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MrChupacabra
Premium
join:2003-03-26
Florida | Re: Repost? Fiber is the holy grail of this site. I'm surprised 'all hail fiber' hasn't appeared at the top of the site yet to be bluntly honest.
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People want economy and they will pay any price to get it. - Lee Iacocca | |
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Rick
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-06
Waterbury, CT
clubs: 
| I'm sorry but.. this whole thing is such an ill conceived idea on the part of this community.
Millions in legal fees just to fight for this.
125 Million to build a network.
Interest on top of it all..because, of course, they'll have to actually pay the bond holders for use of their money.
All before this community makes one single red cent in order to begin to pay for this.
This is a community that according to prior reports..has Cox and Bell South services available to them. These are not companies that sit idle while technology passes them by. Here in Ct. Cox is one of the most progressive cable co's there is, offering their users up to 15,000/2000 hsi service along with advanced cable tv services as well.
Ultimately, this community taking this on for themselves isn't going to be giving their residents anything they don't already have, or wouldn't have in the future.
This isn't a community (that I know of anyway)..that is so rural as to never have any reasonable options before it.
And so, what exactly does this community hope to achieve by this? To be more competitive? Save a few bucks on service?
This is an enormous undertaking for a community, coupled with wasteful spending, in order to try to save a family 5.00 bucks a month, if it ever even amounted to that.
Broadband today from virtually any provider, cable or telco, isn't expensive. While some may moan about prices being 30.00 or 50.00, the fact of the matter is just a few short years ago, dial up internet by the hour amounted to hundreds per month some people were paying...including me.
My point is, when all is said and done, what REALLY will this community be able to save their residents after paying for all this buildout? It's hard to imagine it being very much at all versus what these other providers already charge.
When I think about my community here in terms of what the local government should provide..I think of decent roads..maintained public parks and other areas..a good police and fire dept..helping to care for and elevate the community and those less fortunate living in it.
I think about attracting businesses and jobs. And NEGOTIATING with companies to provide the best..most cost effective services possible.
I don't look at them to be my ISP. To spend my tax dollars on building out a network when there are already choices here from cable and telco. And, because there is already HSI cable here, the likes of comcast who provides up to 20,000k with powerboost..it's hard to imagine any publicly owned fiber network really being able to provide something more. And, I certainly wouldn't expect them to be able to do it for very much less money than comcast already charges..particularly seeing the huge upfront costs that the city would have to recoup.
This all comes down to PRIORITIES. And, I can't help but to wonder what the population of that city was ever thinking in allowing or wanting this to happen.
125 MILLION dollars..plus interest..to build what is already there...being offered reasonably enough by private companies already.
They have either lost their minds completely..or this whole thing was railroaded through by special interests with too much to personally gain.
Did these residents ever stop to consider how much..PER PERSON..this is going to cost them?
They will NEVER recoup that in savings.
Never.
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The Coyote captured the RR! Roadrunner Rick is now Comcastic! | |
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nixen
Rockin' the Boxen
Premium
join:2002-10-04
Alexandria, VA
 ·Cox HSI
 ·Speakeasy
| Re: I'm sorry but.. said by Rick  :This is a community that according to prior reports..has Cox and Bell South services available to them. These the same kinds of reports that, if there's one eligible household in an entire zipcode, the area is considered to be served?
said by Rick :They will NEVER recoup that in savings. Never. And, perhaps it was less about "savings" than it was in ensuring that all of their citizens had the opportunity to get fibre-based service.
-tom
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"Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government's purposes are beneficial. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well meaning but without understanding." -Louis D Brandeis | |
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ropeguru
Premium
join:2001-01-25
Bridgeport, WV
clubs:
 ·VOIPo
| Re: I'm sorry but.. said by nixen :And, perhaps it was less about "savings" than it was in ensuring that all of their citizens had the opportunity to get fibre-based service. -tom Or even more so, just to get some kind of service with the exception of dial-up.
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FWD#: 223611 | |
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Rick
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-06
Waterbury, CT
clubs:
| It most certainly is LESS about savings. Here's a rough look at the numbers.
Population of Lafayette...110,257 people.
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lafayette,_Louisiana
Cost of this project (legal fees paid + the 125 Million buildout cost)..128.5 Million.
COST PER Every Man, Woman and child living there.. NOT EVEN INCLUDING INTEREST OVER THE YEARS= $1165.48
Consider then that per household, there's probably 3 to 4 people living there. That puts the cost per household at something like 4600.00.
And now, what kind of savings could they offer versus someone say like Cox? 5 Bucks a month?
60.00 a year per household? You are talking about an entire lifetime and then some just to be able to even recoup the PRINCIPLE on this investment.
And, we haven't even STARTED talking about the interest.
To even begin to comprehend those numbers..find a financial calculator and plug in 128 million x 20 or 30 years at 6% or so.
And, what you'll arrive at is the ASTRONOMICAL cost of this..never to be recouped investment.
And, furthermore, you have to realize that this assumes everyone even TAKES the service there. What about the households who get to foot the bill who don't even want it nor sign up for it.
This community is insane to proceed with this.
Absolutely insane.
It simply doesn't offer anything critical that isn't already there. It's a luxury that a local government simply can't afford with so many other pressing matters on their plates.
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lafayette,_Louisiana
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The Coyote captured the RR! Roadrunner Rick is now Comcastic! | |
| | | | Ahrenl
join:2004-10-26
North Andover, MA
 ·Verizon FIOS
| Re: I'm sorry but.. Since they're using municipal bonds the interest will be ~3%. The principal will be recouped through payments over 20-30 years, just like any other investment. Plus they should have cost savings from city/town use. If they're able to sell services to their local businesses, AND attract more businesses then it will pay for itself even faster.
At 3% interest over 20 years it will cost 3.86m a month which is 35.99/mo per person. That's without municipal savings from schools, police, fire, and additional benefits a fully wired municipal service can bring. That's also without ANY businesses signing up, or accounting for any new businesses coming to the area because of increased opportunity the system will provide.
I still don't think they should bother acting as the ISP to residences, but that's just my opinion. | |
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Rick
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-06
Waterbury, CT
clubs:
| Re: I'm sorry but.. The yield on 20 to 30 year triple A rated municipal bonds currently stands at 4.40 ~ 4.47% per bloomberg.com
»www.bloomberg.com/markets/rates/
Sorry, but offhand I can't find any calculators to calculate 128.5 million at that rate over 20 to 30 years.
And, you can't just look at this per person. Per household is what needs to be considered because that's what you'd then compare to whatever cox or bell south currently charges.
There is NO WAY that this is worth it to this community as a whole.
We are talking about a community with people earning 1/2 the national per capita income (only 20k per year versus national average double that)(source..wiki article).
To incorporate such wasteful, unnecessary spending into their lives is outrageous.
Again, at issue here is not a community with no broadband today. And certainly not a rural area with a 100k + population..and double that amount in the metro area.
It's already served by Cox and Bell South.
There is NO savings here..just huge debt piled on people who earn 1/2 the per capita income of the rest of the country.
This community has MUCH more pressing needs than this.
Whomever is behind this initiative is railroading this through the community. If citizens saw these actual numbers of what this is costing them, whether they even want the service or not..they'd probably pass out.
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The Coyote captured the RR! Roadrunner Rick is now Comcastic! | |
| | | | | hottboiinnc
ME
join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH | I think they would be better off to build the network and allow other providers to lease it. Especially the ISP part. Kind of what CLICK-Network did. | |
| | | | | | Ahrenl
join:2004-10-26
North Andover, MA
·Verizon FIOS
| Re: I'm sorry but.. said by hottboiinnc :I think they would be better off to build the network and allow other providers to lease it. Especially the ISP part. Kind of what CLICK-Network did. I agree, but I think just building the network themselves is more important. Each community has allowed the multi-billion dollar telco's build their networks on public ROW's and make billions for their shareholders. Now, when they have repeatedly refused to provide the new services the community wants, it's time to go it on their own. AT&T/others don't seem to realize that they're at the mercy of each of these communities, especially as the cost to build these networks continues to plummet. The non-competing private network were necessary back when people didn't understand the important of communications systems. I know I spend $200's a month on communications now (cell, cable, internet, phone) and I have the cheapest packages on every service. With a lot of people doing the same, you don't need national companies to subsidize the capex (not that they really did in the first place, even if they do now). | |
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kyramilan
join:2006-11-26
Pensacola, FL
| It's Louisiana - The Home of the the Bribed and the Corrupt (Governors go to jail almost as much as Congressmen do).
Now, New Orleans has the added distinction of being the murder capital of the world. Of course, if the cops weren't busy looting plasma TVs, no that was someone else; the cops all left. One resigned amid a bribery scandal (the head cop). The Mayor finally figured out: "Even a fool is made to be wise if he keeps his mouth shut." | |
| | gene32
join:2004-05-03
Reynoldsburg, OH
·ViaTalk
1 edit | Rick, are you for real?
They wouldn't have had to pay all these legal fees if Cox and Bell South were forward thinking companies. Why didn't those 2 companies wire up the city with fibre years ago? Why, because they like screwing people over and raping them and not providing the best data service possible. I only hope/dream/wish that these type of muni-fibre projects take off all over the place in every single city/state!
Sorry that your stock in Cox and Bell South will take a hit as more and more people leave them in droves and run to fibre. | |
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Rick
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-06
Waterbury, CT
clubs:
| Re: I'm sorry but.. Let's be clear about that which you're suggesting.
Every single home in the community of lafayette, LA..
population 100k or so, should pay something along the lines of 4200.00, which doesn't even include the interest on the debt that will be paid over 20 to 30 years...
Just so they can have FTTH.
They will pay that amount WHETHER OR NOT they even subscribe to the service or whether they even care to have internet service at all.
This will not relieve them of paying for the service monthly either. They will pay that IN ADDITION TO whatever monthly fees wind up being assessed for the monthly service.
They will pay that just for the "privilege" of being able to say that their local government now owns and operates it's own system...putting the local government in the business of being an ISP.
How much money they will save versus paying for service from Cox or Bell South remains to be seen, but do you REALLY think it will be more than maybe 5.00 per month or so when it all washes out? In fact, undoubtedly many who subscribe to Bell Souths lower dsl tiers now will wind up paying quite a bit more.
But, Let's say it's 5.00 on average. It winds up saving them maybe 60.00 per year.
Wow..its sure going to take them a LIFETIME to ever recoup that 4200.00 + investment at that rate..eh?
With interest,it will be THEIR lifetime..PLUS their kids lifetimes as well.
But, understand what it is that they want. This isn't a rural community with no Broadband. Already, Cox and Bell South is there..with broadband. To the planners..apparently that service isn't good enough..despite the fact that in many areas Cox already runs at 15,000k.
What I ask you is this. How in the world is this ever worth it to the people in this community when you break out these numbers?
What exactly would fiber to the home offer them that isn't there already, or will be in the not too distant future with the cable and telco buildouts?
Is this something that is really needed in the face of one of the POORER communities in these united States..in fact..a community who's income is barely 1/2 the per capita income average of the rest of the U.S. ?
What I am saying is that this community has a LOT better things they could be spending their money on.
FTTH is a luxury they can NOT afford.
Whomever is ramming this through has not explained the facts to this community..and broken out these numbers in the way that I have.
Or people would be running to their local leaders and demanding they stop this fiasco now dead in it's tracks.
As for my owning any stock in any cable co...or telco..that just isn't the case.
What I am is responsible when it comes to finances and what people and communities can afford.
And this is one luxury that relatively poor Louisiana city, simply can't afford. Nor does it offer any compelling reasons to try to one up the incumbent cable and telco's.
Perhaps what these companies were doing in fighting them on this issue wasn't just for the sake of their own hides..but also helping to look out for what was right for this community as well.
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The Coyote captured the RR! Roadrunner Rick is now Comcastic! | |
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houstontarge
Target
join:2005-01-08
Houston, TX
| Re: I'm sorry but.. Rick, it's really touching to see your deep concerns for the poor people in Louisiana. You mention several times the pre capita income being so low, it's obvious you have done some research on the subject. Did you also look at the cost of living? It's a hell of allot cheaper here in the south you know? And why would someone from CT. really care so much about what mistakes a poor southern Louisiana community might make that would never effect you in anyway what so ever? If you lived in the area you could have voted against it (yes there was a vote & yes it DID pass), and had your opinions heard by all concerned! And that is the problem here as I see it, THOSE CONCERNED, citizens who voted on and passed this, then being sued and dragged through the courts for YEARS by monopolies that refused to provide the type services this community wants and is willing to pay for. I have to say I REALLY question your motives on this subject It's their fight, let them fight it!  | |
| | | | Ahrenl
join:2004-10-26
North Andover, MA
·Verizon FIOS
| They're not using municipal revenue bonds? I doubt that, which means only the subscribers will be paying the debt, because only the revenue from the service can be used to pay it. Many, many, many municipal bonds work this way. As I've said before even if EVERYONE pays the debt it's only $36 a month INCLUDING the interest over 20 years. Just the principal, using your own numbers, is 4,200 / 20 = $210 a year over 20 years, or less than $20/mo.. sounds horribly expensive.. I'm sure their cable bills would never increase $20's in 20 years.. oh wait.. | |
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stomp357
join:2003-04-13
Lake Charles, LA
·Suddenlink
1 edit | said by Rick :Let's be clear about that which you're suggesting. Every single home in the community of lafayette, LA.. population 100k or so, should pay something along the lines of 4200.00, which doesn't even include the interest on the debt that will be paid over 20 to 30 years... Just so they can have FTTH. You don't even live near there. What do you care if a community across the country is thinking forward, and not in reverse like Cox, & at&t is. You must be the guy who thinks 2400baud is good enough. | |
| scooper
join:2000-07-11
Youngsville, NC |  If it's not worth it for the Muni to do it...
It's the community's bond money, and they should be allowed to do what they want to with it. | |
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MrChupacabra
Premium
join:2003-03-26
Florida
·Bright House
| Re: If it's not worth it for the Muni to do it... said by scooper :Then tell me Rick - WHY WOULD THE INCUMBENTS DO IT ? Or rather why DIDN'T they do it ? It's the community's bond money, and they should be allowed to do what they want to with it. Keep in mind that my family comes from this state, and my immediate family left for a -very- good reason. The state is ran by idiots. That's the open and shut of it.
Can they do it if the population wants to do it? Sure. This just means part of your federal taxes will end up being redirected to the area due to budget short falls next time they need something that could have been paid for by the money wasted on this project.
The government is a constant loss as far as finances go. There is no product produced to recoup costs. The reason for that though is the government should cover those items that the private sector cannot or will not touch.
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People want economy and they will pay any price to get it. - Lee Iacocca | |
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Daarken
Rara Avises
join:2005-01-12
Cajun Countr
·Cox HSI
·Suddenlink
| Re: If it's not worth it for the Muni to do it... kyramilan, your off base and definately have your facts wrong.
Rick, your some east coast guy who spews abunch of crap for nothing in this case. Save your breath here. The majority of the citizens of Lafayette voted for this to happen and it passed. The 2 incumbent broadband providers who had been SLOW to upgrade their systems for years (and still are, only in a few areas does BellSouth Support its 6mb DSL service, and the Lafayette area only has the 12mb connection that came online last October). Look at the cost of having these services shall we.
For cable its $55/month +$40 min cable service (You HAVE to have atleast Basic to have broadband).
DSL its $59/Month +$30 min phone service (You HAVE to have a minimum basic phone service.)
Lets look at another factor.
Even though the legal fees cost Lafayette several million dollars, it saved them even more due to the reduction of equipment costs!! (Thanks BellSlow and Cox).
LUS has indicated that it can provide Broadband, Phone and Television for $80/month. I see that as a HUGE savings.
One reason why Lafayette is doing the FTTH project is because it is using it to attract more buisness and the population required for it.
Rick, do you go and post about how much it is a waste of time and tax payer money in every single thread that is created when a City indicates that it wants to offer broadband to its citizens, whether its free or paid?
Another thing to mention is that LUS is considered to be one of the best and economical utility companies in Louisiana.
My brother lives in lafayette, and has Cox's HD service, however the quality of that service is rather poor and limited. I have seen HD cable provided service in the Denver area, and it BLOWS away the service that Cox has.
So as far as I am concerned, I am glad that Lafayette is looking towards the future and has taken the initiative to provide a service that is in demand, and that the other companies proclaim they will get there. But honestly the Lafayette market gets poor product and poor service.
One last thing, I do agree that Louisiana is ran currently by a bunch of ignorant morons. Hopefully that will change with the next election.
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www.pointofexistence.com | |
| gabrielpc
join:2002-01-04
Kaneohe, HI
·Hawaiian Telcom
| Hmm Can we say "Co-op"? And heck - who cares what it costs, cheaper isn't necessarily better. I'd pay twice as much as I do to Time Warner to a company that actually even just pretended to care about my needs as a consumer.
Hey - Kudos to that community that actually got off their asses and did something - they don't just bitch and do nothing.
I for one thing this should serve as a wake up call for corporate America. It's time to become responsible to those that are you customers. | |
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Court Decides Lafayette Is Good To Go
