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Slurp! Stealing Broadband Just Got Easier
Hungry to get your hands on your neighbor's internet?
Check out this new tech toy posted today over at Gadget Lab. It’s called Slurpr, and it makes use of 6 wireless interfaces to slurp up open networks in your area and aggregate them into one large broadband connection, obviously increasing download speeds. Not wanting to stop there, Slurpr’s inventor is working on a way to add closed networks to the system as well. Can we say legal issues?
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morbo
Complete Your Transaction
join:2002-01-22
00000

morbo

Member

interesting


those living in densely populated apartments should love this. the price is a bit steep...

evergreek
Boeing Rocks
join:2003-05-25
Austin, TX

1 recommendation

evergreek

Member

Re: interesting

999 euros.. lmao!!

Noah Vail
Oh God please no.
Premium Member
join:2004-12-10
SouthAmerica

Noah Vail

Premium Member

Wooo.

999 Euros = 1,342.0566 U.S. dollars act:google.

Maybe this could be done cheaper with 6 modified WRT54GL's and....

...what?

I could use 6 nic's in a Server2003 box but MS won't bond them. What would bridging them do? Nothing good I bet. Server 2003 has a hard enough time routing from multiple gateways.

Who's smarter than I am about this? Is there anything in the MS world that would bond multiple connections?

Shine your brilliance here you crazy diamond.

NV

ronpin
Imagine Reality
join:2002-12-06
Nirvana

ronpin

Member

Re: Wooo.

quote:
obviously increasing download speeds.
...uhh...not! It could increase capacity though.

cdru
Go Colts
MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN

cdru

MVM

Re: Wooo.

said by ronpin:
quote:
obviously increasing download speeds.
...uhh...not! It could increase capacity though.
Depends on what you are doing and how closely you are looking at things. Many of the speed booster technologies from a few years back would open multiple ftp connections and divide the file into multiple chunks. While there were multiple physical connections, the overall effect would be the same as a single connection. It wouldn't work for applications where a single pipe/bonded connection is required, but would effectively work just as well for p2p, usenet, etc where you would typically be downloading files/packets in multiple short bursts.

kyler13
Is your fiber grounded?
join:2006-12-12
Annapolis, MD

1 recommendation

kyler13 to Noah Vail

Member

to Noah Vail
1342 US dollars could get you about 2.5 years of broadband legally from cable (6-8Mbps) or fiber (15-20Mbps). In that 2.5 years, some or all of your neighbors could leave, cancel service, or upgrade to equipment that can't be broken in to. Then you have an expensive paperweight. I'm sure it would be useful to a select number in select locations, but it would be much more attractive if it were, say, a quarter of the cost.

voiplover
Premium Member
join:2004-05-28
Portsmouth, NH

voiplover

Premium Member

Re: Wooo.

Wait, Someone will buy it using your CC info them boot leg it...
rradina
join:2000-08-08
Chesterfield, MO

rradina to Noah Vail

Member

to Noah Vail
WinTel data center servers typically use two NIC cards and a driver that "teams" the cards for enhanced throughput and high availability. However, I believe this is done at the driver layer and not the OS layer. I think it also has to have the blessing of the switch at layer 2 since I think a virtual MAC address is involved.

Microsoft also has a poor man's load balancing feature where two servers share a MAC address and listen to all the packets but this wouldn't help in this case.

I don't know how the Windows routing table works. I know you could put the same default gateway in for each card and I suppose giving it the same metric might make Windows round robin (RR). If it does RR, it might only do so with five different apps and/or destinations. Windows may have an affinity with a single application and/or single destination always routing down one NIC. If it does RR this way, it would work for multiple concurrent destinations and/or applications but it wouldn't aggregate a single application's download from a single site.

Take all of this with a grain of salt. I know enough about infrastructure to be really, really dangerous but that's about my limit. I'm by no means an expert.

dvd536
as Mr. Pink as they come
Premium Member
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ

dvd536 to Noah Vail

Premium Member

to Noah Vail
said by Noah Vail:

999 Euros = 1,342.0566 U.S. dollars act:google.
Hmmmmm. $1300 or $50 to my own isp. . . . .
think i'll just pay for my own ISP.
only thing i use open wireless points for is seeding to get ratios up but not over my own connection

justathought
@rogers.com

justathought to Noah Vail

Anon

to Noah Vail
There's always the Linux option. »sourceforge.net/projects/bonding

Of course that would mean that one's nice cozy M$ Server 2003 box is now 100% worthless..
jacour
Premium Member
join:2001-12-11
Matthews, NC

jacour to morbo

Premium Member

to morbo
I visit Amsterdam a lot on business, and the city has more hotspots than you can imagine. This box would be a leacher's dream.

Still, this has to illegal as hell in most countries as it constitutes unauthorized "theft of service", especially if they are going to deliberately try and hack less secure WEP access points.
PDXPLT
join:2003-12-04
Banks, OR

PDXPLT

Member

Re: interesting

said by jacour:

Still, this has to illegal as hell in most countries...
Well I wouldn't think the device itself would be illegal, just some (probably most) of its uses.

Anomus
@rr.com

Anomus to jacour

Anon

to jacour
I have been cantenna connected to my neighbors access for 2 years now. I dont want to stir unknown trouble so I keep quiet and let sleeping dogs lie. But one day somebody is going to really test that "theft of service" claim in court and see if it gets shot all full of holes. People say if somebody leaves their front door open and somebody goes in, its still burglary. But if they leave their front door open for 2 years, how is any jury going to be convinced that entry was unlawfull. Its clearly implied if you want people to stay out, you close the door. Leaving it open for years is about as implied an invitation as it can ever be. And lets face it, there are lots of people that leave hotspots open on purpose and you can't really tell the difference. In court that constitutes reasonable doubt and the case is thrown out. Hence its not really illegal.
dda
Premium Member
join:2003-12-29
Bolton, MA

dda

Premium Member

Re: interesting

said by Anomus :

But one day somebody is going to really test that "theft of service" claim in court and see if it gets shot all full of holes.
It is being tested in court right now; there have been a couple recent news items about people getting both arrested and sentenced for "theft of service" because they were leaching.
said by Anomus :

And lets face it, there are lots of people that leave hotspots open on purpose and you can't really tell the difference. In court that constitutes reasonable doubt and the case is thrown out. Hence its not really illegal.
I believe the law (in the U.S.) says that unless you are invited in, you should stay out so yes, it is really easy to tell the difference; I seriously doubt any court/jury would buy the "I couldn't tell the difference" argument.

click_310
Eat my shorts
join:2002-12-06
Savannah, GA

click_310

Member

Re: interesting

said by dda:

I seriously doubt any court/jury would buy the "I couldn't tell the difference" argument.
Especially if you happen to own a 999 device

Anomus
@rr.com

Anomus to dda

Anon

to dda
No, No, I mean a real challege with somebody with the finances to really work the legal process. All there is now are people with cheap attorneys only interested in coping pleas. That doesn't mean the law holds up. Bad law interpretations run over stupid people all the time until a smart wealthy person comes along and uncovers the stupidity of the prosecutors claims.

click_310
Eat my shorts
join:2002-12-06
Savannah, GA

2 edits

click_310 to Anomus

Member

to Anomus
Leaving the age old,"leaving the front door open", analogy... the ,"theft of service", law(s) came about around the time electricity started being distributed.
Its time they were updated... not that stealing / borrowing someones bandwidth is right or wrong.

But if someone repeatedly drives too slow in the middle/fast lane, takes an eternity to accelerate out of a red light /stop sign, {do stuff on the road that my grand mother would do }.

Their driving license should be revoked. Thats what the internets are like. If you cannot be bothered to use it, right,don't.

Driving a certain way can lead to financial hardships, (accident -> lawsuit ) , and so can using those damn computers. One stupid click , (or open AP), and all of a sudden identity theft + ruined credit.

---
[EDIT] added "right"
rradina
join:2000-08-08
Chesterfield, MO

rradina to Anomus

Member

to Anomus
I think this might only apply to patents and/or copyrights. I think there are some rulings in these areas that if you don't defend them for years and years and abuse is widespread that you may then lose the privilege to enforce them later.

Lots of private land owners have "no tresspassing" signs but they don't have fences stopping would be offenders. However, it's still tresspassing if they catch you and decide to prosecute even if you've been riding your ATV on their land for years and years.

I think the problem with some of the assumptions here are common sense. As painful as this might sound I recommend watching Judge Judy or one of the other courtroom reality shows. A lot of the rulings are common sense and I can hear Judge Judy asking now: "You're computer savvy, right? You know that Internet access is not free, right? You know that your neighbor was paying for their service, right? Judgement for the plaintiff."

I guess if someone can use a computer and truly be ignorant of the fact that Internet access is not free they might be able to get off with a warning. However, I don't know if any judge will believe them.

But hey -- I'm no lawyer, I just stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
alancain
Premium Member
join:2006-07-10
Grand Coulee, WA

alancain to Anomus

Premium Member

to Anomus
You are putting those neighbors of yours at risk; they are at risk in several ways. If you are stealing movies and images, and music, you are from the point of view of the legal system stealing content. You may be downloading child porn, for all we know, putting your neighbors at risk of felony convictions if they get pinned for it (not reasonable, but possible). They may get the blame; you are putting them at risk. I am certain that what you are doing is illegal and prosecutable.

I would hide my cantenna if I were you.

And on the topic of hotspots that are open versus hotspots that are closed, the test is easy: does the hotspot invite you in or does it not. An invitation must be active and not passive. Unless the hotspot is labelled as an invitation it is not open, regardless of whether the users are sophisticated or not. I have one at my office that is an invitation. Its ESSID includes the phrase freenet_dhcp; pretty clear, eh?

My neighbor has one that says SMITHnet. That is not an invitation, even though it is set up to give addresses automatically, and is not secured. They are inexperienced, but it is not a public access point. As they are not my customers, I let them be; I might tip them off sometime, but I haven't really tried to search them down. If they were my customers, I would pursue it. I might well associate with the access point then, too. Their bandwidth is really my bandwidth in that case.

A chicken in the yard is not fair game just because you see it.

Taking things without permission is called theft.
Kearnstd
Space Elf
Premium Member
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ

Kearnstd to morbo

Premium Member

to morbo
the wep thing makes it shaky on the legal side, auto locking onto wireless networks is hard to make illegal. my laptop if left turned on will find and access an unsecure WIFI link if it sees it because that is what windows does if it cant find any of my default networks.
rradina
join:2000-08-08
Chesterfield, MO

rradina

Member

Re: interesting

Most wireless drivers allow you to turn off automatic association because of the potential grave security risks involved. Some folks put up "honey pot" open APs so that once you associate, they attack your computer and try to compromise it. They can also perform man-in-the-middle attacks where they sniff your packets and directing your traffic to an unencrypted locally hosted sites that fish you for information.

I have my laptop set so that it does not associate to any APs that are not already setup in my profile. I have to deliberately setup a new profile to associate to any new AP.

I would also draw a distinction between accidental association and using the open AP.

iknowurkidding
@qwest.net

iknowurkidding to morbo

Anon

to morbo
gosh, i guess maybe i better stop 2 times @ the next stop sign then eh?, for those of us that maybe a little slow...well, i just ran a stop sign, you know, did not come to a complete!!!stop...

BIGMIKE
Q
Premium Member
join:2002-06-07
Gainesville, FL

BIGMIKE to morbo

Premium Member

to morbo
Can we say legal issues? or Can we say stupid Users?
Skippy25
join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO

Skippy25

Member

Re: interesting

I would say both.... the stupid user's that are stealing services will find they have legal issues.

nklb
Premium Member
join:2000-11-17
Ann Arbor, MI

nklb

Premium Member

Amsterdam

The guys who made this live in Amsterdam. I wonder what the legal status of all this is over there? In the article they mention it is a bit touchy but don't elaborate.
rantou
join:2002-06-04
Wylie, TX

rantou

Member

RB532...

The RB532 bus from what I have always been told would not support all those radios, but the RB564 was still invented and worked well for a few radios. My guess is that they are using the RB532r5 boards in the final product, but the picture does show the standard RB532 (w/out speaker on board). The r5 does have the 400MHz processor, still comes with 32 (RB532r5) or 64 (RB532Ar5) megs of memory, and they said the power bus was improved tremendously. It's still got the ability to move some data through it -- using 2 RB532r5 boards I am pushing near 90mbps of traffic (half duplex, still using RouterOS on it and NStreme2, 8.6 miles, and XR5 radios) and it's stable as could be.

I still just haven't done a Linux load on it yet to see if I could get anything more out of it, but RouterOS sure is stable.

Noah Vail
Oh God please no.
Premium Member
join:2004-12-10
SouthAmerica

Noah Vail

Premium Member

Re: RB532...

I don't know RouterOS at all. Will it run on anything that takes a *nix kernel?

NV
rantou
join:2002-06-04
Wylie, TX

rantou

Member

Re: RB532...

The RB532 can run any MIPS-compiled Linux and at routerboard.com they even have the CF card image for you to load to have basic Debian linux. RouterOS is just great because it does everything from wireless AP/client setups to long-range wireless bridges, then it does standard router stuff (think Linksys routers), and then it also does VPN, IPSec VPN, MPLS-type applications, bandwidth management, hotspot systems, BGP/OSPF/RIP routing, and really everything else you can imagine (except CALEA, coming VERY soon!) in a little package. Obviously you can't accept full BGP routes on a little box with 32-64 megs of memory, but RouterOS also does run on x86 architecture too, and it has lots of interface bonding features as well. I just don't do all the "1337 h4x0r" stuff that I did back in the days, I just like the product since it works. At the same time, I have a router running BGP at the head-end of my network announcing its routes, handling 4 carriers, and has enough memory and processor room to do plenty more, but I'm not pushing it that heavily. They make great routers for redundant failover because on Ethernet alone they can handle a very good amount of traffic. Even on an all wired network if you haven't looked at RouterOS to replace some older Cisco gear you have to because it's stable and fully functional. I just wish they had more interface options available but then again it seems like everybody is moving to Ethernet. (Multichannel DS3, anybody? )
Enlightener
join:2006-01-28
Cedar Park, TX

Enlightener

Member

Co-Op

Who says this has to be considered stealing?

ISP agreements aside, just enter into a co-op agreement with your neighbors and share the keys to your private networks with the understanding that you are aggregating your bandwidth for the common good of each other.

Cheese
Premium Member
join:2003-10-26
Naples, FL

Cheese

Premium Member

Re: Co-Op

said by Enlightener:

Who says this has to be considered stealing?

ISP agreements aside, just enter into a co-op agreement with your neighbors and share the keys to your private networks with the understanding that you are aggregating your bandwidth for the common good of each other.
And break the TOS. Bright idea.

click_310
Eat my shorts
join:2002-12-06
Savannah, GA

click_310

Member

Re: Co-Op

Unless you are with speakeasy... are they still doing the sharing thing?

Cheese
Premium Member
join:2003-10-26
Naples, FL

Cheese

Premium Member

Re: Co-Op

said by click_310:

Unless you are with speakeasy... are they still doing the sharing thing?
As of now I believe they are, but now that Best Buy bought them, I don't expect it to last long.

Anomus
@rr.com

Anomus

Anon

DD-WRT Linkys and cantenas work great...

I have been slurping my neighbors internet connection for 2 years now useing the same 3 routers and cantennas. They were'nt too expensive but the money has paid off hansomely in free access and Safe Anonomous movie DLing. The routers never change but I have to periodically adjust the 3 cantena positions to maintain good speeds. One antenna on an expensive router will never be as good so its just a waste of money. I finally hit the 12,000 movie file mark and almost as many TV show eposides, so clearly anonimity from **aa lawsuits is my biggest wireless benefit. Long live Wifi...

•••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
brianiscool
join:2000-08-16
Tampa, FL

brianiscool

Member

hah

This is great for bitorrent
bigjimc
join:2003-04-21
Middleboro, MA

bigjimc

Member

No Credit Card Processing

If the Justice Department was to get involved they would shut down any American bank processing of credit cards due to the unlawful nature of the product. (Search Allofmp3)

fatness
subtle

join:2000-11-17
fishing

fatness

confusing name: Slurpr

What are they selling here, an Internet gadget or a sex toy?
quote:
Anyone in a well-connected apartment block will know just how much pipe this thing could get them;

ptrowski
Got Helix?
Premium Member
join:2005-03-14
Woodstock, CT

ptrowski

Premium Member

Re: confusing name: Slurpr

said by fatness:

What are they selling here, an Internet gadget or a sex toy?
quote:
Anyone in a well-connected apartment block will know just how much pipe this thing could get them;
Hey oh! Nice catch!

jap
Premium Member
join:2003-08-10
038xx

jap to fatness

Premium Member

to fatness
said by fatness:

What are they selling here, an Internet gadget or a sex toy?
There's a difference?

istara
@bredbandsbolaget.se

istara

Anon

I would like a safe way to share my bandwidth

If someone could create a simple piece of hardware that would easily "split" my bandwidth into 90% for me, and 10% for my neighbours/random passers by, I would be happy to share. To "tithe" my bandwidth, if you like. Apparently this can be done but it requires more high end hardware/software/skills than I have access to.

I working title this concept device the "Bandwidth Charity Splitter".

Why do I want to do this? Because 10% of bandwidth is not so much, people may not even use it all the time, and I would like to think I could travel somewhere else and check my email over someone else's 10%.

Cheese
Premium Member
join:2003-10-26
Naples, FL

Cheese

Premium Member

Re: I would like a safe way to share my bandwidth

said by istara :

If someone could create a simple piece of hardware that would easily "split" my bandwidth into 90% for me, and 10% for my neighbours/random passers by, I would be happy to share. To "tithe" my bandwidth, if you like. Apparently this can be done but it requires more high end hardware/software/skills than I have access to.

I working title this concept device the "Bandwidth Charity Splitter".

Why do I want to do this? Because 10% of bandwidth is not so much, people may not even use it all the time, and I would like to think I could travel somewhere else and check my email over someone else's 10%.
It's called QoS.

niiice
@verizon.net

niiice

Anon

OMG

This is sick! ... and I thought combining 2 signals was cutting edge... this takes it to a whole NEW level!

Rax
Premium Member
join:2003-11-13
Floral Park, NY

Rax

Premium Member

Re: OMG

haha my friend is gonna love this thing
cbs228
Geeks Of The World, Unite
join:2000-09-04
Saint Louis, MO

cbs228

Member

Nonsense!

Wifi networks are a shared medium, and they use a variation of MACAW to detect and prevent collisions. Only one station may transmit at once on any given channel—otherwise the receiver will receive only garbage. Joining the same wireless network with multiple cards will not improve throughput. Joining different wireless networks may help, but only under certain conditions. In the United States, the FCC limits wireless networks to 11 overlapping channels. Only three of these channels are non-overlapping: A network on channel 2 will interfere with a network on channel 1, degrading the performance of both networks. Only channels 1, 6, and 11 are non-overlapping, and if you happen to be in range of networks on those three channels, joining them all may improve throughput. The catch, according to the Wikipedia article, is that transmitters on those (or any other) channels will interfere with each other if they are close enough—and this will certainly be the case with this device! Attempting to transmit with six different interfaces at once will likely do nothing but make a giant mess of the spectrum.

Even if you could join six different networks without massive loss or interference, there is no way to "aggregate" them into one connection. Packets sent via different networks will have different outgoing IP addresses, and thus a TCP or UDP connection must be made over one network only. While your overall throughput would increase, the bitrate of any given connection will be limited to the bitrate of the fastest network. While downloaders like DownThemAll could take advantage of this, not all webservers will support multiple connections. Some webservers will associate a session cookie with your IP address, and accessing them from multiple IP addresses can either (a) log you out to prevent session hijacking or (b) downright ban you. With that being said, BitTorrent might work very well in an environment like this.

In the absence of magical interference prevention, I believe that you will get far better results with a good wireless card and a $5 cantenna than you ever could with this device.
paule123
join:2002-07-25
Cleveland, OH

paule123

Member

Re: Nonsense!

said by cbs228:

Even if you could join six different networks without massive loss or interference, there is no way to "aggregate" them into one connection. Packets sent via different networks will have different outgoing IP addresses, and thus a TCP or UDP connection must be made over one network only. While your overall throughput would increase, the bitrate of any given connection will be limited to the bitrate of the fastest network.
Correct. Only ISPs that support MLPPP or NxT1 arrangements can bond two (or more) links together and increase the total speed. Usually that means a dedicated router on each end with multiple WAN interface cards.

hurfy
Premium Member
join:2002-08-06
Spokane, WA

hurfy

Premium Member

WOOT

6 counts of 'unauthorized computer access' for the effort of 1

err.....no thanks

no wi-fi at my house anyways so i am not even tempted I think i have the Geico cavemen as neighbors

••••
bohn
join:2006-05-30
Scarborough, ON

bohn

Member

Canada would be the target market

As we all know by now Canada has no judicial system so they'd be no legal ramifications. I would seriously like to market these in Canada. Bandwidth in Canada is a sick joke not to mention this would be a way around the ludicrous bandwidth caps.
Cloneman
join:2002-08-29
Montreal

Cloneman

Member

Re: Canada would be the target market

There's no market for this device at that price. Period. It's cool, it's sick, it's a nice toy for rich people who are bored one afternoon.

It would be fun to see what it can do for kicks but no one in their right mind would actually steal bandwidth from 8 different neighbors to set up a permanent internet connection.

There's a much bigger market for some sort of device that would offer SHARING of internet access with neighbors, with bandwidth rules and multiple wans.

As for Canada and bandwith, I think it's all good. You can negotiate a contract with bell sympatico and get 5Mbps unlimited for 30$ a month. It's not bad. If there's something Canada lags in, it's not the internet. We can have more subscribers per capita than anyone, and our ISPs are similar in speed and reliability to our US friends, and they have a MUCH larger customer base than we do.