 jc100
join:2002-04-10
1 edit | Immunity If these companies are given immunity, break out your lighters, as the constitution needs to be burned. Under no guise, right, or reason, were these companies JUSTIFIED in their actions. Any politician that would agree they were NEEDS TO LEAVE NOW. This country is ALREADY going to hell in a hand basket. Let's take a look at Bush's / Republican's overwhelming successes for the past 7 years:
1) Failure in Iraq with no Plan even as Republicans had full control for 6 years. Refusing to let democrats limit power by rejecting any such legislation. Yet, Republicans couldn't run the show when they had full power.
2) Housing market IS VERY ABYSMAL!!
3) U.S Dollar is at a 30 year record low since November, 1976. IE Nixon. Why is it our economy always tanks under Republicans? Regan got us in our first trillion deficit, then Bush Sr, Then Bush Jr. Clinton was the ONLY president to have a fiscal surplus in 29 years (jeopardy question). Amazing, considering Republicans claim to be for small government and fiscal conservancy. HAH!!
4) Now our rights being pissed. NSA wiretapping under Bush. Patriot Act. Military Commissions act denying a trial to anyone Bush rules an enemy combatant (american or foreigner). What's happening to this country? You know something, there are 20-22,000 murders a year in the U.S. There have been maybe 4,000 deaths in the last 15 years from terrorism. (Oklahoma city, School Shootings, Both WTC, Anthrax crap, Unibomber, abortion clinic bombings). Yet, the politicians have been able to strip Americans of their rights without much effort. You have a 100 X more chance of walking outside today and being a victim of a murder than by Osama. However, we have traded our rights away because these idiots in office tell us we need to for our safety. Ben Franklink sums it up. Those who trade liberties for securities deserve neither. I say anyone who supports this crap needs to leave our country now. We are suppose to be a democracy and not tolerate overzealous acts by our government!... And to think these companies want immunity for breaching public trust. The only thing the politicians of past and these companies deserve is to be sued into oblivion and those responsible sent to jail! | |
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GOLFnSUN
Enjoy the sun
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join:2002-03-03
Avalon, NJ
 ·Sprint Mobile Broa..
 ·Comcast
| Re: Immunity said by jc100  : Now our rights being pissed. NSA wiretapping under Bush. Patriot Act. Military Commissions act denying a trial to anyone Bush rules an enemy combatant (american or foreigner). Ever hear of 9/11? Never happened right? The Congress gave the authority to the President 98-0 and 100-0 after 9/11. So he is using it. Thank god he is. No attacks on US soil since then. I wonder why?
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MacWin
join:2003-06-26
Imperial, MO | Re: Immunity And I have a wand that keeps Tigers away, how do I know it works, well I've never seen a Tiger around here so there you go it must work.
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Ha
@charter.com | I'll give you $20 for this wand of yours | |
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Hehe
@ssa.gov
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GOLFnSUN
| 9/11? Only about 3000 people died! Car crashes kill more than 40,000 people every year (more than 3000 every month)! More than 50% of those are alcohol related! | |
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GOLFnSUN
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join:2002-03-03
Avalon, NJ
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| Re: Immunity said by Hehe :
9/11? Only about 3000 people died! Car crashes kill more than 40,000 people every year (more than 3000 every month)! More than 50% of those are alcohol related!
So what.
Only 2400 people died at Pearl Harbor. I guess the US should have just stood by and said "car crashes killed 40,000 people last year so lets give Japan a pass"
Your point is meaningless.
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| | | | | jc100
join:2002-04-10
1 edit | Re: Immunity There's a huge difference. It's called blaming the REAL ENEMY (IE. Japan) and wrongly pointing the finger at a country who had nothing to do with said attack (IRAQ). Obviously, you failed geography and English to not know that the attackers were 90 Percent Saudi, with the others being from Yemen and Omen. Guess what, there wasn't a single Iraqi on that list. So while all problems must be dealt with, destabilizing the wrong country, and being responsible for over a few hundred thousands deaths, is not a response. It's called ignorance and poor leadership that was looking for someone to blame, without going after the real culprit. If you think terrorism was a problem post 9/11, you now have a country that serves as a rallying call for all who do want to do us harm, be it the small minority. Yet, like any fundamental sect, this minority has the power to do harm. Look at Christianity's wonderful history. Just ten years ago, the Christian Serbs slaughtered 1-200,000 Muslims. So let's not fool ourselves into thinking it's everyone. If you want to believe that, then we have more to fear from Christians and their past than Muslims. That point just needs to be made, since I got a gut feeling you will spin this to mean all Muslims are bad. Wrong. Anyhow, that aside, Congratulations Bush on your overwhelming failures and turning a region into crap. What else do you do for encores? We're all are sitting back at the edge of our seats to see the next idiotic move that will harm us for generations to come. | |
| | | | | | moonpuppy
join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD
 ·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Immunity said by jc100 :There's a huge difference. It's called blaming the REAL ENEMY (IE. Japan) and wrongly pointing the finger at a country who had nothing to do with said attack (IRAQ). Obviously, you failed geography and English to not know that the attackers were 90 Percent Saudi, with the others being from Yemen and Omen. And you failed history.
Japan attacked us but why was the focus of the war against Germany and NOT Japan? Maybe you forgot or didn't know that FDR a DEMOCRATIC President put out massive rumors that Germany was going to ally itself with Mexico and attack us from the south. FDR was desperate to get into WW2 in Europe but was not allowed to by Congress.
Germany NEVER attacked us. They merely declared war on us. BIG DEAL! Iran has declared war on us when they took our embassy hostage. Remember, embassy grounds are part of the country they represent. They invaded our territory.
As for Iraq, they continually violated UN resolutions. Should we just ignore UN resolutions? Why not kick them out and let them set up shop back in Geneva.
As for Muslims, if they refuse to chastise their more radical brothers, then their silence is their acceptance of terrorist actions. | |
| | | | | | | jc100
join:2002-04-10
| Re: Immunity Moon,
Ignorance is bliss bud. First, JAPAN was the focus of WW2. Do you not recall the Atomic Bomb. The first time such device was EVER used in history. Obviously not. WW2 was a World War. Hence, a war on all fronts. Obviously, you skipped WORLD HISTORY. We had FULL SCALE invasions on the Japanese. What naive world are you living in? My grandfather was in that war! I guess he just made up his whole service of being on an air craft carrier attacking the Japanese.... Amazing, people like you still exist.
As for the Germans. We attacked them only after our allies were being hammered. A matter of fact, we ignored the war for several years. Hitler had started his campaign in 1937 with the bombing of Guernica. It wasn't until 1941 when Europe was in FULL FLEDGED WAR and our allies needed help did we enter. Obviously, we stuck out of it because it had nothing to do with us in the beginning. However, when we saw our allies needed our help, we did react. Yet, there still lies a difference. GERMANS WERE COMMITTING GENOCIDE! That's something that should NEVER be tolerated. Now, if you would have said we should have entered Iraq in the 1980s when Saddam was, you would have had my full support and I'm sure the worlds. However, to make Saddam a scapegoat for 9/11 twenty years later DOESN'T WORK. SORRY! Obviously, Bush wanted to blame someone for the attacks, and he failed geography when trying to do so. Once again, there were like 17 Saudis and a few from Yemen and Omen. NOT A SINGLE IRAQI. Simply violating the UN resolutions didn't amount to going to war. Guess what, we found nothing when we did enter. Surprise Surprise. I guess he had nothing after all. So my point stands. Two different wars and two different circumstances. The fact of the matter, you need to learn history better, so you don't try to meld the two together like they are the least bit similar.
As for Muslims condemning the attacks, you speak for them all? Strange. I do recall several Arab nations condemning 9/11. Egypt is one of our strongest allies as is Saudi Arabia. Then again, when did Christianity Condemn Bosnia? Christian Serbs slaughtered 200,000 Muslims and buried them in mass graves. Please remind me where the church spoke on that. Better yet, Christianity has the Holocaust as Hitler was a Catholic. He used the Church to his benefit when killing the Jews. Let's not forget the Spanish Inquisition where 100s of thousands were slaughtered in the name of Christianity. Best yet, and most famous, the crusades had the Christians Murdering Muslims yet again. Ah yes, good old Christianity and its blood filled past. I don't remember reading too many condemnations by the Church on these acts either. Should I conclude then that all of Christianity supports this barbarity and I have more to fear from them than the Muslims. After all, Christianity has murdered millions in the name of it's religion, too. | |
| | | | | | | | moonpuppy
join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD
·Verizon Online DSL
1 edit | Re: Immunity said by jc100 :Moon, Ignorance is bliss bud. First, JAPAN was the focus of WW2. Do you not recall the Atomic Bomb. The first time such device was EVER used in history. Obviously not. WW2 was a World War. Hence, a war on all fronts. Obviously, you skipped WORLD HISTORY. We had FULL SCALE invasions on the Japanese. What naive world are you living in? My grandfather was in that war! I guess he just made up his whole service of being on an air craft carrier attacking the Japanese.... Amazing, people like you still exist. Japan was not the focus at the beginning. It was Europe. We merely held the Japanese at bay. It wasn't until the Battle of Midway did we have any luck and even the Navy was being stretched mighty thin. Why did MacArthur have to leave the Philippines? Why did we abandon Wake Island?
As for the atomic bomb, maybe you should study history a bit more. Why was it used? Two reasons. After the defeat of Germany, Russia now wanted a shot at their old nemesis of Japan. We already knew how bad Stalin could be so we needed to keep him out.
The main reason was the fanaticism of the Japanese people and how they would defend their homeland. If the US had attempted ANY invasion of the home islands, it would have been worse than Okinawa where civilians killed themselves rather than live under American occupation (as they were told by the Japanese military that we would rape their women and eat their children.) Many of those killed in the blasts were already declared dead by the Japanese military as defenders of the homeland. We merely saved our own soldiers.
said by jc100 :As for the Germans. We attacked them only after our allies were being hammered. A matter of fact, we ignored the war for several years. Hitler had started his campaign in 1937 with the bombing of Guernica. It wasn't until 1941 when Europe was in FULL FLEDGED WAR and our allies needed help did we enter. Obviously, we stuck out of it because it had nothing to do with us in the beginning. However, when we saw our allies needed our help, we did react. Yet, there still lies a difference. GERMANS WERE COMMITTING GENOCIDE! That's something that should NEVER be tolerated. We ignored the war because it had nothing to do with us. Our allies were being hammered since 1939 with the invasion of Poland. Yes, we sent military arms to England but we stayed out of it.
As for your genocide comment, no one really knew about the death camps until we found them. Plus, you forget that this country was anti-Semitic at the time. Try looking up the case of the SS St. Louis before you talk about entering the war because of genocide.
said by jc100 :Now, if you would have said we should have entered Iraq in the 1980s when Saddam was, you would have had my full support and I'm sure the worlds. However, to make Saddam a scapegoat for 9/11 twenty years later DOESN'T WORK. SORRY! Obviously, Bush wanted to blame someone for the attacks, and he failed geography when trying to do so. Once again, there were like 17 Saudis and a few from Yemen and Omen. NOT A SINGLE IRAQI. Simply violating the UN resolutions didn't amount to going to war. Guess what, we found nothing when we did enter. Surprise Surprise. I guess he had nothing after all. So my point stands. Two different wars and two different circumstances. The fact of the matter, you need to learn history better, so you don't try to meld the two together like they are the least bit similar. How about we bomb ourselves because so far we have a few who supported terrorism and actively fought for al-queda. Let's add England in there for Richard Reid and France for Zacarias Moussaoui.
Plus, you forget that Iraq was also practicing genocide against the Kurds which is one of your main reasons to go to war with Germany.
As for finding nothing, we do know Iraq buried some fighter jets in the sand and they were only found because of some local who pointed them out. As for the weapons, my theory is that Sadam thought he could rally the arab world to help him if the Americans attacked. Had he not tried to bully Iran, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and a few others, he might have had success. Sadam was not a rational person as shown in his own actions.
said by jc100 :As for Muslims condemning the attacks, you speak for them all? Strange. I do recall several Arab nations condemning 9/11. Egypt is one of our strongest allies as is Saudi Arabia. Then again, when did Christianity Condemn Bosnia? Christian Serbs slaughtered 200,000 Muslims and buried them in mass graves. Please remind me where the church spoke on that. Better yet, Christianity has the Holocaust as Hitler was a Catholic. He used the Church to his benefit when killing the Jews. Let's not forget the Spanish Inquisition where 100s of thousands were slaughtered in the name of Christianity. Best yet, and most famous, the crusades had the Christians Murdering Muslims yet again. Ah yes, good old Christianity and its blood filled past. I don't remember reading too many condemnations by the Church on these acts either. Should I conclude then that all of Christianity supports this barbarity and I have more to fear from them than the Muslims. After all, Christianity has murdered millions in the name of it's religion, too. Sure countries make condemn the attacks but why don't they do more to stop them?
As for Christians condemning Bosnia, I do recall the US sending air support and bombing the Serbs. You might also recall that was another debacle brought to you by the UN who can't decide if they want to stop war or just keep people at bay with useless sanctions and resolutions.
Hitler was more into the occult of Germany's past legends than a Catholic. And you may want to research Meir Kahane about how Jewish people can be just as bad.
Try again. | |
| | | | | | | | | jc100
join:2002-04-10
| Re: Immunity Moon,
What planet are you from? It's not earth. First, Let me provide you with a nice pretty timeline of WW2. Your history teachers failed you so I'll do my best to fix that problem. Look at December 1941.
»www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/t···time.htm
First, JAPAN attacked us BEFORE Germany declared war on the U.S. While Europe was a focus, so was Japan. It wasn't called a World War for nothing. However, Japan obviously became the main focus when they attacked Pearl Harbor on Dec 8, 1941. Shortly after (Dec 11), Germany declared war on us and we entered Europe (Jan, 26th 1942). Both of these were due to a culmination of events in prior years. Mostly sanctions and freezing assets. However, you need to get your dates straight.
Now for the atomic bomb. You make me laugh. We did not use it to prevent Russia from doing anything. The atomic bomb was being developed by both Germany and the U.S. However, the Germans never finished theirs because they lost the war. As for our usage in Japan, it was to prevent mass amounts of casualties on our side by having to drop on the mainland. Some predictions estimated there would be millions. Obviously, someone slept during history. It's called research, please try some and you will find this to be the ACTUAL reason we used the bomb.
As for ignoring the war, we used sanctions. There's a saying Diplomacy first. War Second. You have to try other methods before you send millions of people to war. Obviously, that's not logical to you. We didn't completely ignore, but nor did we help much. However, in 1941 we did enter and that's the point.
On the topic of Genocide, we had reports early on. How naive do you think this country is? WOW. While we never knew the extent of these camps until we liberated the people, we KNEW they existed. How could we not? Germany was deporting millions to such camps. Once again, research is paramount. Try it.
Side note... Let's not forget America's wonderful past of Japanese Internment Camps where many died as well from disease....
"Plus, you forget that Iraq was also practicing genocide against the Kurds which is one of your main reasons to go to war with Germany."
I mentioned that. Stop trying to flip things around. However, that was in the mid 1980s. I TOLD YOU ALREADY, had we entered then to stop Saddam, you would have had world support. Regan and Bush Sr. Chose to ignore it. Bush Sr's reaction was to liberate the Kuwaiti oil fields and leave. Obviously, he wasn't too concerned about the issue of genocide. However, more should have been done. Go blame Regan and Bush.
Again, you make me laugh. Saddam HATED IRAN. Do you not recall the Iran / Iraq wall? Saddam was pretty much disliked in the middle east. He wasn't rallying ANYONE. Do you enjoy inventing history? Once again, breaking sanctions was not cause for war. He had NOTHING. He NEVER ATTACKED the U.S. and the genocide happened 2 decades prior to us entering. 9/11 HAD NOTHING to do with SADDAM. You can try to spin it any way you want but no Iraqis were involved. Saddam didn't fund 9/11. So try again and stop misconstruing history for your own benefit.
"Sure countries make condemn the attacks but why don't they do more to stop them?"
Um... it already happened. How can you do more to stop something that happened? I doubt their leaders were privy to the plan. As for stopping future events, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, UAE, Egypt, Turkey are all very committed to rooting out fundamentalism in their country. While more could be done, they are making a valiant effort.
Last, I had to just bang my head before typing this. First, Christians MURDERED MILLIONS during the Crusades. A religious war against the Muslims. Second, CHRISTIANS MURDERED MILLIONS during the Spanish Inquisition as they forced their way to convert people. Convert or Die was the slogan... As for modern times, go read Mein Kempf. Hitler was a Catholic and based many of his Third Reich actions off the structure of the church. However, early on the Protestant Church broke rank with Hitler. However, he still had support of the Catholic and Methodist church. The Methodist being one of his stronger allies. Now, thats actual history versus your contrived one.
On the topic of Bosnia, Please tell me where the Churches condemned it or did more to stop it? You want to harp on Islam, let's harp on Christianity.... O wait, they didn't do anything. As for the U.S. entering and stopping it, Clinton did just that. Nato stopped the Serbs and we still have troops there at this moment. While the situation is not resolved, the violence is mostly gone. The Serbs aren't killing the Muslims and the Muslims aren't attacking the Serbs. What's left now is deciding how to divide the land. Yet, Clinton's Dayton Peace Accord ended the war officially.
As the G.I. Joe's said. Knowing is half the battle, and now you got an ACCURATE history lesson. | |
| | | | | | | | | | moonpuppy
join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Immunity I know history. If anyone has failed anyone, it was your teachers.
Again, when did Germany DIRECTLY attack us? Answer that. Only after we went over did they directly attack us. We had, according to the same definitions you use for the Iraq War, we had no business being over their.
And you better do a bit more reading. Russia was very interested in Japan and even went into Manchuria. One reason Germany never got the bomb was because they lost a shipment of D20 (heavy water) in Norway and was never able to make more without taking resources from other projects (such as the V1 and V2, jets, etc.)
Sanctions failed. Why? Because the UN failed to do anything. Food for Oil ring a bell? Even the son of the Secretary General was in on the fraud.
As for reports of genocide in Germany, there was no way to confirm it and even so, this country was anti-Semitic enough to not care. Again, I bring up the SS ST. Louis if you want to see how much we cared about Jews back then. It's not like we had reconnaissance planes over Germany like we have spy satellites now. And those being deported couldn't tell their side of the story and many in Germany supported it. Look up "Kristallnacht". That happened in 1938 and we waited until 1941 to go in?
Let's not forget the Japanese atrocities. Wake Island, Philippines, POW camps.
As for Kuwait, why did we stop at the border? That's right, the good old UN stopped us after the "Highway of Death" incident.
Your knowledge of history is severely lacking. Keep trying. | |
| | | | | | | | | | jc100
join:2002-04-10
| Re: Immunity I WILL TRY ONE LAST TIME with you.
First, Germany never attacked us but they made an official declaration of war after we embargoed them for oil and assets. Hence, after being attacked by Japan just a few days earlier, why the hell WOULD we wait for Germany to decimate Europe further and make it to our soil? Once again, you make connections that don't exist. IRAQ NEVER declared war on the U.S. formally or unofficially. There was NEVER a declaration by Saddam to Attack the U.S. with military might. The only time he ever made threats were when WE ATTACKED HIM. Try getting your history straight. It really isn't going well for you.
Second, I know why Germany didn't get the bomb. A large part was them losing their materials but they also lost the war before it was finished. However, that's an aside note. What you STILL DON'T UNDERSTAND is that we used the atomic bomb on Japan to save millions of our soldiers lives. Russia had NOTHING to do with us dropping the bomb. The justification for using it was that the amount of troops it would take to secure the Japanese mainland would be in the millions, a high cost seeing we lost so many in Europe. Before you speak further, GOOGLE a reputable site and not some contrived version of history. Russia only went into japan AFTER we dropped the bombs. Neither the U.S. or Russia wanted to enter ground warfare due to the amount of lives that would have been lost.. Who was your history teacher, the Emperor of Japan? You definitely DO NOT know your facts.
As for Genocide in Europe, we had reports. Yet, we didn't act swiftly. We knew it was happening, just not to what extent. You can argue what you wish, but obviously, you don't research your statements. Second, we did turn away the Jews and that was a big mistake on our part. Then again, we also interned the Japanese in pseudo concentration camps. Our actions really weren't at their peak back them. However, we did get our ducks in a row. Then again, we had Japan attacking us first and Germany to deal with. I see you stopped making your baseless allegations about Japan being a minor player in the war...
Also, I completely noticed you dropped your argument about Christianity. I knew REALITY an ACTUAL facts would put an end to your arguments. So if you wish to claim Muslims are out to get you, then by far Christians are too. Christianity's past is so tainted, one might think the sacrament is the blood of the people they've killed in history and not of Jesus..... | |
| | | | | | | | | | moonpuppy
join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Immunity said by jc100 :I WILL TRY ONE LAST TIME with you. First, Germany never attacked us but they made an official declaration of war after we embargoed them for oil and assets. Hence, after being attacked by Japan just a few days earlier, why the hell WOULD we wait for Germany to decimate Europe further and make it to our soil? Once again, you make connections that don't exist. IRAQ NEVER declared war on the U.S. formally or unofficially. There was NEVER a declaration by Saddam to Attack the U.S. with military might. The only time he ever made threats were when WE ATTACKED HIM. Try getting your history straight. It really isn't going well for you. Why would we wait for Iraq to attack us since we had sanctions on them?
said by jc100 :Second, I know why Germany didn't get the bomb. A large part was them losing their materials but they also lost the war before it was finished. However, that's an aside note. What you STILL DON'T UNDERSTAND is that we used the atomic bomb on Japan to save millions of our soldiers lives. Russia had NOTHING to do with us dropping the bomb. The justification for using it was that the amount of troops it would take to secure the Japanese mainland would be in the millions, a high cost seeing we lost so many in Europe. Before you speak further, GOOGLE a reputable site and not some contrived version of history. Russia only went into japan AFTER we dropped the bombs. Neither the U.S. or Russia wanted to enter ground warfare due to the amount of lives that would have been lost.. Who was your history teacher, the Emperor of Japan? You definitely DO NOT know your facts. Look up Operation August Storm and tell me Russia had no plans for Japan. They went in on August 8th. Little Boy was dropped on Hiroshima on the 6th.
said by jc100 :As for Genocide in Europe, we had reports. Yet, we didn't act swiftly. We knew it was happening, just not to what extent. You can argue what you wish, but obviously, you don't research your statements. Second, we did turn away the Jews and that was a big mistake on our part. Then again, we also interned the Japanese in pseudo concentration camps. Our actions really weren't at their peak back them. However, we did get our ducks in a row. Then again, we had Japan attacking us first and Germany to deal with. I see you stopped making your baseless allegations about Japan being a minor player in the war... You forgot Germans and German-Americans were also interred in camps. Not many of them but some were.
Also, I never said Japan was a minor player. The focus of the war was Europe first and Japan second. From December 7th, 1941 until June 6th, 1942, the Japanese were gaining ground.
said by jc100 :Also, I completely noticed you dropped your argument about Christianity. I knew REALITY an ACTUAL facts would put an end to your arguments. So if you wish to claim Muslims are out to get you, then by far Christians are too. Christianity's past is so tainted, one might think the sacrament is the blood of the people they've killed in history and not of Jesus..... Didn't drop the argument. You merely used it but I will answer your question. Other than Eric Rudolph (who killed abortion doctors), where are all the Christian suicide bombers? Can't use McViegh since he was not very religious and he lived. Where are the massive Christian suicide bombers supported by a government?
Every single argument you put forth as a reason to attack Germany can be used in the same context to attack Iraq. You've got sanctions, genocide and you even had declarations of war (against the west in general.)
Keep trying. | |
| | | | | | | | | | jc100
join:2002-04-10
| Re: Immunity Iraq to attack us? They never even hinted at the fact they plan to. Hell, we attacked them first, on two seperate occasions. This latest one didn't even have cuase. Still, why don't we invade Sweden, England, Norway. They MIGHT attack us in the distant future for some reason or another. Let's be pre-emptive. Better yet, let's just go into venezuela and knock out Chavez. He's not willing to share his Oil and has formed agreements with other South American Countries. Damn him to hell. Let's just go invade them as they keep talking too much. While we're at it, how about Cuba? Hell, why not everyone in the world. At some point or another, someone has said bad things against us. Why not just make the world the U.S. confederacy. You know, take over everyone and make them our territories while we at it. We're just so damn good at controlling Iraq (more sarcasm), why dont we bring our joy of destruction to everyone!! GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO USA!!!... Sarcasm aside, what are you smoking? You seriously amaze me.
Next topic, do you like repeating me or you really bored? "Look up Operation August Storm and tell me Russia had no plans for Japan. They went in on August 8th. Little Boy was dropped on Hiroshima on the 6th." DIDN'T I say ten times over THAT no one wanted to enter Japan with ground forces, not even Russia. You proceeded to tell me that Russia was going to beat us to the punch. NOW, you state exactly what I stated. RUSSIA only entered AFTER we dropped the bomb. My god man, your history sucks. The bomb ended the war with Japan, and the troops cleaned up the mess on all sides. Russia also Entered Berlin and other areas. What's your point?
Charles Taylor - It doesn't matter how you die, just that you are dead. Who gives a flying "F*CK" if the Christians used suicide bombers, guns, or spears. THEY STILL MURDERED MILLIONS IN HISTORY. The end result is the same, they killed people in the name of their religion. So what if it's not by a suicide bomb. Those people are dead. You my friend have just lost any and all my respect. My god. I didn't think people of your caliber still existed, but I guess they do. Do me a favor, go to someone who has just died and try speaking with them. They don't answer, RIGHT? Why? They are dead, whether it be from a heart attack, cancer, or a gunshot. The results the same. WHO CARES the method used!
Last, NO. Every argument I gave cannot apply to Iraq. WHERE did Iraq formally declare war on the U.S. Where was Iraqs involvement in 9/11. Answer those two with some hard facts. You won't find them. Hence, my argument for Germany is FAR DIFFERENT than Iraq. Sanctions do not just give cause to go to war. Actions do. Iraq didn't do anything aggressive towards us. As for the genocide, GET IT THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULL. It was twenty plus years ago. Apparently Regan and Bush didn't care about it. Bush entered to save Kuwait, not to depose Saddam for Genocide. So to use that as an argument for today's war is not even valid. GROW UP! | |
| | | | | | | | | | moonpuppy
join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Immunity said by jc100 :Iraq to attack us? They never even hinted at the fact they plan to. Hell, we attacked them first, on two seperate occasions. This latest one didn't even have cuase. Still, why don't we invade Sweden, England, Norway. They MIGHT attack us in the distant future for some reason or another. Let's be pre-emptive. Better yet, let's just go into venezuela and knock out Chavez. He's not willing to share his Oil and has formed agreements with other South American Countries. Damn him to hell. Let's just go invade them as they keep talking too much. While we're at it, how about Cuba? Hell, why not everyone in the world. At some point or another, someone has said bad things against us. Why not just make the world the U.S. confederacy. You know, take over everyone and make them our territories while we at it. We're just so damn good at controlling Iraq (more sarcasm), why dont we bring our joy of destruction to everyone!! GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO USA!!!... Sarcasm aside, what are you smoking? You seriously amaze me. So why did we attack Germany? A declaration of war? Iran attacked our soil. In case you don't realize it, embassies are sovereign soil of the countries that run them. Sweden, England and Norway have made no moves towards us. Venezuela on the other hand has made threats and if you knew anything about their mentality, you would know he is all talk. And, yes, I know people from Venezuela and other South American countries and I can tell you, some of those leaders have told Chavez to STFU.
said by jc100 :Next topic, do you like repeating me or you really bored? "Look up Operation August Storm and tell me Russia had no plans for Japan. They went in on August 8th. Little Boy was dropped on Hiroshima on the 6th." DIDN'T I say ten times over THAT no one wanted to enter Japan with ground forces, not even Russia. You proceeded to tell me that Russia was going to beat us to the punch. NOW, you state exactly what I stated. RUSSIA only entered AFTER we dropped the bomb. My god man, your history sucks. The bomb ended the war with Japan, and the troops cleaned up the mess on all sides. Russia also Entered Berlin and other areas. What's your point? And what did Russia do with their part of Germany? The Russians were looking for more territory as a buffer zone. We wanted a quick end to the war and the bombs helped that. Kind of funny that Russia finally comes in after he thought Japan was going to lose and thought they could get some extra land out of it.
said by jc100 :Charles Taylor - It doesn't matter how you die, just that you are dead. Who gives a flying "F*CK" if the Christians used suicide bombers, guns, or spears. THEY STILL MURDERED MILLIONS IN HISTORY. The end result is the same, they killed people in the name of their religion. So what if it's not by a suicide bomb. Those people are dead. You my friend have just lost any and all my respect. My god. I didn't think people of your caliber still existed, but I guess they do. Do me a favor, go to someone who has just died and try speaking with them. They don't answer, RIGHT? Why? They are dead, whether it be from a heart attack, cancer, or a gunshot. The results the same. WHO CARES the method used! Show me where Christians now are killing massive amounts of people?
You trying to rationalize this shows your complete ignorance and willingness to absolve muslims of killing because they are righting some wrong. Muslims did their fair share of murder too but you seem to think that is o.k.
said by jc100 :Last, NO. Every argument I gave cannot apply to Iraq. WHERE did Iraq formally declare war on the U.S. Where was Iraqs involvement in 9/11. Answer those two with some hard facts. You won't find them. Hence, my argument for Germany is FAR DIFFERENT than Iraq. Sanctions do not just give cause to go to war. Actions do. Iraq didn't do anything aggressive towards us. As for the genocide, GET IT THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULL. It was twenty plus years ago. Apparently Regan and Bush didn't care about it. Bush entered to save Kuwait, not to depose Saddam for Genocide. So to use that as an argument for today's war is not even valid. GROW UP! Iraq did support terrorism.
»www.cfr.org/publication/9513/
Maybe you need to stop wearing those liberal blinders and open up your eyes.
Funny how you never bring up Clinton when he bombed some supposed terrorist camps after Monica Lewinsky came out in the news. "Wag the Dog."  | |
| | | | | | | | | | jc100
join:2002-04-10
| Re: Immunity You know what. I'm done rehashing the same argument with you. A declaration of war after being attacked four days prior has serious ground. We got surprised attack by Japan and now Germany is threatening us with military action. Yet, you don't seem to get it and I'm not going to explain. Read my post again.
As for those other countries, why not. You are advocating going after the world. Why not just take down everyone. Hell, friend can turn enemy in no time. What's that saying, keep your enemies close and you friends closer. They are the ones who have access to do harm. By your rationale, anyone speaking rhetoric should be taken down by military action. We've seen how well the wars this century have gone with Korea, Vietnam, and Now Iraq. Venezuela, Iran, and Cuba next. Rhetoric or not, they are threatening us, so let's go bomb the hell out of them. O wait, rhetoric counts for squat. None have officially declared war. As per Irans actions, you keep bringing up events twenty and thirty years ago. It's 2007 bud, not 1981. Different leadership. While you use the past in making a decision, you don't use it as the sole basis for stupid decisions. IE IRAQ.
On the Russians. Sure they partitioned land. They also fought beside us. What's your point? You don't have one other than misconstrue facts over and over. We dropped the bomb. NO ONE WENT IN BEFORE we did. You made the claim Russia was power hungry over land. Well gee, I don't care what battle you refer to. Please refresh my memory on east and west Japan under Russia or where we fought Russia in Japan? We didn't. Great. So stop spitting out crap you have no understanding about. The atomic bomb was used to stop Japan and prevent millions of casualties on our end. Only after dropping the bomb did the U.S. and Russia Enter. Obviously, Russia wasn't too concerned with taking Japan. I'll await your wonderful "mispoken facts" response telling me the heroic battle between Russia and the U.S. On Japanese Soil.
"Show me where Christians now are killing massive amounts of people?"
You trying to rationalize this shows your complete ignorance and willingness to absolve muslims of killing because they are righting some wrong. Muslims did their fair share of murder too but you seem to think that is o.k.
Now? Who cares about now. 1995 with 100-200,000 Dead Muslims at Christian Serb Hands not good enough? Hell in the last 100 years they've been responsible for around Eight million Deaths. I am not justifying ANYONE's actions for murder. I am merely saying your IGNORANT Racism towards Muslims is no more justified than it should be towards Christians. After all, Christians have killed more people in the last Hundred years than Muslims in the last several centuries. Hence, if you want to make the argument Muslims are Terrorists, it so can be made towards Christians too.
Nice pseudo link on Iraq. Now get me a real source with RELIABLE facts. CFR, who the hell are they? Second, the article you pointed to is from 2005 when WE CLAIMED there were links to terror. We found out otherwise, haven't we? So cut the crap. Want me to find a link from 1981 where Regan states Star Wars will be an overwhelming success? | |
| | | | | | | | | | moonpuppy
join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Immunity said by jc100 :Mindless rantings. Each time you say you are done, you keep coming back.
Face it, your entire argument is nothing more than a rant against President Bush and Republicans and you will never see truth or logic when it contradicts your views. If you ever open your eyes (which remains quite doubtful), you will see that politicians (whether Democrat or Republican) will always look out for their best interests and not those of the country as a whole. Until you realize that, you will have nightmares of Republicans dancing around with illegal wiretaps and provocations of war.
And, if you bothered to do any research, you would have realized that most of these wiretaps were on calls that originated OUTSIDE the US which means they have very little protection under US law. I would be surprised if these calls were originally recorded here and not in some other country whose wire tapping laws are either negligible or non-existent. | |
| | | | | | | | | | jc100
join:2002-04-10
1 edit | Re: Immunity First and Foremost, ALMOST ALL Republicans voted for this. However, you don't bother to read down where I also Chastised the large percentage of Democrats who did, too. All but those 62-66 Democrats (forget number), don't deserve to be re-elected for going along with this foolishness. Hence, my argument has more merit than yours. Your argument is based of sheer ignorance of both history and mankind. You seem to make things one sided about the Muslims being out to kill everyone. I've proven you wrong EACH AND EVERY TIME with hard facts. You seem to be oblivious to reality.
Christians are far worse historically than Muslims. However, bad behavior is bad behavior. None of it should be tolerated, no matter who it is coming from. However, in dealing with it, there's a certain level of action thats required. I said it before, parking barriers by federal buildings, metal detectors, and increased airport security are fine. Those dont intrude on our every day lives. However, WIRETAPS are not. You obviously don't know history, which doesn't surprise me since you've gotten it wrong each and every time you've spoken. However, the FBI just got audited and it was found over 100 COPIED letters were mailed out DEMANDING information on Americans, in cases where such information was not required. More or less, the government is using these laws to spy on US and AVOID the checks and balances of the court. Likewise, who knows who they are monitoring. You and I don't got a list of calls. Obviously, they could be tapping into our phones, and without the courts overseeing it, we'll never know. That's the problem in a nutshell and you are playing naive in thinking the government has our best interest at heart here. I'll let you believe that. No one is going to force someone with blinders to change. | |
| | | | | | | | | | moonpuppy
join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Immunity All you have proven is your lack of understanding and complete ignorance of history.
I corrected you once before when you CLAIMED that the Democrats were unanimous in their voting about the Patriot Act. You argued semantics. I brought FACTS and not something that could be questioned but the Federal Record. You still tried to say Democrats were against this.
Do I think the FBI and government in general make stupid moves. Of course they do. However, I don't lay blame on just one person, I blame the entire structure. As for those Democrats who did not vote for the Act, where are they? Why aren't they yelling from very mountaintop, "I TOLD YOU SO!"
And if you think Hillary or Obama will repeal it, you will be sorely disappointed.
As for Christians killing more people, a)show some facts and b)the Muslims seem to be catching up rather quickly. BTW, if you are not a Muslim, then you are either to be killed or a slave according to radical Islam.
Better calm down before you have a stroke. | |
| | | | | | | | | | jc100
join:2002-04-10
1 edit | Re: Immunity You are completely a HOPELESS cause. FIRST, wake up from your delusion. I NEVER CLAIMED unanimous voting on the Patriot Act. Go find where I stated this. On the complete contrast, I SAID ALMOST all Republicans voted for it and around 62-66 Democrats voted no. I never once made the allegation you mention. I vehemently stated that those Democrats not in the 62-66 should be OUSTERED. READ CAREFULLY AND NOT WHAT YOU WISH TO SEE. Hence, FACTS aren't in your dictionary are they? Do you make up things as you go. Time and Time again I've caught your fallacies.
As for the FBI, they are abusing their power because we are letting them. By removing the courts and checks and balances, we have given them the right to do whatever they wish with no oversight. PLAIN AND SIMPLE. The same for the NSA. The only thing we have to fear is fear itself when we unilaterally hand away our rights to one entity, and expect them not to go above and beyond their call of duty. It's dangerous to give such power to one person, but you'll never see this once again. To the point the Democrats aren't acting, they have LIMITED the Patriot Act and put stipulations. It's more than the Republicans did with their rubber stamps. SOmething is better than nothing at this point. Id rather have some gains than more losses. STill, the whole damn document needs to be repealed.
On Christian / Muslim Genocide, Muslims aren't even close. Please name me 7 million people Muslims have killed since 1940. Hitler, sponsored by the Methodist and Catholic Church exterminated 6 million. The Bosnian Serbs killed 1-200,000. Let's not forget the wars started by Christian Missionaries FORCING their beliefs onto people in Africa. We all know how much of a mess that place is in some countries. Good old colonialism, favoritism, and forced religion have mucked that place up. So by far, Christians drinking the sacrament are slurping the blood of those who they have killed. OF which includes people who have refused to convert (Inquisition and such). However, believe what you wish. Either way, bad behavior and murder isn't justified but take your IGNORANCE and STUPIDITY elsewhere. It wasn't but ten years ago the Serbs MURDERED those 100-200,000 Muslims and dropped them in mass graves. War Crime Trials are still taking place for those.
| |
| | | | | | | | | | moonpuppy
join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Immunity said by jc100 :You are completely a HOPELESS cause. FIRST, wake up from your delusion. I NEVER CLAIMED unanimous voting on the Patriot Act. Go find where I stated this. On the complete contrast, I SAID ALMOST all Republicans voted for it and around 62-66 voted no. I never once made the allegation you mention. I vehemently stated that those Democrats not in the 62-66 should be OUSTERED. READ CAREFULLY AND NOT WHAT YOU WISH TO SEE. Hence, FACTS aren't in your dictionary are they? Do you make up things as you go. Time and Time again I've caught your fallacies. Your own words RIGHT HERE:
»Re: People keep telling me Im Wrong
You used the word UNANIMOUS. Not "nearly" unanimous until I corrected you. All but 2 Democrats in the Senate voted for it. One against and one abstained. And you still keep forgetting the 3 Republicans in the House who voted against it. You = owned.
said by jc100 :As for the FBI, they are abusing their power because we are letting them. By removing the courts and checks and balances, we have given them the right to do whatever they wish with no oversight. PLAIN AND SIMPLE. The same for the NSA. The only thing we have to fear is fear itself when we unilaterally hand away our rights to one entity, and expect them not to go above and beyond their call of duty. It's dangerous to give such power to one person, but you'll never see this once again. To the point the Democrats aren't acting, they have LIMITED the Patriot Act and put stipulations. It's more than the Republicans did with their rubber stamps. SOmething is better than nothing at this point. Id rather have some gains than more losses. STill, the whole damn document needs to be repealed. The democrats did and do nothing except cry about the war. If a bill fails, re-introduce it until the American people say something and force the hand of the republicans. If not then they are just the same.
said by jc100 :On Christian / Muslim Genocide, Muslims aren't even close. Please name me 7 million people Muslims have killed since 1940. Hitler, sponsored by the Methodist and Catholic Church exterminated 6 million. The Bosnian Serbs killed 1-200,000. Let's not forget the wars started by Christian Missionaries FORCING their beliefs onto people in Africa. We all know how much of a mess that place is in some countries. Good old colonialism, favoritism, and forced religion have mucked that place up. So by far, Christians drinking the sacrament are slurping the blood of those who they have killed. OF which includes people who have refused to convert (Inquisition and such). However, believe what you wish. Either way, bad behavior and murder isn't justified but take your IGNORANCE and STUPIDITY elsewhere. It wasn't but ten years ago the Serbs MURDERED those 100-200,000 Muslims and dropped them in mass graves. War Crime Trials are still taking place for those. Lesso already responded with a list of Muslim attorcities, I'd suggest you read them unless you had too much Kool Aid. | |
| | | | | | | | | | jc100
join:2002-04-10
1 edit | Re: Immunity And yet...
In the house, you will see 64 voted no. Only 3 Republicans. Hence, I do blame democrats, but not all. On the other hand, the Republicans voted unanimously to piss away your rights. At least 66 democrats between the house and senate spoke their mind. It's more than the opposite party did.
I am steadfast right by saying ALMOST UNANIMOUS. So while you might have corrected me on saying 1 or whatever, I WAS NOT FAR OFF. So the point stands. THREE REPUBLICANS and 61 DEMOCRATS. Thats 20X times the Republicans. POINT AND MATCH.!
The democrats did and do nothing except cry about the war. If a bill fails, re-introduce it until the American people say something and force the hand of the republicans. If not then they are just the same.
Um they aren't crying. They are CONTINUING to try and pass bills. Yet, the Republicans WHO HATE AMERICANS obviously and wish for war, DO NOT let anything change. Stay the course is the same MANTRA we have heard from Bush since Iraq began. Stay the course? Really? It's failed over and over and you want to keep trying? I swear, Bush and his Party are filled with certifiable retards. Last time I checked, if something doesn't work, you modify your strategy. NOT THE REPUBLICANS. You STAY the course. Let's not Forget that Republicans have had Control of Congress from 1995-2001 and 2003-2006. Between 2001 and 2003 they controlled the House. Hence, they have dictated the policy that has led us to much of our quagmire. Whine, sure they don't whine. Only one person in Congress has a kid in office. It's not their sons or daughters dying. They could care less. They care about the Black Gold that Iraq possess, not about Saddam. They have wealth to gain, and nothing to lose. After all, if they did, why did Bush Sr save the Kuwaiti oil fields in 1990 and not depose Saddam for War Crimes then? Like father Like Son..
"Lesso already responded with a list of Muslim attorcities, I'd suggest you read them unless you had too much Kool Aid."
And I responded to Lessop. I suggest you read my reply. Obviously, your bigoted mentality won't change, but give it a read anyway. In the mean time, should I consider you a TERRORIST. My guess, you are Christian. Your Brotheren have MURDERED around 7 million people in this past century! I guess that qualifies you as one, since you are grouping all Muslims in the same boat. So from this point on, when we say Terrorist, this will be including you and your Fellow Christians. | |
| | | | | | | | | | moonpuppy
join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Immunity said by jc100 :And yet... In the house, you will see 64 voted no. Only 3 Republicans. Hence, I do blame democrats, but not all. On the other hand, the Republicans voted unanimously to piss away your rights. At least 66 democrats between the house and senate spoke their mind. It's more than the opposite party did. I am steadfast right by saying ALMOST UNANIMOUS. So while you might have corrected me on saying 1 or whatever, I WAS NOT FAR OFF. So the point stands. THREE REPUBLICANS and 61 DEMOCRATS. Thats 20X times the Republicans. POINT AND MATCH.! Contradiction in the same post. Almost unanimous does not equal unanimous. You = owned again.
said by jc100 :Um they aren't crying. They are CONTINUING to try and pass bills. Yeah, Nancy Pelosi is really changing things in Congress. Is that why the DEMOCRATICALLY CONTROLLED CONGRESS has a lower approval rating than the President?
said by jc100 :And I responded to Lessop. I suggest you read my reply. Obviously, your bigoted mentality won't change, but give it a read anyway. In the mean time, should I consider you a Terrorist. My guess, you are Christian. Your Brotheren have MURDERED around 7 million people in this past century! i guess that qualifies you as one, since you are grouping all Muslims in the same boat. ASSumptions own you again. Keep grasping at straws. Still looking for those black helicopters circling your house?
And you did not respond to his list of Muslim atrocities.
»Re: They have endangered our society. | |
| | | | | | | | | | jc100
join:2002-04-10
2 edits | Re: Immunity An overstatement is not an inaccuracy. Its simply an overstatement. It doesn't make my point any less valid that three Republicans versus 64 Democrats voted against it. Tit for tatt. You sound like a baby whining on semantics. Either way, MOST OF THE REPUBLICANS, voted to STRIP AMERICANS of our rights. IE. Republicans obviously do not Cherish America. What happened to small government. We have more to fear from the Republican Right and A Sizeable portion of Democrats voting for this Molarchy than we do the terrorists. It's the Republican right who have sold our rights away on a fictitious sense that terrorists are out to get us, just like the big bad boogy man.
"Yeah, Nancy Pelosi is really changing things in Congress. Is that why the DEMOCRATICALLY CONTROLLED CONGRESS has a lower approval rating than the President?"
That's because the Republicans aren't letting legislation pass. More or less the hatred for Republicans put the Democrats in office. Unfortunately, those stay the course Republicans would rather see our boys die, than come up with a real plan. They had four years of TOTAL control to do so. Guess what, they offered us NOTHING but more problems and heartaches. America is FED UP NOTHING is being accomplished. It's by no fault of the Democrats now who are trying, but having their plans rejected by the IGNORANCE of the Republican Party not wanting a solution.
As for LESSOP. I thought you meant this post. I'm not going to respond to his timeline. You can tell me what you wish, but that timeline doesn't prove much at all. Muslims havent murdered around 10 million people historically.
Millions of Muslims dead during the Crusades.
Millions dead during the Spanish Inquisition. That same rhetoric you're tossing out now. Convert or Die.
Six million Dead During the Holocaust. Hitler, the Methodist, and Catholic Church Per perpetrated this.
Last, but not least, 100-200,000 Dead to to Christians in Bosnia.
So TERRORIST, which mantra do you follow? A hatred for your fellow man and people different than yourselves. Obviously, Christians love thy neighbor so much, that they just kill them. Or do we go with the logic of Christians overwhelming tolerance for Gays and Blacks historically? We're not even factoring in the deaths and hate crimes committed there. I know, we'll right you off as a Bigot and Terrorist along with your buddy Lesop. After all, if all Muslims are Terrorists, then so are ALL Christians. His timeline didn't even pale to the MURDEROUS history of your religion. POINT AND MATCH!!! Case CLOSED!
| |
| | | | | | | | | | moonpuppy
join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Immunity said by jc100 :An overstatement is not an inaccuracy. Its simply an overstatement. It doesn't make my point any less valid that three Republicans versus 64 Democrats voted against it. Tit for tatt. You sound like a baby whining on semantics. Either way, MOST OF THE REPUBLICANS, voted to STRIP AMERICANS of our rights. IE. Republicans obviously do not Cherish America. What happened to small government. We have more to fear from the Republican Right and A Sizeable portion of Democrats voting for this Molarchy than we do the terrorists. It's the Republican right who have sold our rights away on a fictitious sense that terrorists are out to get us, just like the big bad boogy man. Backpeddle boy, backpeddle. Overstatement = inaccuracy.
If the Democrats can't control Congress then why did they say they were going to clean things up?
said by jc100 :That's because the Republicans aren't letting legislation pass. More or less the hatred for Republicans put the Democrats in office. Unfortunately, those stay the course Republicans would rather see our boys die, than come up with a real plan. They had four years of TOTAL control to do so. Guess what, they offered us NOTHING but more problems and heartaches. America is FED UP NOTHING is being accomplished. It's by no fault of the Democrats now who are trying, but having their plans rejected by the IGNORANCE of the Republican Party not wanting a solution. Again, the Democrats are just as bad if not worse for the political BS they spoon fed you and the rest of the moveon.org idiots.
said by jc100 :As for LESSOP. I thought you meant this post. I'm not going to respond to his timeline. You can tell me what you wish, but that timeline doesn't prove much at all. Muslims havent murdered around 10 million people historically. Millions of Muslims dead during the Crusades. Millions dead during the Spanish Inquisition. That same rhetoric you're tossing out now. Convert or Die. Millions during the Spanish Inquisition? Care to back that up with facts or are you trying to shovel more BS.
said by jc100 :Six million Dead During the Holocaust. Hitler, the Methodist, and Catholic Church Per perpetrated this. Last, but not least, 100-200,000 Dead to to Christians in Bosnia. So TERRORIST, which mantra do you follow? A hatred for your fellow man and people different than yourselves. Obviously, Christians love thy neighbor so much, that they just kill them. Or do we go with the logic of Christians overwhelming tolerance for Gays and Blacks historically? We're not even factoring in the deaths and hate crimes committed there. I know, we'll right you off as a Bigot and Terrorist along with your buddy Lesop. After all, if all Muslims are Terrorists, then so are ALL Christians. His timeline didn't even pale to the MURDEROUS history of your religion. POINT AND MATCH!!! Case CLOSED! And the same argument you push for Christianity applies to Muslims too (since you love to paint with a broad brush.)
Iranian Revolution where hundreds were executed for not being Muslim enough. Taliban rule in Afghanistan. Technology is bad, music is bad, alcohol is bad, uncovered women should be stoned.....the list goes on.
That glass house of yours must have a lot of broken windows. | |
| | | | | | | | | | jc100
join:2002-04-10
1 edit | Re: Immunity Backpeddle? NO. Correct an overstatement yes. I can admit I misquoted. However, a mistatement where the numbers are close is not a real fallacy. 0 or three. Tit for TATT. It's a very MINIMAL number.
"If the Democrats can't control Congress then why did they say they were going to clean things up?"
I said they are TRYING. I didn't say they are succeeding. Why aren't they? Their bills are being defeated by Anti-America Republicans who wish to see more of our boys die, yet offer no real solutions themselves. In the four years of 100 percent control, what solutions did they bring us? Please tell me how Iraq is solved and we're not there. Bush was the Hero of the day, and everything ended peachy. O wait, Bush said stayed the course, the Republican Rubber Stamp congress didn't solve anything, and we're still in a quagmire. All the time, Democrats are at least making an effort. This effort is of course being shot down by those same Republicans.
"Millions during the Spanish Inquisition? Care to back that up with facts or are you trying to shovel more BS."
Unfortunately, there are no hard numbers. Records didn't exist. All that can be proven is large numbers of people fled. My guess would be hundred of thousands, maybe more. Once again, records don't exist that validate much. However, look at any genocide and one can easily see millions flee when they occur. To assume the same didn't happen would be naive. Here's one take on the genocide of the Inquisition.
»www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso···ion.html
More information follows below. Most was gathered from various places.
Some predict 150,000 Trials took place, of which some led to death. There are no real numbers of who died as a result. Let's not forget, when you factor those killed as a result of the war, you must factor in deaths of refugees. This is something their estimates do not.... The number is in the air. The one article claims 3-4 percent of 150,000 died directly (5000), yet no hard evidence is offered. Frankly, no one knows since records sucked. For all you and I can argue, every one of those people could have died, and it can't be disproven. On the other hand, the low numbers could be right. Its impossible to settle on a figure. Either way, my argument stands even if not millions, probably 10s of thousands up to maybe 100,000 or more when you factor in the refugees who probably fled and fell victim to the ailments. This is a valid assessment, as today when war refugees flee, the factor them in to the death toll.
Finally, I stated bad behavior is bad behavior. What makes you a Terrorist also makes those who support Muslim Fanaticism one. Obviously, your steadfast belief in Christianity and it's bad deeds, also applies to all. Since you are hardline defending the back actions of the church, you are no different than the radical Muslims defending suicide bombings. I did state this. You just can't read. | |
| | | | | | | | vinnie97
join:2003-12-05
Mesquite, TX
| said by jc100 :Best yet, and most famous, the crusades had the Christians Murdering Muslims yet again. Ah yes, good old Christianity and its blood filled past. I don't remember reading too many condemnations by the Church on these acts either. Should I conclude then that all of Christianity supports this barbarity and I have more to fear from them than the Muslims. After all, Christianity has murdered millions in the name of it's religion, too. Try to stay on-topic. The West is currently under threat by MUSLIM extremism/jihadism. | |
| | | | | | | | | jc100
join:2002-04-10
| Re: Immunity I am on topic. You are saying we're under thread and I am saying it's fear mongering, combined with being a bigot. To say that all 1.2 billion Muslims are out to get the U.S., might as well be concluding all 1.5 Million Christians are equally so. It's an asinine assumption that holds no merits. While a small minority wishes to perpetrate acts, its a very small minority. I already stated a few preventative measures are key. Then again, we have preventions for DUI, and other such things. However, such preventions should not be out of fear and should not remove rights. How would you like the government to say that due to murder, all americans have to wear tracking devices. Since there are 20-22,000 Murders a year, we want to be able to find you immediately if something happens. That way, if you are hurt, we can know your every move? To that, I am sure you'd say hell no, I am a big boy. SO what's the difference then? You need some overzealous government removing your freedoms in order to supposedly make you safer? You no longer a big boy, and must trade rights for supposed security. Obviously, we are no safer now than before. The only thing we are is LESS FREE. | |
| | | | | | | | | | vinnie97
join:2003-12-05
Mesquite, TX | Re: Immunity Apparently, you've kept a blind eye to the Muslim extremism on display in our recent times the world over to suggest there's no threat. You know, the kind in Spain, England, Mideast and Far East? | |
| | | | | | |
still2lazy2login
@comcast.net
| said by moonpuppy :Maybe you forgot or didn't know that FDR a DEMOCRATIC President put out massive rumors that Germany was going to ally itself with Mexico and attack us from the south. FDR was desperate to get into WW2 in Europe but was not allowed to by Congress. Please, leave parties out of this. Democrats and republicans have changed views countless times. I currently consider myself a Democrat, but I would have fully supported Lincoln in his era on his anti-slavery position (not so much his suspension of habeas corpus (much like our current President), though...) | |
| | | | | | | | moonpuppy
join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Immunity said by still2lazy2login :
Please, leave parties out of this. Democrats and republicans have changed views countless times. I currently consider myself a Democrat, but I would have fully supported Lincoln in his era on his anti-slavery position (not so much his suspension of habeas corpus (much like our current President), though...)
Sure, when people stop blaming the Republican Party for everything and start blaming politicians in general. | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | jc100
join:2002-04-10
1 edit | Re: Immunity Wifi,
Your wit and sarcasm make light of my argument. I am not saying ignore the problem. However, many countries violate sanctions. However, that doesn't call for war. Saddam was not being hostile to his neighbors and nor was genocide taking place again. In all respect, his evasiveness was a thorn in the U.N's side but nothing more. Hell look at Castro / Cuba, Venezuela, Sudan, and many other countries. Many countries don't follow our mandates. Should we start systematically entering every last one of them whenever they fail to agree with us? By your justification alone, we should just declare war on everyone and occupy the world. That'll work well, seeing how successful we've been in Iraq and all. Let me tell you something. It's called PICKING AND CHOOSING your battles wisely. You can't go after everyone for everything. It simply won't work. War should be a decision of last results. In the case of Iraq, war would have been justified in the 1980s to stop Saddam of genocide. Yet, twenty years later, the rationale to enter was a MISTAKE. He had no WMDS, he hadn't attacked his neighbors, and genocide had ceased. Bush just needed someone to blame for 9/11 and Iraq seemed to be the easy target. Please find me the Iraqi hijacker in 9/11. I'm still waiting. Guess what, there were none and we knew that early on. Therefore, the mess we've created in Iraq is far from being justified.
As for dealing with problems in this country, charity starts at home. Before we go and invade countries needlessly, maybe we should solve our own problems. After all, crime, car crashes, poverty, take more lives than terrorism has in this country. I said it before. We shouldn't just ignore the threat. However, STRIPPING Americans of their rights via fear mongering (terrorists out to get you) is neither a justified response either. Merely, increased airport security, barriers in front of federal buildings, and metal detectors would be more reasonable responses. NOT THE PATRIOT ACT, NSA WIRETAPPING, and an overzealous government hell bent on destroying the foundation of this country! | |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| So if we follow your logic, we should not have invaded Northern Africa and Europe after Pearl Harbor?
Maybe we shouldn't have attacked Afghanistan either? There were no Afghans involved in 9/11 either, right?
--
Only SHATNER is Kirk. | |
| | | | | | | jc100
join:2002-04-10
| Re: Immunity Follow what logic? I never said we shouldn't have invaded in WW2. There's a difference between WW2 and now. ARE YOU NOT READING what I wrote. I'm not going to rehash the argument 50 times. WW2 the Japanese attacked US. Germany FORMALLY declared war on us a few days later. Hence, we reacted, instead of waiting for another country to hit our soil a second time in the same week.
As for 9/11. Iraq HAD nothing to do with it. On the other hand, the Taliban did. There's your constructive difference. The Taliban is in cohoots with Al Qaeda who directly perpetrated the attack. Saddam was not. Very simple. Need I said more? | |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: Immunity said by jc100 :There's a difference between WW2 and now. ARE YOU NOT READING what I wrote. There's nothing to read, your apologies for the enemy are at best an incoherent, nonsensical rant.
--
Only SHATNER is Kirk. | |
| | | | | | | | | jc100
join:2002-04-10
| Re: Immunity Apologies for what enemies? The Christians who have Murdered around 7 or so Million people this very century. I should consider all Christians to be terrorists by your rationale. After all, the Methodist and Catholic Church sponsored a Catholic Named Hitler with the Holocaust. Let's not forget the Bosnian War where 100-200,000 Christian Serbs murdered the Muslims and buried them in Mass graves. Gruesome enough for you? There's nothing incoherent about the genocidal past of Christians. I don't remember too many Condemnations by the Church on Bosnia either. Better yet, I remember a total and complete oversight of the whole situation until the U.N. stepped in. So no, facts aren't rambling. I'm merely pointing out that BIGOTS like yourself seem to make history one sided. I am not trying to justify anyone's actions. I am merely trying to point out history has more sides that you'd like us to believe. As for dealing with issues at home, my point stands. 4000 Dead in America do to terrorism pales in comparison to the millions dead due to murder, car crashes, poverty, and other issues this country faces. While I do not advocating turning a blind eye (some security measures such as Metal Detectors, airport security, barriers in front of federal buildings are warranted), I also don't advocate turning this country into a hysterical panic by claiming the boogy man is out to get you. We all know this rhetoric has led people like yourself into believing that losing rights has justified the means. False. Losing rights is simply losing rights. It doesn't make us any more safe, JUST LESS FREE. | |
| | | | | | | | | | moonpuppy
join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Immunity said by jc100 :Apologies for what enemies? The Christians who have Murdered around 7 or so Million people this very century. I should consider all Christians to be terrorists by your rationale. After all, the Methodist and Catholic Church sponsored a Catholic Named Hitler with the Holocaust. Show me where the Methodists supported Hitler.
If anything, he was Catholic by birth but Germany was very Lutheran and it is also known Hitler was into mystical Nordic symbols moreso than the church.
Post proof. | |
| | | | | | | | | | jc100
join:2002-04-10
| Re: Immunity Very happy to OBLIGE:
Methodist Bishop John L. Nelsen toured the U.S. on Hitler's behalf to protect his church, but in private letters indicated that he feared or hated Nazism, and so retired to Switzerland. Methodist Bishop F. H. Otto Melle took a far more collaborationist position that included apparently sincere support for Nazism. He felt that serving the Reich was both a patriotic duty and a means of advancement
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism_and_Religion
A Colleaugial Paper / Scholarly work talking about the Baptist and Methodist Influence.
Concerned, Nazi officials sought for effective means to influence foreign public opinion. Since foreigners distrusted the German media, controlled as it was by the Propaganda Ministry, it was of limited impact. The most effective way was to shape foreign public opinion from within. And so it was that Nazi authorities discovered that Methodists and Baptists, while insignificantly small in Germany , were major denominations in the Anglo-Saxon world and offered their best chance in those countries provided their German leaders could be enlisted in the Nazi cause.
»www.wallawalla.edu/index.php?id=801
..... Research, it's such a pain in the you know what. But having it, makes you feel all the better knowing you proved a Closed Minded follower of Terrorism Wrong..... | |
| | | amungus
Premium
join:2004-11-26
America
clubs:
| Your narrow train of thought doesn't seem to even have the capacity to entertain any other reasons, so why would you even ask the question?
Not that you'd care, but there could be several reasons besides having a bunch of people sifting through mostly meaningless data about who called who. "Oh look, so-and-so just called his mom and said happy birthday" ...wow that's useful. Time wasted = time gained by the other side. Surely that tidbit of reasoning resonates some brain cells somewhere.
I am always amazed when people can so blindly agree with whatever their television tells them, but then I realize that so many folks haven't got the gumption to even get off the couch for one minute and turn the thing off.
"Thinking is the hardest work there is, which is the probable reason why so few engage in it." - Henry Ford
"It’s not an exaggeration to say the U.S. intelligence community is in a near-panic about this,"
Why? Because they know that they've been doing something illegal by tapping completely useless lines?
Fine by me if we have people who actually tap what they need to tap and get some results. Not fine if they're 1)wasting time, money, resources 2)tapping innocent people for no reason.
They deserve no immunity from this. We deserve the truth. Sadly, even if we get it, I'm certain there'll be so much spin everywhere that by the time people get TOLD what to think, it'll be like cotton candy and they'll eat it up gladly - forgetting that any of it ever really mattered anyway...
[.sarcasm.]You don't matter, we've got people who love gps systems in their cars, 'onstar' to listen to everything, cell phones that'll follow you everywhere (and can also listen to everything unless you rip the battery out), and big brother - who really does love you![\sarcasm] | |
| | | 
AtlGuy
join:2000-10-17
Marietta, GA
| said by GOLFnSUN :said by jc100 : Now our rights being pissed. NSA wiretapping under Bush. Patriot Act. Military Commissions act denying a trial to anyone Bush rules an enemy combatant (american or foreigner). Ever hear of 9/11? Never happened right? The Congress gave the authority to the President 98-0 and 100-0 after 9/11. So he is using it. Thank god he is. No attacks on US soil since then. I wonder why? Because of our ultra secure borders?  | |
| | | jc100
join:2002-04-10
1 edit | No Attacks? They happen every day right? Do you not recall that there have been school shootings? Wait, those are domestic terrorism. Ah damn, I guess there have been. You damn well know if it was an Arab kid, it would be called that. Every news agency would have been on that like a pack of wolves. So give me a break. Let's not forget the second worst terrorist attack was committed by a White, Christian, American named Timothy Mcveigh. Still, these events are the oddity. We have more problems to deal with in this country when it comes to 20-22,000 Americans are murdered PER YEAR. Crime outweighs terrorism 100 to 1 on any day of the week, considering in the last 20 years, we've had 4000 deaths to do it. In that same timespan, around 500,000 Americans have been murdered. Therefore, Go do some math and you my friend will realize how foolish your statement sounds....Hence, we need to focus our efforts on real problems and not turning small ones into a way to fear monger the public into a drooling stupor. | |
| | | | 
wifi4milez
Big Russ, 1918 to 2008. Rest in Peace
join:2004-08-07
New York, NY
 ·Verizon FIOS
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
·RoadRunner Cable
 ·BroadVoice
| Re: Immunity said by jc100 :We have more problems to deal with in this country when it comes to 20-22,000 Americans are murdered PER YEAR. Crime outweighs terrorism 100 to 1 on any day of the week, considering in the last 20 years, we've had 4000 deaths to do it. In that same timespan, around 500,000 Americans have been murdered. Therefore, Go do some math and you my friend will realize how foolish your statement sounds....Hence, we need to focus our efforts on real problems and not turning small ones into a way to fear monger the public into a drooling stupor. So you are suggesting that we ignore terrorism because there are "car crashes" and "crime" in this country?? That argument sounds like it was made by a two year old. As adults, we realize that the "ignore it and it will go away" outlook on life stopped being realistic when we were in kindergarten. Which coincidentally shows the mental capacity of anyone who still believes it.....
--
я люблю Денди! | |
| | | | | jc100
join:2002-04-10
3 edits | Re: Immunity I'm not suggesting we ignore the problem at all. Merely, I am suggestion we focus more of our efforts where they belong. IE, dealing with crime, poverty, car crashes, and other issues that warrant our attention. This is not to say some actions are not worthwhile in terms of REALISTIC security measures in response to recent events. These include increased airport security, having barriers between certain buildings, and metal detectors. These actions are considered common sense and apply to all sorts of issues across the board. However, stripping away our rights, telling us how everyone's out get us, and crap like that simply shouldn't fly. It's one thing to act, it's another to over react and sell people on overzealous stupidity. As adults, we ALSO realize this, too. Obviously, you must have never left kindergarten since you don't, by your own accord. | |
| | | | | | 
wilbarger
join:2001-06-06
Quinlan, TX
| I believe that it was Franklin that wrote "people willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both"
Sadly, our panic over 9/11 has led our nation to this point. We have turned over our rights to the government of the fat cats and we will likely never get rid of the terrorism act and all that it has taken away from us. I want to puke when I think of what we have allowed ourselves to become.
--
Legalize Freedom | |
| | | ackman
join:2000-10-04
Acworth, GA
| said by GOLFnSUN :said by jc100 : Now our rights being pissed. NSA wiretapping under Bush. Patriot Act. Military Commissions act denying a trial to anyone Bush rules an enemy combatant (american or foreigner). Ever hear of 9/11? Never happened right? The Congress gave the authority to the President 98-0 and 100-0 after 9/11. So he is using it. Thank god he is. No attacks on US soil since then. I wonder why? You have no need to be that afraid, the terrorists aren't going to kill you. Bin Laden wanted us out of the "holy land", Saudi Arabia, so Bush followed his orders and pulled out of the bin sultan air base. Bin Laden also wanted oil to sell for $100/barrel, to which Mr. Bush is doing his best to get it there by invading Iraq and soon Iran. Going into Iraq took oil up to $80, going into Iran should settle it in around $130-150. Meanwhile, to avenge the 3000 people killed on 9/11, we attacked a country that had nothing to do with 9/11 or its sponsors, and estimates range from 500,000 to 1,000,000 people killed in Iraq as a result of our unilateral invasion. Not to mention the 4000+ American military and mercenaries killed. So while you're singing the praises of not getting attacked, you might want to consider the costs. | |
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See 50 replies to this post | |
| | Ahrenl
join:2004-10-26
North Andover, MA
·Verizon FIOS
| Congress gave him the authority to do it as long as he got a warrant 72 hours AFTER the fact, each and everytime. By not consulting the courts at all (secret courts at that, which just make it so SOMEBODY else knows what is going on) he broke the law, or refused to enforce the law actually. | |
| | 
Vertickle
join:2003-08-05
Madison, AL | Its all Bush's fault everybody knows that... | |
| | 
swhx7
Premium
join:2006-07-23
Elbonia
·RoadRunner Cable
1 edit | Apparently AT&T is subject to fines that supposedly would destroy the company if the law is enforced. So they're lobbying for retroactive immunity? What about the victims, thousands of Americans who have been spied upon?
And what about the rule of law? Government at every level, from the traffic cop to Congressmen, have to realize that they can't expect anyone to respect law if anyone rich enough can buy an exemption.
If AT&T is too big to be allowed to go bankrupt, then let's punish the all individuals in its management, and turn over the company to new management.
The larger issue is that AT&T was acting as a proxy to violate 4th amendment rights on behalf of the government. I've lost track of how many ways the Bush gang have trashed the Constitution now. They need to be impeached and prosecuted for that and war crimes. I hope it is not too late for USA. | |
| | | | Answer Guy
join:2006-07-28
Grass Lake, MI
| I have a great idea. Lets not give them immunity and fine them by law for every single instance of invasion of privacy. When these companies go bankrupt due to the astronomical fines, an overwhelming majority of customer, business and government systems will no longer be able to communicate. As this will no doubt destroy the entire communications network, we can all just sit around our homes and dream of the days of phone solicitors. | |
| | | Ahrenl
join:2004-10-26
North Andover, MA | Re: Immunity Yes, no one but AT&T can manage phone lines. They add sooo much value. | |
| | | | jester121
join:2003-08-09
Lake Zurich, IL
 ·surpasshosting
·ViaTalk
1 edit | Re: Immunity said by Ahrenl :Yes, no one but AT&T can manage phone lines. They add sooo much value. How well do you think the internet would operate without AT&T's backbone? | |
| | | | | Ahrenl
join:2004-10-26
North Andover, MA
·Verizon FIOS
| Re: Immunity Without the corporate nonsense that AT&T injects to push their own content. Much, much better.
THE POINT is that the networks just don't go poof if the corrupt corporate entity does. MCI worldcom was a HUGE bankruptcy, and owned that very backbone when they bit it.. my internet never stopped working, and we're all still here with the lights on.. | |
| | lesopp
join:2001-06-27
Land O Lakes, FL
1 edit | Response #1 contains a lie. The Republicans had full control from Jan 2003 to Jan 2007, that's only 4 years. The Democrats controlled the senate from Jan 2001 to Jan 2003.
Response #2 is your opinion, personally I don't think its that bad. I believe Greenspan has already said it is the Federal Reserves fault for not tightening the money supply sooner.
Please cite your sources for #3
Response #4: I watched a congressional hearing on CSPAN yesterday about the NSA program.
Those testifying described the program this way. Surveillance targets are always foreign persons calling from a foreign country. Sometimes these calls transit the US and even though both calling parties are not US citizens or in the US they have to follow FISA (as per federal court rulings) and get a warrant. He explained that even under the FISA emergency provisions it takes time and the probable cause elements have to be met before the surveillance can go forward. He then relayed an incident where three US soldiers had been captured in Iraq by Al Queada sympathizers who were trying to contact someone in another country for disposition instructions and the call transited the US. It took several days to get the warrant and they were able to retrieve the soldiers and capture the insurgents. He said they were lucky in the the person that was supposed to provide the disposition instruction was slower in responding. His position (and I agree with it) is that foreign people in foreign lands should not be afforded US constitutional protections. This is one of the big things they are trying to change.
He went on to say that sometimes a target initiates or receives a call from a someone in the US, when this happens they follow a minimization process laid out in the original FISA. If this minimization reveals no ties to criminal activities then the entire conversation including the phone number are deleted. If the call reveals ties to criminal activities then a warrant is obtained through the FISA court. He pointed out the this exact same minimization process has been applied to court approved Mafia wire taps pursuant to the 1978 FISA Law. He said they are not seeking a change to this part.
When questioned about how many times this had happened he stated since 2005 when he took the job there had been zero (0) warrant-less surveillance's, the vast majority were foreign to foreign not transiting the US and there less than 100 where they had to obtain a warrant. When asked how many times a minimization resulted the the conversation being deleted he said he would have to get back with them. When asked how many warrant-less surveillance's occurred he restated zero while he was there. Finally when asked how many warrant-less surveillance's happened before he was there he said he would have to get back with them. | |
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See 8 replies to this post | |
| moonpuppy
join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD
·Verizon Online DSL
| said by jc100 :2) Housing market IS VERY ABYSMAL!! And the reason for this is sheer stupidity of homebuyers. When I bought my house, I read the fine print and did not opt for a negative amortization loan. I didn't take the 1% payment and then cry about it jumping in 1 to 2 years. I didn't buy more house than I could afford.
Go look during Jimmy Carter's days as President when interest rates were 18% on a house. | |
| | | jc100
join:2002-04-10
| Re: Immunity Moon seems to be skipping the other points he's been proven wrong on and trying to save grace. Isn't this cute. Well that's fine and dandy you have the education to read the fine print. Are you trying to suggest that all people in this country are highly educated? (though I beg this applies to you beyond simple reading skills). After all, we still have a large portion of this country who are poor and lack the education for one reason or another. Welfare Statistics (last time I checked).. Stated 30 percent of Whites and 38 percent of blacks (13 million I think in this country), are on welfare. Let's not forget those whites that live in Appalachia and similar areas, who are dirt poor as well. Now, imagine these people working their whole lives, and saving up maybe ten thousand dollars. They decide they want to own a home and go to the bank. The bank, knowing these people speak unintelligently or do not have all the knowledge your normal citizen has, offers them a chance to go about this. There's one catch, interest goes up but that's not a problem. See, the markets been great so when your rate fixes in five years, you shouldn't have to worry about a thing. Look at this graph of historical trends. You have nothing to fear. Trust me, I am your friendly banker. For those of us with education, we read the fine print. It'd be a cold day in hell that I walk up to a car dealer, let alone a bank, and just sign my name. Yet, this simply is not always the case with those who you can easily "lead" into bad decisions. This is not to say those people do not share fault in the decision. I am merely saying your assumption everyone is as educated and intelligent is just that. Hence, we all know what they say about assumptions, don't we. You have made several during our arguments and each time, I have to prove you wrong. So let's not go making blanket statements about how everyone of these people are total idiots. Education goes a long way, and those who lack it, are often the one's who get the short end in life. It's why HITLER (remember our argument) killed those with the education first. They are less apt to question. The same goes for these people (working poor, Appalachian, minorities). Hence, they ended up taking risky deals they couldn't pay back. Blame goes all around here, and that includes this administration. Instead of act when they saw a trend developing and put a stop to it, they let it boil over to the point we see now. So yes, Bush is at fault, the banks are at fault, and the people who took the money share some of it too. | |
| | NormanS
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
·Pacific Bell - SBC
1 edit | said by jc100 :If these companies are given immunity, break out your lighters, as the constitution needs to be burned. I expect that we should have burned the U.S. Constitution in 1794 (look up the "Whiskey Rebellion"), or maybe in 1798 (look up the "Alien and Sedition Acts"). Perhaps in 1835, when President Andrew Jackson overrode a SCOTUS decision favoring the Cherokee Nation, and forcibly removed the Cherokee to the "Indian Lands" (later called, Oklahoma). Or even in 1942 (look up "Executive Order 9066).
Despite the RICO Act, the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, and the Patriot Act, I think it is a tad too soon to give up on the U.S. Constitution. We can still vote; if only we were smart enough to vote the rascals currently in office out of office.
"We have met the enemy and he is us".
~Pogo
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum | |
| | | jc100
join:2002-04-10
2 edits | Re: Immunity Norman,
Not to criticize your assessment, but let me point out one flaw....
"if only we were smart enough to vote the rascals currently in office out of office."
Sadly, many don't vote for one reason or another. Those who vote often do not know the issues. Couple this with the fact lobbyists have their hands so deep into the pockets of politicians, that companies (not the people), run this country these days. At one time, this government was for the people, by the people. Sadly, its for the corporation at the behest of the politician. Until our society starts getting off its ass to demand more of those they elect, this crap will continue. It's quite a sad time when people would rather sit back and watch us follow the path of destruction than do something about it. I for one don't expect Democrats to fix much if elected. I just hope they fix a little at this point. It's quite sad that I feel the same resolve of futility, that those who do not vote experience. Yet, I look at things like this currently. Something is better than nothing, and if change can occur slowly back in the right direction, it must count for something. Cherish gains, whether big or small as they say. If we start getting rid of corruption, and demanding those who do it leave, then maybe one day we'll be back to a government run by the people, for the people. Until then, we're stuck in the rut we call 2007 with ever so bad leadership at the helm. | |
| | | | NormanS
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
·Pacific Bell - SBC
| Re: Immunity said by jc100 :Norman, Not to criticize your assessment, but let me point out one flaw.... The flaw is not in my assessment, but in the nature of humanity. Fixing the problems we have would require voters who would actually take active interest in what is happening, and not just accept the "touchy-feely" pronouncements of pundits and politicians. We are a culture of idol worshippers who hang on every word uttered by entertainers, as if their expertise in their craft transferred over to political expertise. Barbra Streisand is an infinitely better singer, and actor, than I will ever be. But, as they said about the Robert Preston character (Professor Harold Hill, The Music Man), "She doesn't know the territory."
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum | |
| | | | | jc100
join:2002-04-10
| Re: Immunity Norman,
Very true. Instead of taking what celebrities say at face value, we need to investigate their statements. IE take it with a grain of salt until proven otherwise. Politicians are expert speakers. They know how to swing things so they come out looking good. In swinging things, you might think your question was answered, but you merely got another twist. Hence, educated people must listen closely, and follow their every word. By follow, I mean not just agree, but go back and analyze everything that was said. Only then, should one make a constructive and well informed decision on the issue. A good example. We do not let someone tell us which doctor to see or treatment to pursue. While we may get advice, we make this decision on our own after careful research. Why should the political future of this country be any different? | |
| | 
meister_sd
Premium
join:2006-01-29
La Mesa, CA
| said by jc100 :The only thing the politicians of past and these companies deserve is to be sued into oblivion and those responsible sent to jail! Sorry, even that doesn't work - remember Scooter? | |
| | | jc100
join:2002-04-10
| Re: Immunity Well see, there's a difference between what politicians see in jail and what the common man experiences. When I say send politicians to jail, I mean to maximum security penitentiaries that don't have luxuries. I'm talking down to the bone basics. To top off their stays, they should be mainstreamed into the general populous and not given their own prison cell. We shouldn't treat corrupt politicians as celebrities. If we're going to Britany Spears, Martha Stewart, or OJ these politicians, they won't ever change. If we take a hardline stance with them upon conviction, maybe they'll think twice before breaching the public trust. If not, we can always take comfort in the fact they are rotting behind bars, and not enjoying their stay. Ah yes, what a perfect world would be like if the Rich and connected got the treatment the ordinary man did. | |
| 
Anonymous_
Anonymous
Premium
join:2004-06-21
127.0.0.1
clubs: | i want Immunity too :) i want Immunity too 
--
( . Y . ) | |
| axus
join:2001-06-18
Washington, DC
·Verizon Online DSL
| I don't think so I don't think they should have immunity, some people take their privacy very seriously and these companies sold them out. There should not be two classes of citizen, every American should have an expectation of privacy. It's especially hypocritical given how the government protects its own information by calling it classified.
Just as there should be separation of Church and State, there should be separation of Corporation and State. | |
| tkdslr
join:2004-04-24
Pompano Beach, FL
·Speakeasy
| They have endangered our society. The teleco's, (SBC and Verison), have endangered the very fundamental underpinnings of our society.
Access to this information without court supervision (warrent) should have never even been considered.
Imagine some select group of people which has unfettered access to every telephone and email exchange in the US. What advantages could one gain with access to such information??
Untraceable insider stock trades, unannounced merger info, blackmail opportunities(including federal judges).
This corrupting temptation is almost beyond comprehension. | |
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See 12 replies to this post | |
bennor
join:2006-07-22
New Haven, CT
| Has congress done this before? Has there been any other laws passed by congress that gives corporation(s) blanket immunity from prosecution and lawsuits by their customers?
Giving corporations a pass like this just doesn't sound right. If this happens how much you want to bet other companies like tire manufacturers (like Goodyear), cigarette companies, and the pharmaceutical industry will be clamoring for immunity from lawsuits.
Where will this surveillance of us end? How long before we have our kids informing the government on their parents like 1930's Germany. | |
| 66466388
join:2006-11-22 | Immunity sure, go ahead give them immunity
then
they should SUE ALL OF US into bankruptcy, we'll see then who will buy their services. | |
| 
Dagda1175
join:2001-06-17
Goleta, CA | Wrong direction from blame Don't blame the companies, blame congress approving the patriot act which made this all possible. | |
| | jc100
join:2002-04-10
2 edits | Re: Wrong direction from blame Blame is something that can go all around here. I blame the Republicans that overwhelmingly supported this bill. Only one I think descented. Likewise, I blame a large majority of Democrats who went along with this foolishness. However, at least there were SEVERAL (think 62-66 or so total in Congress) that stood against this. I applaud those. To the rest, they do not deserve a re-election With that said, I also hold the companies liable for taking advantage of this situation for their own means. Either they were paid heftily or given favors. No matter which it was, they participated in this sinister act on Americans. Hence, they should not be given immunity. Their CEOS and Board members should be jailed and lawsuits levied against each and every one of them. As for the company itself, one must think about the innocent employees. Therefore, I think all action should be taken against the rightful people, instead of putting hardworking folks out of a job. If this means the owners or majority shareholders are guilty, I say strip them of their stake in the company and toss them in jail as well. | |
| wispalord
join:2007-09-20
House Springs, MO | Amsterdam, Anyone? I'm packing, I'm almost ready to believe the country's with little or no government is more free than the USA | |
|
No to ESPN
@comcast.net
| Ever Hear of Government Terrorism? Some Germans and Japanese got their necks pulled a bit about 60 years ago due to them being involved with government terrorism.
Issue is that our country does not become the same or worst than what we are supposed to be fighting. For your information our government was forcing the phone companies to install wiretapping backdoors on phone switches well before 9/11. You can draw your own conclusions. | |
|
lazy2signup
@comcast.net
 from:
ackman
| I have no problem with wiretapping hardware My problem is not the hardware, it's the complete lack of judicial supervision. A variety of laws (including one in our precious bill of rights) specifically outlaw this type of behavior. It has been found "wrong" several times, but other branches of our government are very clever and find good ways to ignore laws especially by passing laws to contradict others!
And yes, Franklin's "those willing to give up a little liberty for a little security deserve neither security nor liberty" is very deserving with this type of thing. Shame on you fear-mongers who think terrorism (stupid buzzwords) should take prevalence over ALL issues in our society and actually believe that proof that no foreign terrorism has occured since the WTC events means that we are safe anyway (please, how often did we get events of that magnitude before?).
Shame on politicians. Shame on these corporations. Shame on you. | |
| | jrouss
Premium
join:2003-01-01
West Lebanon, NH
·Packet8
| Re: I have no problem with wiretapping hardware My sentiments exactly.
"those willing to give up a little liberty for a little security deserve neither security nor liberty"
All of you who are afraid and are willing to be safe at the expense of what our fore-fathers fought and died for make me sick. BTW times have not changed, it always been like this, we have changed we want some else to make us safe and fight our battles. I would rather die as an American standing up for who we are supposed to be than depending on some disconnected and or corrupt politition to protect me.
Read the anthem tell me were is says we the citizens of the United States compromise our values for anyone or anything. Imagine if they been to afraid to stand up for their beliefs.
UNITED STATES ANTHEM
Star Spangled Banner
Oh, say can you see, by the dawn's early light,
What so proudly we hailed at the twilight's last gleaming?
Whose broad stripes and bright stars, through the perilous fight,
O'er the ramparts we watched, were so gallantly streaming?
And the rockets' red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there.
O say, does that star-spangled banner yet wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?
On the shore, dimly seen through the mists of the deep,
Where the foe's haughty host in dread silence reposes,
What is that which the breeze, o'er the towering steep,
As it fitfully blows, now conceals, now discloses?
Now it catches the gleam of the morning's first beam,
In full glory reflected now shines on the stream:
'Tis the star-spangled banner! O long may it wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.
Oh! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand
Between their loved homes and the war's desolation!
Blest with victory and peace, may the heaven-rescued land
Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation.
Then conquer we must, for our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: "In God is our trust."
And the star-spangled banner forever shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave! | |
| 
inteller
Sociopaths always win.
join:2003-12-08
Tulsa, OK | EFF needs a new logo ....it looks sooooo '90s Web 0.5 | |
| 
DrStrange
Technically feasible
Premium
join:2001-07-23
West Hartford, CT | Collaborators should have no place to hide Whether it's 1945 or 1989 or 2008-9, collaborators shouldn't have any place to hide.
Just my 2 cents. | |
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Telcos Gunning For Surveillance Suit Immunity
