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AT&T: Pair Bonded DSL 'Late 2008'
10Mbps will have to do for now...
by Karl Bode Thursday 24-Jan-2008 tags: dsl · business · bandwidth · AT&T U-Verse · AT&T Yahoo
While AT&T this week unveiled 10Mbps U-Verse VDSL, that's likely not going to be enough to do battle with cable DOCSIS 3.0 networks over the next few years. For years AT&T has been telling us that they'll be using pair bonding to offer faster speeds. Originally the company said they'd hoped to deploy the technology before the end of 2007. Telephony Online's Ed Gubbins e-mails us to note that AT&T is now saying late 2008 for the faster speeds.

“Late 2008” is the most recent language the company has adopted, spoken by CEO Randall Stephenson during the company’s quarterly earnings call today. Promising the introduction of a “whole-home” digital video recorder service this year as well as a second stream of high-definition television (HDTV), Stephenson added, “A third enhancement that will be important to us going forward–because it will enable additional HD streams where they’re required–will be pair-bonding, which we expect late in 2008."

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Providing dual HD streams is an important competitive milestone because until it's implemented, U-Verse TV simply isn't on par with many cable & satellite HD offerings. AT&T embraced FTTN & VDSL over FTTH solutions like FiOS, largely because of the cost savings. AT&T will be spending less than a third of what Verizon is spending to deploy FiOS, a move that pleases skittish and impatient investors.

AT&T says they should be able to double the bandwidth they're currently delivering (30-60Mbps or more depending on CO distance) to many homes with pair bonding. Telephony Online has a second report that claims pair bonding in some instances could only boost bandwidth speeds by 25% to 30%. They also note that in many neighborhoods, there won't be enough copper to offer two pair to every home. That might be good news for BellSouth users, who so far have felt a little neglected:

It's unknown what fraction of homes in AT&T's FTTN footprint have the requisite second pair. In particular, the Pacific Bell and Southwestern Bell regions are “very tight on extra pairs,” posing a “potential problem,” said Teresa Mastrangelo, broadbandtrends.com principal analyst. Instead, AT&T might do more VDSL2 bonding in BellSouth territory, where copper is more abundant. BellSouth, which started deploying three pairs to every newly built home in the 1990s, already has deployed bonded G.shdsl for mid-band Ethernet services and has shown an interest in bonded VDSL2, Mastrangelo said.

To offer bonded VDSL, AT&T needs to assign two DSLAM ports to each customer, and deploy a special residential gateway outside the house that can terminate two pairs. Qwest is also testing VDSL pair bonding, and hopes to offer 35-38Mbps, maybe. Our guess is that Verizon will only look smarter and smarter as other companies, who wouldn't or couldn't shell out the cash, continue to struggle with the technical limitations of milking copper.

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gatorkram
KaBOOM Baby
Premium
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Winterville, NC
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Moooo

Quick, grab that bucket, and help me milk some more money out of this here copper...


--
Give me bandwidth or give me death!
»/testhistory/661871/4f240

PolarBear03
The bear formerly known as aaron8301
Premium
join:2005-01-03

Re: Moooo

Better get some bag balm for those teats, they're gonna get sore!

Cjaiceman
Premium,MVM
join:2004-10-12
Parker, CO
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Comcast Workplace

Re: Moooo

10Mbps? I can't even get that on Comcast, nevermind Qwest, they give a max of 7. I would not mind 10Mbps, but then on the other hand its from AT&T..... their anti-p2p scares me and I would not want that much filtration on my internet. At&t doesn't need to be my babysitter online.
--
HOT JAMZ 94FM
Listen Live at »sc7.shoutcaststreaming.us:8206/listen.pls

Uncle Paul

join:2003-02-04
USA
kudos:1

Re: Moooo

said by Cjaiceman:

10Mbps? I can't even get that on Comcast, nevermind Qwest, they give a max of 7. I would not mind 10Mbps, but then on the other hand its from AT&T..... their anti-p2p scares me and I would not want that much filtration on my internet. At&t doesn't need to be my babysitter online.
Funny, best ATT will give me is 3 down 384 up....

Of course it's not 'dual' HD feeds it should be MULTIPLE HD FEEDS. The minimum it should be able to handle is 3. Record two to DVR while watching a third.

en102
Canadian, eh?

join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA

Re: Moooo

Yup..
AT&T will offer me 1.5/384kbps
DSL-Extreme currently has me at 3008/512kbps @ ~12,000' (on AT&T's lines)

AT&T rewired part of my neighborhood, after Edison burnt the lines, and ran 6 pair between the curb (50 pair?) and my house.
--
Canada = Hollywood North
xsiddalx

join:2005-03-11
Chicago, IL

Re: Moooo

said by en102:

Yup..
AT&T will offer me 1.5/384kbps
DSL-Extreme currently has me at 3008/512kbps @ ~12,000' (on AT&T's lines)

AT&T rewired part of my neighborhood, after Edison burnt the lines, and ran 6 pair between the curb (50 pair?) and my house.
Yeah, the internet part is gonna stay low so they can satisfy their video distribution (I hear). Most people get along fine on 1.5 but the upload is the issue for things like photo processing uploads and torrents.
touchtone561

join:2007-12-10
Lake Worth, FL
Thank G_d for the little competition Cable and Telco try to provide or we would still be at ISDN speeds.

My Cable service ISP didn't show up until one week after the BellSouth DSL service came ( after two years of petitions) go figure.

PolarBear03
The bear formerly known as aaron8301
Premium
join:2005-01-03
Well I don't know why you replied to my post, but anyway...

This isn't necessarily about what speeds the providers are WILLING to give you, so your argument about only being able to get 7 from Comcast is irrelevant. This is about the speeds that the mediums are CAPABLE of providing.

With DOCSIS 3.0, Comcast will be ABLE to provide 100mbps service. So in 4 years when you're watching 1080i videos on Youtube.com and downloading 40-50GB Blu-ray movies from Netflix while TIVO-ing two HD shows at the same time, it will work so smoothly on your 50/10 Comcast connection that you will still be able to browse dslreports.com without any difficulty, while it will be impossible on a 10/1 AT&T connection.

Pretty much the entire argument against U-verse is that coax and fiber are still far from their bandwidth limits, and can grow as needed for years to come. Twisted pair is pretty much AT it's limit, and although it will work fine for now, pretty soon it will be severely overloaded.
--
There comes a point in your life when you get tired of fixing everything and wiping everyone's ass. But it’s not giving up. It’s realizing that you don’t need certain people and the bullshit and drama they bring to your life.
Joe12345678

join:2003-07-22
Des Plaines, IL

Re: Moooo

but that 100mbps link is shared with other users in a hub like link to the headend also the cable tv boxes use the same link for there guide data, menus, firmware.

U-verse has a switch like link back to the DSLAM that has a big pipe back to the CO / backbone.
bugabuga

join:2004-06-10
Austin, TX

Re: Moooo

Well duh, and those DSLAMs will share whatever trunk ATT has to that office, so you have same problem moved up one step.
calvinneal

join:2003-09-01
Royal Oak, MI

Re: Moooo

All internet traffic on Uverse is on Sonet networks. There is no traffic on trunks which are copper facilities for office to office switched traffic. Trunks are dso level circuts and are typically switched circuts. Completely different technology. ATT is offering 10 mb download speeds in our area and uverse voice. The backbone buildup is the biggest push I have seen at ATT. I know this company, they will throw whatever resources at it until they are market dominant.
xsiddalx

join:2005-03-11
Chicago, IL
said by Joe12345678:

but that 100mbps link is shared with other users in a hub like link to the headend also the cable tv boxes use the same link for there guide data, menus, firmware.

U-verse has a switch like link back to the DSLAM that has a big pipe back to the CO / backbone.
U-Verse has the same topography as cable, or it is better said, similar.

U-Verse menus for video suffer from the same latency as satellite I hear (though I wouldn't give up my sat menus for cable). The field terminals with the DSL cards share bandwidth back to the CO. The CO may play a role or not.
The data network is eating the telephone network...it is more important how close to the terminal you are for ip services.

Short of fiber to the home, the telephone distribution system is looking a lot like the cable system.

It's all shared. The question becomes, how far out from the customer premises does the sharing occur?

macken 645

@sbcglobal.net

Re: Moooo

>U-Verse has the same topography as cable, or it is better said, similar

Cards?, no cards each customer has an IP address and a dedicated line from remote terminal to home gateway. from remote terminal to CO it's a 1 gigabit line for the shared content

BF69
Premium
join:2004-07-28
Camden, TN
said by PolarBear03:

Well I don't know why you replied to my post, but anyway...

This isn't necessarily about what speeds the providers are WILLING to give you, so your argument about only being able to get 7 from Comcast is irrelevant. This is about the speeds that the mediums are CAPABLE of providing.

With DOCSIS 3.0, Comcast will be ABLE to provide 100mbps service. So in 4 years when you're watching 1080i videos on Youtube.com and downloading 40-50GB Blu-ray movies from Netflix while TIVO-ing two HD shows at the same time, it will work so smoothly on your 50/10 Comcast connection that you will still be able to browse dslreports.com without any difficulty, while it will be impossible on a 10/1 AT&T connection.
You're not going to be downloading blu-ray movies from netflix. blu-ray movies are called that because the discs are read by a blue laser. Since when is a downloaded movie read by a laser?

Also Netflix isn't going to offer 40GB movies when most of the country still won't even have 10 mbps speed. Youtube 1080i? please. They won't even support 1.5 mbps bit rates now and most people that have internet have that.

PolarBear03
The bear formerly known as aaron8301
Premium
join:2005-01-03

Re: Moooo

said by BF69:

You're not going to be downloading blu-ray movies from netflix. blu-ray movies are called that because the discs are read by a blue laser. Since when is a downloaded movie read by a laser?
I was referring to the CONTENT on the disc; just as we can download a "cd" and burn it to a blank cd, or download a "DVD" and burn it to a blank DVD. I figured a logical thinker would have been able to figure that out.
said by BF69:

Also Netflix isn't going to offer 40GB movies when most of the country still won't even have 10 mbps speed. Youtube 1080i? please. They won't even support 1.5 mbps bit rates now and most people that have internet have that.
The statements I made regarding netflix and youtube were PREDICTIONS based on the fact that the technology is available to do those things, they just haven't happened yet. And why wouldn't most of the country not have at least 10mbps speeds? In the last four years, the highest speed offered by Comcast nearest me has gone from 3mbps to 8mbps, so it seems logical to me that in another 4 years they very well could offer at least 20mbps, if not more, especially with the adoption of DOCSIS 3.
--
There comes a point in your life when you get tired of fixing everything and wiping everyone's ass. But it’s not giving up. It’s realizing that you don’t need certain people and the bullshit and drama they bring to your life.

DaMaGeINC
The Lan Man
Premium
join:2002-06-08
Greenville, SC
kudos:2
Dude, go look up the word "hypathical". If you can not see that he was being hypathical. Then go back to school or something. Just go away.
skrupowies

join:2002-08-22
Bristol, CT

Re: Moooo

said by DaMaGeINC:

Dude, go look up the word "hypathical". If you can not see that he was being hypathical. Then go back to school or something. Just go away.
Dude, speaking of going back to school, I think you might want to try that. I don't think you'll ba able to find "hypathical" in your dictionary. You might want to try looking up "hypothetical". I think you'll have much better luck.

RubberMan

@cox.net

Re: Moooo

LOL, I couldn't have said it ANY better!

DaMaGeINC
The Lan Man
Premium
join:2002-06-08
Greenville, SC
kudos:2

Re: Moooo

Har Har Har, Mr. Spelling B
bb45

join:2008-01-27
Dude - look in dictionary - it is hypothetical, not hypathical.

DaMaGeINC
The Lan Man
Premium
join:2002-06-08
Greenville, SC
kudos:2

Re: Moooo

Obviously we all got the meaning of the word so drop it!
attengineer

join:2007-09-26
Westland, MI
Man...dont start these crazy rumors. ATT DOES NOT FILTER ANYTHING! EVER!

That is comcast.

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
Reviews:
·AT&T DSL Service

1 edit

Re: Moooo

said by attengineer:

Man...dont start these crazy rumors. ATT DOES NOT FILTER ANYTHING! EVER!
Uh, AT&T Has announced their plans to employ filters.

Not rumor. Fact.

PolarBear03
The bear formerly known as aaron8301
Premium
join:2005-01-03

Re: Moooo

said by KrK:

Uh, AT&T Has announced their plans to employee filters.

Not rumor. Fact.
Well, then us non-employees should have nothing to worry about then

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK

Re: Moooo

Sorry, was tired.

Fixed
patcat88

join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
kudos:1
HMMMM, their AUS allows capping. Hmmmm.

quote:
*

Network Usage

Where an AT&T Service account, service or feature description specifies limits on bandwidth, disk utilization, simultaneous connections, and/or aggregate data download or upload, use in excess of those limits is not permitted without an appropriate change in account type or status and may incur additional charges for such usage.

Bandwidth, disk utilization, simultaneous connections, and aggregate data downloads/uploads will be computed or determined by AT&T from time to time in developing its product and service offerings. In the event AT&T determines that an account is exceeding the relevant bandwidth, disk utilization, aggregate data download/upload limits, simultaneous connections, or reasonable session times, the account owner will generally be notified by E-mail. If the excess use continues after such notification, the owner may be requested to upgrade the type of account or to modify the activity creating the excess use, or the account may be terminated.

If excessive bandwidth, disk space utilization, simultaneous connections, aggregate data download or upload, or session length is determined to adversely affect AT&T's ability to provide service, immediate action may be taken. The account owner may be notified by e-mail as soon as practical thereafter.

RadioDoc
58ef2c0
Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-05-11
said by attengineer:

Man...dont start these crazy rumors. ATT DOES NOT FILTER ANYTHING! EVER!

That is comcast.
ATT filters at least three port, not the least of which is 25. Are you sure you actually work there?
--
Toolmaster of La Grange.

gaforces
United We Stand, Divided We Fall

join:2002-04-07
Santa Cruz, CA
35-38mb copper would be a good backup for fiber. Since it's already there ...

PolarBear03
The bear formerly known as aaron8301
Premium
join:2005-01-03

Not yet, but, but,but

"Well, we don't have the speeds we need yet, but we will... eventually... we don't know when, we don't know where, we don't know how, but we will..."

I will LMAO in a couple of years when they are the slowest major ISP/TVSP in the nation, and all of their customers leave for providers with faster internet speeds and more HD channels.
--
There comes a point in your life when you get tired of fixing everything and wiping everyone's ass. But it’s not giving up. It’s realizing that you don’t need certain people and the bullshit and drama they bring to your life.

kilometers3

join:2007-01-24
Sacramento, CA

1 edit

Here we go again.

In before everyone from the last at&t topic comes in and complains again about AT&T not going 100% FTTH.

I can wait just fine for the pair bonding. When the 10/1.5 comes out next month it'll fit my needs until then.

BabyBear
Keep wise ...with Nite-Owl

join:2007-01-11

At least baby speed steps?

How about dropping PPPoE? Or at least making sync high enough to give us what is now impossible, that is reach our "up to" speed.

ramsfansam

join:2002-08-27
Springfield, MO

Doesn't mean a thing

But this doesn't mean squat for us regular DSL only users.
patcat88

join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
kudos:1

Re: Doesn't mean a thing

Yep, ATT created Homezone just for you, since it knows it decided certain people that have DSL (a sign your not too far out into the bush), will never get Uverse, or atleast for many many years, so ATT must offer another product to these people to profit off them.

DSL12steps

join:2001-12-24

AT$T haters

How many of you haters actually know what to do with more than 10meg? Seriously, how much porn and stolen MP3s do you guys need? I think you guys won't be happy until you can actually order a gallon of milk and have it delivered thru the DSL connection.

FTTP? who pays for it? How much do you want your bills to increase to support replacing all the copper out here? I touch the stuff (copper) every day and I can attest to the difficulty Verizon is having swapping it all out.

Granted fiber will eventually come, it's inevitable I'm sure. But right now, it's too cost prohibitive.

See 6 replies to this post

djrobx

join:2000-05-31
Valencia, CA
Reviews:
·RoadRunner Cable
·AT&T U-Verse
·VOIPo
·PHONE POWER

Oh terrific.

We've been saying from the get-go that 25mbps was inadequate bandwidth for all the things AT&T is trying to do with U-verse. We've been told not to worry because "pair bonding" and "compression technology" would allow the product to grow. Of course, unsurprisingly, they've found compression has its limits. Now they're saying there might not be enough pairs for pair bonding?

Yikes. The more I hear about U-verse, the more I think they honestly don't understand the market they're getting into.

That said, they should only need to pair bond at homes that are further from the VRAD. Hopefully that, combined with the fact that some people are ditching landlines altogether or are taking up cable's triple play offers might free up some pairs to keep bonding a workable option.
--
Laser eye surgery rocks! I love frickin' laser beams.
Austinloop

join:2001-08-19
Austin, TX
kudos:1

Where's comcastic rick???

?????

OSUGoose

join:2007-12-27
Columbus, OH

Re: Where's comcastic rick???

Que Comcast Savior Rick in 3............2...........1...........

MarkyD
Premium
join:2002-08-20
Oklahoma City, OK

Give me...

I have AT&T's FTTP at my home. AT&T, give me 30/5 for a decent price and I'll never, ever look at cable EVER again
--
MCSE, ACSA, and a lot more
Cyber2lz

join:2001-11-15
Odessa, FL

The title of the article says it all

AT&T: Pair Bonded DSL 'Late 2008'

No thank you, I'll stick with my three year old Fios
--
The Light Pipe is the Right Pipe !!!

OSUGoose

join:2007-12-27
Columbus, OH

Re: The title of the article says it all

why do morons not even in at&t territory have to spout off this nonsence, if you have fios, then why do you care, that means ur served by verizon not at&t.
Freezone

join:2000-09-29
Southfield, MI

Re: The title of the article says it all

Becuase the are laughing at guys like me with u-verse. Believe me when i move it will be in fios area and i do not even care if it is a slum. I will just have to sleep with a shit gun. For me broadband is a quality of life issue.

OSUGoose

join:2007-12-27
Columbus, OH

Re: The title of the article says it all

im certan that at&t isent this stupid, to go with this now when they know fttp is the future, perhaps they are seeing that get the quad play now, and with that revenue/demand, start to deploy fiber where they can at their pace, im shure the 52b boxes can get converted for fiber uses.

Good Luck

Neither AT&T or Verizon bothers to maintain their copper pairs. We ran into big trouble during the "second line" runup in the dialup age, as they went off into their cable-tv and fiber-optic fantasies, and dropped all copper support.

Today is no different. Every time it rains, the "good" pairs break. There aren't any replacements available. The linesmen spend hours and hours "fixing" the line, only to have to come back again the following week.

Now they're gonna run two working pairs to every house?
Sure....

The FCC already signed off on a guaranteed monopoly via fiber. I'm still shocked they didn't go for it. They can't seriously think that Comcast et al actually "competes" with them.
decifal

join:2007-03-10
Bon Aqua, TN
kudos:1

Re: Good Luck

!! Woot yet another advancement for the already served!!
EngineerDave

join:2001-08-27
Hattiesburg, MS
said by Cliff Robertson :

Neither AT&T or Verizon bothers to maintain their copper pairs. We ran into big trouble during the "second line" runup in the dialup age, as they went off into their cable-tv and fiber-optic fantasies, and dropped all copper support.

Today is no different. Every time it rains, the "good" pairs break. There aren't any replacements available. The linesmen spend hours and hours "fixing" the line, only to have to come back again the following week.
You honestly think AT&T and Verizon do absolutely no maintenance on any of their plant? You are making a blanket statement that is totally wrong. Go outside and get some fresh air. It's time for you to unplug for a while.

Re: Good Luck

said by EngineerDave:

said by Cliff Robertson :

...Neither AT&T or Verizon bothers to maintain their copper pairs...
You honestly think AT&T and Verizon do absolutely no maintenance on any of their plant? You are making a blanket statement that is totally wrong. Go outside and get some fresh air. It's time for you to unplug for a while.
Just over three years ago, we had telco attempt to repair a phone line.
("Dial tone", a quaint concept, you may have heard of it?)

It was a scene straight out of Humpty Dumpty.
23 separate visits. Big bucket trucks, fancy equipment, "chronic" teams, supervisors. Guys with hard hats. Guys with clipboards. Guys in vaults. You know, the whole Verizon-Wireless "Can You Hear Me Now" style "network" team, minus the heavy-lift helicopter.

Plenty of abuse.
Escalations.
You name it.

They NEVER fixed it. The corporate office was of no use, neither was the public utilities commission. We had plenty of apologies from the poor linesmen, but it came down one thing: failure to maintain the copper plant, which was the result of Pacific Bell's earlier foray into cable TV, whereby they completely neglected the copper, and let most of their senior people go.

After 80 days without phone service, we threw in the towel, and MOVED. That was not an easy sell to the in-laws.

To this day, we still experience, in both Verizon and Bell territories, chronic outages related to failed copper, and repairs take multiple days, as the technicians struggle to find/make a workable pair.

So yes, I stand by my "blanket statement", as you put it.
I wouldn't go so far as to say they deliberately sabotage their lines, but the neglect is and has been blatant for a decade.

Your experience may be dramatically different. Your LEC might actually [have to] invest in its wire plant. Ours here in California don't.

Verizon is now motivated by the FIOS monopoly, which might prove to be a spectacular improvement in service and reliability. If they can deliver, and they can refrain from gouging, I will be the first to raise my glass and praise them.

AT&T is another matter. So far, they haven't shown any interest in restoring their good name. With Whitacre gone, maybe things will change. I would like nothing better than to return here in a year and celebrate "no service calls", and brag about our bonded DSL performance.

Experience, however, suggests that I'll probably just have more tales of waiting in the rain for the AT&T truck.

fatmanskinny
Premium
join:2004-01-04
Wandering

What's the possibility of Verizon buying out AT&T?

I hope high but then, Ma Bell would be back together. Man, I guess we can't have our cake and eat it, too.
--
The only place where Success comes before Work is in the dictionary.

Corona
It's cool, I'm takin it back
Premium
join:2000-03-14
Dallas, TX

YAY!

YAY!

Can't come soon enough. I'm 172' too far.

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