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story category Should ISPs Be Piracy Police?
Belgian courts say yes in new European ruling...
(old news - 03:48PM Thursday Jul 05 2007)
tags: Fileswapping · business · content
A Belgian court has ruled that Belgian broadband ISP Scarlet Extended SA must block illegal file sharing on its network, which could set a broader European precedent if the entertainment industry gets its way. The ISP will supposedly be forced to start using Audible Magic technology to detect and stop transfers, though that technology isn't particularly effective when dealing with encrypted traffic.

ISPs have both a legal responsibility and the technical means to tackle piracy
-IFPI
The RIAA's global wing, the International Federation of the Phonographic Industry (IFPI) is very pleased by the ruling:
"This is an extremely significant ruling which bears out exactly what we have been saying for the last two years - that the internet’s gatekeepers, the ISPs, have a responsibility to help control copyright-infringing traffic on their networks. The court has confirmed that the ISPs have both a legal responsibility and the technical means to tackle piracy. This is a decision that we hope will set the mould for government policy and for courts in other countries in Europe and around the world."
While there have been no similar court rulings in the States yet, the nation's largest ISP (AT&T) recently announced they'd voluntarily be fighting network piracy. Piracy has been the not-so-quiet killer app that's been driving broadband adoption globally for years, so ISPs throttle traffic to conserve bandwidth, but they aren't inclined to want to lock down distribution completely.

Related:
  1. Sony Pictures CEO: The Internet Is Stupid
  2. New RIAA Plan Going Nowhere Fast
  3. Jamie Thomas Guilty -- A Song's Worth $80,000
  4. Music Industry Wants ISPs To Adhere To Nonexistent Laws
  5. Confirmed: Pirate Bay to Charge Users
  6. Nobody's Complaining About Comcast's New Throttling
  7. Download The Pirate Bay Before It's Gone
  8. ISPs Ramping Up P2P Warnings
Forums » Should ISPs Be Piracy Police?
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Post a:

dadkins
Can you do Blu?
Premium,MVM
join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA
·Comcast

Hmmm...

"Piracy has been the not-so-quiet killer app that's been driving broadband adoption..."

Piracy?
Anyone got a link to the most current version of "Piracy"?

I'd like to take it for a spin.
--
Think outside the Fox... Opera
utahluge

join:2004-10-14
Draper, UT

Re: Hmmm...

What drives me nuts is when I try to download an ISO (for example) from my work and I get throttled (as I KNOW how much speed we get on our 3 load balanced T1's) because we are moving 'pirated' traffic due to file extensions and such!!
Done_Posting
Shoot to kill
Premium
join:2003-08-22
Toledo, OH
·buckeye cable

Re: Hmmm...

said by utahluge See Profile :

What drives me nuts is when I try to download an ISO (for example) from my work and I get throttled (as I KNOW how much speed we get on our 3 load balanced T1's) because we are moving 'pirated' traffic due to file extensions and such!!
I can't believe I'm saying this, but I completely side with you based on the facts you've given. Typically I could give a care less if a broadband user gets throttled, but your case is different. With broadband you are paying for a shared resource that is subject to lots of rules and conditions, but a T1 should have no such restrictions. With a T1, the bandwidth is yours to use as you see fit, so I'd be on the phone with your account executive right away if I were you.

At my company we don't even have the ability to shape traffic on the T1's or other larger fixed circuits we provide; they completely bypass the shapers that our cable modems are fed through. The only thing we can do is set your overall speed limit based on your service level. The rest is yours to do with as you please.

Man... who the heck are you using for your bonded T1's?

- Tate

--
Happiness is an OC-48 in your basement...
utahluge

join:2004-10-14
Draper, UT

Re: Hmmm...

Its not the T1 side that is throttled. Its my 10Mb fiber connection. I can go off and download 5 other ISO's from mirros and get my full bandwidth but a single connection is slowwwwed down.
Done_Posting
Shoot to kill
Premium
join:2003-08-22
Toledo, OH
·buckeye cable

Re: Hmmm...

said by utahluge See Profile :

Its not the T1 side that is throttled. Its my 10Mb fiber connection. I can go off and download 5 other ISO's from mirrors and get my full bandwidth but a single connection is slowwwwed down.
Ahhh, okay. That makes more sense. If I'm understanding correctly now, you're attempting to download your ISO's from work using a 10Mbps fiber connection located off site. Is the fiber connection residential (Utopia?), or is it an SLA'ed business circuit? If it's an SLA'ed business circuit then I still side with you. If it's residential "best effort" broadband then all bets are off.

Can you describe the scenario in a little more detail? Are you using some sort of P2P to transfer the ISO's from the bonded T1 connection to the fiber connection or what? How slow are your throttled transfers, Kbps / Mbps wise?

Assuming we are talking about a 10Mbps Utopia residential connection, I can still understand your frustration. It's probably BPON or GPON fiber, so it's got massive bandwidth potential. Unlike a cable modem, where shaping is necessary to provide fair service to everyone, it's hard to understand why your fiber would still be throttled. The only thing I can think of is that your ISP is trying to limit their WAN costs.

Kinda sucks, but it's only what -- $50 / month?

- Tate

--
Happiness is an OC-48 in your basement...
utahluge

join:2004-10-14
Draper, UT
·Comcast

Re: Hmmm...

I get speeds of about 250k-300k. It is straight off the server via http. It is residential.... but on iProvo (basically Utopia but iProvo built there own network out). I guess I can't complain to much as I talked to them about what services I can run and they told me I can run whatever I want (they didn't even care!).

Ya, only $40 / month!
Done_Posting
Shoot to kill
Premium
join:2003-08-22
Toledo, OH
·buckeye cable

Re: Hmmm...

said by utahluge See Profile :

I get speeds of about 250k-300k. It is straight off the server via http. It is residential.... but on iProvo (basically Utopia but iProvo built there own network out). I guess I can't complain to much as I talked to them about what services I can run and they told me I can run whatever I want (they didn't even care!).

Ya, only $40 / month!
Sounds like a great ISP to me! You can't beat a 10/10 connection for $40, at least not around these parts. For comparison, I want to say an unrestricted 10/10 ether (over GPON) circuit runs around $1K / month through my company, as long as we have fiber near you.

On a side note, have you tried SSH or VPN to retrieve the ISO's over your setup? I would imagine that as long as you have decently fast machines on both ends you should be able to saturate your first bottleneck (probably the combined upstream bandwidth of the T1's). It's worth a try if you haven't done so already.

- Tate

--
Happiness is an OC-48 in your basement...

guitarzan
Premium
join:2004-05-04
Skytop, PA
·epix

Dadkins, is the killer app "piracy" in beta form or has their been an RC final version?

Google has not returned any hits for such an app.

I hear ya on taking it for a spin

Wonder if its backwards compatible with FAT32 or solely NTFS.
--
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justbits
More fiber than ATT can handle
Premium
join:2003-01-08
Chicago, IL
·AT&T Midwest

Piracy has been driving broadband adoption? Since when did the porn industry lose popularity?

If someone is going to start identifying "killer apps", maybe they better start tracking down the Internet traffic that is the most dangerous first. In that regard, both spam and the exploit/malware industry are the Internet "killer apps" that make casual broadband adoption dangerous.

MrMoody
But the Grinch ... did Not.

join:2002-09-03
Smithfield, NC
The MPAA has a piracy killer app but the site was taken down already. :P Sony put one on their music CDs for a while, maybe you can find one.

postterr

@telus.net
Why stop at blocking... they should just ban the use of the internet. Cause you never know what someone might d/l. They might find a way to be sneaky *LOL*
pimpinparker

join:2005-06-14
North Baltimore, OH
Should ISPs Be Piracy Police?
no

texans20
Weapons of Masturbation
Premium
join:2002-09-28
Texas!
clubs:

No

In my opinion, ISP records should be treated like health records, I'd love to see a law similar to HIPAA for ISPs. As far as blocking piracy, no technology can do that. The way it is setup now, Time Warner has no way of knowing if I'm downloading a movie or currently VPN into the office. Forcing the ISPs to police the internet will drive up costs, and lead us down a slippery slope I don't want to go on.

As it is, Bush's cronies want my ISP to store every website I visit, every IM I get/send, and every e-mail I get/send as well.
--
The true patriot is motivated by a sense of responsibility, and out of self interest -- for himself, his family, and the future of his country -- to resist government abuse of power. He rejects the notion that patriotism means obedience to the state.

Siryak

join:2005-11-26
·WildBlue

Re: No

I agree. This will do nothing, but drive up cost. As much as it is going to kill them they are going to haft to realize that you CAN NOT STOP PIRACY! There will ALWAYS be a work around. Basically all this is, is the RIAA wants someone else to fight their battles for them.
--
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KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
·AT&T Yahoo
·AT&T DSL Service
·Cox HSI

Loss of Safe Harbor = end to Internet

Seriously. If ISP's are forced to start policing users to make sure that nothing they do is illegal, offends anyone, or violates corporate rules, then we are screwed and the internet is basically done.

The chilling effect this would have on speech alone is enough reason to stop it. Imagine users getting blacklisted for posting true stories to sites like the BBB or Epinions or even here on BBR simply because the companies involved don't like negative publicity and threaten to sue the ISP.

Good move Belgium, you're opening the floodgates to setting your citizens as second class in the modern age.
--
"Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!)

TKJunkMail
Enjoy the sun
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join:2002-03-03
Avalon, NJ
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
·Comcast

Re: Loss of Safe Harbor = end to Internet

said by KrK See Profile :

Seriously. If ISP's are forced to start policing users to make sure that nothing they do is illegal, offends anyone, or violates corporate rules, then we are screwed and the internet is basically done.

For 95% of the users, they will notice no change at all. Only those pushing the envelope or always looking to get something for nothing will be inconvenienced.
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KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
·AT&T Yahoo
·AT&T DSL Service
·Cox HSI

Re: Loss of Safe Harbor = end to Internet

said by TKJunkMail See Profile :

For 95% of the users, they will notice no change at all. Only those pushing the envelope or always looking to get something for nothing will be inconvenienced.
I disagree. Perhaps when it comes to illegal activities, true. But when it comes to offending someone, or, annoying a Corporation by posting something they view as negative, you'll find the pool of prospective "victims" grows a lot.

The problem is that ISP's, if they can be held liable, will have to try to preempt such activity. IE they won't be able to afford to "wait" until a user does something wrong, they will have to take steps to try and block and prevent access to anything deemed illegal/offensive/improper etc

This would affect everyone, including the 100% perfect legal straight laced types.

It would be a disaster.
--
"Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!)

swhx7
Premium
join:2006-07-23
Elbonia
·RoadRunner Cable

Re: Loss of Safe Harbor = end to Internet

You are correct. This has always been the sound basis of the "common carrier" principle.

The "common carrier" principle started at least as early as railroad law in the 19th century U.S.. The deal was that the carrier would lack the right to police what comes and goes (except as necessary to run the service), and in exchange they would not be held liable for contraband or criminals, etc.. Later it was applied to telephone companies. It's obviously a good rule for ISPs for reasons you mention.

If this ISP does end up having to implement and filtering (after any appeals, etc.), the practicalities of it are going to kick them in the be a problem. They'll first have to run *all* the traffic, gigabytes per second, thru some device without slowing all the subscribers' connections unacceptably. Then they have to avoid false positives (which would mean lawsuits in USA) and try to catch a good percentage of offenders. The latter depends on the capabilities of the Audible Magic which frankly seems a bit dubious to me.

And the whole thing will be defeated by encryption. Or are they going to ban VPNs, SSL, SSH, etc.?

The only good news is it's only one ISP for now, and soon, hopefully, the courts will see that this is the wrong approach.
WTJ

join:2004-01-30
Anchorage, AK

95% huh?

Well, the aggressive marketing of crippled ISP's
may create a high double digit percentage of customers
who have no idea how to download
even the weekly DAT file to their virus protection,
but how long do you think these "customers"
will keep shelling out for "Hi-speed bundles"?

The paperweight stored in the corner or the chic laptop in the closet
fills its taskbar and fragments it's drive to a crawl VERY QUICKLY.

Who's going to pay high monthly fees
to check email that's mostly SPAM?
Chat room novelty wears off
as children become adults and pedophiles get caught.

Fashion is fleeting.
Done_Posting
Shoot to kill
Premium
join:2003-08-22
Toledo, OH

Re: Loss of Safe Harbor = end to Internet

Is this supposed to be a Haiku poem or something?

- Tate

--
Happiness is an OC-48 in your basement...

Piggie
I Actually use Windstream
Premium
join:2005-11-23
Orange Springs, FL
·HughesNet Satellit..
·Windstream

said by TKJunkMail See Profile :

said by KrK See Profile :

Seriously. If ISP's are forced to start policing users to make sure that nothing they do is illegal, offends anyone, or violates corporate rules, then we are screwed and the internet is basically done.

For 95% of the users, they will notice no change at all. Only those pushing the envelope or always looking to get something for nothing will be inconvenienced.
Here we go again, I am and most people are so clean that what they are stopping is all illegal traffic.

First they came for the communists.......
--
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Kearnstd
Elf Wizard
Premium
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ

what if traffic monitoring does effect network performance. for example MMO and FPS perfomance on the net is far more important then policing the packets because one major reason people get BB is for gaming. heck the ISPs even tout the higher gaming performance of their DSL or Cable HSI, so hurting that to make the Media Mafia happy would be worse then giving the said mafia the finger.
--
[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports

Raptor
Not a Dumptruck

join:2001-10-21
London, ON
·Rogers Hi-Speed
·Bell Sympatico

Pointless to fight it...

Double edged for the ISPs in a way. They have to pay to fight it, yet possibly lose customers since that's why many people want high speed access. Take that away and...?

Maybe they should get with the times and develop a viable solution to a problem that simply can't just be squelched.

But all that aside, in all likelihood, ISPs won't be able to keep up with the evolving piracy game of cat and mouse...they'd better hop on board or get out of the way.
--
....where's my fiber?

Mactron
el camino Real
Premium
join:2001-12-16
CM94sv

The list...

The list of places I'm glad I don't live in just doubled.
AT&Ts footprint and now Belgium.
Why does an ISP have to do the **AAs dirty work?
Two bank robbers discuss their bank job on the phone and the Telcos not liable. How is this different? Nuts, this is just nuts !
--
If only the Verizon CSRs worked this well.
dentman42

join:2001-10-02
Columbus, OH
·AT&T Midwest

Re: The list...

said by Mactron See Profile :

The list of places I'm glad I don't live in just doubled.
AT&Ts footprint and now Belgium.
Why does an ISP have to do the **AAs dirty work?
Two bank robbers discuss their bank job on the phone and the Telcos not liable. How is this different? Nuts, this is just nuts !
Umm...last I checked, Belgium is not in ATT's footprint. So how did your list double?

cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN

Re: The list...

said by dentman42 See Profile :

said by Mactron See Profile :

The list of places I'm glad I don't live in just doubled.
AT&Ts footprint and now Belgium.
Umm...last I checked, Belgium is not in ATT's footprint. So how did your list double?
His list consisted of one place, AT&T's footprint. He added a second place, Belgium. His list had 1, but now it has 2. If you double 1, you get 2. Therefor his list of places he's glad he doesn't live in just doubled.

If you need further help, feel free to ask a 1st grader.
--
Go Colts

TKJunkMail
Enjoy the sun
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Avalon, NJ
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
·Comcast

IFPI is not doing RIAA bidding

»Should ISPs Be Piracy Police?
The RIAA's global wing, the International Federation of the Phonographic Industry (IFPI)
The RIAA is a member of the IFPI, not the other way around. »www.ifpi.org/content/section_lin···ons.html

IFPI represents the recording industry worldwide with some 1400 members in 75 countries and affiliated industry associations in 49 countries.
So, it isn't the RIAA giving the IFPI their marching orders. Believe it or not, music companies worldwide have the same concerns about people using their music without paying for it. It isn't just the RIAA that thinks that way.
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johndoe303

join:2003-01-01
Boca Raton, FL

Piracy Police ie. Privacy Pumblers

If they can't listen to my phone calls without protocol then they shouldn't be able to view my packets either.
--
WRTSL54GS v2 + WRT54G v2

ftthz
If love can kill hate can also save

join:2005-10-17

thought isp fall under common carrier laws

...not their job

xerxes3642

join:2006-02-24
Saint Charles, MO
·Charter Pipeline

not only piracy

but according to yesterdays reports, they also have to look out for anyone making a parody works of corporations as well. Maybe they will add people who download porn deemed "offensive". And as with China, they could also be made to censor dissident sentiments.

First they came for the pirates...
MJRudzik

join:2002-01-13
Independence, MO

I say give the music industry a taste of their own medicine

This isp should at least for a time long enough to the the point accross block ALL entertainment idustry sites with the statement that since they must now block pirated content and there is no reliable way to descern the difference between legit music and pirated content that they music industry is now off the web and feruse to put them back until they give up this stupid crusade.

Siryak

join:2005-11-26
·WildBlue

Re: I say give the music industry a taste of their own medicine

said by MJRudzik See Profile :

This isp should at least for a time long enough to the the point accross block ALL entertainment idustry sites with the statement that since they must now block pirated content and there is no reliable way to descern the difference between legit music and pirated content that they music industry is now off the web and feruse to put them back until they give up this stupid crusade.
LOL! I would love to see that!
--
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Shamayim
I already have a Messiah.
Premium
join:2002-09-23

Sweep out that room

looks like AT&T will be using it after all.

»www.wired.com/science/discoverie···04/70619
--
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GoToJailNOW

@comcast.net


thumbs down from:
pb5k See Profile

BUY A CLUE !

Society and the judicial systems(s) are not going to stand by and allow Pirates to steal without being punished. Legislators and the judicial system are not going to allow ISPs to knowingly facility theft by Pirates. This IS reality theater.

Time to get real and buy a clue.

xerxes3642

join:2006-02-24
Saint Charles, MO

Re: BUY A CLUE !

is this the same judicial system that fills jails with weed smokers?
dentman42

join:2001-10-02
Columbus, OH
Hi, Taylor. Where ya been the last few weeks?

Time to get real and quit posting anonymously. (We all know you couldn't afford a clue)

SRFireside

join:2001-01-19
Houston, TX
Tsk tsk... not a single reference to prison rape (or even prison for that matter). Taylor you have been doing this TOO long. We can tell you're tired. Go ahead. Take a break. Maybe try using poems in your flames or something different.

U R Funny

@rhsnet.org

said by GoToJailNOW :

Society and the judicial systems(s) are not going to stand by and allow Pirates to steal without being punished. Legislators and the judicial system are not going to allow ISPs to knowingly facility theft by Pirates. This IS reality theater.

Time to get real and buy a clue.
Actually, I would beg to differ. This IS the same judicial system and society that tolerates drunk drivers getting off free and clear of murder charges. This is the same system that knowingly allows for drug trafficking and illegal immigration across our boarders. The list goes on, but you get the idea.

Why should this be any different?

Rejected One
I Suffer From Id10t Errors
Premium
join:2003-07-31
Wilmington, DE
clubs:
·Juno Express

how would they..

i dont know everything about the net and how it works but if they wanted to stop piracy wouldn't they have to block all protocols

IRC - tons of files available here
Http - many sites that post files down loadable through this
FTP - many sites have file servers posted hosting pirated software etc..
Bit torrent - many legal and illegal files here. most games now a days use bit torrent for content updates, patches etc..

i heard they would filter by file being downloaded. now if im not mistaken wouldn't just reaming defeat this ? if a vid file or audio file wouldn't re-encoding defeat it as well? like avi converted to wma or vob.

the cost to ISPs wouldn't just go up it will landslide to others that offer updates, patches and or programs to the masses since they will need to absorb the cost of their isp rates going up.
--
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ARGONAUT
got ping?

join:2006-01-24
New Albany, IN

pass the buck

Should ISPs Be Piracy Police? No

That's no different than asking the highway department to stop all drug trafficking.
--
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bmn
? ? ?
Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus

Surprise...

If this becomes the case, just watch, over night the use of encryption on the net will skyrocket. ISPs don't have the computing resources to crack most of the encryption algorithms out there in real time in order to catch and stop encrypted packets. So, all the really determined pirates have to do is encrypt away.
--
Prove it...
Save the Internet Time (NTP) service, use the pool.

See 6 replies to this post
Desdinova

join:2003-01-26
Gaithersburg, MD

Do Unto Others...

I think this is truly an excellent idea!! The ISP's should definitely be held accountable for any contributions they make to an illegal act. And accordingly, I expect the RIAA to also be held accountable for any illegal acts THEY contribute to. That means that any time someone commits a murder or abuses a controlled substance and can prove they listened to any RIAA product that had lyrics condoning such acts, the RIAA will pay half of all fees and fines and RIAA representatives will concurrently serve any prison sentences. After all, they only want a level playing field and for folks to take responsibility for their actions, right?

See? They CAN be reasonable!!

Plasticman
Will Work For Bandwidth
Premium
join:2002-09-06
Harrisville, RI
clubs:
·Cox HSI

Re: Do Unto Others...

But if they do put that type of blocking in place. How will it know if the files you are downloading are legal or not. And what happens if it blocks leagally downloaded material or freeware/public domian type files?

Plasticman
--
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PolarBear
The bear formerly known as aaron8301
Premium
join:2005-01-03
·CableOne

Another (bad?) analogy

Saying ISPs are responsible for stopping illegal file transfer is like saying the construction company that built the road is responsible for stopping drunk drivers. It's like saying the carpenter that built my house is responsible for making sure I don't make meth in it.

ISP stands for Internet Service Provider. As such, an ISP should do just that: provide internet service. Not provide policing services or babysitting services or investigative services. INTERNET service. Period.
--
A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any other invention, with the possible exceptions of handguns and Tequilla. -- Mitch Ratcliffe
wispagod

join:2001-06-28
House Springs, MO

Re: Another (bad?) analogy

so does that mean i can just wipe my a** with all them DMCA letters charter sends me in the mail? aperently they filter and monitor allready!

PolarBear
The bear formerly known as aaron8301
Premium
join:2005-01-03
·CableOne

Re: Another (bad?) analogy

said by wispagod See Profile :

so does that mean i can just wipe my a** with all them DMCA letters charter sends me in the mail?
HELL NO! It will seriously chafe your bum! Use Charmin; much better on the cheeks.

Instead, use those letters to start fires in your stove/fireplace (just not this week; it is 100f here)! Save 'em up, you'll be good to go all winter long.
--
A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any other invention, with the possible exceptions of handguns and Tequilla. -- Mitch Ratcliffe
Done_Posting
Shoot to kill
Premium
join:2003-08-22
Toledo, OH
·buckeye cable

said by wispagod See Profile :

so does that mean i can just wipe my a** with all them DMCA letters charter sends me in the mail? aperently they filter and monitor allready!
Charter has nothing to do with your (alleged) piracy. They're simply fulfilling their legal obligation to notify you when another third party has caught you doing something they feel is illegal. The folks at Charter don't proactively watch your connection and say "Uh oh, Hellgod is doing something he probably shouldn't be doing... let's create a shit-ton of paperwork and headaches for ourselves and start sending him DMCA letters even though we can't be held liable for what he does on our network."

Having been on the ISP side of hundreds of DMCA complaints, trust me when I say that your provider has no more desire to deal with DMCA bullshit than you do.

- Tate

--
Happiness is an OC-48 in your basement...
Forums » Should ISPs Be Piracy Police?


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