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House Democrats Fight Telecom Wiretap Immunity
Propose new bill that gives telcos and privacy advocates their day in court

Instead of approving an existing bill that would give the phone companies retroactive immunity for their wholesale delivery of user data to Uncle Sam sans judicial oversight, House Democrats yesterday unveiled their own wiretapping bill (pdf copy).

Under the proposed legislation, phone carriers would not get immunity, though they'd be able to make their case in a closed-door proceeding without the presence of the plaintiffs in order to protect national security. The EFF, whose whistle-blower case against AT&T would obviously be derailed by immunity, praised the decision:

quote:
We applaud the House leadership for taking a courageous stand against the president and refusing to grant amnesty to lawbreaking telecoms. The House bill would represent a true compromise on the amnesty issue: customers whose privacy was violated would get their day in court, while the companies would be allowed to defend themselves despite the Administration's broad demands for secrecy," said EFF Senior Staff Attorney Kevin Bankston. "Immunity proponents have been claiming on the Hill for months that these companies had a good faith belief that the NSA program was legal. Under this bill, the companies could do what they should have been able to do all along: tell that story to a judge."
Conservatives warned that the bill would be "dead on arrival." They insist that if the phone companies don't have legal immunity, they won't risk cooperating with the intelligence community, hampering information gathering efforts. The House will vote on the bill tomorrow.

As previously noted, the President says he'll veto any bill without immunity for AT&T, Sprint & Verizon. The fight over immunity continues just as new evidence emerges showing Verizon Wireless may be giving unfettered network access to the FBI.
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
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Mount Airy, MD

pnh102

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This Wouldn't Bother Me So Much ...

... except for the fact that I work in an area that would probably be in the fallout zone of a terrorist attack.

Noah Vail
Oh God please no.
Premium Member
join:2004-12-10
SouthAmerica

Noah Vail

Premium Member

I used to see it that way...

said by pnh102:

... except for the fact that I work in an area that would probably be in the fallout zone of a terrorist attack.
That was while we were arguing over a warrant for one call at a time.

Today, we are cloning all the internet traffic running through peer pipes, and handing the FBI unrestricted access to all Verizon traffic.

This is a pretty good definition of the government spying on all of us. I have moved from support of my government to defending myself from my government.

NV

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium Member
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

1 recommendation

pnh102

Premium Member

Re: I used to see it that way...

said by Noah Vail:

I have moved from support of my government to defending myself from my government.
I think too many people in the USA have no idea what it like to live under a tyrannical, repressive government. I still stand by my view that no one's rights have been violated on a scale major enough to make the claim that we have no rights.

It isn't like the government is rounding up all the people in this country who disagree with the government and making them disappear. The government isn't shutting down websites or newspapers critical of it. The government isn't doing anything infringing more than it has in recent years. I don't see any systemic, prolonged violation of our rights under this administration compared to previous administrations.

I do think though that the Democrat party, in its neverending quest to secure our defeat, is doing everything it can to embolden our enemies. By putting a stop to the government's ability to wiretap, it enables people who would want to do us harm to use another means of communication to do so.

en102
Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA

en102

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Re: I used to see it that way...

What other country have you lived in to experience this ?

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
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join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

pnh102

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Re: I used to see it that way...

said by en102:

What other country have you lived in to experience this ?
I don't have to live anywhere else to know.

I do however, read about the daily lives of people living in places like the old Soviet bloc, North Korea, China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Zimbabwe, Venezuela, and Cuba to know that in the USA, we have it very good.

You don't have to pee on an electric fence to know that it is generally a bad idea.

en102
Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA

en102

Member

Re: I used to see it that way...

Most G8 countries have it pretty good.
And not to sidetrack, but if the U.S. could cut its oil consumption to it being an export commodity, it would be even better.
SilentMan
join:2002-07-15
New York, NY

SilentMan to pnh102

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to pnh102
said by pnh102:

said by en102:

What other country have you lived in to experience this ?
I don't have to live anywhere else to know.

I do however, read about the daily lives of people living in places like the old Soviet bloc, North Korea, China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Zimbabwe, Venezuela, and Cuba to know that in the USA, we have it very good.

You don't have to pee on an electric fence to know that it is generally a bad idea.
Venezuela? You have been watching too much Faux News.

Oh! Millions of energy saving light bulbs have been installed in Venezuelan homes and every single one of them contains a microphone so that the Government can listen in to what people say in their houses. /sarcasm

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
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join:2002-05-02
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pnh102

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Re: I used to see it that way...

said by SilentMan:

Venezuela? You have been watching too much Faux News.
And if you watched any news at all you might not sound like such an idiot when you say that. Perhaps you should try googling for criticisms of Hugo Chavez's human rights record before you spew more verbal diarrhea.

Oh, and I'm adding Bolivia to that list. The fact that 4 eastern states of that country want to secede from the rest of Bolivia is also telling.
ackman
join:2000-10-04
Atlanta, GA

ackman

Member

Re: I used to see it that way...

said by pnh102:

said by SilentMan:

Venezuela? You have been watching too much Faux News.
And if you watched any news at all you might not sound like such an idiot when you say that. Perhaps you should try googling for criticisms of Hugo Chavez's human rights record before you spew more verbal diarrhea.

Oh, and I'm adding Bolivia to that list. The fact that 4 eastern states of that country want to secede from the rest of Bolivia is also telling.
Any you're feeling pretty confident in the United States' record on human rights? When did we let women start to vote? How about how we treat people of color? Slavery really wasn't that long ago. More recently, we unilaterally invaded another sovereign country and killed their leader, violating international law. How many hundreds of thousands of people of Iraqis did we kill in that one? Estimates are as high as 1 million and as low as 300,000. I don't think those were all Bush's "terrorists". Oh, and Chavez? Yep, he was giving low cost heating oil to the poor in our country. You might say he was doing it to shove a stick in devil Bush's eye. But the difference between Chavez and Bush is at least Chavez was helping people in the US. Did you know the US has more people in prison than any other country in the world? Let's not even talk about the alleged "terrorists" we have kept in prison without any right to a trial. How about the ones we rendered and tortured, then let go when we found out they were innocent. Yep, we're just a pillar of human rights.

I'm proud to be an American, I'm ashamed and embarrassed of our government.

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
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join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

pnh102

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Re: I used to see it that way...

said by ackman:

Any you're feeling pretty confident in the United States' record on human rights? When did we let women start to vote? How about how we treat people of color?
Absolutely. I would never say we are a perfect country, but we do better for people here than just about every other country. Anyone who feels different is free to leave, which unlike the countries I listed, we make very easy to do.
said by ackman:

I'm proud to be an American, I'm ashamed and embarrassed of our government.
Sure you are. If you are that proud, you would go read up on the facts surrounding the Iraq War as well as Hugo Chavez before you take the Simon Cowell approach to sticking up for "your" country.
SilentMan
join:2002-07-15
New York, NY

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to pnh102
said by pnh102:

said by SilentMan:

Venezuela? You have been watching too much Faux News.
And if you watched any news at all you might not sound like such an idiot when you say that. Perhaps you should try googling for criticisms of Hugo Chavez's human rights record before you spew more verbal diarrhea.

Oh, and I'm adding Bolivia to that list. The fact that 4 eastern states of that country want to secede from the rest of Bolivia is also telling.
Watching such news is what makes you write comments so stupid. Unlike you who only watch Faux News or google criticism of Chavez made by ignorants, I go to Venezuela quite often and get involved with the education missions that the Government has instituted there which gives me an opportunity to travel throughout the country teaching people how to read and write; that gives me first hand experience of the Revolutionary process being conducted there. You, on the other hand, know nothing about Chavez or Venezuela or Bolivia (probably can't even find them on a map) except what the ignorants in the corporate press tell you, so you should get educated first before making such illiterate and ridiculous comments about those countries.

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
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join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

pnh102

Premium Member

Re: I used to see it that way...

said by SilentMan:

Watching such news is what makes you write comments so stupid. ...

I go to Venezuela quite often ...
Again, you clearly have no idea what you are talking about regarding Hugo Chavez. I can go to Cuba too and see for myself all the wonderful things that Fidel Castro would want an ignorant westerner to see, and then leave the place thinking that he's God's gift to humanity.

Of course, I know better than that. And until you learn more about Hugo Chavez, then there is no point in you attempting to "school" me with regards to what a nice man he might actually be.
Red Dawn
join:2004-12-13
Dallas, TX

Red Dawn to pnh102

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I think it's sad when people such as yourself go to "extremes" to try to equate this to what North Korea, Iran, or other countries do. It is not the same. I will say this though, you DO NOT know what information the government has on you, nor how it affects your life. Nor do you know who has access to that information, who you call, what sites you visit, who all of your family, friends are, what you like to eat, etc, etc. All of this in the wrong hands, could hurt you in some way. As to our government not rounding up people with no due process, uh, have you heard of "Rendition", this is very real and the CIA does it every day. If they even think for a sec you got something they want, they take you and whisk you away to some foreign land to "extract" whatever information they can. This isn't hollywood, this is real, being done to american citizens and those aboard with NO oversight. There are many government programs being run by the NSA, again with little to no oversight, to get as much information, no matter how small, on every single person living in this country. So even if you don't have a red flag, they want everything on you, no matter what it is, why? Power corrupts my friend, you should know that, look how our government run's itself. With no oversight, you do not know what could, or will happen with all of this information nor how many people could be hurt through the process. Don't we learn from mistakes? Everyday innocent people are thrown to prison for crimes they did not do. Yes back in the day it was a joke to say they were all guilty, but now days, all of us know a good number of people behind bars shouldn't be there, never did anything. That line will also be broken if we continue to allow agencies full reign over anything they want. Not a matter of if, but when.

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
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join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

pnh102

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Re: I used to see it that way...

Yawn.

There's this key, it's called "Enter." Use it.

As for your post, it is perfectly valid to illustrate how repressive regimes operate and then compare them to what is going on in the USA to conclude that we still have our rights.

When people like you begin to disappear or are otherwise censored on a mass scale, then I will agree that we have have a serious problem.

CableConvert
Premium Member
join:2003-12-05
Atlanta, GA

CableConvert to pnh102

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to pnh102
said by pnh102:

said by Noah Vail:

I have moved from support of my government to defending myself from my government.
I think too many people in the USA have no idea what it like to live under a tyrannical, repressive government. I still stand by my view that no one's rights have been violated on a scale major enough to make the claim that we have no rights.

It isn't like the government is rounding up all the people in this country who disagree with the government and making them disappear. The government isn't shutting down websites or newspapers critical of it. The government isn't doing anything infringing more than it has in recent years. I don't see any systemic, prolonged violation of our rights under this administration compared to previous administrations.

I do think though that the Democrat party, in its neverending quest to secure our defeat, is doing everything it can to embolden our enemies. By putting a stop to the government's ability to wiretap, it enables people who would want to do us harm to use another means of communication to do so.
Yet
KevinYeaux
join:2007-04-07
Hammond, LA

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to pnh102
1st: No one is saying US citizens have 'no rights'. And we are lucky and fortunate to live an a mostly free country. Here's the thing: In America, there should be NO way th government should be able to take away any rights, especially those written into the Bill of Rights!

By the way, I've been seeing 'scare-mongering' ads on TV like "THe Senate approved the bill to hear what terrorists are planning. Why hasn't the House? Call your representative and tell them to pass the "Terrorist Surveillances Act". I wanted to call my Rep. and thank him for not approving the spy program, but of course he's retired and we're in the middle of an election for a new one.
amigo_boy
join:2005-07-22

amigo_boy

Member

Re: I used to see it that way...

said by KevinYeaux:

th government should be able to take away any rights, especially those written into the Bill of Rights!
The right under discussion is privacy which doesn't exist in the Constitution. It wasn't recognized until 1964 as part of a case involving a woman's right to access birth control, and it was based upon a relatively new concept of imposing the Bill of Rights against state infringement which began around 1924.

The protection against search and seizure only says "unreasonable" searches and seizures. Obviously some are reasonable.

I'm not arguing against privacy or better protections against searches. Just that it's not as simple as some people wish it were.

Mark

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
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join:2002-05-02
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to KevinYeaux
said by KevinYeaux:

By the way, I've been seeing 'scare-mongering' ads on TV like "THe Senate approved the bill to hear what terrorists are planning.
What is wrong with the ad? What it says is completely true.
jc10098
join:2002-04-10

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Damn.. there was this site.. hummm that the government shut down in violation of first amendment rights.. Let's see.. Wikileaks... O ya, guess they are targeting people.

Or how about that group... let's see... Peace Fresno, where the government sent a cop to spy on Teachers and Professionals who spoke up against the government. I guess that doesn't constitute targeting everyone?

Ah ya, it must be nice living in your delusional world. Does it come with blanket bliss and ignorance?

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
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join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

pnh102

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Re: I used to see it that way...

said by jc10098:

Damn.. there was this site.. hummm that the government shut down in violation of first amendment rights.. Let's see.. Wikileaks... O ya, guess they are targeting people.
Ahh yes... and if you actually bothered to read up on the case, it was not the Bush administration that did this, but an idiot judge in California. The ruling was also reversed and the site is back up.
jc10098
join:2002-04-10

jc10098

Member

Re: I used to see it that way...

But peace Fresno WAS the Bush administration... =)

Tzale
Proud Libertarian Conservative
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join:2004-01-06
NYC Metro

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to Noah Vail
said by Noah Vail:
said by pnh102:

... except for the fact that I work in an area that would probably be in the fallout zone of a terrorist attack.
That was while we were arguing over a warrant for one call at a time.

Today, we are cloning all the internet traffic running through peer pipes, and handing the FBI unrestricted access to all Verizon traffic.

This is a pretty good definition of the government spying on all of us. I have moved from support of my government to defending myself from my government.

NV
A good citizen doesn't "support" the Government. A good citizen CRITICIZES the Government... Thomas Jefferson and our founding fathers said it themselves... The Government should fear YOU, you should NOT fear the Government.

-Tzale

mech1164
I'll Be Back
join:2001-11-19
Lodi, NJ

mech1164

Member

Re: I used to see it that way...

said by Tzale:

said by Noah Vail:
said by pnh102:

... except for the fact that I work in an area that would probably be in the fallout zone of a terrorist attack.
That was while we were arguing over a warrant for one call at a time.

Today, we are cloning all the internet traffic running through peer pipes, and handing the FBI unrestricted access to all Verizon traffic.

This is a pretty good definition of the government spying on all of us. I have moved from support of my government to defending myself from my government.

NV
A good citizen doesn't "support" the Government. A good citizen CRITICIZES the Government... Thomas Jefferson and our founding fathers said it themselves... The Government should fear YOU, you should NOT fear the Government.

-Tzale
Quite true, but what is the first responsibility of government? To protect its people from threats. Be that external or internal. By what the Dems in the House are doing we can't do neither. BTW for all those people that cry out Privacy, PSST they don't care. You are not that sanctimoniously worth it to them.

Tzale
Proud Libertarian Conservative
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join:2004-01-06
NYC Metro

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Tzale

Premium Member

Re: I used to see it that way...

said by mech1164:

Quite true, but what is the first responsibility of government? To protect its people from threats. Be that external or internal. By what the Dems in the House are doing we can't do neither. BTW for all those people that cry out Privacy, PSST they don't care. You are not that sanctimoniously worth it to them.
The Government obviously is failing to do that... Have you ever been to the Home Depot in Lodi on a weekday morning??? A lot of illegal Mexicans asking for a job (and takes away American jobs)...

Taking away our freedoms in the name of security is NOT protection. It's a VIOLATION of our rights... Of course, you need to use some common sense.

-Tzale

Raptor
Not a Dumptruck
join:2001-10-21
London, ON

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Re: This Wouldn't Bother Me So Much ...

I live and work in an area where a satellite could fall on me. Stop living in fear.
nasadude
join:2001-10-05
Rockville, MD

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nasadude

Member

Re: This Wouldn't Bother Me So Much ...

said by Raptor:

I live and work in an area where a satellite could fall on me. Stop living in fear.
you beat me to it. there is a higher chance of being hit by lightning than of being injured or killed in a terrorist attack.

why is there no global war on lightning?

wish I had thought of this earlier: they have already started the global war on satellites.

the people that have this unreasoning fear are the ones that are enabling the gutting of our constitution. Unfortunately, this includes a number of our elected representatives.

swhx7
Premium Member
join:2006-07-23
Elbonia

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to pnh102
said by pnh102:

... except for the fact that I work in an area that would probably be in the fallout zone of a terrorist attack.

Apart from home-grown fanatics, terrorism has struck the US only once, and it's unclear whether the 2001.09.11 crimes were purely foreign-originated or another Reichstag fire.

Since then any real threat of terrorism has continued only because US foreign policy, including support of Zionism and wars of aggression and plunder, have made enemies; and concern about it has continued mainly because news media have continuously spewed propaganda designed to foster fear, obedience, and support for the belligerent foreign policy.

Objectively, you're far more likely to die from a car accident or falling down stairs than to be directly affected by terrorism.

The whole idea that there is some conflict between civil liberties and security, or that eroding citizens' rights somehow makes us safer, is complete rubbish. If there's evidence of a crime, authorities can get a warrant and spy on someone; if there's no evidence of a crime then there's no reason to think the person is a threat and no reason to think we're unsafe for not spying on him.

How many of the lies have you fallen for? The bizarre idea that Saddam Hussein was a threat to the US? The myth of "Al Quaeda"? The absurd pretence that the oil war was about "spreading democracy"? Better keep an eye on the realities: the Bush gang have bankrupted the nation and taken us far along the path to fascism.
rahvin112
join:2002-05-24
Sandy, UT

rahvin112

Member

Re: This Wouldn't Bother Me So Much ...

said by swhx7:

said by pnh102:

... except for the fact that I work in an area that would probably be in the fallout zone of a terrorist attack.

Apart from home-grown fanatics, terrorism has struck the US only once, and it's unclear whether the 2001.09.11 crimes were purely foreign-originated or another Reichstag fire.

Since then any real threat of terrorism has continued only because US foreign policy, including support of Zionism and wars of aggression and plunder, have made enemies; and concern about it has continued mainly because news media have continuously spewed propaganda designed to foster fear, obedience, and support for the belligerent foreign policy.
I think you are needed down at the next racist militia meeting, you'll fit right in.

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
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join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

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said by swhx7:

Apart from home-grown fanatics, terrorism has struck the US only once, and it's unclear whether the 2001.09.11 crimes were purely foreign-originated or another Reichstag fire.
I see.

You get points for using line breaks, but that's it.
ackman
join:2000-10-04
Atlanta, GA

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to pnh102
said by pnh102:

... except for the fact that I work in an area that would probably be in the fallout zone of a terrorist attack.
I wouldn't be so worried about the effect of this proposed legislation on your personal safety from terrorism, they're focusing more on wiretapping sex "crimes".

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
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join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

pnh102

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Re: This Wouldn't Bother Me So Much ...

said by ackman:

I wouldn't be so worried about the effect of this proposed legislation on your personal safety from terrorism, they're focusing more on wiretapping sex "crimes".
And why shouldn't we expect people who we entrust with enforcing the laws to actually obey these laws? Just because such people do not agree with these laws does not mean they are magically exempt from the law.

Eliot Spitzer is no better than the rogue cops in Montgomery County, Maryland who refuse to pay their speeding camera tickets. They are all punks who believe that they are personally above the law and people with that kind of attitude have no place in government.
ackman
join:2000-10-04
Atlanta, GA

ackman

Member

Re: This Wouldn't Bother Me So Much ...

said by pnh102:

said by ackman:

I wouldn't be so worried about the effect of this proposed legislation on your personal safety from terrorism, they're focusing more on wiretapping sex "crimes".
And why shouldn't we expect people who we entrust with enforcing the laws to actually obey these laws? Just because such people do not agree with these laws does not mean they are magically exempt from the law.

Eliot Spitzer is no better than the rogue cops in Montgomery County, Maryland who refuse to pay their speeding camera tickets. They are all punks who believe that they are personally above the law and people with that kind of attitude have no place in government.
I wonder why the good Republican senator David Vitters didn't get run out of office for his prostitute-banging. To my knowledge, prostitution is illegal in Washington DC also. Seems he didn't p*ss off any good old boy Republicans with deep pockets like Mr. Spitzer did. I applaud him for going after the stock exchange folks. Funny how we only go after Democrats when they enjoy a little sex on the side. Republicans seem to surround themselves with their preachers, their American flag lapel pins, and they sink their claws into their desks and hang on. So, go ahead and hang him, certainly a lot better to go after a little sex than after Osama, who is laughing his arse off at our incompetence. Yep, proud to be an American.

rudnicke
Premium Member
join:2004-10-23
Rantoul, IL

rudnicke

Premium Member

I'll be glad

When this administration is gone.

••••

boognish
Premium Member
join:2001-09-26
Baton Rouge, LA

boognish

Premium Member

where are the people....

That always use that quote if they haven't done anything wrong then they shouldn't have anything to hide?
This is one time I sort of agree with that quote. If they didn't break any laws or do anything wrong then they wouldn't need immunity. It is not like a large company under so many regulations and with so many lawyers didn't know the laws and consequences of their actions before hand.

•••••••••••
nutcr0cker
join:2003-04-02
Chandler, AZ

nutcr0cker

Member

Where is the nothing-to-hide crowd

Neocons are a phunny bunch....lately have seen too many around BBR did the slowing economy result ib most of them being fired or what?

•••••••
EPS4
join:2008-02-13
Hingham, MA

EPS4

Member

Too bad

If there is really a lawsuit that the telcos lost, the only thing that'll happen is that you'll get a new fee on your bill to pay off the millions that will go straight to a few class-action lawyers...

••••••••••••••••

ropeguru
Premium Member
join:2001-01-25
Mechanicsville, VA

ropeguru

Premium Member

All this is..

is a way for them to get backdoor immunity. Up front you allow for the suit to take place. Then behind the closed doors, the telcos and politicians sit back and put in a call to Spitzer for advice on which girl is best.
mglunt
join:2001-09-10
Fredericksburg, VA

mglunt

Member

Re: All this is..

I should be able to communicate with known or suspected terrorists in foreign countries without the threat of a wiretap. At the very least, warrants should be issued so that I am done talking by the time they are granted.

Thank you democrats for fighting for my freedom!

raulgarza
join:2000-05-02
Union City, NJ

raulgarza

Member

Re: All this is..

said by mglunt:

I should be able to communicate with known or suspected terrorists in foreign countries without the threat of a wiretap. At the very least, warrants should be issued so that I am done talking by the time they are granted.

Thank you democrats for fighting for my freedom!
you got it half right.
as for the second part read FISA about warrantless wiretaps.

Noah Vail
Oh God please no.
Premium Member
join:2004-12-10
SouthAmerica

Noah Vail

Premium Member

Cut 'em off at the past. (thnx FST)

This is what the Dems want to replace.

Here are HR3773 Fun Facts.
No mention of the telco lawsuits.
»www.govtrack.us/congress ··· =summary

This bill was introduced Oct 9, 2007.
It passed the House on Nov 15, 2007 by 227-189.

It passed the Senate on Feb 13, 2008.
The Senate passage was Universal.

So the Dems voted for the original. So why this replacement?
NV
amigo_boy
join:2005-07-22

1 edit

amigo_boy

Member

Re: Cut 'em off at the past. (thnx FST)

said by Noah Vail:

So the Dems voted for the original. So why this replacement?
Wedge issue during election-year politics.

Edit to add: I'm sure they want the telcos to get past this. They're working a compromise which the EFF supports. Then they have political cover. Politicians use the NRA like this too. Jon Kyl voted for the AW ban (10 years ago) with the NRA's blessing. Special interest groups and politicians use each other while creating the illusion of "victory."

Mark
81399672 (banned)
join:2006-05-17
Los Angeles, CA

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said by Noah Vail:

This is what the Dems want to replace.

Here are HR3773 Fun Facts.
No mention of the telco lawsuits.
»www.govtrack.us/congress ··· =summary

This bill was introduced Oct 9, 2007.
It passed the House on Nov 15, 2007 by 227-189.

It passed the Senate on Feb 13, 2008.
The Senate passage was Universal.

So the Dems voted for the original. So why this replacement?
NV
Original didn't have immunity in it, senate added immunity to the bill.
Mr Matt
join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL

1 edit

Mr Matt

Member

What came first the Chicken or the Egg

Some food for thought. This is why I believe warrant less wire taps are dangerous. They can be used for political purposes. Consider the situation regarding Eliot Spitzer. Mr. Spitzer is a Democrat and Governor of New York State. Apparently he had a falling out with the New York State Legislature. According to government officials the IRS was investigating some suspicious transfer of personal funds by Mr. Spitzer. As a result the Governor's Telecommunication Facilities were tapped. That is the governments story. What if on the other hand Mr. Spitzer's Telecommunication Facilities were tapped in order to dig up some dirt to throw in his face. In this case the opposing political party got a whole Manure Spreader full of you know what, to throw in his face. In fact what if all Democrats Telecommunication Facilities are tapped in order to find out some dirt to throw in there respective faces. Remember tricky Dicks Watergate scandal and attempted cover up.

What if one of the politicians children talk to one of their friends about smoking pot on the phone or via text messaging, would the opposing party then have justification to have the police pick the kid up and then arrest them for drug possession. The opposing party could then use the incident to embarrass the kids parents. Remember the current administration is accused of placing friendly prosecutors in key positions to find excuses to prostitute the Democrats on trumped charges. This is the real danger of warrant less wire taps.
MyDogHsFleas
Premium Member
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX

MyDogHsFleas

Premium Member

Re: What came first the Chicken or the Egg

(shaking head) Don't even go there, Mr. Conspiracy Theory. Spitzer was either deliberately trying to get caught, or more likely, was just so arrogant he thought he could do anything and get away with it.

The guy did cash transactions of a size that GUARANTEES the bank will report it to the IRS. The IRS HAS to look at it. It's the law.

When the IRS noted that these transactions were connected to a current FBI case, they simply passed it on to the FBI. The FBI was not looking for Spitzer by any strech of the imagination. They were getting ready to close down a big time prostitution ring. Spitzer was simply dropped into their laps.

raulgarza
join:2000-05-02
Union City, NJ

raulgarza

Member

Its about responsability

I am neither a Democrat or a Republican both are too extreme
in their views.

I am for holding the telecoms responsible, and therefore holding the government responsible. that is the whole point about the warrants.
as for the fear mongers that whine about timing, you can do warrant less taps but you have to get a warrant after the fact.

Want to do something about the terrorists? Join the military. I did.
MyDogHsFleas
Premium Member
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX

MyDogHsFleas

Premium Member

Where is the big block quote from the other side?

To, you know, make this an actually balanced story. As opposed to shilling for the EFF.

Here's a cut and paste for you from the linked article. Feel free to put it into the original news story.
quote:
Texas Rep. Lamar Smith, the top Republican on the House Judiciary Committee, said that without immunity for telephone companies, the Democrats' surveillance bill would be "dead on arrival."

"Today's proposal is further evidence that House Democrats are not only out of touch with the needs of the American people, but also with Senate Democrats, the White House and our intelligence community," he said in a written statement. "Their careless disregard for the concerns of our intelligence community simply proves the point that Democrats are weak on national security."

A joint statement from the Department of Justice and the office of the director of national intelligence said that based on initial reports, "We are concerned that the proposal would not provide the intelligence community the critical tools needed to protect the country."

The statement also restates the administration's position that immunity protection is needed so the program can continue.

"Exposing the private sector to continued litigation for assisting in efforts to defend the country understandably makes the private sector much more reluctant to cooperate. Without their cooperation, our efforts to protect the country cannot succeed," it said.



i1me2ao
Premium Member
join:2001-03-03
TEXAS

i1me2ao

Premium Member

wrong impression maybe

i thought the main reason for immunity was preventing every law office and judge in the country obtaining classified information. but hey lets forget about that and spin for reelection..

tbsteph
join:2002-01-31
Maineville, OH

tbsteph

Member

Re: wrong impression maybe

More grandstanding by the Dem's. There only concern with this issue is to exaggerate the truth to enhance their own political power.

THX_1138
neo-luddite
Premium Member
join:2007-01-24
San Jose, CA

1 edit

THX_1138

Premium Member

Nobody's Life is That Interesting

I think it's funny that people complain about their loss of rights for another reason. Nobody's life is that interesting.

What do the Feds care if you surf for porn or check out a book on this subject or that?

Most people don't give a hoot about the person who's standing right next to them. Why should the federal government be any different? They probably couldn't care less that you bought firecrackers in a state where they're illegal, or emailed your girlfriend a lusty note, or... you fill in the blanks. They're probably bored to tears with the mundane vagaries of human beings. It probably depresses them more than it incites them to come after you.

I'd much rather the Feds do what they say their doing; intercepting calls/messages that target terrorist targets than have the Congress play politics with this thing and kill it over some vague notion of "rights". The notion that my rights will slip away if I'm not vigilant is a little paranoid, in my opinion. At the first whiff of a real right being taken away, the people would rebel. No one and no thing could stand up against the onslaught of the people demanding the right be restored. People working for the Feds would rat them out. There is no cabal. There is no conspiracy.

Nobody's life is that interesting.

Mully
@verizon.com

Mully

Anon

Follow the Money

It's not about domestic spying. The phone network is a PUBLIC network. How many people here have myspace or facebook pages and then complain about privacy. Also have a look back in time for the Echelon program run during the Clinton years. I think you'll find warrantless tapping going on here as well.

This whole mess is about MONEY. It so large donors, who are lawyers, can sue telco's, who have the deep pockets. The largest donors to Democrats are lawyers. Follow the money.

huntml
join:2002-01-23
Mullica Hill, NJ

huntml

Member

Re: Follow the Money

"It's not about domestic spying. The phone network is a PUBLIC network. How many people here have myspace or facebook pages and then complain about privacy. Also have a look back in time for the Echelon program run during the Clinton years. I think you'll find warrantless tapping going on here as well."

All probably true but not particularly cogent as an argument.

1. It does not follow from the fact that the phone network is a public network that neither the industry nor the executive branch need be concerned with the niceties of following the law.

2. It does not follow, from the fact that people voluntarily make things public about themselves, that the government and/or the telcos are therefore entitled to violate their privacy in violation of law and telco regulation without their consent.

3. Re: Echelon: agree totally, but two rights do not make a wrong. Didn't your mom ever tell you that?

"This whole mess is about MONEY. It so large donors, who are lawyers, can sue telco's, who have the deep pockets. The largest donors to Democrats are lawyers. Follow the money."

True, the trial lawyers tend to skew heavily Democratic in their political contributions. OTOH, the telecoms tend to skew slightly Republican but are much more even in their contributions.

Hence the situation we have, where the Dems are divided and the Republicans are united behind the telecoms.

Like you said, follow the money.

i1me2ao
Premium Member
join:2001-03-03
TEXAS

i1me2ao to Mully

Premium Member

to Mully
true there are several hundred class litigation's against all the companies in the waiting. but no media wants to discuss this..

hmmmmmm
@sbcglobal.net

hmmmmmm

Anon

"They"

You never know what's really happening until years later, if the people only knew what was really going on now they would wake up.

Here is some US History for you.

»www.icdc.com/~paulwolf/c ··· ntel.htm
wwwqueen
join:2008-04-15

wwwqueen

Member

Re: "They"

I make it a point to look at what the politicians are doing even more carefully than I usually do when the media start trumpeting endlessly about something nobody cares about. There is usually something going on in DC that we would care a great deal about if we could sort it out from the background noise.

TechieZero
Tools Are Using Me
Premium Member
join:2002-01-25
Lithia, FL

TechieZero

Premium Member

Sucks

Sucks to be these guys. Either refuse a Fed Agent and then get arrested for obstruction or deal with jackasses on the hill. I would have turned over what they wanted as well.