed to help them with there events.

The principal finds it crazy that a student with physical access to the school at 11PM at night can simply load and unload expensive audio equipment in his minivan.

Say the principal where to come and say "I am not allowing you to do this and forbid it". How can the people I am training to do live recordings at events around the local community which I am doing free of charge for the sake of education and helping out the people who live here; Work without any audio equipment?

So your saying my professor should get fired because he gave me access to the expensive audio equipment? Because it's not within the guidelines?

Education is not a company, nor is it some form of limit or set time to do things. Our education system is already fucked up how it is and simply adding more regulations on people who talk shit right out of there ass because they only look at the moral and "lawful" way and yet refuse to look at things some different way because there still stuck up on the idea that law rules the mentalility of individuals.

I can tell you right now your dead ass wrong, because you are nobody who judge's what should or not should be tought at school's nor have you even spoken that professor on why exactly is he teaching it.

It's like learning about security yet they block you from knowing what's a virus or it can't be tought because computer viruses are being demostrated to students and the damage they cause to a machine. Just like saying a gun can't be fired but they simply tell you it's "dangerous".

If I ever have a child I am gonna make sure I am straight up with him even if he does not like it. Because we all don't like crap in our lives but that does not mean we should not learn from them.

So before you open your law book, think about what your saying TCH.

GercekSeytan
Absinthe makes the heart grow fonder.
Premium Member
join:2001-10-19

GercekSeytan to FFH5

Premium Member

to FFH5
said by FFH5:

... and legal liabilities by blocking P2P use. Tor can be used to bypass University controls on P2P. If the professor can't follow employer guidelines, fire his ass.
I agree with you about usage. However, teaching/discussing it...

kyramilan
join:2006-11-26
Pensacola, FL

2 recommendations

kyramilan to FFH5

Member

to FFH5
said by FFH5:

... and legal liabilities by blocking P2P use. Tor can be used to bypass University controls on P2P. If the professor can't follow employer guidelines, fire his ass.
Actually, how about firing the 1,000s of lazy ass professors that DON'T teach and have their GRAD STUDENTS do it! And the morons that teach the Holocaust never happened, support terrorists, and are basically sexual predators (at -withheld to protect the GUILTY- University, I'd say half the teachers, both men and women, were having affairs with students)!
ross7
join:2000-08-16

ross7

Member

Re: The Univ network must control its costs ...

said by kyramilan:

said by FFH5:

... and legal liabilities by blocking P2P use. Tor can be used to bypass University controls on P2P. If the professor can't follow employer guidelines, fire his ass.
Actually, how about firing the 1,000s of lazy ass professors that DON'T teach and have their GRAD STUDENTS do it! And the morons that teach the Holocaust never happened, support terrorists, and are basically sexual predators (at -withheld to protect the GUILTY- University, I'd say half the teachers, both men and women, were having affairs with students)!
Helps to raise the grade point average, and keep that federal aid money flowing!

POB
Res Firma Mitescere Nescit
Premium Member
join:2003-02-13
Stepford, CA

POB

Premium Member

Let Legal Figure It Out

When the shit hits the fan and if Cesarini loses his position, a judge will ultimately decide whether he violated anything.

cdru
Go Colts
MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN

cdru

MVM

Re: Let Legal Figure It Out

It would never come to that (or at least it shouldn't). The network administrator is only doing his job (protecting the network) and the detectives were doing theirs (tracking down a scam). Both the admin and the detectives were not in positions to make judgements as to what was or wasn't violating a university policy. That would be left up to department chairs or other university officals. The guys may have had "best intentions" in mind when they said that there could be a violation, they were mistaken, particularly on the idea of teaching the concept of Tor in the classroom. No department chair would ever bow to an influence like what they were trying to push.

The one thing that they might have a little ground on is the installation of Tor. Depending on what the university policy was on installing software on computers. While I'm sure that they don't have a policy that is based on an effort to stifle academic freedoms, they may have one for keeping in compliance with licensing issues. If that is the case, it was probably more of a no-no and might get a slap on the wrist, but definitely not fired.

POB
Res Firma Mitescere Nescit
Premium Member
join:2003-02-13
Stepford, CA

POB

Premium Member

Re: Let Legal Figure It Out

said by cdru:

It would never come to that (or at least it shouldn't).
If Cesarini loses his job over this matter then it most assuredly would come to that.
brianiscool
join:2000-08-16
Tampa, FL

brianiscool

Member

TOR!

I always use Tor and will continue to use it everywhere I go

TOPDAWG
Premium Member
join:2005-04-27
Calgary, AB

TOPDAWG

Premium Member

hello mama

Hm this program sounds nice. So if I use can private tracker's still see my upload and download ratio?

Seems if everyone used this you'd be much safer on BT.

••••
cevans59
Premium Member
join:2003-08-14
Smithton, IL

cevans59

Premium Member

Couple of points

As a former network admin at a college let me chime in here.

Point 1. It is not the IT departments job to tell a professor what they can or cannot teach.

Point 2. It sounds like the professor installed an unauthorized piece of software on his office computer which would of violated policy at my old place of work.

This could of been better handled if the professor would of went to the IT department first and told them of his intentions.

There will always be conflicts between security and academic freedom, but reasonable people can find a middle ground. We use to set up isolated networks so that network security could be taught without affecting the entire system.
brianiscool
join:2000-08-16
Tampa, FL

brianiscool

Member

Tor

I like using Tor at work cause they can not monitor my data and it's encrypted : )

packetpusher
Premium Member
join:2005-03-22
Oakville, ON

packetpusher

Premium Member

Snooping

I just sat through a presentation made by University researchers about how they use live network traffic to base reports on spam on. I guess Tor would be a bit of a bee in their bonnet. Why would anyone get mad at someone using Tor unless they wanted to see your traffic?

Middieman
Eschew Obfuscation
join:2001-02-05
Elkins Park, PA

Middieman

Member

aww common...

What gripes could a university possibly have with people blasting right through any packet sniffing firewall with Tor?

-=[Middie]=-