dslreports logo
site
spacer

spacer
 
   
spc
story category
UK ISPs Want iPlayer Toll
Subsidize our builds or we traffic shape...
by Karl Bode 01:35PM Monday Aug 13 2007
As previously noted, the BBC has released new iPlayer software that lets broadband users watch content from the last 7 days of BBC broadcasting. However, UK ISPs are annoyed with the new service. Taking their cue from former AT&T CEO Ed Whitacre, the ISPs say that the BBC should help subsidize their network builds if they want to offer a service that gobbles up so much bandwidth. From the Financial Times:
Click for full size
quote:
"The internet was not set up with a view to distributing video. We have been improving our capacity, but the bandwidth we have is not infinite,” said Mary Turner, chief executive of Tiscali UK. “If the iPlayer really takes off, consumers accessing the internet will get very slow service and will call their ISPs to complain."
ISPs say that unless the BBC pays them to upgrade infrastructure, they'll be forced to restrict the service via traffic shaping. Providers on both sides of the pond are working hard to forge a new paradigm where content providers subsidize network operators in order to appease impatient investors who hate the slow returns of next-gen upgrades.

And here you were thinking it was the network operator's job to fund capacity upgrades in order to meet consumer demand....

view:
topics flat nest 

Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23

Idiots.

Tough luck. Your subscribers pay you to provide a connection at a certain speed. Plenty of ISPs out there can afford to provide service to heavy bandwidth users, you UK ISPs can too.

Here's an idea, if you UK ISPs can't afford to provide service and still make a profit, why don't you get out of the business? Somebody else will pick up the slack.
--
SuprFile, super simple free image hosting: »suprfile.com

battleop

join:2005-09-28
00000

Re: Idiots.

Here is a better Idea. If you want unrestricted, unfiltered, unshaped, do what you want to with it bandwidth, stop buying residential class services.

When they figure the pricing on these services they don't figure that the end user is going to slam it at 100% 24/7. This is how they bring the price down. If you were to go to a data center and buy 8Mb of service from any vendor you wont get it for the same per/mb you get at home. You won't even come close.
ctggzg
Premium
join:2005-02-11
USA
kudos:2
Yeah, idiots -- but not the ISPs.

"And here you were thinking it was the network operator's job to fund capacity upgrades in order to meet consumer demand...."

Well, it's NOT. If they don't want to upgrade to meet "consumer demands", that's their business. Take it or leave it.
eco
Premium
join:2001-11-28
Wilmington, DE

Re: Idiots.

said by ctggzg:

Yeah, idiots -- but not the ISPs.

"And here you were thinking it was the network operator's job to fund capacity upgrades in order to meet consumer demand...."

Well, it's NOT. If they don't want to upgrade to meet "consumer demands", that's their business. Take it or leave it.
Leave it. You know there's going to be some ISP who will be willing to put up with all this bandwidth use and that will happily absorb all the people leaving the ISPs that try to hinder what the user wants to do.

johndandison

join:2001-11-22
Charlotte, NC
said by ctggzg:

"And here you were thinking it was the network operator's job to fund capacity upgrades in order to meet consumer demand...."

Well, it's NOT. If they don't want to upgrade to meet "consumer demands", that's their business.
Perhaps I misunderstood your post, but if I am a network operator and my customers are not getting what they pay for, how is it not my responsibility? The BBC should not be responsible for helping build infrastructure; it's not their infrastructure. Should I pay the power company extra because of summer brownouts? If the network can't handle demand, then the network operator should step up and improve their service, otherwise they should restrict service and charge a premium for those who want it. Besides, I'm sure that whoever the BBC is paying to host all that content probably isn't complaining - I can guarantee they're paying out the wazoooooo!
--
John Dandison | Software Developer

Ignite
Premium,VIP
join:2004-03-18
UK
Reviews:
·PlusNet

Tiscali...

As previously mentioned Tiscali offer an extremely low price, low quality and shaped to crap service.

These are the guys that restrict people's service for daring to use 350MB in a week between 6pm and midnight.

Same with Carphone Warehouse, offering their service 'free' and shaped to hell, and BT.

All symptomatic of the UK regulator artificially inflating the prices that they pay for wholesale access to the ILEC network to encourage unbundling of COs and promote competition, however even some of those doing that are offering services so cheap that they are shaping to make the numbers work, Carphone being one of them.

Tiscali have unbundled some, but are using it purely to drive costs for themselves down, still shape their customers to crap.

BT are the only ISP that use their interconnect method, and they have a small army of Ellacoyas to control traffic.

As with so many other things you get what you pay for and hopefully this will convince all the people who snubbed paying a few bucks more for a better service of that.

Cozworth
Premium
join:2003-06-10
england

Re: Tiscali...

said by Ignite:

As previously mentioned Tiscali offer an extremely low price, low quality and shaped to crap service.

These are the guys that restrict people's service for daring to use 350MB in a week between 6pm and midnight.

Same with Carphone Warehouse, offering their service 'free' and shaped to hell, and BT.
Virgin cable upgraded their max speed to 20Mb, and then restricted usage between 4pm-12am. I am on 2Mb (£17.99) and if I download 350Mb between those times my connection goes to crap. It should be 1Mb/128k (throttled) but the lag on it is awful.
bmn
? ? ?
Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus

1 recommendation

Bullshit...

"The internet was not set up with a view to distributing video."
What a line of bullshit if I ever heard one... The internet was setup to move IP packets regardless of content, be it email, web pages, FTP packets, streaming audio or video.

You have to love how ignorant these execs are about the internet despite the fact that they run the companies that provide access to it. No wonder they are coming up with the asinine ideas they have. They haven't a clue.
--
Prove it...
Save the Internet Time (NTP) service, use the pool.

Ignite
Premium,VIP
join:2004-03-18
UK
Reviews:
·PlusNet

Re: Bullshit...

That was a Tiscali exec for you.

The bandwidth Tiscali have is a pretty long way from unlimited, and their network is set up with a view to doing nothing.

Core network saturation, local VP saturation, national interconnect saturation, extreme shaping. All in a day's work for Tiscali. Go complain about it to their Bangalore customer services and be ignored.

Crap services, crap billing, crap support, crap customer service.

But hey it's really, really cheap. Can't think why.

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK

Corporation: One Goal: Money

1) Charge people to connect.
2) Charge providers for connection.
3) Charge providers for the bandwidth they use. (and often the users too)

Now they want to charge providers extra for their expenses of providing the services 1, 2, and 3 that people already pay for! They are like leeches, they want everyone else to pay for everything, but they rake in the profits.

I just don't understand the logic of these thinking.

"You owe us money for us to bill you for service! If you don't pay us to upgrade our infrastructure, we'll cripple you!"

This type of situation only occurs when too much of the infrastructure and the connections are in the hands of a few, far too powerful companies with limited or no competition.
--
"Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!)

hobgoblin
Sortof Agoblin
Premium
join:2001-11-25
Orchard Park, NY
kudos:11

2 recommendations

Pay per Usuage

I have always thought that customers should pay for exactly how much they use. Those who download 24/7 from Newsgroups and p2p should end up paying their proportion of the cost instead of moderate users subsidizing them.

Thus if you want to download HD Movies and TV shows....You can as long as you want to bear the costs.

Hob
--
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson

FFH5
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ
kudos:5

1 edit

Re: Pay per Usage

said by hobgoblin:

I have always thought that customers should pay for exactly how much they use. Those who download 24/7 from Newsgroups and p2p should end up paying their proportion of the cost instead of moderate users subsidizing them.

Thus if you want to download HD Movies and TV shows....You can as long as you want to bear the costs.

Hob
Ultimately, I think this is exactly what will happen. And the heaviest users will have to either be rich or cut back on their consumption of bandwidth.
--
--
Internet News
My BLOG
My Web Page
travelguy

join:1999-09-03
Santa Fe, NM

Re: Pay per Usuage

said by hobgoblin:

I have always thought that customers should pay for exactly how much they use. Those who download 24/7 from Newsgroups and p2p should end up paying their proportion of the cost instead of moderate users subsidizing them.

Thus if you want to download HD Movies and TV shows....You can as long as you want to bear the costs.
What you may be overlooking is that the internet is a classic example of a business that has very high fixed costs and very low variable costs. Billing by the byte is analogous to billing by the minute for phone calls. It's a business model that is rapidly becoming obsolete.

What ISPs will need to do is come up with a model that looks at total bandwidth used over a period of time (to cover the average size of the pipe they need to contract for) as well as some form of peak time billing to cover the margins.
kaila

join:2000-10-11
Lincolnshire, IL
That's fine, as long as ISP's are aware that the average usage for all users will keep rising, and structure any over usage fees/penalties up front. If they can't or choose not to keep up with bandwidth demands, they'll find themselves nailing an ever greater percentage of users with usage fees, ultimately pricing themselves out of the market.

hobgoblin
Sortof Agoblin
Premium
join:2001-11-25
Orchard Park, NY
kudos:11

Re: Pay per Usuage

said by kaila:

That's fine, as long as ISP's are aware that the average usage for all users will keep rising, and structure any over usage fees/penalties up front. If they can't or choose not to keep up with bandwidth demands, they'll find themselves nailing an ever greater percentage of users with usage fees, ultimately pricing themselves out of the market.
The AVERAGE Usage is no where near what the members of this site feel it is. Its the posters that continually brag about what they download in a month that need to bring down their usage or pony up and pay for it and the network upgrades only they are demanding.

Hob

FiL
Premium
join:2005-08-16
Silver Spring, MD

Re: Pay per Usuage

Explain...

because I don't see very many people using Dial up where broadband is offered. People are sharing lots of video and music now more so then ever. How is the average usage no where near what many of us here at BBR speak of?

FFH5
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ
kudos:5

Re: Pay per Usuage

said by FiL:

Explain...

because I don't see very many people using Dial up where broadband is offered. People are sharing lots of video and music now more so then ever. How is the average usage no where near what many of us here at BBR speak of?
Because 90% of users don't download music and videos - either free ones or for pay ones.
--
--
Internet News
My BLOG
My Web Page

hobgoblin
Sortof Agoblin
Premium
join:2001-11-25
Orchard Park, NY
kudos:11

1 recommendation

said by FiL:

Explain...

because I don't see very many people using Dial up where broadband is offered. People are sharing lots of video and music now more so then ever. How is the average usage no where near what many of us here at BBR speak of?
Because the average user uses his broadband to surf quicker.
Just because you are sharing music and video, the average user is not....He may look at a few youtube vids....but its no where near the 100's of Gigs that the few download.

Lots of people have lives!

Hob
--
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson
bmn
? ? ?
Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus
Pay per usage is already in place...

When you purchase an X Mbps pipe from a provider, you are paying for the ability to download up to the X gigabytes that the pipe can provide. If you want to go over the X gigabytes that you pipe at X Mbps can provide, you need to pay for a pipe at Y Mbps.
--
Prove it...
Save the Internet Time (NTP) service, use the pool.

kfsutops
Premium
join:2002-08-19
Tampa, FL
You and I both know that is never going to happen. The days of AOL charging per minute (somewhat the same) have been gone a long time ago. Competition in market place made sure of that.

The US likes the one price for all model. Look at the cell phone industry.

I don't necessarily agree with it, but that is the reality.

hobgoblin
Sortof Agoblin
Premium
join:2001-11-25
Orchard Park, NY
kudos:11

Re: Pay per Usuage

said by kfsutops:

You and I both know that is never going to happen. The days of AOL charging per minute (somewhat the same) have been gone a long time ago. Competition in market place made sure of that.

The US likes the one price for all model. Look at the cell phone industry.

I don't necessarily agree with it, but that is the reality.
I think at some point its going to have to happen. I know I am getting sick of the "I pay my $35 bucks so I will download all I can" brigade as I am sure are the ISP's.

Hob
--
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson

kfsutops
Premium
join:2002-08-19
Tampa, FL

Re: Pay per Usuage

said by hobgoblin:

I think at some point its going to have to happen. I know I am getting sick of the "I pay my $35 bucks so I will download all I can" brigade as I am sure are the ISP's.

Hob
Unfortunately, you are probably correct. The cell phone industry can do what they want as long as there is not competition.
--
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a LOT of inquisitive idiots"
xo9

join:2007-06-15
Perry, FL
When you purchase an X Mbps pipe from a provider, you are paying for the ability to download up to the X gigabytes that the pipe can provide. If you want to go over the X gigabytes that you pipe at X Mbps can provide, you need to pay for a pipe at Y Mbps.

hobgoblin
Sortof Agoblin
Premium
join:2001-11-25
Orchard Park, NY
kudos:11

Re: Pay per Usuage

said by xo9:

When you purchase an X Mbps pipe from a provider, you are paying for the ability to download up to the X gigabytes that the pipe can provide. If you want to go over the X gigabytes that you pipe at X Mbps can provide, you need to pay for a pipe at Y Mbps.
Good Job at copying a previous post and depositing it here.
However it makes no sense.

If i have a 10mb connection it does not mean that I have to max the whole thing out 24/7 just because I am paying X dollars for it.

Hob
--
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson

nixen
Rockin' the Boxen
Premium
join:2002-10-04
Alexandria, VA

Re: Pay per Usuage

said by hobgoblin:

If i have a 10mb connection it does not mean that I have to max the whole thing out 24/7 just because I am paying X dollars for it.
No, but you're getting less value if you don't.

FFH5
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ
kudos:5

Re: Pay per Usuage

said by nixen:

said by hobgoblin:

If i have a 10mb connection it does not mean that I have to max the whole thing out 24/7 just because I am paying X dollars for it.
No, but you're getting less value if you don't.
When you go to an all you can eat restaurant do you stay 6 hours and eat until you throw up? Because that is the same logic.
--
--
Internet News
My BLOG
My Web Page

nixen
Rockin' the Boxen
Premium
join:2002-10-04
Alexandria, VA

Re: Pay per Usuage

said by FFH5:

said by nixen:

said by hobgoblin:

If i have a 10mb connection it does not mean that I have to max the whole thing out 24/7 just because I am paying X dollars for it.
No, but you're getting less value if you don't.
When you go to an all you can eat restaurant do you stay 6 hours and eat until you throw up? Because that is the same logic.
Yeah, that's even a valid comparison.

How about we try again? Maybe you might understand amusement parks (I know, doubtful, as you've never struck me as the sort of person capable of understanding the concept of "amusement")? If one goes to an amusement park that charges a steep, flat-fee for the entire day (e.g. Six Flags, Busch Gardens, etc.) rather than charging per ride, it's likely that the ticket-buyer is going to try to ride as many of the rides as possible while there rather than just sitting on a bench or enjoying the economically-priced and delicious foods. Or is it your assertion that, by doing so, they are cheating the park operators out of money?

Ok... How about memberships with a gym like Gold's or Bally's (again, probably well outside your experience)? Again, one generally pays a flat, monthly rate rather than a per-visit (or per-machine or per-rep or per-weight lifted) rate. If I go daily to the gym am I maximizing the value of my membership or am I just ripping off the gym's ownership by being a gym-glutton?

Don't bother to answer. Your history makes it clear what you'd say, any way.
--
Everyday, thousands of new cars are delivered to their new owners with poorly-selected radio station presets.

hobgoblin
Sortof Agoblin
Premium
join:2001-11-25
Orchard Park, NY
kudos:11

Re: Pay per Usuage

The difference between your Gym and amusement park analogy is that you have to be present to ride the rides or lift the weights.

Most of the Bandwidth hogs....are setting up huge queues of data that they never could in a 100 years utilize or watch and then leaving for work or going to bed.

Hob
--
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson

nixen
Rockin' the Boxen
Premium
join:2002-10-04
Alexandria, VA

Re: Pay per Usuage

said by hobgoblin:

The difference between your Gym and amusement park analogy is that you have to be present to ride the rides or lift the weights.

Most of the Bandwidth hogs....are setting up huge queues of data that they never could in a 100 years utilize or watch and then leaving for work or going to bed.
1) you're making a huge assumption about the never using/watching; 2) you're splitting hairs on the "being present". But, whatever - clearly anyone that wants to use their connection for more than casual web surfing or email is going to be in the wrong in your eyes.
--
Everyday, thousands of new cars are delivered to their new owners with poorly-selected radio station presets.
bmn
? ? ?
Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus
said by hobgoblin:

However it makes no sense.
It makes perfect sense to people who know what they are talking about...

If i have a 10mb connection it does not mean that I have to max the whole thing out 24/7 just because I am paying X dollars for it.
No, it doesn't mean you HAVE to max it out... You don't have to do anything.
--
Prove it...
Save the Internet Time (NTP) service, use the pool.

FFH5
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ
kudos:5
said by xo9:

When you purchase an X Mbps pipe from a provider, you are paying for the ability to download up to the X gigabytes that the pipe can provide. If you want to go over the X gigabytes that you pipe at X Mbps can provide, you need to pay for a pipe at Y Mbps.
The TOS overrides the simplified description you give of what you contracted for. You don't get to download 24x7 at the full bandwidth available. And 24x7 has NEVER been in any agreement with any ISP.
--
--
Internet News
My BLOG
My Web Page
bmn
? ? ?
Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus

Re: Pay per Usuage

said by FFH5:

The TOS overrides the simplified description you give of what you contracted for.
Than that means the ISP is failing to fullfil its part of the contract or that portion of the ToS is void since it contradicts the contract.
--
Prove it...
Save the Internet Time (NTP) service, use the pool.

Quake110
Premium
join:2003-12-20
Ottawa, ON

Sad days for UK's broadband advancement.

Just saw a documentary where France is beginning to lay down fibers to provide a Fios like service. And they actually encourage the user to use their service to view multimedia contents.

So it's not an excuse for UK's ISP providers. They'll have to keep up with the times.

••••

NOCMan
MadMacHatter
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Colorado Springs, CO

Network Mangers Need to Talk to Content Providers

The issue boils down to a lack of capacity. The problem is that content providers have gone with a 1:1 service through ip rather than a 1:many service using multicast. If content providers and network managers actually thought about the problem they could come up with a manageable solution.

Network operators are just trying to extort money rather than address the problems in a sensible manner.
--
Mac Chatter
»www.macchatter.net

djrobx
Premium
join:2000-05-31
Valencia, CA
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable
·VOIPO

Re: Network Mangers Need to Talk to Content Providers

quote:
The issue boils down to a lack of capacity. The problem is that content providers have gone with a 1:1 service through ip rather than a 1:many service using multicast. If content providers and network managers actually thought about the problem they could come up with a manageable solution.
I agree that multicasting can solve problems, but in this particular case:
quote:
that lets broadband users watch content from the last 7 days of BBC broadcasting
It sounds like the service is a video on demand type service that multicast wouldn't help with.
bmn
? ? ?
Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus
Multicasting would only solve the problem in the case of LIVE broadcasting.

What is actually needed here is something like Akamai, where the content is cached on the provider's local networks and it reduces the overall transport bandwidth needed.
--
Prove it...
Save the Internet Time (NTP) service, use the pool.

funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:6

If only...

If only there was some kind of invention that could alleviate the impact...

...some kind of, erm, "thingy," that could -- you know -- cache data that was repetitively accessed...

yeah, one of those cache thingies...

•••

techjoe
Premium
join:2004-02-20
Warrenville, IL
kudos:1

Where'd all that money go??

Invest in the infrastructure, not in the beach house.
--
www.clanc.cc

fcisler
Premium
join:2004-06-14
Riverhead, NY

Hey BBC....

Screw over the ISP's - offer to peer for FREE with each and every ISP that wants this "toll".

If they take the offer - well then if they complain, it's their infrastructure that can't handle it. If they DON'T take the offer - well then tell them to pound sand.

Seems very logical to me....IMO, they are complaining about the transit fees - or at least they should be...they can run their network as they wish.

Cut out the transit fees ("internet") and then watch as they go "uhhh...oooppps....our network sucks"