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story category Hams Demand FCC BPL Test Data
ARRL files FOIA request on Manassas tests
(old news - 11:14AM Wednesday Feb 28 2007)
tags: fcc · BPL
Hams continue to insist that broadband over powerline (BPL) deployments in Manassas, Virginia, are causing local interference. The FCC investigated and dismissed all complaints, though local RF engineers don't believe the FCC's tests were very thorough. The ARRL has now filed a Freedom Of Information Act (FOIA) request asking the FCC to turn over documents related to the testing in order to confirm their validity. The ARRL and other hams are also pushing for a law that would force the FCC to more seriously investigate BPL interference concerns. The group says FCC chief Kevin Martin has been touring the country promoting BPL using flawed, industry-provided data.

Related:
  1. The FCC Gives Love to Powerline Broadband
  2. Hams Say Martin Misrepresenting BPL
  3. Hams Want FCC To Actually Study BPL Before Praising It
  4. FCC Ignoring BPL Interference?
  5. The FCC's Split Personality
  6. FCC, Hams Spar Over Powerline Broadband
  7. Court Agrees with ARRL in FCC BPL Issue
  8. Broadband Over Powerline (BPL) Stumbles
Forums » Hams Demand FCC BPL Test Data
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AnonProxy
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ß

Ham is up!

These nerds are going rule the world!
RayW
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Re: Ham is up!

said by AnonProxy See Profile :

These nerds are going rule the world!
No, Hams do not want to rule the world, too many noses to wipe.
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John Galt
Spricket24
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Re: Ham is up!

said by RayW See Profile :

No, Hams do not want to rule the world, too many noses to wipe.

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Phattieg

join:2001-04-29
Jacksonville, FL

said by AnonProxy See Profile :

These nerds are going rule the world!
Umm, pardon me for pointing out something, but the nerds are the computer/internet users. The radio guys aren't really nerds. Either way, I hope they get their info, and prove the FCC is a bunch of idiots with thumbs up their asses..
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rf_engineer

join:2003-08-04
USA

Re: Ham is up!

Radio guys aren't nerds? We write software, argue about what semiconductor devices are best, love the smell of solder and warm vacuum tubes, track satellites, and put big pieces of aluminum and steel that rotate in the air. I think that qualifies us as nerds

tenbase

join:2000-07-19
Alexandria, VA

Re: Ham is up!

Underneath my shelves full of DC-to-daylight radios is a rack cabinet of BSD servers...if that ain't nerdy, I don't know what is!
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AnonProxy
Proxy of Anon
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ß

Holy crap who are you kidding...ever see a HAM fest?
Ever see a guy with 15 different radios and antennas in his car?

You have to go WELL out of you way to be a HAM dork. All you have to do to use a PC is go to freaking Walmart.

PC's are pretty much appliance level consumer products for the unwashed masses...HAM radios are just for the unwashed.
moonpuppy

join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD

Why hide the evidence?

Maybe your study is as flawed as your broadband penetration figures.

juyride

@optonline.net

Re: Why hide the evidence? nope

“In 2005, worldwide unit shipments of broadband powerline equipment surpassed 2 million, and the market has reached an inflection point this year that points only upward. Worldwide annual shipments for broadband powerline equipment will exceed 200% growth in 2006.” ~ In-Stat, Aug2006

Broadband over Power Lines, also known as the "third wire" for delivering broadband communications to users, has been gaining traction on a global basis. BPL has been hampered by concerns over interference and the lack of standards necessary to drive it forward. However, recent movements by various global standards bodies promises to boost the market and questions of BPL-caused RF interference are being resolved satisfactorily. Since, more than 100 trials in 40 different countries worldwide have confirmed the viability of BPL technology that’s building momentum.
moonpuppy

join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD

Re: Why hide the evidence? nope

Back to the anonymous posting?


rf_engineer

join:2003-08-04
USA

Re: Why hide the evidence? nope

said by moonpuppy See Profile :

Back to the anonymous posting?


Looks like his exclamation mark key broke
RayW
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You forgot to specify that much of that equipment is probably for the low bandwidth and non-interfering control systems that have been in use for years, not the polluting consumer grade BPL.
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W1RFI

join:2003-05-12
Burlington, CT

I am not at all sure that the viability of BPL has been completely confirmed to date. In those cases where electric utility folks are willing to share information with me, I am hearing reports that range from "it did work well" to "we had trouble keeping it going from day to day." In Shelton, CT, I experienced that firsthand, as the BPL system that was there was connected to a WiFi hotspot in a local coffee shop, and the system would stop working from minute to minute.

One BPL integrator has put up a blog showing the history of their getting it working:

»www.sciremc.com/HighSpeedInterne···ult.aspx

I am also not sure that I would use the term momentum. The United Power Line Council has maintained a map of BPL locations. Here is the 2006 map:

»www.arrl.org/news/stories/2006/1···ide1.jpg

Here is the 2007 map:

»uplc.utc.org/file_depot/0-100000···Map+2007.

It looks like there are a lot fewer dots to me...

There have been a number of BPL successes, but major utilities have tried it and walked away. PPL in Allentown, PA had deployed a system past 5,000 homes or so, and shut 99% of it down, leaving only a small leg in Bethlehem, PA to honor contracts it has with some businesses. (The UPLC map call this a "commercial deployment.") IDACORP announced that it was abandoning BPL, and that its foray into trying it cost their stockholders about $10M.

That is, of course, contrasted with major deployments like Current Technologies and TXU in Dallas, planned for 2M homes.

As to the term "momentum," according to the latest FCC report on broadband use, there are now about 5200 BPL lines in the US. Compared to the other technologies, BPL enjoys about 0.008% of the market, not exactly a share I would term as "momentum" in any sense of the word.

Unfortunately, the tendency of its supporters to overstate its capability and viability have hurt its cause more than helped it.

In the long run, I am sure that BPL will have its place, but in the long run, I can't imagine it living up to what some of its proponents think it is.

Ed Hare

Ed Hare
ARRL Laboratory Manager
RayW
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Good luck

Even though there are some legislature members who are Hams, there are too many that are only in it for the money. It would be interesting to see how the FCC did their testing.

FCC: ComTek, we will be doing measurements of the supposed interference you are causing, what would be a good time?

ComTek: Would Tuesday between 0700 and 0900 work for you?

Too bad some of the higher up proponents of this technology do not have an introductory level course in electromagnetic theory. Even an introductory level electronics technician course as taught by the military would help give them a clue.
--
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n2jtx

join:2001-01-13
Glen Head, NY
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Re: Good luck

I'm sure we'll see the data as soon as they finish making it up. After all, in the rush to give the installation a clean bill of health, I am sure they forgot create a detailed paper trail they could later use to justify their findings.
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rf_engineer

join:2003-08-04
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Re: Good luck

Here's one of the sheets from the last FOIA request that the FCC redacted...

Maxo
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edit:
February 28th, @12:02PM

Hands off

If Kevin Martin wants to take a governmental "hands-off" approach, why is he going around promoting anything? Isn't that very much a "hands-on" approach.

TK Junk Mail
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edit:
February 28th, @11:58AM

Re: Hands off

said by Maxo See Profile :

If Ken Martin wants to take a governmental "hands-off" approach
Is he any relation to Kevin Martin, the FCC Commissioner ?
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Maxo
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Re: Hands off

Ignore the "edit: Wednesday February 28th, @12:02PM"

brooklynman4

join:2004-09-07
Brooklyn, NY
When u get into a car accident who u think calls the for help that trackter trailer passing by they should not be left out.
RayW
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Re: Hands off

said by brooklynman4 See Profile :

When u get into a car accident who u think calls the for help that trackter trailer passing by they should not be left out.
If I can translate correctly into English "When you get into an accident, who do you think calls for help when the tractor trailer passes by without helping?" (Reminds me of the spam I get from all the non-english speaking countries.)

Um...someone on a cell phone? Or a VHF/UHF ham radio if not on a main route? BPL (consumer style) most likely has very little to do with the supposed scenario you are talking about since consumer BPL affects the long haul radio frequencies and this is a bit higher up in the spectrum.
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Tzale
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Re: Hands off

said by RayW See Profile :

said by brooklynman4 See Profile :

When u get into a car accident who u think calls the for help that trackter trailer passing by they should not be left out.
If I can translate correctly into English "When you get into an accident, who do you think calls for help when the tractor trailer passes by without helping?" (Reminds me of the spam I get from all the non-english speaking countries.)

Um...someone on a cell phone? Or a VHF/UHF ham radio if not on a main route? BPL (consumer style) most likely has very little to do with the supposed scenario you are talking about since consumer BPL affects the long haul radio frequencies and this is a bit higher up in the spectrum.
true, I am an Amateur Radio operator and HF is 1-30MHZ... That is where BPL is mainly causing problems, and hams don't just use that spectrum, the majority of it is used by the government and companies...

-Tzale
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RayW
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Re: Hands off

Tzale, it will be interesting to see what happens with the influx of new HF privilege Hams in regards to the complaints on BPL. I know that at the one session I was at on the 23rd they had 26 people testing for G and E, and that session was advertised mainly by word of mouth. My club's test session on the 7th already has over 30 people stating an interest and they are expecting at least that many more as walk-ins. Makes me wonder, the FCC loosens up the entry requirements for users of HF, yet on the other hand is actively promoting consumer BPL technology that ruins the frequencies of interest.
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Tzale
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edit:
February 28th, @11:07PM

Re: Hands off

said by RayW See Profile :

Tzale, it will be interesting to see what happens with the influx of new HF privilege Hams in regards to the complaints on BPL. I know that at the one session I was at on the 23rd they had 26 people testing for G and E, and that session was advertised mainly by word of mouth. My club's test session on the 7th already has over 30 people stating an interest and they are expecting at least that many more as walk-ins. Makes me wonder, the FCC loosens up the entry requirements for users of HF, yet on the other hand is actively promoting consumer BPL technology that ruins the frequencies of interest.
The reason why they dropped the CW requirement (which I think is a big mistake) was because the ARRL petitioned the FCC to drop it. It is true that a lot of people didn't want to learn CW and now are Generals. But in my opinion, they are just lazy and there wasn't anything stopping them from learning CW at 5 WPM. I never liked CW, but I learned it and passed on November 15th last year, so now I'm a General and I feel like I earned it. I actually like CW too, it's one of my favorite modes.

The FCC is big, one hand does one thing, the other does another. Over the years, they have been simplifying Amateur Radio. There used to be complex license classes and you had to travel to a big city to take the test in front of a FCC examiner, now with the VE sessions it has become much more "easier" on the FCC. Some think they'll remove the testing eventually, that would be a major mistake. The only thing separating hams from cbers are the testing and determination once must make to legally get on the bands.

From two VE sessions I heard about in my area on the repeaters last week, we had 25 people and 19 people show up at the sessions for upgrades/testing, so there is definitely going to be a lot of new Generals on the bands now.
-Tzale
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-Virtual Pirate-

rf_engineer

join:2003-08-04
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Re: Hands off

said by Tzale See Profile :

said by RayW See Profile :

Tzale, it will be interesting to see what happens with the influx of new HF privilege Hams in regards to the complaints on BPL. I know that at the one session I was at on the 23rd they had 26 people testing for G and E, and that session was advertised mainly by word of mouth. My club's test session on the 7th already has over 30 people stating an interest and they are expecting at least that many more as walk-ins. Makes me wonder, the FCC loosens up the entry requirements for users of HF, yet on the other hand is actively promoting consumer BPL technology that ruins the frequencies of interest.
The reason why they dropped the CW requirement (which I think is a big mistake) was because the ARRL petitioned the FCC to drop it.
The ARRL's petition actually pushed to retain 5 WPM for Extras ( »www.arrl.org/news/stories/2006/1···04/?nc=1 ). The reason the FCC dropped the requirement was the international requirement was dropped and there were a large number of petitions in favor of dropping it.

The FCC is big, one hand does one thing, the other does another.
Your right hand/left hand analogy is very true. The BPL technical follies have been coming from the FCC Office of Engineering and Technology (OET), arguably with the blessing of the guys at the top. Amateur Radio policy comes from a different department, the Wireless Telecommunications Bureau (WTB).

Some think they'll remove the testing eventually, that would be a major mistake. The only thing separating hams from cbers are the testing and determination once must make to legally get on the bands
I doubt we'll ever see testing removed. All one has to do is look at the CB fiasco and make the case that such a move would violate international treaties. Plus, WTB seems to have a little more common sense than OET.

I think most of those theorizing that all testing will be removed are merely upset over the removal of the CW testing requirement, and are using the theory as a debate tactic. There's no basis for the argument, in my opinion. Removal of testing would result in an enforcement nightmare and stretch FCC resources.
RayW
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A bit off topic now, but as I recall, the ARRL did not want the code totally dropped, that was the FCC. I would go out and check the ARRL site, but I can not access it now.

As far as not learning CW because people are lazy, that might be true for some folks, but others like myself have a problem learning new languages. According to my mom, I was a slow learner just to speak and understand English as a child and to this day I still miss parts of a conversation (and yes, the hearing tests are good). On the other hand, I have found over the years that for me, all the testing for the various licenses have been easy to pass while some other folks struggle to do so even though code is simple for them.

That said. I am still working on the code, even though I already have my piece of paper for Extra, because I believe code IS important. Maybe someday I will break through whatever problem I have and be able to use that mode too. Oh, and for those who think the FCC reduced the amount of code spectrum, they did not. With the exception of 60 meters and ignoring any band plans, you can legally use code anywhere in the US Amateur bands. And as I recall from my Navy days, properly used code reception techniques should be able to squeeze through voice QRM and make contacts that can not be done with voice modes, unless someone is deliberately out to jam you.
--
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Tzale
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Re: Hands off

said by RayW See Profile :

A bit off topic now, but as I recall, the ARRL did not want the code totally dropped, that was the FCC. I would go out and check the ARRL site, but I can not access it now.

As far as not learning CW because people are lazy, that might be true for some folks, but others like myself have a problem learning new languages. According to my mom, I was a slow learner just to speak and understand English as a child and to this day I still miss parts of a conversation (and yes, the hearing tests are good). On the other hand, I have found over the years that for me, all the testing for the various licenses have been easy to pass while some other folks struggle to do so even though code is simple for them.

That said. I am still working on the code, even though I already have my piece of paper for Extra, because I believe code IS important. Maybe someday I will break through whatever problem I have and be able to use that mode too. Oh, and for those who think the FCC reduced the amount of code spectrum, they did not. With the exception of 60 meters and ignoring any band plans, you can legally use code anywhere in the US Amateur bands. And as I recall from my Navy days, properly used code reception techniques should be able to squeeze through voice QRM and make contacts that can not be done with voice modes, unless someone is deliberately out to jam you.
Yeah, the ARRL wanted to keep CW for Extra. I personally think that Extra should have kept it also, if it needed to be dropped from General. But of course, CW = more work for the FCC... So they got rid of it. It is the ONLY "common" mode that the majority of amateurs around the world know and use, it's the only mode that works well when one op speaks Arabic only and one speaks English only, for example....

CW isn't a "language." It is by no means as hard as a language to learn since it simple represents characters in your native alphabet/language. If you can't read and write English, you can't (for the most part) use CW unless you strictly use the Q signals and prosigns.

I know what you mean about that, look at 40 meters..... Half the band is full of shortwave broadcasters... It is amazing what 100 watts or less and a CW signal can get through with hundred kilowatt+ shortwave stations broadcasting right over them.

-Tzale
--
-Virtual Pirate-
rprather12

join:2005-03-12
Modesto, CA
I have read and re-read your statement and can't make any sense out of it!

You mean Hams don't use 80, 60, 40, 30, 20, 15, 12, and 10 Meters?

Many Hams do 90 to 100% of their operating on those bands.
moonpuppy

join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD

Re: Hands off

What he means is that the HAM bands only cover about 4% of HF spectrum. The rest is government and commercial.
Forums » Hams Demand FCC BPL Test Data


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