  LinklistPremium
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Longport, NJ
kudos:5
1 edit |  It's the law: comply or face the consequencs
And if it is costly to implement, then you just raise the rates to the customers as you would with complying with any other law that affects costs(like accounting laws).
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| Re: It's the law: comply or face the consequencs it may be the law, but that doesn't mean it's a good one. From everything I have read about this, this law is not necessary to allow intercepts, it's just a power law enforcement wants and they were able to FUD their way into getting it (along with a compliant congress and FCC).
you are correct however, that ISPs can get in trouble for not complying. It's interesting that when the ILECs were required to implement this power for law enforcement, the government allocated funding to pay for it. In this case, the govt declared ISPs have to pay it themselves - not enough bribes to the right congress critters, I guess.
just another barrier to broadband competition. | |
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| |  SteveI know your IP addressConsultant
join:2001-03-10
Yorba Linda, CA
kudos:5 | Re: It's the law: comply or face the consequencs said by nasadude:just another barrier to broadband competition. Isn't "an affront to freedom" a much bigger deal than the impact on broadband deployment?
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| | | | | Re: It's the law: comply or face the consequencs said by Steve:said by nasadude:just another barrier to broadband competition. Isn't "an affront to freedom" a much bigger deal than the impact on broadband deployment? You would think so but evidently the spirit of independence and liberty that existed in this country in most of the 18th, 19th, and early 20th century has been bred out of the current population. | |
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| | | |  nixenRockin' the BoxenPremium
join:2002-10-04
Alexandria, VA | Re: It's the law: comply or face the consequencs said by linflas:said by Steve:said by nasadude:just another barrier to broadband competition. Isn't "an affront to freedom" a much bigger deal than the impact on broadband deployment? You would think so but evidently the spirit of independence and liberty that existed in this country in most of the 18th, 19th, and early 20th century has been bred out of the current population. Yeah, well... When you're a child in the public schools, faced with random drug testing, locker searches, metal detectors, etc., you come to think of having no right to privacy as a given. Remember, even Hitler knew that the best way to control a population was through the children.
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| | | | |  calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA | Re: It's the law: comply or face the consequencs I love the folks who oppose school locker searches for drugs. Faced with rampant drug problems and no ability to find drugs when stashed in lockers, many, many schools have done away with lockers. Now we have kids carrying 20 pounds of books around all day long and wrecking their shoulders. What a terrific improvement!
calvoiper
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| | | | | | nixenRockin' the BoxenPremium
join:2002-10-04
Alexandria, VA | Re: It's the law: comply or face the consequencs said by calvoiper:I love the folks who oppose school locker searches for drugs. Faced with rampant drug problems and no ability to find drugs when stashed in lockers, many, many schools have done away with lockers. Now we have kids carrying 20 pounds of books around all day long and wrecking their shoulders. What a terrific improvement! calvoiper Cry me a freaking river. When I was in high school, we had classrooms in two buildings separated by a .6MI walk. You only were only given a locker in *one* of the two buildings. There wasn't enough time between classes to drop and pickup text books, so you generally had to huck 3-4 classes worth of books up and down the hill separating the two schools.
If carrying the books in a backpack is such a hardship, maybe their parents should get them the rolling tote style bags (like a lot of the kids around here seem to have)? Surely that wouldn't wreck their delicate shoulders?
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| | | | | | | calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA | Re: It's the law: comply or face the consequencs I have a better idea. Let students who are willing to accept drug searches have lockers, and for students who don't want locker searches, the status quo--no lockers.
Some students are better off than today, and some are no worse off--and each student gets to pick which group to be in!
calvoiper
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| | | | | | | | nixenRockin' the BoxenPremium
join:2002-10-04
Alexandria, VA | Re: It's the law: comply or face the consequencs said by calvoiper:I have a better idea. Let students who are willing to accept drug searches have lockers, and for students who don't want locker searches, the status quo--no lockers. Wow: wonderful idea. Then, you can do piss tests of the ones that didn't accept the drug searches. After all, if they didn't want to be potentially subject to drug searches, they must have something to hide, right? You've now got your probable cause to justify it. Oh happy day.
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| | | | | | | | | calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA | Re: It's the law: comply or face the consequencs I didn't say anything about urine testing, and declining a locker wouldn't be probable cause in any event.
Perhaps a refresher in probable cause is in order; here's a reasonable starting point:
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probable_cause
In any event, maybe the solution to your perceived problem is to assign all students lockers, and then the ones that don't want to use them don't have to.
calvoiper
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| | | | | | | | | nixenRockin' the BoxenPremium
join:2002-10-04
Alexandria, VA | Re: It's the law: comply or face the consequencs said by calvoiper:I have a better idea. Let students who are willing to accept drug searches have lockers, and for students who don't want locker searches, the status quo--no lockers. You're the jack-wit that suggested making the locker privilege contingent on being willing to be searched. You also cried about the poor kiddies having to lug "20lbs" of books. So, what poor, book-burdened kid is going to decline a locker "unless he has something to hide" (popular refrain on DSLR and elsewhere for why someone would object to giving up privacy)?
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| | | | | | | | | calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA | Re: It's the law: comply or face the consequencs So glad you're so pleased with your result. Perhaps someone should ask the kiddies who are lugging the books?
Besides, you failed to respond to my suggestion that assigning everyone a searchable locker and allowing those who didn't want their privacy invaded to avoid using it would work.
Such an interesting viewpoint, really. "If my kid can't have a place to hide drugs, then no kid should be able to store anything."
calvoiper
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| | | | | | | | | nixenRockin' the BoxenPremium
join:2002-10-04
Alexandria, VA | Re: It's the law: comply or face the consequencs said by calvoiper:Such an interesting viewpoint, really. "If my kid can't have a place to hide drugs, then no kid should be able to store anything." Interesting presumption you make - that it's automatically going to be used for hiding drugs. You presume guilt and that those who are innocent must give up their privacy to prove their innocence. You are exactly what's wrong with this country.
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| | | | | | | | | calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA | Re: It's the law: comply or face the consequencs I make the assumption that some of the lockers would be used for that because they were in fact used that way, and it is to prevent that use that the decisions to remove lockers (in the absence of an ability to search them) were made.
I think that denying someone a "searchable" locker in the name of some weird concept that everything lent to a juvenile must be totally private is insane. If I lend the kid next door my tool box, and he stashes cocaine in it, by your logic I should be prevented from telling the cops about it.
calvoiper
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| | | | | | | | | nixenRockin' the BoxenPremium
join:2002-10-04
Alexandria, VA | Re: It's the law: comply or face the consequencs said by calvoiper:I make the assumption that some of the lockers would be used for that because they were in fact used that way, and it is to prevent that use that the decisions to remove lockers (in the absence of an ability to search them) were made. I think that denying someone a "searchable" locker in the name of some weird concept that everything lent to a juvenile must be totally private is insane. If I lend the kid next door my tool box, and he stashes cocaine in it, by your logic I should be prevented from telling the cops about it. How is that even close to comparable??? You're comparing a single-user storage device to an, apparently, shared storage device. Or, do you just magically "know" that the kid's keeping illegal stuff in his locker?
Again, you're slandering an entire class by making a presumption of guilt based on the actions of a few. That's a wonderful freaking mindset you have there. You the rest of the neo-fascist contingent on DSLR must all be best buds.
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| | | | | | | | | calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA | Re: It's the law: comply or face the consequencs Well, school administrations the nation over have removed lockers rather than have them be "private" havens for drugs. Parents, who elect school boards, haven't changed these policies.
It's not me that's saying no lockers is better than private lockers, it's our school administrators backed by elected officials. Your ideological problem is with them, not with me. I'm only pointing out the absurd consequences of forcing schools to give students "private" space--when even their own parents may not wish (and are not required) to let them have such "private" space.
calvoiper
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| | | | | | | | | | | I think the key here is for these parents to actually do their jobs and keep their kids from becoming criminals by being good role models and taking an active role in their kid's development (that means YOU mr/mrs workaholic with the fridge full of frozen dinners). These days parents expect the schools to do everything, and then blame the school when their kid is screwed up. Note to parents: You are the only one to blame for your kid's behavior. If you aren't responsible enough to accept that simple fact, then you shouldn't have kids.
Seriously, I remember when I was in school, the only kids who were poorly behaved are the ones who had crappy parents or mental issues. (I count myself in the latter group 0:) haha) | |
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| | | | | | | | | said by nixen:Cry me a freaking river. When I was in high school, we had classrooms in two buildings separated by a .6MI walk. You only were only given a locker in *one* of the two buildings. There wasn't enough time between classes to drop and pickup text books, so you generally had to huck 3-4 classes worth of books up and down the hill separating the two schools. If carrying the books in a backpack is such a hardship, maybe their parents should get them the rolling tote style bags (like a lot of the kids around here seem to have)? Surely that wouldn't wreck their delicate shoulders? Maybe the parents could get them a set of weights to offset the hardship of carrying 3-4 , possibly 5 books, which combined weigh no more than 20 pounds at most. 
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| | |  53059959Temp banned from BBR more then anyone
join:2002-10-02
PwnZone | said by Steve:You would think so but evidently the spirit of independence and liberty that existed in this country in most of the 18th, 19th, and early 20th century has been bred out of the current population. who needs to know about independence and liberty when you have calculus | |
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| | | | SteveI know your IP addressConsultant
join:2001-03-10
Yorba Linda, CA
kudos:5
2 edits | Re: It's the law: comply or face the consequencs said by 53059959:said by Steve:You would think so but evidently the spirit of independence and liberty that existed in this country in most of the 18th, 19th, and early 20th century has been bred out of the current population. Steve  didn't say that - please edit your quotes properly | |
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| | | | | calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA | Re: It's the law: comply or face the consequencs Yeah, it was linflas.
(It's not easy to screw up an auto-quote--how did you manage it without being intentional?)
calvoiper
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| | | | This hurts the small provider. These boxes are not cheap and we could up our prices to cover the cost. Companies like Comcast, AT&T, and other mega deep pocketed ISPs can absorb the cost with our upping rates.
CALEA has still not said how providers must provide this data. They just say that it must be provided and by when. If you use the ask Calea website you get very vague conflicting answers. There are people out there that keep promising a cheap open source solution but when you ask when will it be available the answer is "Soon" | |
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| | | nixenRockin' the BoxenPremium
join:2002-10-04
Alexandria, VA | Re: It's the law: comply or face the consequencs said by battleop:This hurts the small provider. These boxes are not cheap and we could up our prices to cover the cost. Companies like Comcast, AT&T, and other mega deep pocketed ISPs can absorb the cost with our upping rates. Of course, with the likes of AT&T providing access to all traffic transiting their networks - whether of their customers or not - one wonders why the need for smaller ISPs and universities to be subject to CALEA. Just put it on all the backbones. You'll have access to all the traffic, any way.
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Everyday, thousands of new cars are delivered to their new owners with poorly-selected radio station presets. | |
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| | | | | | Re: It's the law: comply or face the consequencs AT&T provides fat pipes to other company's with a big block of IPs. So how does AT&T tell the Gov. who that IP is assigned to? I would sure think that they have had such system in place for years with the BIG BELL Company's, but now they want it at a lower or closer level.
But I think this is nothing more then another way to kill off the small ISP. Give it another 15 years and there will only be 5 to 10 media carriers in the country. If even that many. | |
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|  Michieru2zzz zzz zzzPremium
join:2005-01-28
Miami, FL | Stop kissing that law book so much and actually review those laws before you agree with them. I rather take the entire network offline than provide a back door for spammers and crackers having a nice party bashing the back door open and I cannot close it because the government says so.
If you want me to have a backdoor you better pay me for the time I spend cleaning up machines, removing mail bombers from PC's.
I think universities already have enough trouble dealing with local access, the last thing they need is dealing with remote access.
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| | calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA | Re: It's the law: comply or face the consequencs It's not so much a question of whether the TCH agrees with the law or not--he's saying it is enforcable.
The point of law is that it applies even to those who disagree with it. Compliance with the law is not intended to be voluntary--that's why we have laws, so that certain things must be done (or avoided) by people who would do otherwise.
calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! | |
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| Re: It's the law: comply or face the consequencs said by calvoiper:It's not so much a question of whether the TCH agrees with the law or not--he's saying it is enforcable.... I wonder to what extent it will be enforced. What happens if 70% of ISPs don't meet the requirements? Are they really going to shut down that many ISPs and possibly have millions of people lose connectivity?
According to this,
»www.isp-planet.com/research/rank···usa.html
"Other U.S. ISPs" have 28.6M subs; hell, even 20% non-compliance and shutdown could be over 5M customers. 70% would be close to 20M. That's a lotta voters. | |
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| | | | calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA | Re: It's the law: comply or face the consequencs Well, they won't shut them all down at once. They'll shut down a few, ILEC DSL and cable will scramble to replace them, and word will get around.
They may also try monetary penalties. Owners of small ISPs generally don't like $10,000 fines (or civil penalties.)
I'm always amused by efforts to encourage "civil disobedience" by people who have no skin in the game....
calvoiper
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| | | Michieru2zzz zzz zzzPremium
join:2005-01-28
Miami, FL | It is indeed enforcable, whether we agree with the law or not, but from a IT point of view this is a seriously bad idea.
People are making bad and stupid ******* law's that's what really is pissing me off, and since everyone get's paid to do it, we end up with bread scraps and they get the honey roast beef.
You can preach all you want about laws, but we are being played like a game of checkers by our very own rules because of the loopholes these bastards found.
Now we are being charged for not using services such as "long distance" thanks to AT&T and THC's grand support of this marvelous company which has yet to prove anything useful.
P.S I was never stating what the law SHOULD be, but simply my understanding of it.
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|  tc1uscg
join:2005-03-09
Saint Clair Shores, MI | said by Linklist:The ISPs don't have a choice. The law was passed. It has not been delayed by any court. And there are penalties for non-compliance. If I was a CEO of an ISP, I'd make sure my company complied with the law. And if it is costly to implement, then you just raise the rates to the customers as you would with complying with any other law that affects costs(like accounting laws). And add a line item: "Required Govt ease-dropping fee"  | |
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 Jim GurdPremium
join:2000-07-08
Plymouth, MI | Encryption And how exactly are they going to tap encrypted connections? Seems pretty useless to me. I guess they have never heard of PGP. | |
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 EUSKill cancerPremium
join:2002-09-10
canada | USA = United States of Asia?
You poor bastards. The level of paranoia is out of control.
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