Sprint Re-Thinking WiMax Plans Under pressure from nervous investors Thursday Jun 14 2007 08:54 EDT Sprint's WiMax service is set to go live in 2008, but some Sprint investors think the company is spending too much money on an "unproven" technology. Sprint is apparently eyeing several options, including forging a joint venture or partnership with Clearwire, potentially spinning off the WiMax business or searching out some new co-investors (potentially Time Warner Cable). |
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TimeWarner huhmaybe they could put some AOL co-branding on it and really flush it down the toilet maybe it could just dump you after a few minutes of non-use First Sprint ION and now this....Sprint sure has a way of spending a ton of money on something then dumping it suddenly maybe (aol)TimeWarner is a good partner | |
| | Time4aNAP Premium Member join:2007-04-09 Des Plaines, IL |
Time4aNAP
Premium Member
2007-Jun-14 12:38 pm
Re: TimeWarner huhsaid by rodrod5:First Sprint ION and now this....Sprint sure has a way of spending a ton of money on something then dumping it suddenly Sadly, Sprint is yet another company that could really go places if not for ignorant shareholders. I've gotten to know quite a few stock traders recently. All of them buy and sell based on matters that require expert knowledge. Not one of them possess any expert knowledge of the technology businesses that they, unfortunately, own and control. It must really suck to be a brilliant top executive at Sprint, who is poised to capture an entire market through forward thinking, only to get cut off at the last second by Nervous Nellie Luddites whose only interest is making money fast. People who honestly believe that the fax machine is high-tech have no business in corporate governance. | |
| | | old_dawg"I Know Noting..." join:2001-09-22 Westminster, MD |
Re: TimeWarner huhquote: It must really suck to be a brilliant top executive at Sprint, who is poised to capture an entire market through forward thinking... Yup, ol' Gary Forsee is one smart cookie allright:
Forsee has been under fire from investors since, as the head of Sprint, he orchestrated the companys 2005 merger with Nextel. The deal hasnt lived up to its billing, with subscriber growth slowing and Nextels creaky network taking a toll on call quality. That has helped drive down the combined companys stock 26% since the deal was closed.
According the filing (go to page 51 here to see it for yourself), Forsee would receive an exit package valued as high as $52.7 million if he were terminated from the company.
»blogs.wsj.com/deals/2007 ··· -forsee/
5,000 employees kicked to the curb while you engineer a 50->60 million $$$ personal severance package. That's one brilliant top executive for sure !!!. | |
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FluffPartners yes... but spinoff?
And clearwire brings so little money to the table Sprint would more likely just buy them.
But partners in helping out on the build out of Wimax could be a possibility. | |
| intellerSociopaths always win. join:2003-12-08 Tulsa, OK |
Ion.Sprint ION was way ahead of its time. It only failed because people didn't completely understand what it could do. | |
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Re: Ion.I still wish I had my ION I keep the hub just in case | |
| | | DaveDudeNo Fear join:1999-09-01 New Jersey |
Re: Ion.I wanted sprint IOn but was not in a service area, what gets me about Sprint, is they dont do things to save money. When Sprint merged with Nextel, they should have converted to GSM/3G, which has better economies of scale. If sprint could bring back ION, and integrate it with a cell phone, and use GSM. Sprint might have a chance at 3rd place. | |
| | | | CMoore2004 Premium Member join:2003-02-06 Jonesville, MI |
Re: Ion.Ummm, no. | |
| | | | Time4aNAP Premium Member join:2007-04-09 Des Plaines, IL 1 edit |
to DaveDude
said by DaveDude:When Sprint merged with Nextel, they should have converted to GSM/3G, which has better economies of scale. Wait a minute. Are you seriously suggesting that Sprint throw away its far superior EV-DO equipment to buy GSM? That means replacing their entire infrastructure, and force all of their customers to buy new equipment, whether they want to or not? That would most certainly kill Sprint for good. What is it about Sprint that attracts you "plan to fail" types? EDIT: Precisely what "economies of scale"??? | |
| | | | | intellerSociopaths always win. join:2003-12-08 Tulsa, OK
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Re: Ion.i wouldn't throw it away for GSM equipment, but I would throw it away for WCDMA....which is what the rest of the world is going to. | |
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to Time4aNAP
said by Time4aNAP:said by DaveDude:When Sprint merged with Nextel, they should have converted to GSM/3G, which has better economies of scale. Wait a minute. Are you seriously suggesting that Sprint throw away its far superior EV-DO equipment to buy GSM? That means replacing their entire infrastructure, and force all of their customers to buy new equipment, whether they want to or not? That would most certainly kill Sprint for good. What is it about Sprint that attracts you "plan to fail" types? EDIT: Precisely what "economies of scale"??? Lets see there are 2 Billion GSM users, and 3 million cdma users. Thats a significant economy of scale. The fact you can go into a store just about anywhere in the world and get a quad band phone that will work worldwide. 3Gsm(umts) is being added to just about every gsm network. So when all the nextel people who must buy new equipment, because of frequency changes, could be buying easily accessible sold worldwide handsets. Sprint should just forget Wimax and go HSUPA, at least in metro areas. Maybe they will get some roaming revenue. | |
| | | | | | en102Canadian, eh? join:2001-01-26 Valencia, CA |
en102
Member
2007-Jun-14 10:11 pm
Re: Ion.Well, its not quite as bad as 2billion GSM/UMTS to 3 million CDMA, however the difference is more than significant, plus the roaming arrangements.
GSM/UMTS (from 3Gamericas.org) = 2.5 billion CDMA (from cdg.org) 350 million. | |
| | | | | | | DaveDudeNo Fear join:1999-09-01 New Jersey |
Re: Ion.said by en102:Well, its not quite as bad as 2billion GSM/UMTS to 3 million CDMA, however the difference is more than significant, plus the roaming arrangements. GSM/UMTS (from 3Gamericas.org) = 2.5 billion CDMA (from cdg.org) 350 million. yes that is correct, i couldnt get to cdg (dns issues) but it was a bad guess, although gsmworld yesterday said 2.2 billion. But there is a significant difference. | |
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| | | | | Time4aNAP Premium Member join:2007-04-09 Des Plaines, IL |
to DaveDude
said by DaveDude:Lets see there are 2 Billion GSM users, and 3 million cdma users. Thats a significant economy of scale. No...those are just two suspiciously round numbers. What orifice did you pull them out of? Don't you know what economy of scale means? The fact you can go into a store just about anywhere in the world and get a quad band phone that will work worldwide... ...has nothing at all to do with this topic. 3Gsm(umts) is being added to just about every gsm network. So when all the nextel people who must buy new equipment, because of frequency changes... Whoa there! What new equipment? What frequency changes? Who's getting the existing frequencies? could be buying easily accessible sold worldwide handsets. Sprint should just forget Wimax and go HSUPA, at least in metro areas. Maybe they will get some roaming revenue. So precisely how will this benefit Sprint in any way? Has it still not dawned on you that Sprint has no GSM infrastructure? By what stretch of the imagination do you believe that Sprint could possibly recoup the massive capital investment necessary to build a completely different physical plant (from scratch, no less)? "Maybe they will get some roaming revenue" is not a business plan! | |
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to inteller
said by inteller:Sprint ION was way ahead of its time. It only failed because people didn't completely understand what it could do. I hate to be the idiot here, but what, exactly was Sprint ION? Yeah, I too can't see Clearwire being a very good investor; as someone else said, most likely Sprint will just purchase them some day (can you say WiMAX Monopoly? :P). Anyway, maybe they'll try to get Embarq to fund them; hey, Sprint screwed over their landline division once before... | |
| | | Time4aNAP Premium Member join:2007-04-09 Des Plaines, IL |
Re: Ion.Sprint ION is a technically successful wireless Internet delivery system that has been around for a half-dozen years. It works, no doubt about it. It's simpler and easier to deploy than Canopy, and a lot less costly. It could have been a raging success if not for the people within the Sprint organization who are determined to keep the company from making big money. | |
| | | | intellerSociopaths always win. join:2003-12-08 Tulsa, OK |
Re: Ion.ION != to Sprint's MMDS. Get your shit straight. | |
| | | | | Time4aNAP Premium Member join:2007-04-09 Des Plaines, IL |
Time4aNAP
Premium Member
2007-Jun-14 11:02 pm
Re: Ion.said by inteller:ION != to Sprint's MMDS. Get your shit straight. Pardon me? MMDS? We're talking about wireless ISP connections here, not wireless cable TV! Take your own advice. While you're at it, learn some manners. | |
| | | | | | intellerSociopaths always win. join:2003-12-08 Tulsa, OK |
Re: Ion.no, you are talking about wireless ISP connections, I'm talking about sprint ION, ATM switched networking to the premise. It was FIOS before there was FIOS (in concept, not actually fiber)
ION was a service that combined DSL, phone, fax into one devices. similiar to what Homezone does today (minus the TV)
The relavance of this is that Sprint was always on the cutting edge of things, just like with WiMax. however, back then they were an upstart and investors let them get away with highly experimental technologies. Not these days. If investors see risk, like they do with WiMax, they pull the plug. | |
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| Time4aNAP Premium Member join:2007-04-09 Des Plaines, IL |
to inteller
said by inteller:Sprint ION was way ahead of its time. It only failed because people didn't completely understand what it could do. Bull. I heard the news of Sprint ION while I was in a backwater town (as far as Internet access goes) in Arkansas, and immediately rushed to place my order. At the time I had a beautiful line of sight path to their antenna atop the Sears Tower. I thought that I was set. I have never heard so many excuses why the installer allegedly couldn't set me up. My plan was to locate my antenna on the inside of a window with the great view. "No that won't work" they said. Bull. The STL antenna for one of the TV stations that I worked for was mounted behind a window inside of the Sears Tower, no less! When I secured permission for roof access, they balked again, citing liability issues, with the potential for high winds to tear loose their cabling. Never mind the fact that the existing MATV cabling had been there for decades with no such problems. The bottom line is that Sprint, or whoever Sprint hired to do the installations, was absolutely determined to prevent the deployment of this product. After three months of bogus excuses for not signing me up, they nailed the lid on their own coffin by claiming that I "was too late", that they had saturated the market already. When I pointed out that I was literally the first person in this market to apply for service, they had no reply. Later on Sprint announced that ION service was discontinued. Imagine my surprise when, years later I befriended a satisfied ION customer whose allegedly "terminated" ION service was still going strong, with no end in sight. I'm reminded of a TV commercial that used a line "we didn't plan to fail; we just failed to plan." Well somebody at Sprint is hard at work, planning on making Sprint fail. I wish that someone would find the jackass and fire him. | |
| | | intellerSociopaths always win. join:2003-12-08 Tulsa, OK |
Re: Ion.you sir, are an idiot. ION was not a wireless technology. | |
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ropeguru Premium Member join:2001-01-25 Mechanicsville, VA |
ropeguru
Premium Member
2007-Jun-14 9:40 am
Maybe...They should have kept trials going with the technology Nextel had started using. Seems to me it had excellent speeds and, most importantly, low latencies. But, no, they had to nix it immediately because it was Nextel's project and what Sprint already had in the works was apparently sooooo much better. | |
| | Time4aNAP Premium Member join:2007-04-09 Des Plaines, IL |
Re: Maybe...said by ropeguru:They should have kept trials going with the technology Nextel had started using. What technology? That's news to me! Seems to me it had excellent speeds and, most importantly, low latencies. Hold on, you just said that that it was only in the testing stage. How would you know how well it would work? In contrast, Sprint's EV-DO is here, now, in production. And it works very well. WTF??? But, no, they had to nix it immediately because it was Nextel's project and what Sprint already had in the works was apparently sooooo much better. Ah...do you mean to say "because it is Motorola's proprietary (and co$tly) technology"? And yes, an existing mobile data system that's working right now is far superior than a proposed one that's not working at all. | |
| | | ropeguru Premium Member join:2001-01-25 Mechanicsville, VA |
ropeguru
Premium Member
2007-Jun-14 1:42 pm
Re: Maybe...Here is a link to what Nextel was testing so you know what I am talking about: » www.theregister.co.uk/20 ··· oadband/And here is an article from the time here on DSLR explaining speeds and the lower latency: » 3G Killer?While I was referring to Sprint's plans to offer WiMax, of which Sprint's current EV-DO has NOTHING to do with, you had to bring up something irrelavent. Additionally you are mixing the three technologies (OFDM, EV-DO, and WiMax) into this post. While I agree that EV-DO should stay as it is tested and proven, by now, OFDM would have been tested and ether proven or rejected even though WiMax hasn't hardly been looked at. | |
| | | | Time4aNAP Premium Member join:2007-04-09 Des Plaines, IL 2 edits |
Re: Maybe...said by ropeguru:Here is a link to what Nextel was testing so you know what I am talking about...And here is an article from the time here on DSLR explaining speeds and the lower latency... Is this the full extent of your knowledge of the subject? You are aware that we're talking about Sprint, not Verizon, right? All I see is a single number claim for latency in one (very) limited deployment situation. What I don't see are numbers for Sprint's EV-DO latency. How can you claim "lower latency" without making any comparison? While I was referring to Sprint's plans to offer WiMax, of which Sprint's current EV-DO has NOTHING to do with, you had to bring up something irrelavent. Let's see...EV-DO is a wireless mobile data service, and WiMAX is a standard for a wireless mobile data service. Yup, like night and day, they are. Additionally you are mixing the three technologies (OFDM, EV-DO, and WiMax) into this post. You're accusing me of making you write what you did in your post? That's the lamest ad hominem attack that I've ever read! While I agree that EV-DO should stay as it is tested and proven, by now, OFDM would have been tested and ether proven or rejected even though WiMax hasn't hardly been looked at. I don't understand your obsession with OFDM. Sure, it works. It's the modulation scheme of choice for 802.11g and many DSL systems. But what does that have to do with the price of tea in China? So Nextel set up a "WISP the hard way" test in one small market three years ago. Big deal. Is this a good reason to abandon a perfectly good network? Hardly. Is it a good business move? Well, they had to give away the service in NC... The question is why Sprint should resurrect this project? Its data rates are no better than those of EV-DO Rev. A. And unless you consider the big, heavy Nextel handsets an "advantage", there's really nothing compelling about Nextel's old test mule. Sprint already has EV-DO for now, and, if nobody spoils it first, will have WiMAX for the future. | |
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Reality is setting inSprint is a company that is in trouble. They have entirely too many irons in the fire and they don't really know what to do with any of them. They still don't have a clue how to run the iDEN network nor how to deal with the iDEN customer base. They continue to expend tons of resources on deploying EVDO (which makes little sense to me if you tell everyone you're going to be building out a WiMAX network next year that is going to obsolete your EVDO network), there is still no clear marketing message, and on and on. Investors are right to be worried, this is a company that has only proved one thing: it cannot execute on anything. I know I'll get bashed by the Sprint faithful, but please understand I'm just telling you the facts of life. I have been saying for quite a while now that Sprint WiMAX wasn't going to materialize, or, at least not as it was being presented, so I'm not surprised to see these headlines starting to show up.
When you're only highlight in quarterly results is that your prepaid unit is growing like gangbusters, you've got a problem. | |
| | CMoore2004 Premium Member join:2003-02-06 Jonesville, MI |
Re: Reality is setting inThe EVDO will likely still be the high-speed technology in phones. I'm not expecting to see my phone with WiMax capabilities. | |
| | | Time4aNAP Premium Member join:2007-04-09 Des Plaines, IL |
Re: Reality is setting insaid by CMoore2004:The EVDO will likely still be the high-speed technology in phones. I'm not expecting to see my phone with WiMax capabilities. Why not? The whole point of WiMAX is mobility. That's the one and only selling point for WiMAX over existing point to point radio standards. Wouldn't it be foolish to squander that? | |
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pepe675935
Anon
2007-Jun-14 6:42 pm
Re: Reality is setting inNot exactly. WiMax will be mostly used on the back end initially, especially in areas where you need big data pipes for extra capacity. There's more money in that right away. Later on I could see it being competitive with other wireless technologies. It won't be profitable in less densely populated areas either, unfortunately. That's where the shareholders need to take heed- they are correct in hesitating to support another technology that would marginalize the EVDO user base. | |
| | | | | Time4aNAP Premium Member join:2007-04-09 Des Plaines, IL |
Time4aNAP
Premium Member
2007-Jun-15 12:20 am
Re: Reality is setting insaid by pepe675935 :
Not exactly. WiMax will be mostly used on the back end initially, especially in areas where you need big data pipes for extra capacity. Back end as in back haul? Call me dense, but how can WiMAX do that cost-effectively when there's so much unused fiber already in-place? Their claimed data rates, which tend to be over-optimistic, of less than 100 Mbps don't say "fat pipe" to me at all. Not when existing, mass-produced point to point radios deliver 100 Mbps inexpensively, and 10 GigE is readily available in configurations from 50 feet to 50 miles. What am I missing here? Later on I could see it being competitive with other wireless technologies. You'd better tell that to the WiMAX trade groups, because they're already marketing their product as direct competition to 3G wireless. Time will tell, I guess. I know that I'm not planning on giving up my EV-DO card unless and until Sprint terminates my service. Given their track record of keeping "discontinued" services living on long after their official deaths, but only if you're already signed up, that seems prudent. It won't be profitable in less densely populated areas either, unfortunately. That's where the shareholders need to take heed- they are correct in hesitating to support another technology that would marginalize the EVDO user base. IME Sprint has taken its own sweet time in rolling out EV-DO. But I've always been able to establish a 1xRTT data link wherever I can get a signal, which is ubiquitous in the most remote areas that I've driven through. I liken it to the ISDN service that I had before DSL became readily available. Sure beats the 19.2 kbps that my old StarTAC phone gave me! If Sprint can maintain a bare-minimum 1xRTT at every cell site, and fill in the gaps in EV-DO service over the next year to cover entire metropolitan areas, I'll be happy. If they manage to make that EV-DO Rev. A, I'll be thrilled. If they manage to get WiMAX service all the way out to where I live, and it's usable without requiring an external fixed antenna, AND the data rates with that configuration beat their EV-DO offering, I'll try it out. However I'm not holding my breath on the last one. It seems that too many of Sprint's voting shares are held by people who like to sell short, if you know what I mean. | |
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pepe675935
Anon
2007-Jun-15 10:17 am
Re: Reality is setting inCorrect me if I'm wrong, but I understood the basic premise as to install such WiMax equipment in areas that do not already have the fiber capacity. Yes, there is excess capacity but in this large country there are places where the redundancy would still be useful. And isn't a Wimax site efficient in the sense that a large number of users can be simultaneously connected w/o degradation in performance(?) | |
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to BillRoland
You are exactly right. Watch for Sprint to be gobbled up by Time Warner or Comcast when the stock goes low enough. | |
| | Time4aNAP Premium Member join:2007-04-09 Des Plaines, IL |
to BillRoland
said by BillRoland:They (Sprint) still don't have a clue how to run the iDEN network nor how to deal with the iDEN customer base. Hey. I'll give Nextel props for finding an innovative way to repurpose land mobile frequencies in order to compete with the fledgling AMPS cellular industry. That was a bold move. But let's face reality. Times have changed. IDEN is a last-ditch effort by Motorola to maintain Nextel as a cash cow. The technology is proprietary, non-interoperable and neither fish nor fowl. It combines all of the worst liabilities of non-cellular mobile telephony, TDMA and GSM, while offering absolutely no benefit whatsoever from either. (What good is a CIM when you must purchase your phone from a single vendor?) It should go away, and give those frequencies back to the land mobile market that needs them badly. They continue to expend tons of resources on deploying EVDO (which makes little sense to me if you tell everyone you're going to be building out a WiMAX network next year that is going to obsolete your EVDO network) Hold on there, chief. EV-DO has only recently begun to cover major metropolitan areas. Suburban and rural customers are still stuck with 1xRTT. Do you really think that WiMAX is going to just magically appear overnight, all debugged and ready for service? If so, you've been snorting too much WiMAX pixie dust. The fact of the matter is that EV-DO will still play a very important role in Sprint's mobile data services during the decade or so that it will realistically take to build out a WiMAX infrastructure. Let's not forget that, unlike EV-DO, WiMAX has yet to prove itself in the real world. Investors are right to be worried, this is a company that has only proved one thing: it cannot execute on anything. I know I'll get bashed by the Sprint faithful, but please understand I'm just telling you the facts of life. One of those facts of life that you have so conveniently glossed over is that it's the investors who control every publicly-held company. Maybe if Sprint's shareholders stopped pretending that they're venture capitalists (yes, I noticed the spin--"investors"), and let the professionals do what they're supposed to do, there would be no cause for concern. As it stands, their only cause for worry is the spoiled fruits of their own meddling. I have been saying for quite a while now that Sprint WiMAX wasn't going to materialize, or, at least not as it was being presented, so I'm not surprised to see these headlines starting to show up. That's a self-fulfilling prophecy. And it's precisely that kind of defeatist mindset perpetrated by clueless shareholders that has put Sprint in jeopardy. What I can't figure out is why so-called "investors" are so determined to lose their investments. I guess this is one case where ego has overpowered greed. | |
| | Michieru2zzz zzz zzz Premium Member join:2005-01-28 Miami, FL |
to BillRoland
More or less we all know Sprint has always done things half-assed.
Investors should be worried but more or less I would like some actual world tests of WiMAX in action to see if it even makes sense in the first place to deploy such a technology.
Sprint more or less jumped in the middle of the ring and punched everyone in the face and now is about to receiving a punch back from everyone else. | |
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| bmn? ? ?
join:2001-03-15 hiatus |
Most investors are stupid...The Sprint management needs to realize that most investors, like most of the population, are idiots. They want to invest their $100 or $1000 in the company, get their quick returns, and be done with it. They don't want to see ANY downward pulls on the stock due to things like capital expenditures because most of them aren't in it for the long term. Sprint need to pull a Verizon to tell the investors to simply f*ck off since most of them don't even know why WiMax is perfect for Sprint. | |
| calvoiper join:2003-03-31 Belvedere Tiburon, CA
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Confirmation of worst fears....This reluctance to move into new technologies just proves one of the worst fears of the Sprint/Nextel merger--that the telco heads from Sprint would eventually kill the entrepreneurial spirit of Nextel.
Face it--Nextel was scrappy, having cobbled together a viable cellular service alternative (back in the day when there were only two cellular carriers in any market) out of taxicab and business dispatch frequencies. Sprint, on the other hand, was run by a bunch of guys with wireline telco backgrounds who fell into the cellular business.
The toast is almost done. Next.
calvoiper | |
| ftthzIf love can kill hate can also save join:2005-10-17 |
ftthz
Member
2007-Jun-14 2:26 pm
hrm...if you know its the future for sprint than do it if your not that confident in your network just drop it... | |
| NOCManMadMacHatter Premium Member join:2004-09-30 Colorado Springs, CO |
NOCMan
Premium Member
2007-Jun-14 6:12 pm
Money Said Sprint Could Save20 billion dollars a year in network access fees if they used WiMax to backhaul their cellular networks in Major cities.
I agree. I've seen the technology deliver some big circuits very reliably and if deployed correctly it would be extremely fault tolerant. Something I'd love to see installed down South where microwave was one of the first things that brought communications back down into areas impacted by Katrina.
California as well uses tons of Microwave links to keep telecommunications going when earthquakes sever fiber and copper lines easily.
WiMax is just as capable and can haul larger circuits in point to point and multipoint setups.
Imagine how much money 20 billion dollars could buy or how much debt that could pay off. | |
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