 
en102
Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA
 ·RoadRunner Cable
 ·DSL EXTREME
1 edit | DNS opt out is flawed Cookies will only work with browsers or apps that are cookie based. Applications not using cookies will have issues. This is a flawed method. Opting out should have DHCP change your DNS settings to 'clean' DNS servers.
Technically speaking, shouldn't this be and 'opt-in', as its breaking apps that truly rely on DNS to function properly.
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Canada = Hollywood North | |
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rcdailey
Dragoonfly
Premium
join:2005-03-29
Rialto, CA | Re: DNS opt out is flawed I suppose you could set up your connection to use OpenDNS servers instead of defaulting to using the DNS provided by TWC. That would probably get around this DNS redirection. | |
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en102
Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA | Re: DNS opt out is flawed True, but that should be done by TWC, I shouldn't have to mess with my DNS settings to obtain valid DNS results... This isn't AOL, afterall.
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Canada = Hollywood North | |
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sporkme
drop the crantini and move it, sister
Premium,MVM
join:2000-07-01
Morristown, NJ
·Optimum Online
| Re: DNS opt out is flawed said by en102  :This isn't AOL, afterall. But the duopoly does want to turn "your" internet into a lovely AOL-esque walled garden.
Don't worry though, I'm sure that a 3rd party overbuilder will spring up out of nowhere and provide "real" internet any day now. | |
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batterup
I Can Not Tell A Lie.
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ
clubs:
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: DNS opt out is flawed said by sporkme :Don't worry though, I'm sure that a 3rd party overbuilder will spring up out of nowhere and provide "real" internet any day now. When we had one provider we did not have this B.S. The more providers the greater the B.S. to hustle a buck with a smaller customer base.
Gone are the days when the pipe provider made a country from sea to shinning sea possible. Gone are the days when the pipe provider will discover the sound of the beginning of he universe.
Ma Bell is dead and yet the people bitch. | |
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sporkme
drop the crantini and move it, sister
Premium,MVM
join:2000-07-01
Morristown, NJ
·Optimum Online
| Re: DNS opt out is flawed said by batterup :[ Gone are the days when the pipe provider made a country from sea to shinning sea possible. Gone are the days when the pipe provider will discover the sound of the beginning of he universe. Gone are the days of double-digit long distance, phone rentals, and all that other "good stuff". Sniff... | |
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batterup
I Can Not Tell A Lie.
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ
clubs:
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: DNS opt out is flawed said by sporkme :Gone are the days of double-digit long distance, phone rentals, and all that other "good stuff". Sniff... So you got what you want enjoy.
I am sure it is totally a coincidence that the US of A has fallen mightily compared to the rest of the world sense the murder of Ma. The pipe provide no longer innovates, the pipe provider now hustles and sues. Enjoy your new standard and place in the world. | |
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| | | | | fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| Gone are the days of 35 cent per minute long distance. Gone are the days of the monopolistic mentality of the phone company. Gone are the days of over priced, and low quality dial tone. Gone are the days of expensive setup fees to change a feature. Gone are the days of mandatory phone rentals. Gone are the days of 25 day installation appointments. Gone are the days of no choice. Gone are the days of "We don't care, we're the phone company, we don't have to"...
Yea... the good old days.
Every time there is a topic and you jump in, you keep posting this non-sense about how Ma-Bell was the saviour to all that is good and ever has been and that people are bitching because it's gone. In case you were asleep, the people wanted it gone and no one has looked back.
Evolve!
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"Complaining is the least path of resistance for the self-serving, the lazy, and I’m told it’s a woman’s prerogative..." | |
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batterup
I Can Not Tell A Lie.
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ
clubs:
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: DNS opt out is flawed said by fiberguy :Evolve! You are one of the unhappiest people yet you have what you want. I guess some people will be unhappy no matter what. | |
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| | | | | | | fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| Re: DNS opt out is flawed Funny, I was thinking the same thing about you... except I would have ended at "You are one of the unhappiest people.. "
I just don't understand why ou jump in every thread with the same one topic post.. who's weeping and ? who wanted bell in one piece other than you?
I sometimes wonder if you were one of those old time telephone execs from AT&T who had life set for himself and then everything pulled out from under you when the government pulled out the rug from under your cushy lifestyle.
I just don't get it..
.. and I'm very happy... Sorry.. unlike some, I'm far from sitting in the rusted out jeep in my front yard, on blocks, with my metal army hat on, a whip, bottle of whiskey in one hand, while shouting at the kids to get a haircut and get off my yard while telling them they won't make something of themselves...
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"Complaining is the least path of resistance for the self-serving, the lazy, and I’m told it’s a woman’s prerogative..." | |
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batterup
I Can Not Tell A Lie.
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ
clubs:
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: DNS opt out is flawed said by fiberguy :.. and I'm very happy... Sorry.. unlike some, I'm far from sitting in the rusted out jeep in my front yard, on blocks, with my metal army hat on, a whip, bottle of whiskey in one hand, while shouting at the kids to get a haircut and get off my yard while telling them they won't make something of themselves... You also said
quote:
There is this small group of so-called internet pioneer warriors that think they are going to gain a victory for the masses when all they are doing is messing things up for the majority.
Can I have a ride in your jeep and a swig from your jug there Bubba? | |
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NOCMan
Verizon Fios User
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Flower Mound, TX
| said by en102 :True, but that should be done by TWC, I shouldn't have to mess with my DNS settings to obtain valid DNS results... This isn't AOL, afterall. Not defending them, but anyone who this would break their applications probably tend to run their own dns servers.
Course what happens when they start redirecting traffic for valid sites on accident or due to a network problem. | |
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LiamJunket
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Ocean City, NJ
·Comcast
| Re: DNS opt out is flawed But you can opt out of it if you sign up as a free user:
Just leave the typo correction boxes unchecked and the usual server not found error pops up..
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Internet News
My BLOG
My Web Page
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JRKy
Woops
join:2002-04-13
Colorado Springs, CO | But you can customize the OpenDNS redirection to your own company logos and text. They don't redirect to advertise.
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Josh "JRKy" Kennedy
"Irish I had another drink" | |
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| | | | emptywig
Huh? What?
Premium
join:2002-08-05
Pasadena, TX | Re: DNS opt out is flawed Redirect is still redirect.
wig | |
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rcdailey
Dragoonfly
Premium
join:2005-03-29
Rialto, CA
1 edit | Re: DNS opt out is flawed It's essentially the same as if you had used a search engine to find the link, but if it's not your choice to do that, then that's not such a good thing.
The point about breaking the way DNS is supposed to work, changing it so that the standard error page doesn't display, seems valid. If local applications depend on that error page in order to work properly, then that would become a real headache if the provider simply changes things without notification or without permitting an opt out. | |
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DotMac
Shill H8r
Premium
join:2007-10-26
Huntington Beach, CA
| Doesn't matter why they do it, DNS redirection still breaks stuff and ISPs should leave their mitts off standards. Stop port blocking, stop redirects, stop pissing with everything. The fact that they're doing it to make a quick buck just makes it that much lamer.
And OpenDNS is fine...people CHOOSE to do it and that's great...that's opting in. If Verizon, Cox, Time Warner and the like want to offer the same, so be it, let them offer it but not auto-enroll everyone in it. | |
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DotMac
Shill H8r
Premium
join:2007-10-26
Huntington Beach, CA
1 edit | I wish... ICANN could somehow compel ISPs to conform to the Internet's "mechanical" standards like allowing 404's to 404 by default. If a user wishes to opt in, that's fine. | |
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JRKy
Woops
join:2002-04-13
Colorado Springs, CO
1 edit | Re: I wish... Those "mechanical" standards are the web servers doing. Nothing to do with the "internet".
You could always use IPs for your requests and avoid all of this  .
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Josh "JRKy" Kennedy
"Irish I had another drink" | |
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DotMac
Shill H8r
Premium
join:2007-10-26
Huntington Beach, CA
1 edit | Re: I wish... By mechanical standards I'm talking about following the TCP/IP convention including proper DNS resolution instead of hijacking it to make a quick buck. | |
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JRKy
Woops
join:2002-04-13
Colorado Springs, CO
| Re: I wish... I know I'm being a pita here, but again... DNS (applications) has nothing to do with TCP/IP other than traversing the protocol.
I agree the DNS redirection to an advertised page is shady nonetheless.
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Josh "JRKy" Kennedy
"Irish I had another drink" | |
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DotMac
Shill H8r
Premium
join:2007-10-26
Huntington Beach, CA
3 edits | Re: I wish... Sigh, I dunno what the proper term for it is but I'm trying to say TCP/IP as in the TCP/IP model (the whole shebang), not just TCP as a transport protocol. Obviously in TCP/IP model (or whatever it is really called) DNS is an application protocol just like POP3, NNTP and SMTP and goes directly to my point which is when they piss with TCP/IP standards (in this case an application standard) by redirecting DNS or in another common case like port blocking, they break "stuff" that others rely on being 'standard' to function properly. | |
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JRKy
Woops
join:2002-04-13
Colorado Springs, CO | Re: I wish... Weeeell...
pfft... yeah, I agree. | |
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amungus
Premium
join:2004-11-26
America
clubs:
| question Ok, so should I just go ahead and get the list of ROOT DNS servers right now?
Can an avg. home user use them or their nearest neighbors that are NOT part of this whole redirection insanity?
I really don't get it. Isn't AOL still around? If people want this, can they not still sign up for AOL? ...Wait, AOL IS TW isn't it?
Starting to think I want nothing to do with such a service after looking at that Cox forum's 1st page...
The pic that showed 'suggested' results didn't even have DSLR or anything close listed in its 'results' there...
Sure, everyone mis-types an address from time to time, but if it gives me this kind of junk before I can click the stop button, or a generic REAL error result, then I want absolutely nothing to do with it.
Seriously, this makes no sense, even for a little extra profit.. SEARCH ENGINES are very helpful if you aren't sure of a web address... That's been one of their primary functions since the beginning. | |
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| openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA
·AT&T Southeast
| Re: question said by amungus :Can an avg. home user use them or their nearest neighbors that are NOT part of this whole redirection insanity? You can use whatever DNS servers you'd like. I wouldn't use the root servers though. | |
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swhx7
Premium
join:2006-07-23
Elbonia
·RoadRunner Cable
| Re: question Agreed. Going directly to the root servers is not the way it's supposed to work.
The standard envisions that each end device (your PC) will use a local-to-it DNS server - specifically one provided by the organization the user is a part of, or the internet provider. If that server doesn't have the answer it will pass the query to a higher-level DNS server, and so on, the root servers being a last resort (but they will just try to point your query to the appropriate provider).
And if there is no IP found for the domain name, the standard says a NX reply should be returned. It is these that the ISPs are hijacking to spew some ads at users.
Until this latest fast-buck scam it was always the ISP's job to provide a standards-compliant DNS server.
Even with this nonsense going on, in most cases the ISP has offered at least one correctly-behaving DNS server for customers who want to opt out of the falsified results. If you are subject to this redirection and want to avoid it, see if there is an address for a real DNS server hidden in some corner of your provider's website. | |
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Eat Me
join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ | Re: question They'll probably start blocking external DNS servers next.
That's the next logical step, anyway.
Pretty soon all we'll be left with is port 80, 443 and a few others.  | |
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en102
Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA | Re: question Yup... and then they'll be proxied/nat'd
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Canada = Hollywood North | |
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RARPSL
join:1999-12-08
Suffern, NY
| said by swhx7 :Agreed. Going directly to the root servers is not the way it's supposed to work. The standard envisions that each end device (your PC) will use a local-to-it DNS server - specifically one provided by the organization the user is a part of, or the internet provider. If that server doesn't have the answer it will pass the query to a higher-level DNS server, and so on, the root servers being a last resort (but they will just try to point your query to the appropriate provider). This provider supplied DNS Server while the normal case is a fall-back to the case were there is a running DNS Server on the user's Computer/LAN. In that case, it is that DNS Server that does the resolution or goes to the Root Server and runs the chain to the correct Authorised DNS Server.
BTW: If you run your own DNS Server, update your ROOT-SERVERS list since one of them has changed its IPN and will in a few months go away (it has two IPNs right now and the old one will be withdrawn eventually). | |
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espaeth
Digital Plumber
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
 ·voip.ms
·Vitelity VOIP
·Callcentric
·VoiceStick
·ViaTalk
·Comcast
·Embarq
| said by amungus :Ok, so should I just go ahead and get the list of ROOT DNS servers right now? The root DNS servers will be of limited value to you, since they only serve up immediate records of ".", so: {com net org us info} and such. The root DNS servers tell you which Top Level Domain (tld) server to use to resolve the record another layer. (The gTLD servers for com and net, for example)
said by amungus :Can an avg. home user use them or their nearest neighbors that are NOT part of this whole redirection insanity? I recommend using one of the free DNS resolver options, like:
»www.opendns.com
»www.resolvingnameserver.com/freerns.html
Others suggest using DNS servers operated by Level(3) (4.x.x.x), but those are not openly approved for public use. Level(3) has talked about restricting recursive lookups to only their immediate customers, so even though they work for everyone today that might not continue to be the case if they get concerned with the traffic loads.
said by amungus :Sure, everyone mis-types an address from time to time, but if it gives me this kind of junk before I can click the stop button, or a generic REAL error result, then I want absolutely nothing to do with it. People click on advertisements, and since I've made money from ad click sources I can't complain too loudly about the practice. It's true that DNS redirection can break some functionality (mail servers and spam block list lookups, for instance), but those are generally problems that only the more savvy users run into. The more savvy broadband users should have no problems changing their resolving DNS servers to another option that meets their needs. | |
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hopeflicker
Capitalism breeds greed
Premium
join:2003-04-03
Long Beach, CA | greed Yet another anti-consumer trick.
Why is it that companies make "YOU" jump though hoops?
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People pray to God because they're told to. | |
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See 16 replies to this post |
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koitsu
Premium
join:2002-07-16
Mountain View, CA
| Boycott. Someone needs to form an organisation and start boycotting this crap. None of the jhonkas in upper management are aware of how DNS works, and how services/protocols rely on it -- thus, are completely unaware of how garbage like this causes massive havoc.
It needs to end.
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Making life hard for others since 1977.
I speak for myself and not my employer/affiliates of my employer. | |
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morbo
Complete Your Transaction
join:2002-01-22
00000
clubs: | boo to this
all these DNS redirection schemes should be made illegal. | |
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DaSneaky1D
one wall to block them all
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-29
The Lou
·Charter Pipeline
| Upon further reflection.... So far, the companies doing this are NOT Comcast. Is Comcast generating extra revenue by saving bandwidth?
From just a quick search, I can't find any mention of any bandwidth limitation with Cox...and I know the other companies implementing this are not limiting bandwidth usage. While I may be wrong, it seems that to provide the "sales" bandwidth speeds at affordable prices, they're subsidizing using these methods.
Granted, many folks here may not like it, but nearly every other customer of theirs wouldn't even blink at this change. Also, anyone that sees this as an annoyance should be well aware of how to change it.
So, is this really a problem?
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:: my trivial ramblings :: | |
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MrMoody
Liberal Capitalist
join:2002-09-03
Smithfield, NC | Re: Upon further reflection.... I am basically of the same opinion. | |
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MiloMindbend
join:2001-01-18
Jeannette, PA | Open letter to internet providers Dear ISPs looking to make a quick advertising buck,
DNS is used by (a lot) more than just web browsers.
Look it up -- and stop breaking existing standards with your bright ideas. >:-/
Sincerely,
The rest of the 'net | |
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en102
Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA
·RoadRunner Cable
·DSL EXTREME
| Re: Open letter to internet providers Yup... Web browsers are the revenue stream that they want... then they should have a cookie set on the browsers to 'opt-in' when they hit the corporate web site. All non-browser based DNS lookups would function properly.
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Canada = Hollywood North | |
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| smcallah
join:2004-08-05
Home
| Re: Don't these companies remember the SiteFinder scandal? SiteFinder was a whole other beast. It affected all Verisign run TLD's.
It was unavoidable, even if you ran your own DNS server, you still had to talk to Verisign's root for their TLD's.
In this new case, if it's only your ISP doing it, and if you know what you're doing, you can get around it.
If you don't know what you're doing, you probably don't care either way. | |
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Ikyuao
Pro. debian Linux
join:2007-02-26
Wichita, KS | OpenDNS offers this. OpenDNS can redirect you to OpenDNS search page in case you mistyped URL or do not exist page so OpenDNS automatically redirect you to OpenDNS page. | |
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jester121
join:2003-08-09
Lake Zurich, IL
·ViaTalk
| Typical much ado... Once again, for all the hullabaloo and bandwagon jumping, no one's given a detailed description of how this really affects them. We have references to "tools and utilities" that this will impact and how it will cause the ruination of everyone's life, but honestly, what are these tools? And how much time each month do you spend using them? Aren't the people complaining the same ones who claim to never use ISP-run DNS servers anyhow, and aren't they smart enough to change to different ones?
I'd really like some examples, I'm not saying such uses don't exist and aren't valid; I just have a hard time believing that this is destroying anyone's ability to enjoy their internet connection.
(And for all who are poised to write something about "pure unfettered internet" or something like that, save it; I've read it all in the Comcast Bittorrent threads.) | |
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CylonRed
Premium,MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County
·Speakeasy
| Wow - when I go one of these pages I just.... Hit the back button till I am back to where I was or rertype it correctly - not that difficult to do.\
If people would not buy or click on any link then the problem would be solved as no money would be made.
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Brian
Free health care is 100% a misnomer - it is not free and never will be free. | |
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ep1taph
join:2006-12-01
Erlanger, KY
·Insight Communicat..
| InsightBB also doing this You might want to add InsightBB to the growing list of ISP's that are taking over mistyped urls. We've been discussing it:
»www33.not-found-entry.org
I've been using Level3 DNS servers since it started happening. | |
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MrMoody
Liberal Capitalist
join:2002-09-03
Smithfield, NC | And Embarq Embarq just started it too. SOMEBODY out there has sold all these ISPs on doing this. | |
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factchecker
@cox.net
| Simple solution... Use either the following anycast nameservers:
4.2.2.1 - 4.2.2.6
or OpenDNS with redirection turned off.
Of course a better solution would be for these companies to stop breaking DNS and trying to monetize something that was NOT DESIGNED to be monetized. | |
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| smcallah
join:2004-08-05
Home
| Re: Simple solution... said by factchecker :
Of course a better solution would be for these companies to stop breaking DNS and trying to monetize something that was NOT DESIGNED to be monetized.
I don't agree with redirection of DNS, but this is a weak argument against it.
Just because it wasn't stated in RFC's that it could be "monetized" doesn't mean it can't be. You probably shouldn't store recipes in DNS records, but it can be done.
For DNS to have not been designed to do something such as this, they would not have made wildcard records possible.
Perhaps they should have had more foresight and seen something like this occurring with wildcards. But you can only partially blame the implementors for using the features of BIND, or whatever DNS server they use, to their own business ends. | |
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jjoshua
Premium
join:2001-06-01
Scotch Plains, NJ | It's like getting a recoded message when you misdial When you misdial a phone number, do you want to hear a "[boop]This number is not in service" message or do you want to be connected to directory assistance who can connect your call for an additional $1.00 ? | |
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| | amungus
Premium
join:2004-11-26
America
clubs:
| Re: It's like getting a recoded message when you misdial Now that would be comical. It would also make for a good, humorous way to make you double check yourself, or search for the right info.
I think that'd actually be a very funny thing to do. Have it just start playing a totally lo-fi audio clip of those old tones, then the specific error message.
There are much bigger concerns like spammers and scammers who cause grief for people. What kind of prioritization is that?
The internet: does not come with batteries, assembly required, no warranty... | |
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rcdailey
Dragoonfly
Premium
join:2005-03-29
Rialto, CA
| If you dial a busy number, do you want to hear an offer to automatically redial that number for a small fee? That's what the phone companies are doing now. If Internet providers did the same thing, then when a website was not available you might be given a list of alternative sites. Maybe that's the next thing that will happen. | |
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cghh
join:2001-01-15
Milpitas, CA
2 edits | Redirection tool preemption I would think that providers (like Yahoo or Google) who would like for you to install their mistyped-URL-handler in your browser would be rather upset at your ISP summarily preemting all of them. I would think that they stand to lose a LOT of $$ due to this scheme.
The place for these handlers is in browsers, not at the core Internet level.
BTW, with E-mail, it is true that SMTP servers will first do a MX lookup, but if that fails, they will then do an A lookup, which will never fail with this corrupted DNS.
And I wonder if there is a lawsuit in there somewhere due to the fraudulent assumption of authority over domains these ISPs don't own. | |
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Furrier
@iglou.com
| Re: Redirection tool preemption said by cghh :BTW, with E-mail, it is true that SMTP servers will first do a MX lookup, but if that fails, they will then do an A lookup, which will never fail with this corrupted DNS. That is the exact problem that occurred when Verisign (who runs roots for .com) tried this very same thing a couple of years ago.
It was on a much larger scale, of course, since it applied to everyone everywhere, but email problems were rampant. Instead of immediate bounces for improper domains, suddenly every email domain appeared valid and would sit on queue for days before bounces would happen. Millions of sites were affected, and eventually most large ISPs had to override the A record and put those IP addresses on their ignore lists.
There are undoubtedly thousands of other applications that depend on NXDOMAIN responses being properly returned on invalid domains.
HTTP is not the Internet, and ISPs need to remember that. | |
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antdude
A Ninja Ant
Premium,VIP
join:2001-03-25 |  Is it mandatory?
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Time Warner Cable To Employ DNS Redirection
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