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Verizon: Cherry Picking 'Not In Our Corporate DNA'
States try to figure out who has broadband, want better ISP reporting...
(old news - 09:28AM Thursday Mar 01 2007)
While the FCC issues their bi-annual report on broadband penetration and gleefully declares all is well, dysfunctional methodology means state leaders really have no idea how deeply connectivity runs in their communities. As leaders try to shape broadband legislation they're noticing they can't make effective policy without accurate data (hello FCC), so they're heading into communities to measure connectivity. That's the first order of business for NY Governor Eliot Spitzer, who plans to offer pole and easement discounts to providers who push into rural areas.

Maryland lawmakers too are working to improve measurement, mandating in one case that ISPs better report on deployment, which terrifies the "regulation is akin to cancer" crowd. A bill being proposed would classify broadband as 768kbps (the FCC classifies it as 200kbps) and would force ISPs to detail each quarter where they're offering service, including how fast it is. Verizon and Comcast obviously oppose the bill, with one Verizon rep in the piece saying selective broadband deployment is "not part of Verizon’s corporate DNA."

Verizon has to cherry pick to some degree in order to offer FiOS in neighborhoods where demand is high and ROI is maximized. That said, there has to be some fairly sophisticated statistical analysis that goes into making neighborhood by neighborhood determinations, and we'd love to get our hands on the meeting minutes and spreadsheets involved.

Forums » Verizon: Cherry Picking 'Not In Our Corporate DNA'
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haplo2112

join:2003-05-12
Charlton, MA

Yeah right UH...VZ your a liar...

...just look at the deployment map for the state of MA, the list of haves and have nots is an obvious case of cherry picking and red lining. Just the fact that primary deployment area so far is the North Shore makes that obvious.

Come talk to me about your DNA when we start seeing the Central-Western MA area (I'll define that as between Worcester and Springfield, for the sake of having a definition), and a good deal more of the South Shore, lit up.
Lee325

join:2006-12-12
New Salem, MA

Re: Yeah right UH...VZ your a liar...

How about towns like Petersham and New Salem Ma. that don't even have cable! No chioce but High price Satellite for internet.
PDXPLT

join:2003-12-04
Banks, OR

Re: Yeah right UH...VZ your a liar...

Well, this is their proposal for the local franchise here:
»www.maccor.org/MACC%20franchise%···INAL.pdf

So yea, anyone at Verizon who says they are not interested in cherry picking is lying. The three lowest income incorporated cities in the Service Area are specifically excluded from FIOS TV.
SD6

join:2005-03-26

Re: Yeah right UH...VZ your a liar...

said by PDXPLT See Profile :

Well, this is their proposal for the local franchise here:
»www.maccor.org/MACC%20franchise%···INAL.pdf

So yea, anyone at Verizon who says they are not interested in cherry picking is lying. The three lowest income incorporated cities in the Service Area are specifically excluded from FIOS TV.
Can you facilitate and say which three cities you are referring to?
PDXPLT

join:2003-12-04
Banks, OR


edit:
March 1st, @08:21PM

Re: Yeah right UH...VZ your a liar...

quote:
Can you facilitate and say which three cities you are referring to?
Banks, Gaston, North Plains. No FIOS TV for those guys.

They're certainly dense enough, so VZ can't claim the "they don't have the density to be feasible" lie.
SD6

join:2005-03-26

Re: Yeah right UH...VZ your a liar...

said by PDXPLT See Profile :

quote:
Can you facilitate and say which three cities you are referring to?
Banks, Gaston, North Plains. No FIOS TV for those guys.

They're certainly dense enough, so VZ can't claim the "they don't have the density to be feasible" lie.
PDXPLT,

Those cities are apparently not part of the "Metropolition Area Communications Commission". They are not excluded from FIOS TV, they have merely decided to pursue a franchise agreement separately.

soothsayer15

join:2002-03-01
Irving, TX
·Verizon FIOS
·Verizon Online DSL


edit:
March 1st, @11:14PM

said by haplo2112 See Profile :

...just look at the deployment map for the state of MA, the list of haves and have nots is an obvious case of cherry picking and red lining. Just the fact that primary deployment area so far is the North Shore makes that obvious.

Come talk to me about your DNA when we start seeing the Central-Western MA area (I'll define that as between Worcester and Springfield, for the sake of having a definition), and a good deal more of the South Shore, lit up.
Verizon isn't lying, that is just your perception. I visited Massachusetts, people don't even want apartment complexes being built much less having their streets dug up for FiOS.

I hate when knuckleheads make generalized comments about Verizon cherry picking. You do business where is easiest, period. In Dallas-Forth Worth area, Verizon certainly isn't cherry picking. Beltline Road in Irving is fully wired for FiOS, this is definitely not a rich area. But 4 miles away in Coppell an affluent area ALSO ON BELTLINE ROAD, they don't have FiOS.

Stop passing of your bogus opinions off as fact.
haplo2112

join:2003-05-12
Charlton, MA

Re: Yeah right UH...VZ your a liar...

I am only speaking from the evidence.
soothsayer15

join:2002-03-01
Irving, TX
·Verizon FIOS
·Verizon Online DSL

Re: Yeah right UH...VZ your a liar...

said by haplo2112 See Profile :

I am only speaking from the evidence.
Made up facts and your perception doesn't count as evidence.
haplo2112

join:2003-05-12
Charlton, MA

"people don't every want apartment complexes being built"

Your right I don't want apartment complexes built.
Houses only more apartment complexes brings more population density. It lowers the over all property value and the tax base.

The families in an apartment complex do not contribute as much in taxes to the roads, schools, etc as the families in houses. This ends up lowering the per capita investement in such services.

So yeah no apartment complexes, just homes, thanks.

RideRed
Vista needs a popup blocker for Vista
Premium
join:2005-06-18
USA
FUD: Just look at CA and you see they aren't cherry picking.
Laura Unger
Premium
join:2007-02-28
Montclair, NJ

There's nothing to stop cherry picking

Of course all our communications companies are cherry picking. There's nothing to stop them. We need public policy that mandates higher speeds and access for all, no matter where they live. We need a real map of who has access and who doesn't and a way to confirm what speeds people are actually getting. These companies won't do it on their own. We need Pulic Policy on these issues with a real plan for oversight, investment,built out. Whether it is mandated federal or state by state, we can't leave this up to private companies. Check out »www.speedmatters.org.

AnonDOG

@kaballero.com

Broadband Providers ...

File your form 477s today please. The FCC estimates that only 10% of wireless providers are filing this form.

Before anyone can support wireless providers, they have to exist. The only way the FCC can know you exist is for you to file. This prevents the FCC from accurately reporting broadband penetration in rural areas AND REDUCES OUR LEVERAGE WITH THE FCC.

File!
»www.fcc.gov/broadband/data.html


Good graduation speech at Ft. Benning
»»www.youtube.com/results?search_q···h=Search

inteller
Sociopaths always win.

join:2003-12-08
Tulsa, OK

I really hate humanizing corporations.

there is no 'DNA' in a corporation, nor is there any other biological element. Corporations are heartless, souless, mechanical monsters bent on doing one thing, making money and accumulating power.

cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
·Verizon FIOS

Re: I really hate humanizing corporations.

said by inteller See Profile :

there is no 'DNA' in a corporation, nor is there any other biological element. Corporations are heartless, souless, mechanical monsters bent on doing one thing, making money and accumulating power.
Define: Metaphor

Corporations aren't suppose to give you warm fuzzies. They aren't suppose to play fetch, purr, love you everlasting. They aren't suppose to be with you for richer or poorer, in sickness and in health, till death do you part. They are there to make money. Period.
--
Go Colts
PDXPLT

join:2003-12-04
Banks, OR

said by inteller See Profile :

there is no 'DNA' in a corporation, nor is there any other biological element. Corporations are heartless, souless, mechanical monsters bent on doing one thing, making money and accumulating power.
Or more acurately and less melodramatic, they are heartless, souless, mechanical entities that are brought into existence to do one thing: enhance shareholder value; nothing more.

Criticizing a corporation for caring about nothing but making money is like criticizing a fish for swimming. That's their whole reason for existing.

cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
·Verizon FIOS

I want an honest answer here

quote:
Verizon has to cherry pick to some degree in order to offer FiOS in neighborhoods where demand is high and ROI is maximized. That said, there has to be some fairly sophisticated statistical analysis that goes into making neighborhood by neighborhood determinations, and we'd love to get our hands on the meeting minutes and spreadsheets involved.
Does anyone here with even a smidgen of common sense things that it makes sense for Verizon to deploy a brand spanking new and widespread commercially untested technology in areas where demand is now and ROI is minimized? Just think about it?

In full disclaimer, I currently have FiOS internet. I live in a medium sized city (Fort Wayne, Indiana). Verizon deployed Fios here and in the neighboring city of New Haven about 2 years ago. The average income in Fort Wayne is around $36k. The national average is about $10k more then that and the midwest average is about $8k more. We aren't particularly an affluent area and we don't have a huge tech industry although we do have at one time a large GTE presence and still maintain 1 of 3 Verizon call centers. When FiOS was deployed, it was done over most of the city at during the same period. Crews were rationalized to some degree just maximize use of equipment, but it wasn't like they did pockets here and there. The only exception was the southeast corner of the city that is generally considered the "poorer" section of town. They were done a year later after the winter freeze that shut down the work crews. Now just about everyone has access to fiber (apartments excluded). There are some areas on the fringes of town that may not be covered but that is because of how the existing POTS network is laid out and you will always have that.

If Verizon is cherry picking their installations, it's not around here. Remember that there is a difference between cherry picking, and not deploying in a area because it's not profitable.
--
Go Colts
Dolgan
Premium
join:2005-10-01
Sun Prairie, WI
·Verizon Online DSL

Re: I want an honest answer here

The only reason FIOS was deployed in Ft Wayne and New Haven was because of a sweetheart deal for a GTE Exec when Verizon bought out GTE. Your facts and figures are absolutely meaningless as there are no other deployemnts are scheduled in the Midwest.
SD6

join:2005-03-26

Re: I want an honest answer here

said by Dolgan See Profile :

The only reason FIOS was deployed in Ft Wayne and New Haven was because of a sweetheart deal for a GTE Exec when Verizon bought out GTE. Your facts and figures are absolutely meaningless as there are no other deployemnts are scheduled in the Midwest.
I recall the GTE merger (six years ago). Are you saying the decision to fiber Ft. Wayne was part of the GTE exec's buyout? The timeframe doesn't fit. The information is useful because it tends to disprove the cherry picking charge, they fibered a large area ($$$), not just the GTE exec's neighborhood.

Also, Verizon doesn't have a whole heck of a lot of wire centers in the Midwest.

cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
·Verizon FIOS

said by Dolgan See Profile :

The only reason FIOS was deployed in Ft Wayne and New Haven was because of a sweetheart deal for a GTE Exec when Verizon bought out GTE. Your facts and figures are absolutely meaningless as there are no other deployemnts are scheduled in the Midwest.
Oh bullshit. You have absolutely no basis for this. As SD6 pointed out the time frames don't fit. Plus do you really think Verizon is going to plop down that chunk of change to roll out FiOS just so an exec can get a fast connection? Please.

Verizon did the roll out here for several reasons. Verizon already had had a significant in the area. We have one of the call centers as well as a data center (although I'm not sure if it's still used as it once was). We had dual SONET rings connection all the COs in the area already so rolling out fiber was less of an impact. Plus local government lobbied Verizon heavily to be included in on the early cities that were deployed and fast tracked the permitting process instead of tying it up with red tape like many communities did.

So what if Verizon isn't doing any other Midwest installs. My point was that Verizon did Fort Wayne despise the fact that there were many other areas in much larger metroplexes that could have been done. Could it possibly be that Verizon hasn't done other Midwestern areas because most of their Midwest territory is in smaller towns that would have had much higher initial costs just to get the bandwidth there. Or maybe it's because Verizon is trying to sell off their Midwest region (except around Fort Wayne) and they didn't want to put in a huge investment into an area going to the competition. Nah, it can't be any of that. I bet they aren't deploying it just to spite you.
--
Go Colts
Nuts

join:2006-04-27
Forest, OH
I was told by a verizon call center person that ohio is supposed to start getting fios this year. We'll have to see if that proves true not.

Where do you get your info that no other midwest deployments are scheduled
SD6

join:2005-03-26

FIOS deploment is fairly predictable

"Verizon has to cherry pick to some degree in order to offer FiOS in neighborhoods where demand is high and ROI is maximized. That said, there has to be some fairly sophisticated statistical analysis that goes into making neighborhood by neighborhood determinations, and we'd love to get our hands on the meeting minutes and spreadsheets involved."

A few presumptions here. I am beginning to think this issue is a broadband Rohrschach test - what you say informs the reader more about what you think than it does about Verizon's strategy.

A local paper in Westchester County, NY did a statistical analysis a year ago based on census bureau statistics, and found no discernible difference in income between those towns where FIOS had been deployed versus those towns where it had not been deployed. I'd like to see similar analysis elsewhere and to have them reported. But no presumptions please.

By the way, if you look at factors like population density, % of owner-occupied single family housing, competition, aerial vs. buried, regulatory environment, the FIOS general deployment strategy makes a lot of legitimate business sense. As to detailed neighborhood by neighborhood, I wouldn't expect there to be a lot of sophisticated analysis except maybe the aerial vs buried factor.

cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
·Verizon FIOS

Re: FIOS deploment is fairly predictable

I believe I heard that when Verizon started deploying around my area, it wasn't the rich areas that had the higher subscription rates. It was the middle income and the lower income teetering on becoming middle income that had a higher adoption rates. In the "rich" part of town the adoption rate was actually quite a bit lower then was expected. I don't remember what the source of the statistics was so take all this with a grain of salt.
--
Go Colts
SD6

join:2005-03-26

Re: FIOS deploment is fairly predictable

said by cdru See Profile :

I believe I heard that when Verizon started deploying around my area, it wasn't the rich areas that had the higher subscription rates. It was the middle income and the lower income teetering on becoming middle income that had a higher adoption rates. In the "rich" part of town the adoption rate was actually quite a bit lower then was expected. I don't remember what the source of the statistics was so take all this with a grain of salt.
I hate stereotypes and demographics, but this is consistent with marketing data that I saw about six years ago when my county changed from analog to digital CATV. It seems that CATV serves as cheap entertainment and leisure activity. The conclusions drawn by marketing was that rich people can travel, get NBA season tickets, and generally do those things which are more fun and more expensive than CATV.

JTRockville
Data Ho
Premium,MVM
join:2002-01-28
Rockville, MD
clubs:
·LINGO
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
·surpasshosting
·Verizon FIOS

said by SD6 See Profile :

...A few presumptions here. I am beginning to think this issue is a broadband Rohrschach test - what you say informs the reader more about what you think than it does about Verizon's strategy.

A local paper in Westchester County, NY did a statistical analysis a year ago based on census bureau statistics, and found no discernible difference in income between those towns where FIOS had been deployed versus those towns where it had not been deployed. I'd like to see similar analysis elsewhere and to have them reported. But no presumptions please. ....
So you make presumptions, but we're not allowed to!!

Well take this for what it's worth. It's certainly not a statistical analysis (and may even be presumptious), but back when Verizon first broke ground in MCMD, a bunch of us tried to guess how Verizon determined deployment priority. At the time we were unaware of "the Rockville situation", so we didn't consider a community's permitting process to be important (in retrospect, it may be the most important factor). But we honestly couldn't see a pattern. Income, aerial vs buried, CO size, WhoKnowsWhatElse? Nada. No obvious patterns. I mean, it wasn't like VZ rolled in and only covered Chevy Chase and Potomac.

We actually concluded that COs where Councilmembers live might be more relevant than income, but that was just a wild unconfirmable guess.
SD6

join:2005-03-26

Re: FIOS deploment is fairly predictable

JT,

I didn't make any presumptions. When a "news" posting asserts that Verizon cherry picks and that there is "sophisticated statistical analysis" behind their neighborhood deployment patterns, I critically evaluate these assertions and state where they are without support (as in the study I mentioned). At this point, I think I concur with you that there is no discernable pattern.

SD6
tmc8080

join:2004-04-24
Floral Park, NY

NY metro as comparison

If we look at the Verizon vs Cablevision footprint in NY metro, we see that Verizon has approx. 850,000 of the 3.X million subscribers with FTTP. How much longer until we're at 50%, 75%, 90%, 100%? Who knows, but one thing is clear.. Verizon is dragging out deployments longer than they have to be.. the "weather" has been completely great for deployment work and the only thing holding them back is the willpower to do the work in the areas that need deployment.
Another problem is competing on an apples to apples basis, which Verizon all but refuses to do:
Fios Internet (comparable speeds or faster)
FIOS TV (LOWER THE PER SET TOP BOX FEES GODDAMIT!!!)
VOIP delivered over fios.
At a better bottom line price to cablevision, once they accomplish this (to the chagrin of their shareholders) they can make some miraculous headway in marketshare.. otherwise, it's same old, same old verizon-- while Cablevision keeps plugging away at the $29.95 each triple play for 1 year (if you qualify-- believe you/me less and less people qualify these days)... and what kind of service you get for saiving over FIVE HUNDREDS DOW-LARS-- who's to say the QOS?

kyramilan

join:2006-11-26
Pensacola, FL

Re: NY metro as comparison

Cherry Pick VZ!!!

Helps my investment!

You have my and every other investors permission to dump unprofitable states. "Let them eat cake!"
jdracer47

join:2005-10-16
Auburn, PA

Uh huh

The only people I know who have Fios are those that live in houses that cost three times mine in an affluent area in the Lehigh Valley.
FX06

join:2007-03-04

Re: Uh huh

There is no rhyme or reason to how they roll out service, other than cost effectiveness. It does'nt matter if you live in goldville usa, or shitstain usa you still pay the same price. That being said the biggest thing driving the stock is the number of home passed. It does'nt matter how many sign up, it's how many home have fiber running by them. There for if you can run fiber down 100 poles in one community and pass 600 houses,or down 100 poles and only pass 75 houses where would you run it??
Forums » Verizon: Cherry Picking 'Not In Our Corporate DNA'

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