 RayW
Premium
join:2001-09-01
Layton, UT
clubs: | Can any Warcraft users report what the usage is? It would be interesting to see what TW considers high usage.
Peak and average would be nice (using something like AnalogX Netstat Live).
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I am not lost, I find myself every time. | |
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 | nokiatech
join:2000-10-18
Stuart, FL
 ·Comcast
| Re: Can any Warcraft users report what the usage is? WoW requires very little actual bandwidth. It's the latency that matters. There are many who live near their west coast servers that play with no issue on dialup connections. You can do it from the east coast but latencies tend to rise quickly.
Grandma downloading pictures of the grandkids is using much more bandwidth then a wow player. | |
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Cabal
Premium
join:2007-01-21
Boston, MA
| WoW uses less than 5 KB/s up or down at any given time while playing (as noted, latency is critical). BitTorrent-based patching will use a lot more, obviously, but I doubt that's relevant here.
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Anonymous posts are ignored. If you wish to be heard, speak for yourself.
Interested in open source engine management for your Subaru? | |
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S_engineer
join:2007-05-16
Chicago, IL | Wait a second............... Its not like they're picking on a particular game, wouldnt they would have to be looking at consistent bandwith usage to consider someone a "hog"?
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Burn a tire, but make sure you buy that carbon offset! | |
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justin
Australian
join:1999-05-28
Brooklyn, NY
Host:
IPv6
Business Connectiv..
Home/Office setup ..
Console/Handheld g..
Console Tech
1 edit | Re: Can any Warcraft users report what the usage is? As a past TWC new york subscriber that was always connected to jersey over ssh so noticed latency issues with every keystroke my money is on the usual suspect: overloaded nodes. People don't notice that so much unless they are in a game where lag is immediately visible. Then it becomes very noticeable.
Maybe 1 out 100 "average" web users would bother to report congestion to tech support (if that!) but I can imagine 50 out of 100 WOW addicts gnashing their teeth and documenting every jump in latency. | |
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edhalen
orange whip?
Premium
join:2002-05-16
Yorkville, IL
clubs: | Re: Can any Warcraft users report what the usage is? You got it right. Overloaded nodes.
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Peace | |
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Omega
Displaced Ohioan
Premium
join:2002-07-30
Cheyenne, WY
clubs:  | Don't stand between a WoW addict and his game.... Things could get ugly!
But there is no reason that any gaming traffic should be shaped in anyway. It hardly takes up any bandwidth, it just requires a good ping. | |
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texans20
Weapons of Masturbation
Premium
join:2002-09-28
Texas!
clubs:
| Queue Net Neutrality Debate Now I wait for a lot of people who know nothing about net neutrality to scream bloody murder. Instead of waiting for the government to fix your problem, call Time Warner! Every time you call, they loose money. Better yet, switch ISPs. I understand not all places have an alternative, but most do. I live in a podunk town and I have access to Time Warner, AT&T, at the AT&T lines give me access to a few other ISPs like Earthlink.
I'll give you a hint though, a network neutrality law will not solve any problems. What it will do is cause a price rise as the companies are forced to subsidize the price of the heavy users by making the light users pay more. I have not had a price increase on Road Runner service since I started it several years ago, and I don't want one to pay for people who feel they can download 24/7.
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The true patriot is motivated by a sense of responsibility, and out of self interest -- for himself, his family, and the future of his country -- to resist government abuse of power. He rejects the notion that patriotism means obedience to the state. | |
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| | deepblackmag
join:2004-12-27
00000
| Re: Queue Net Neutrality Debate There is no debate. Companies will prioritize traffic based on information available to them in realtime. That means to defeat all everybody has to do is start using IPSEC and the bloody problem will solve itself. Now just try getting everybody to enable that so we can have a truly open internet again lol. | |
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texans20
Weapons of Masturbation
Premium
join:2002-09-28
Texas!
clubs:
| said by PhoenixDown  :The trouble is many people don't have alternative broadband connections. I live in nyc and yet my only option for broadband is TWC. I hate to imagine the scenario in smaller towns. I think the real answer to the issue is legitimate competition. If people had a legitimate second or third choice for providers, then issues like packet shaping and net neutrality will be solved via the market place. You are 100% correct. Thus, we don't need to patch the broken system by net neutrality, lets drop some of the stupid regulations to foster the free market.
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The true patriot is motivated by a sense of responsibility, and out of self interest -- for himself, his family, and the future of his country -- to resist government abuse of power. He rejects the notion that patriotism means obedience to the state. | |
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| bogey780
join:2004-03-19
Here
| Essentially this showcases how different applications on the net have different needs. BT doesn't need a great ping. WOW does. Net Neutrality would just work at making everyone have the same ideal connection which would make it very expensive for network management. | |
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| | deepblackmag
join:2004-12-27
00000
| Re: Queue Net Neutrality Debate Actually, neutrality would be mob rule lol. whoever used the most bandwidth would (surpise surpise!) have the most bandwidth. Its communism of the internet, and we all know how successful and prosperous those communist countries turned out to be (north korea... the soviet union... etc) | |
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| | | bmn
? ? ?
Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus
| Re: Queue Net Neutrality Debate said by deepblackmag :Actually, neutrality would be mob rule lol. whoever used the most bandwidth would (surpise surpise!) have the most bandwidth. Its communism of the internet, and we all know how successful and prosperous those communist countries turned out to be (north korea... the soviet union... etc) Mob rule doesn't equal "communism". Nice red herring though.
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Prove it...
Save the Internet Time (NTP) service, use the pool. | |
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| | | | deepblackmag
join:2004-12-27
00000 | Re: Queue Net Neutrality Debate As i recall, thats what the russian revolution was with the overthrow of the czar. =P | |
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| | | | | bmn
? ? ?
Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus
| Re: Queue Net Neutrality Debate said by deepblackmag :As i recall, thats what the russian revolution was with the overthrow of the czar. =P Yeah, but if use that, then what about the French Revolution ? The American Revolution ? South American revolutions ? They all were basically mob rule.
And technically democracy is basically mob rule, albeit it a tad bit more, how shall we say, restrained.
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Prove it...
Save the Internet Time (NTP) service, use the pool. | |
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| | | | | | deepblackmag
join:2004-12-27
00000 | Re: Queue Net Neutrality Debate All of those are just examples of terrorist activities lol =P | |
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| | | zerog
join:2002-02-10
Dallas, TX | didn't see Big Red anywhere in here?
How is commie China doing nowadays? Aren't they buying up Africa and South America? | |
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John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
 ·CenturyLink
| Re: Queue Net Neutrality Debate said by zerog :How is commie China doing nowadays? Aren't they buying up Africa and South America? They are buying up the U.S. of A.
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A is A | |
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| | bmn
? ? ?
Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus
| said by bogey780 :Essentially this showcases how different applications on the net have different needs. BT doesn't need a great ping. WOW does. Net Neutrality would just work at making everyone have the same ideal connection which would make it very expensive for network management. I'd like to see some hard facts that backup that assertion. Applying QoS based on who paid and who doesn't would actually cost more and be FAR more complex.
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Prove it...
Save the Internet Time (NTP) service, use the pool. | |
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| | | deepblackmag
join:2004-12-27
00000
| Re: Queue Net Neutrality Debate Applying QOS based on who paid and who didnt is bloody PIE on a docsis network where all the users have cable modem configs pushed out by the central office. All you need to do is create one config per tier (paid vs didnt pay) and have it set a certain DSCP priority tag (or equivilant, whatever QoS they like to use). The individual modem would be responsible for tagging and the routers would just have to respect the tag itself. | |
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| | | | bmn
? ? ?
Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus
| Re: Queue Net Neutrality Debate said by deepblackmag :Applying QOS based on who paid and who didnt is bloody PIE on a docsis network where all the users have cable modem configs pushed out by the central office. You are assuming the USERS are paying for QoS, in which case that would be VERY easy. For example, my business class cable connection is set with a higher QoS priority than the folks using normal residential connections.
However, talking about something TOTALLY different. The expense and complexity of setting up QoS based on whether internet site or service X or Y paid for their customers to have better QoS to their site/service is where the problem is. Your QoS rules become more complex if you say prioritize VoIP provider X's traffic and not VoIP provider Y's traffic instead of doing what would make more sense and just creating one QoS class for ALL VoIP. Doing that would cost far less in time and would be far less complex. And most routers already have the ability to prioritize based on traffic classes in their software, so there is no additional expense to the provider.
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Prove it...
Save the Internet Time (NTP) service, use the pool. | |
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| | | | | deepblackmag
join:2004-12-27
00000 | Re: Queue Net Neutrality Debate You are assuming that services would pay for QoS lol. I frankly dont see that happening, meaning the only viable target for billing is the user. Thus my comment stands. | |
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| | | | | | bmn
? ? ?
Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus
| Re: Queue Net Neutrality Debate said by deepblackmag :You are assuming that services would pay for QoS lol. I frankly dont see that happening, meaning the only viable target for billing is the user. Thus my comment stands. Providers, however, are not looking to bill the consumer, though. They want a cut of the service providers take (Youtube, etc.).
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Prove it...
Save the Internet Time (NTP) service, use the pool. | |
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| bmn
? ? ?
Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus
| said by texans20 :I'll give you a hint though, a network neutrality law will not solve any problems. What it will do is cause a price rise as the companies are forced to subsidize the price of the heavy users by making the light users pay more. They already do that, so NN wouldn't cause it. Everyone is paying for unlimited usage despite some people barely using their connections.
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Prove it...
Save the Internet Time (NTP) service, use the pool. | |
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| axus
join:2001-06-18
Washington, DC
·Verizon Online DSL
| Duh, the price is already higher than it should be for the average user... maybe too low for 5% of users and too high for the rest. Cable and Phone companies make more money that way. And since people are willing to pay that much and there is little competition, they aren't gonna lower it. | |
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texans20
Weapons of Masturbation
Premium
join:2002-09-28
Texas!
clubs:
| Re: Queue Net Neutrality Debate said by axus :Duh, the price is already higher than it should be for the average user... maybe too low for 5% of users and too high for the rest. Cable and Phone companies make more money that way. And since people are willing to pay that much and there is little competition, they aren't gonna lower it. How do you know it's too high? Do you have some sort of insider information that shows they are pulling in this huge profit, or do you just believe the prices are too high? Do you believe these communication companies should not make a nice profit?
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The true patriot is motivated by a sense of responsibility, and out of self interest -- for himself, his family, and the future of his country -- to resist government abuse of power. He rejects the notion that patriotism means obedience to the state. | |
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NOCMan
Verizon Fios User
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Flower Mound, TX | bandwidth Wow uses about 20-80kbps depending on what you're doing in game.
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Mac Chatter
»www.macchatter.net | |
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| deepblackmag
join:2004-12-27
00000
| Re: bandwidth Not counting voice traffic to vent servers etc. I have two frequent WOW users on my network (apt building) and have special solarwinds reporting setup on their ports to aggregate their traffic. Sometimes their upstream exceeds half a megabit when both users are talking etc. I dont care that they are playing a game, but sometimes their traffic does degrade the line for other traffic (such as my SIP/RTP/H323) and I shape their game crap back. They know who i am, bitch about the ping etc. Voice traffic game traffic and possibly on update download days (which IS bittorrent) they can chew up alot of bandwidth for a residential user. Im sure TWC just has some automated capping measure in place for upstream on their UBRs, and its just catching the wrong streams. Unfortunately cisco's NBAR doesnt recognise WOW as a valid protocol lol | |
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| | ender7074
join:2006-11-21
Saint Louis, MO
·AT&T Southeast
| Re: bandwidth I see. So you think your traffic is more important than their "game crap"? I'm kinda doubting that their upload is taking that much bandwith but even if it is, so what? If that were the case, I would have severe latency issues all the time because my upstream is barley over that amount and I'm usually doing multiple things online at the same time, which include, playing a game, running vent, and downloading crap. Sounds to me like you need more bandwith than to selectively take bandwith away from others just because you think your needs are more important than their needs. | |
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See 13 replies to this post |
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| slckusr
Premium
join:2003-03-17
Maumee, OH | yea, i used to play wow on 28.8 3 the country. anddidnt have any issues other than a higher ping. couldnt be using THAT much bandwidth. | |
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| Ikarasu
join:2004-01-09
Port Coquitlam, BC
 ·ITalkBB
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| geezers pulling their email, or waiting a whole 2 seconds for a webpage to load, makes a lot more sense then degrading gameplay experience. Waiting a second or two longer to see a webpage, or get your E-mail isn't exactly a problem.
Having your b/w be prioritized, and affected by an old crappy Router, giving you latency in game, kinda makes it un-playable/unfun, which is the point of games.
I'd say 99% of ISPs prioritize gaming traffic... Not the other way around :\ | |
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| | | | deepblackmag
join:2004-12-27
00000
1 edit | Re: bandwidth The line speed is positively prehistoric frame relay garbage. See my other comments about the owners not caring enough to pay for something better.
edit: My other comment is "held by system" lol whatever that means. | |
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| | deepblackmag
join:2004-12-27
00000
| Re: bandwidth I would agree completely that they need a faster pipe, and a better router. Shaping is a stopgap measure to keep my phone from ringing every time some retard fires up kazaa. The problem is that the owners arent interested in it (they dont see the point, arent big net users etc) so they want to use the same crap that was good 7 years ago lol. There is no point in arguing with people like that, they simply dont care and enough of their clients arent net savvy enough to use youtube so its really not worth wasting time worrying about. | |
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| | | | deepblackmag
join:2004-12-27
00000
2 edits | Re: bandwidth How about sending me a new 7204 with a nice NPM4 =) I wont give it to them but it will go nice in my rack of play gear =P
Edit: You are correct, i should have mentioned it. That is a switch port, not the router. I wouldnt dare run SNMP polling on it that intensively lol I have managed to crash (accidentally) some equipment in the past with frequent polling. | |
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| | | | | | deepblackmag
join:2004-12-27
00000 | Re: bandwidth Just slip the poor security people 20$, im sure its more than they make. Places with a CRS1 cant afford to pay people decent wages these days : | |
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| Ikarasu
join:2004-01-09
Port Coquitlam, BC
·ITalkBB
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| Well, that doesn't make sense. WoW is download heavy, same with Ventrilo/TS.
Ventrilo/TS Sends 1 voice stream to a centralized server, and that server uploads it to the rest. Warcraft's max bandwidth, which is like 6-7 KB/s both directions, is mainly downstream. The upload is very rare, and once every day at the most.
Don't know how you figured it was WoW/Vent. But if they told you that's what it is...well, maybe they're covering up File sharing. Before blaming an app/game though, you should check into what the specifications of the mentioned programs are. I can say, with 100% Certainty... Them usage stats are NOT for WoW/Vent. | |
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DSLTech
join:2000-12-30
San Jose, CA | Time to go out and get a life? Just kidding, WOW fans. Time Warner surely needs to address any LATENCY issues brought on by this traffic shaping. | |
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jc100
join:2002-04-10
| Ever pull that SH*T here.. Im going elsewhere Good thing for competition. They pull that crap and I'd get rid of them faster than one can jump. While it's their network and their prerogative, customers DO NOT have to stick around. I'm guessing Rochester probably has alternatives in providers. I can hear their membership base falling... (Whoosh)... | |
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See 7 replies to this post |
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kaila
join:2000-10-11
Lincolnshire, IL
clubs: | I don't have anything to say about this subject but.... I love the title!  | |
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astoriaqueensny
@rr.com
| this is bullshit I'm in Astoria, NY and my download speed was a constant ever flowing 1.7MB, but ever since this packet shaping shit went into effect, everyday during business hours ( and up till a little after 9PM EDT) my speed drops and fluctuates between 300-600KBs. This shit is annoying and I don't know what I can do about this. This is not what I'm paying for. | |
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JohnBrowning
join:2006-08-07
Plano, TX | Whining Gamers... This is called network management. If you don't like it, pay for a higher quality connection. | |
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See 12 replies to this post |
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| kilrathi
join:2005-04-22
Rockaway Park, NY
| Re: * I have stated since 2 weeks ago that this entire WoW and other problems were not related to packet shaping. RR basically screwed something on their network and while it didnt affect all connections, routing to WoW servers was affected. People choose this problem to attack packet shaping even though its totally irrelevant to this issue. | |
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GemSnake
Premium
join:2000-10-19
3rd layer
clubs:
| Re: * said by kilrathi :I have stated since 2 weeks ago that this entire WoW and other problems were not related to packet shaping. RR basically screwed something on their network and while it didnt affect all connections, routing to WoW servers was affected. People choose this problem to attack packet shaping even though its totally irrelevant to this issue. kilrathiace
Level 1
Joined 2005-04-22
Location: Far Rockaway, NY
Noob!!!
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For our slow and special readers, that was a joke.Chillax.
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| noadplz
join:2004-04-09
USA | And i always hear that alliance lose in BG  | |
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GemSnake
Premium
join:2000-10-19
3rd layer
clubs: | Re: * That's why they are pissed! I'm thinking of creating a guild called "We run your intarwebz". And I dare anyone to gank me!
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"In a fight between you and the world, bet on the world." - Franz Kafka | |
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major marco
Res Firma Mitescere Nescit
Premium
join:2003-02-13
Stepford, CA
clubs:
| Broadband in U.S. Sucks If the U.S. had more options for broadband, quibbling over bandwidth wouldn't even be an issue, but anyone who even has access to broadband has exactly two choices in each market -one single DSL provider and one cable provider. You can thank the 1996 Telecom Act for that.
And while it may be argued that some now even have access to FIOS, but as we have already seen, Verizon can't even get its billing services correct so imagine how horrendous the FIOS service must be.
Bottom line: U.S. broadband sucks ass because the name of the game is how much money the company can squeeze out of consumers for the tiniest bit of service rather than quality of the service. 
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The Toll
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| Stovokor
join:2007-08-02
Omaha, NE
| Re: Broadband in U.S. Sucks From what I understand, the 1996 Telecom Act regulated healthy competition between telcos and had very little to do with differing services. Broadband in America is being tested and researched in several different forms; while consumer monopolies are typically DSL and Cable, and you are correct in that aspect, I have a feeling we'll see BPL or something equally ridiculous come from out of the woodwork soon.
For the Horde! | |
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major marco
Res Firma Mitescere Nescit
Premium
join:2003-02-13
Stepford, CA
clubs:
| Re: Broadband in U.S. Sucks said by Stovokor :From what I understand, the 1996 Telecom Act regulated healthy competition between telcos and had very little to do with differing services. [...] The Telecom Act of 1996 was intended to open up communication services to broad competition on the most basic level, but when it comes to gov policy, things hardly ever work the way they were intended. Which is why we went from 15 national ISPs in 1996 to 5, and, about a dozen big landline telephone companies to -at present time- 3. So yeah, "differing services" played a huge role in the rewrite of the 1934 communications act (which established the FCC) that the '96 bill was originally based on.
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The Toll
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bmn
? ? ?
Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus
| Queue the hordes... Here come the hordes of anti-NN who usually know nothing about the internet or how it all works to take on the NN crowds who are probably jumping the gun...
Currently, there are two conflicting reports of what is ACTUALLY going on here and neither of them may even be correct. TW announcing that they MIGHT be doing traffic shaping does not actually equate them doing it. The source of the problem may be elsewhere - poor peering agreements, overloaded transit circuits, etc. Or it could very well be the continuing capacity problems that WoW was having, although if just TW customers are seeing problems, it likely points to an issue specific to TW's network.
And IF TW is shaping traffic, especially game traffic, intentionally, shame on them. Disrupting the traffic of an application like WoW, where users are actually paying to use that service is down right rotten, low and should most definitely be illegal.
On the other hand, if TW isn't shaping traffic and it is another problem on their network, they need to hire some people who actually know how to run a network.
And if it is the WoW servers acting up again... Well, we all know the solution there.
Either way, more facts are needed.
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Prove it...
Save the Internet Time (NTP) service, use the pool. | |
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Richard B
Fur It Up
join:2007-06-22
Portland, OR
·Comcast
| Re Traffic Shaping Packets It seem to be two miss conceptions going on here First one seem to for get that you not buy a steaming connection but a pack base. You are always going run into latency problem. Also I am wondering low bandwidth usage in WOW is working against them because many traffic shaping algorithms I know places lower demand application like e mail on a lower priority.
To me it come down to customer ignorance of the network technologies regardless of the speed, there no guarantee streaming technologies will work efficiently on packet base technologies like the internet. | |
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Iforgot0
join:2001-01-17
Eastlake, OH
| Sex and Bandwidth (Hemmm)? Well, if I remember correctly there was a person that uttered a phrases that had changed history, and it should be applied here (I have not had _ _ _ with that girl).
Everyone knows you can twist words around to influence what ever you like, and packets are not any different. My 1.5 cents states that, what gives TWR the right to shape our packets? it's manipulative and I don't see the difference between this and reading your email. Sure bush had signed a bill stating that the Gov can do it, but what gives the ISP the same right. Not only is my information/packet being read to be priorities, but their marketing ploy states that I have the up to the bandwidth that I'm paying for. Over populating the network is the same to me as fraud, your lying to the people that you have the goods or services that they are paying for, and prioritizing the packets is another way for them to cover their ass for over populating it.
People don't care how you look at it consequently; a pie is a pie, is a pie however you slice it (Ask the FCC).  In IT it is always the bottom end of the business that fails, because the pins heads towards the top never like to rub elbows with the person shoveling the coals in the fire. I have been lucky to be part of both shticks and understand this well. They should be investing in education towards their IT and getting rid of the marketing quota that is killing the network.
Everyone needs to eat, however with the way these ISP's are going a reeducation is at hand. How much are you willing to sacrifice to keep what you have worked hard for "your rights"! 
Thanks for letting me chime in.... | |
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grabeck
join:2003-07-17
Calgary, AB
2 edits | don't forget packet loss :-) I've had that issue with my ISP and WoW. Extreme packet loss (15%) is not liked by apps like WoW. I notice WoW can simply not recover from a 2-10 mins. time frame where packet loss is bad on the ISP routers in my area. Shaw Cable (ISP) offers a QoS feature for VoIP customers for improved bandwidth, and when asked if it could be offered to gamers they said no. I find that hard to believe.
btw... SCREW the Horde!!! bunch of losers! /spit LOL. jk | |
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Vathral
Premium
join:2002-08-26
New York, NY
clubs:
·Earthlink Cable Mo..
| Usage during noon WoW rarely uses any bandwidth as other pointed out. It seems Blizzard themselves on the WoW forum first placed the blame on traffic shaping, not the users.
Here is the usual network usage on WoW. All it is is poor routing which is causing the terrible lag spikes us players are complaining about.
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| cryptmagic
Premium
join:2006-06-26
New York, NY
| Re: Usage during noon TW put there business, ahead of there customers. I have had lag for 4 weeks, and it is bad. My vonage phone, will get hit with a spike lag, and i cant hear anyone for 5 seconds, i play wow, and i get constant lag spikes. Even my XBOX live is lagging, it is that bad. I am switching to dsl, sure it may be a little slower, but i dont want to deal with this crap anymore. | |
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MysticGogeta
The Robot Devil
Premium
join:2005-03-14
League City, TX
clubs:
·Comcast
| Re: Usage during noon I would be VERY pissed if they did that to me I'm glad I've never had problems because I can't get dsl. I'm very sure many Wow players are stuck in the same position where its TWC or Dial up.
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Team Discovery-Join the fight | |
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Time Warner Cable Vs. The Horde
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