Republicans Pushing Telecom Immunity Vote

said by S_engineer

:

Funny how when you download music via bit torrent, it's seems to be ok. But when our gov't sifts through the network...it's facism. What a load of crap!
Any person thats ever downloaded a song illegally is just as guilty as the gov't for "obtaining binary" that they're not entitled to!

Are you being intentionally dense? If not, I'll be more than happy to explain the difference to you.
--
It's wierdo, not weirdo. Yes, I know that's not the 'proper' spelling of the similar english language word.

permalink · 2008-04-25 16:31:04 · Print ·

insomniac84 join:2002-01-03 Schererville, IN	Amigo, you are not a republican then. Republicans are for less government.
	permalink · 2008-04-25 09:53:46 ·

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK

Re: Dem contributing trial lawyers & election politics holdup

said by insomniac84

:

Republicans are for less government.

No.... not really. Maybe once. These days, the Republican party merely gives lip service to this, while actually increasing Government size and expanding Government Scope and Power at previously unheard of speed... (Well, since WWII. anyway.)

Republicans these days all seem to be about "Keep your hands off our money" and "No business regulation for OUR businesses" but want strict control over everything else....
--
"Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!)

permalink · 2008-04-25 13:41:06 · Print ·

JakCrow

join:2001-12-06
Palo Alto, CA

·DSL EXTREME

Re: Dem contributing trial lawyers & election politics holdup

said by KrK

said by insomniac84

:

Republicans are for less government.

People would be hard pressed to find a moment in time when republicans really practiced what they preach.

permalink · 2008-04-25 13:52:09 · Print ·

boognish
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Baton Rouge, LA
clubs:

If they didn't do anything wrong then they shouldn't have anything to worry about. They should not be offered immunity and rewarded if what they did was wrong and they knew what they were doing was wrong. They have enough lawyers and are under enough regulations to know if what they did was kosher or not. It should not be about what party you are in or how you feel about spying and the war. We are a country governed by laws. There should not be a set of laws for one class or for one type of organization. It should be an even playing field and the same rules should be applied to everyone regardless of class, size, political leaning, or anything else. If they chose to ignore or bend the rules for someone then screw them now they can suffer the consonances.
--
don't get 2 close 2 my fantasy

permalink · 2008-04-24 17:17:56 · Print ·

LiamJunket
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·Comcast

Re: Dem contributing trial lawyers & election politics holdup

said by boognish

:

If they didn't do anything wrong then they shouldn't have anything to worry about. They should not be offered immunity and rewarded if what they did was wrong and they knew what they were doing was wrong. They have enough lawyers and are under enough regulations to know if what they did was kosher or not. It should not be about what party you are in or how you feel about spying and the war. We are a country governed by laws. There should not be a set of laws for one class or for one type of organization. It should be an even playing field and the same rules should be applied to everyone regardless of class, size, political leaning, or anything else. If they chose to ignore or bend the rules for someone then screw them now they can suffer the consonances.

Well, I live in the real world and not in the fantasy land you apparently think we should live in. You are ignoring the "Golden Rule" - those who have the gold rule. That rule has controlled the world for thousands of years and nothing I have ever seen in governance around the world is going to change it.
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page

permalink · 2008-04-24 17:24:38 · Print ·

dsldude08 Premium,VIP join:2008-01-03 La Crosse, WI	Re: Dem contributing trial lawyers & election politics holdup You are part of the cause of all of this if that is your attitude. The reason for that is because you sit back and let them get away with these things and refuse to try to change the ways when you actually have the power to do so.
	permalink · 2008-04-24 17:29:27 ·

LiamJunket
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Re: Dem contributing trial lawyers & election politics holdup

said by dsldude08

:

You are part of the cause of all of this if that is your attitude. The reason for that is because you sit back and let them get away with these things and refuse to try to change the ways when you actually have the power to do so.

I think you miss the point. I am on the side of those who rule - not on the side of the "great unwashed" masses.
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page

permalink · 2008-04-24 17:35:20 · Print ·

rit56

join:2000-12-01
New York, NY

Re: Dem contributing trial lawyers & election politics holdup

everyone should note that you Mr. America are in favor of corporations violating the Constitution, breaking the law. they broke the law and should be punished, period. what don't you understand about this? they broke the law and it is a known fact... the telecoms were handing this information over before 9 11 and it did nothing to stop 9 11. they were spying on ordinary citizens who differed in their politics. they broke the law.

permalink · 2008-04-24 17:42:09 ·

amigo_boy

join:2005-07-22
Tempe, AZ

·magicjack.com

Re: Dem contributing trial lawyers & election politics holdup

said by rit56

:

they broke the law and should be punished,

If they broke the law, charge them criminally. Civil court isn't where criminal prosecutions occur. Most people opposed to wiretapping usually admit that they don't want to do the work involved with prosecuting law breakers (impeachment of the President, congressional hearings, criminal prosecutions, etc.). What they're really saying is that they're ok with taking the same shortcuts they accuse the government of taking.

And, for what it's worth, the laws cover the telcos' actions. 18 U.S.C. 2511(2)(a)(ii)(B) grants immunity merely if the AG certifies that a warrant isn't necessary.

U.S.C. 2702(a)(3) & (c) does the same thing if a telco has reasonable belief of imminent danger. This was amended in 2006 to reduce "reasonable belief" of "imminent danger" to merely "good faith belief" of "danger" (not imminent). This tends to show the legislative branch felt the laws should be relaxed -- not strengthened.

Mark

permalink · 2008-04-24 20:03:41 · Print ·

rahvin112

join:2002-05-24
Sandy, UT

Re: Dem contributing trial lawyers & election politics holdup

The current administration is unwilling to pursue criminal charges, beyond the obvious reasons such prosecution would likely implicate many of the politicians currently in charge.

Given the discord and contempt with which most Americans hold the president and this administration lets allows the guard to change then discuss the bill rationally. Once the deck isn't stacked with the same criminals that asked the companies to violate the law we'll have a much fairer verdict on whether the telecom companies should be charged for violations of the privacy policies they themselves prepared and agreed to abide by.

But those criminal charges alone don't negate the civil penalties for the actions. No civil immunity should be granted to any company, especially one that willingly broke the law and their own policies.

Hopefully in 8 short months real criminal charges will be filed against everyone that was involved including those in the administration who were involved, hopefully right to the top of the current administration. Willful disregard of the law should be punished severely. I'd personally like to see the soon to be former president charged, convicted and jailed for his egregious breaking of laws, authorization of subordinates (who don't deserve protection because they were ordered to do it) to break the law and his other illegal behavior while president. Just because current politics protect him, shouldn't give him immunity for his actions. We apparently need a precedent that sitting presidents are accountable for their actions after leaving office as the founders intended.

permalink · 2008-04-24 20:49:57 · Print ·

amigo_boy

join:2005-07-22
Tempe, AZ

·magicjack.com

Re: Dem contributing trial lawyers & election politics holdup

said by rahvin112

:

Hopefully in 8 short months real criminal charges will be filed against everyone that was involved including those in the administration who were involved, hopefully right to the top of the current administration.

I'm ok with that. I just haven't liked the idea of using civil suits as a proxy for criminal prosecution (which is what many opponents of wiretapping have openly admitted it to be). Eight months isn't long.

But, I doubt there will be criminal prosecutions because the law permits the wiretapping. See my previous posts in this topic. There may be a reason to charge the President or Attorney General for abusing these laws. But, it appears the telcos were within the law.

BTW: The immunity deal only protects against civil suits for activities between 9/11/2001 to early 1/17/2007. It won't interfere with your hoped-for criminal prosecutions. And, it could be repealed.

Mark

permalink · 2008-04-24 21:06:58 · Print ·

wierdo join:2001-02-16 Tulsa, OK ·Future Nine Corpor.. ·Teliax VOIP	said by amigo_boy : If they broke the law, charge them criminally. That would require a federal prosecutor to bring charges. Sadly, the Bush administration purged all the ones who wouldn't kowtow to the political purposes of the higher-ups. Or did you conveniently forget about that? -- It's wierdo, not weirdo. Yes, I know that's not the 'proper' spelling of the similar english language word.
	permalink · 2008-04-24 21:57:23 · Print ·

amigo_boy join:2005-07-22 Tempe, AZ ·Cox HSI ·magicjack.com	Re: Dem contributing trial lawyers & election politics holdup said by wierdo : Or did you conveniently forget about that? You have congressional hearings available to you. And elections to replace those you believe are preventing justice. Just 8 months. Mark
	permalink · 2008-04-24 22:02:36 ·

wierdo

join:2001-02-16
Tulsa, OK

Re: Dem contributing trial lawyers & election politics holdup

said by amigo_boy

said by wierdo

:

Or did you conveniently forget about that?

You have congressional hearings available to you. And elections to replace those you believe are preventing justice. Just 8 months.

What a nice tactic. Change the subject when you don't like someone's point. Today, and since 2004, it has not been possible to federally prosecute a crime that the political machine does not want to see prosecuted.

Besides, the ECPA and other wiretap laws specifically create a civil cause of action, so I don't know where you get off saying that these companies should only find themselves in criminal court. Are you just carrying water for the administration?

I hope you're getting paid well for your obfuscatory services.
--
It's wierdo, not weirdo. Yes, I know that's not the 'proper' spelling of the similar english language word.

permalink · 2008-04-24 22:11:59 · Print ·

amigo_boy

join:2005-07-22
Tempe, AZ

·magicjack.com

Re: Dem contributing trial lawyers & election politics holdup

said by wierdo

:

What a nice tactic. Change the subject when you don't like someone's point. Today, and since 2004, it has not been possible to federally prosecute a crime that the political machine does not want to see prosecuted.

Sorry. I didn't realize I changed the topic. You complained that it's impossible for criminal charges to be brought due to the current administration. I responded that you have political options such as 1) pressure Congress to hold hearings (and call for prosecutions depending on the results). And, 2) use the election process to replace those who you believe aren't pursuing justice.

said by wierdo

:

Besides, the ECPA and other wiretap laws specifically create a civil cause of action, so I don't know where you get off saying that these companies should only find themselves in criminal court.

I was just replying to the incessant statements that "a crime was committed" or "they broke the law." If those statements are true, the place to prove it is in a criminal court, not civil. Many proponents of these civil suits have openly stated that it's being done because it's easier than seeking criminal charges. (Which sounds a lot like what the corner-cutting which the Administration is accused of.).

Mark

permalink · 2008-04-24 22:46:45 · Print ·

KrK
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Re: Dem contributing trial lawyers & election politics holdup

said by amigo_boy

:

I was just replying to the incessant statements that "a crime was committed" or "they broke the law." If those statements are true, the place to prove it is in a criminal court, not civil. Many proponents of these civil suits have openly stated that it's being done because it's easier than seeking criminal charges. (Which sounds a lot like what the corner-cutting which the Administration is accused of.).

You have repeated this theme several times. This type of logic goes like this "Because no criminal prosecution is occurring, no criminal activity must of occurred."

That's bassackwards. As I have stated before, a citizen cannot bring criminal charges against someone or some organization... all they can do is allege or accuse! It's up to the GOVERNMENT to FILE criminal charges. In this case, the Administration is complicit and equally guilty, and so THEY AREN'T filing charges against themselves, are they?

This means the *only* recourse a citizen has to bring out the truth IS a civil case. Any citizen can file a civil lawsuit. A citizen *CANNOT* file a criminal prosecution!

Sheesh! Round and round, and still you keep saying the same thing.

permalink · 2008-04-25 00:28:36 · Print ·

wierdo

join:2001-02-16
Tulsa, OK

said by amigo_boy

:

Sorry. I didn't realize I changed the topic. You complained that it's impossible for criminal charges to be brought due to the current administration. I responded that you have political options such as 1) pressure Congress to hold hearings (and call for prosecutions depending on the results). And, 2) use the election process to replace those who you believe aren't pursuing justice.

Congressional hearings do not equal criminal prosecutions.

Somehow, I expect that the folks who are obstructing the workings of the criminal justice system will not be returning. Well, unless they decide to truly wipe their ass with the Constitution. I'm so very glad that Roosevelt had that third term. Were it not for him, we wouldn't have term limits any longer. Of course, I doubt that Bush could be elected again anyway, but it's nice to have certainty that he will be departing.

said by amigo_boy

No one needs to prove it to you, and regardless of your opinion on the civil suit, there are statutory damages specified in law. Why? Because the people who wrote the law were well aware that many instances of this malfeasance would not be prosecuted. Interestingly, it's the same reason why many environmental laws and quite a few trade regulations have a private cause of action specifically written into them.

Obviously, civil court is one of the places for this, given that it's written into the law.
--
It's wierdo, not weirdo. Yes, I know that's not the 'proper' spelling of the similar english language word.

permalink · 2008-04-25 02:16:20 · Print ·

lg75 join:2003-01-31 Bronx, NY 2 edits	No we didn't miss the point. We get it. You think it is perfectly legal for someone to go into someone else's house, steal their wallet and get away with it... Good point you make there.
	permalink · 2008-04-24 17:45:32 ·

See 20 replies to this post

james join:2001-02-26 antarctica	Not to invoke Godwin's Law, but...
	permalink · 2008-04-24 18:40:19 ·

nasadude join:2001-10-05 Rockville, MD ·Comcast	said by LiamJunket : I think you miss the point. I am on the side of those who rule - not on the side of the "great unwashed" masses. don't tell me you're .. gasp.. elitist!
	permalink · 2008-04-24 19:47:39 ·

KoolMoe
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Annapolis, MD
clubs:

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I appreciate TK actually being upfront about being elitist. I actually find that kinda funny; that's a term that Republicans love to push in attempts to bash the political rivals. Kinda sad how well it works - those damn welfare-loving Democrats are elitist while those corporate-profit-above-everything Republicans are more like us 'regular Joes'.
Hrumph.

I think it's pretty plain that those who support the fascist tactics of this administration are either:
1) living in deep fear
or
2) profiting from the government's actions and policies
or perhaps a combination of both.

I really don't see how anyone in their right mind who truly loves what this country stands for can support this destructive administration. Of course, that assumes that 'what this country stands for' is understood to be life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness...not selfishness, greed, and materialism.
KM

permalink · 2008-04-24 21:02:52 · Print ·

KrK Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy Premium join:2000-01-17 Tulsa, OK	If you can't beat Facism, become a Facist then, eh? No thanks. The People always win in the end, even if they have to tear down the castles and drag the facists from their beds and hang them... eventually.... the Empire falls.
	permalink · 2008-04-25 00:54:15 ·

LiamJunket Premium join:2002-03-03 Ocean City, NJ ·Comcast	Re: Dem contributing trial lawyers & election politics holdup said by KrK : The People always win in the end LOL. Sure they do. How naive of you.
	permalink · 2008-04-25 08:26:51 ·

KrK Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy Premium join:2000-01-17 Tulsa, OK ·Cox HSI ·AT&T Southwest	Re: Dem contributing trial lawyers & election politics holdup said by LiamJunket : LOL. Sure they do. How naive of you. Oh I'm not saying it's quick. It takes a long time, but eventually the revolution happens, the the Empires fall.
	permalink · 2008-04-25 13:37:36 ·

boognish Premium join:2001-09-26 Baton Rouge, LA clubs:	If history has shown anything in the real world those that have the gold have to watch how they rule or the peasants revolt at some point. -- don't get 2 close 2 my fantasy
	permalink · 2008-04-24 17:35:50 ·

See 6 replies to this post

en102
Canadian, eh?

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Valencia, CA

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2 edits

said by LiamJunket

:

Well, I live in the real world and not in the fantasy land you apparently think we should live in. You are ignoring the "Golden Rule" - those who have the gold rule. That rule has controlled the world for thousands of years and nothing I have ever seen in governance around the world is going to change it.

Or in more current context... those that have the Oil, rule. Which country 'owns' us right now? Saudi Arabia and Iraq.
--
Canada = Hollywood North

permalink · 2008-04-24 18:25:19 · Print ·

dsldude08 Premium,VIP join:2008-01-03 La Crosse, WI	Couldn't have said it better myself.
	permalink · 2008-04-24 17:27:21 ·

PhoenixDown -- Wants FIOS Premium join:2003-06-08 Fresh Meadows, NY clubs:	Totally agree, lets the courts review the case and make a decision based on the merits.
	permalink · 2008-04-24 17:36:58 ·

amigo_boy join:2005-07-22 Tempe, AZ ·Cox HSI ·magicjack.com	said by boognish : If they didn't do anything wrong then they shouldn't have anything to worry about. It's always funny how those who reject "if you've done nothing wrong, why do you oppose greater eavesdropping powers" are the first ones to use that same logic against the telcos. Mark
	permalink · 2008-04-24 19:54:21 ·

Dan888 join:2007-08-21 Wilmington, DE 1 edit	Do you feel it is unnecessary to determine if the companies violated the constitution? We do not even know what they need immunity for yet, if anything, as the cases are still ongoing and it is worth knowing what they did before we just give them immunity.
	permalink · 2008-04-24 17:53:00 ·

See 8 replies to this post

Corydon
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Denver, CO
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·Comcast

Anybody who considers himself a conservative and a believer in the Constitution ought to be against this.

The telecoms and the NSA have absolutely zero right to vacuum up all the data that crosses their networks and search it. I don't care if they're going after terrorists, kiddie porn, or any other bugaboo that the MSM dreams up. If you want to search my data (my property), you need to have a warrant.

The irony is, twenty years ago all the Republicans were saying things like "Better Dead Than Red". I guess they're all in favor of authoritarians as long as they're supposedly protecting us from a bunch of raving mullahs living in a cave.

Me, I'll stick with John Paul Jones. And it looks like I'll have to increase my contributions to the EFF again.

Why are House Republicans against liberty?
--
My opinions are my own. No-one else would want them!

permalink · 2008-04-24 18:15:50 · Print ·

viperlmw Premium join:2005-01-25	Re: Dem contributing trial lawyers & election politics holdup Actually, Republicans are all in favor of authortiarianism, as long as they are the authoritarians.
	permalink · 2008-04-24 18:29:30 ·

rahvin112

join:2002-05-24
Sandy, UT

The loss of the Communists is claimed as a great victory by the Republicans. At the same time they seem to have turned around and adopted everything about the Red Communists that they used to be opposed to.

1. National ID (witholding federal money from states that refuse to comply with national mandate)
2. Warrantless Searches.
3. Disregard for the courts.
4. Disregard for the Jury.
5. Use of torture.
6. Elimination of free debate (not allowing press that portrays the white house poorly to ask questions or be included in press events.
7. Elimination of free speech (protest zones)
8. Loyalty is more important than experience (Brown,etc)
10."Papers Please" (Fingerprints, retinal scans, DNA and databases of not only foreigners but every US citizen, and then tieing that information in with commercial databases)
11. A no-fly list with close to 1 million people on it. No ability to challenge your name being on the list, no accountability for the list and no criteria for being included on the list.
12. An FBI that has ADMITTED breaking the law (using national security letters thousands of times with no justification, no follow up and no accountability.)
13. Immunity from prosecution and civil action for friends of the administration.
14. Use of the state secrets privilege to eliminate the release of information that could be politically or criminally damaging to the administration. (a page right out of Nixon's book)

Real republicans died with the Neo-con's took over. It used to be about reducing government expense and of reducing our international commitment and involvement and protecting USA economic interests.

It's a disgrace, IMO the whole party should be thrown out.

permalink · 2008-04-24 21:14:07 · Print ·

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK

3 edits

That whole spiel is nothing more then politically grandstanding-- as is your post.... A Blog quote from Republican whip Roy Blunt, ya, you know that's the truth, and not just election year politics.

Yeah, that's what it's all about, siding with terrorists so lawyers can sue. Uh huh. Everyone who is against Telco immunity is some terrorist lover or trial lawyer. The Republican Whip can say all sorts of political propaganda, and you'll just swallow it hook, line, and sinker, eh? Wonder if he bothers to check how many of his esteemed Republicans are lawyers.... maybe that's why he tries to narrow the focus to only civil lawsuit trial lawyers... he doesn't want the crap he's shoveling to splash around on his fellow Congresscritters...

NO To quashing the investigations. No to immunity!

The lawsuits should proceed. You may want us to throw all civil liberties under the wheels of the administration, but I don't.

permalink · 2008-04-25 00:10:22 · Print ·

wierdo

join:2001-02-16
Tulsa, OK

»www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdG9f6YJnfY

Re: Dem contributing trial lawyers & election politics holdup

said by KrK

:

The lawsuits should proceed. You may want us to throw all civil liberties under the wheels of the administration, but I don't.

Worse, it's like changing the rules of the game in the middle of the third quarter because your team isn't ahead quite as far as you'd like.

(And it's a bad idea, but that's purely my opinion)
--
It's wierdo, not weirdo. Yes, I know that's not the 'proper' spelling of the similar english language word.

permalink · 2008-04-25 02:18:05 · Print ·

workforaliving

@verizon.net

stopthebiggovernmentcommunism

Its so hypocritical to think that when programs designed to help out the average citizen are criticized as promoting communism & socialism.. but when it freebies for big business show up for prioritized passage, it's business as usual.. and that there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. If you knowingly and willingly break the law there are criminal and civil liabilities which you must face. No entity should be above the rule of law. That includes THE OIL AND GAS INDUSTRY.

Now get off your ass a give a shit about rising fuel prices and big government, big business bailouts.

permalink · 2008-04-24 18:32:47 · Print ·

INT0CABLE
BANNED
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·Optimum Online

and they are good with propaganda

permalink · 2008-04-24 18:35:46 ·

public join:2002-01-19 Santa Clara, CA ·DSL EXTREME	Re: and they are good with propaganda said by INT0CABLE : (youtube clip) Really?? Another FoxNoise pathetic attempt. This after Lincolnesque president, the surge worked, the dollar is strong... The telecoms acted lawfully by breaking the FISA law, therefore need immunity from prosecution. Makes perfectly good sense. Go Fox yourself.
	permalink · 2008-04-25 03:09:34 ·

MyDogHsFleas Premium join:2007-08-15 Austin, TX ·AT&T U-Verse ·AT&T Southwest	Re: and they are good with propaganda said by public : Another FoxNoise pathetic attempt. Are you delusional? This was a Republican ad, not a Fox News story. Get a grip man.
	permalink · 2008-04-25 09:14:02 ·

public join:2002-01-19 Santa Clara, CA ·DSL EXTREME	Re: and they are good with propaganda said by MyDogHsFleas : Are you delusional? This was a Republican ad, not a Fox News story. Get a grip man. What are you talking about. FoxNoise, RNC, Pentagon publicity office and many others are just a part of the Ministry of Propaganda working together to protect the children.
	permalink · 2008-04-25 12:17:13 ·

MyDogHsFleas
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Austin, TX

·AT&T U-Verse

»www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksSGdh-Sox4

Re: and they are good with propaganda

said by public

said by MyDogHsFleas

:

Are you delusional? This was a Republican ad, not a Fox News story. Get a grip man.

What are you talking about. FoxNoise, RNC, Pentagon publicity office and many others are just a part of the Ministry of Propaganda working together to protect the children.

mmmm yeah ok. I really hope you are kidding or being sarcastic. Otherwise I suggest you seek help.

permalink · 2008-04-25 12:21:17 · Print ·

public

join:2002-01-19
Santa Clara, CA

·DSL EXTREME

Re: and they are good with propaganda

said by MyDogHsFleas

:

mmmm yeah ok. I really hope you are kidding or being sarcastic. Otherwise I suggest you seek help.

Any help to hold these El Rovelito dream scumbags accountable is welcome.
Here is a sample

permalink · 2008-04-25 23:33:55 · Print ·

SKYWARP

join:2005-02-02
Portland, OR

·Comcast Formerly ..

No Immunity!

If you knowingly break the law, or unknowingly break the law, you have broken the law and should be subject to whatever fallout, civil or criminal, that comes your way.

Even if those telco's thought they were not breaking the law, they should have known better.

If a cop asks me to break into a house to get evidence for him, breaking into someone's house is still a crime and I should be responsible for any civil or criminal actions brought against me.

No different here. They should be fined, sued, and hand slapped so they won't do it again. Punishment is probably they only thing that will prevent this happening in the future.

permalink · 2008-04-24 19:39:40 · Print ·

Answer Guy join:2006-07-28 Grass Lake, MI	Re: No Immunity! You need to add something to your example: If a cop asks me to break into a house to get evidence for him while holding a gun to my head,..... The government controls everything the telecoms can do, what makes you think they did everything willingly? Maybe that is what Bush is trying to protect in getting the immunity?
	permalink · 2008-04-24 22:52:48 ·

MyDogHsFleas
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Austin, TX

·AT&T U-Verse

*sigh* here we go again

The only thing wrong with this post is that none of this is about breaking laws.

It's about civil class action lawsuits by advocacy groups who are ginning up "damages" so that they can file the suits, backed by trial lawyers who are exclusively Democratic big-time donaters.

You may believe, personally, that "laws were broken", but unfortunately for you, that's not on the table.

permalink · 2008-04-25 09:08:00 ·

fatmanskinny Premium join:2004-01-04 Wandering	This is a great article and thread! Way to go Karl! I am not necessarily weighing in on the topic. Just a quick compliment to Karl and the BBR community for sharing. -- The only place where Success comes before Work is in the dictionary.
	permalink · 2008-04-24 21:35:26 ·

butlbj

join:2008-01-29
Maben, MS

i'm impressed

The great thing about this entire argument is that people are actually bringing facts to back up their assertions. It's a legitimate argument! Not just "your wrong" "no your wrong" "left wing loon!!" "right wing hack!!"
I don't have anything to hide so i don't mind the surveillance, but a good point can be brought up. That even the smallest sin can and will lead to a greater sin. What is now just tapping suspected terrorist, could over several years lead to tapping political enemies. 50 years from now I'd hate to be arrested because some communist democrat tapped my phone and found out i was part of some crazy hate group called Christianity and i wind up getting arrested.

permalink · 2008-04-25 00:57:25 · Print ·

wierdo join:2001-02-16 Tulsa, OK ·Future Nine Corpor.. ·Teliax VOIP	Re: i'm impressed said by butlbj : could over several years lead to tapping political enemies. The funny thing is that you just stated the exact reason we have anti-wiretapping laws on the books today. It's not as if it hasn't happened before. -- It's wierdo, not weirdo. Yes, I know that's not the 'proper' spelling of the similar english language word.
	permalink · 2008-04-25 02:25:09 · Print ·

atuarre
Here come the drums
Premium
join:2004-02-14
Lake Charles, LA
clubs:

RE

Not to fall between the cracks of the "party" lines, but I have observed that republicans tend to favor big business over the individual, a.k.a., this move to provide the telcos protection for the illegal things they were doing in the name of the war on terror.

They are probably pushing for this more now, than ever, because once the current administration is out of office, the new one might hold the telcos responsible for their actions. And they should be held accountable.

permalink · 2008-04-25 06:23:21 ·

MyDogHsFleas
Premium
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX

·AT&T U-Verse

»www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWfIhFhelm8

Re: RE

said by atuarre

:

Not to fall between the cracks of the "party" lines, but I have observed that republicans tend to favor big business over the individual,

Very interesting statement because it reveals an innate bias. The false duality is "big business" vs. "the individual", and the unspoken assumption is that big business is bad for the individual.

So it turns into a party-line statement, the thought carefully framed to lead the listener into that assumption, even though you assert that it's not.

If you aren't following me let's look at the opposite statement. "I have observed that Democrats tend to favor big government over the individual." See? I can get lots of people nodding their heads on this, and I've snuck past them the assumption that big government is bad for the individual.

A better way to put it is that liberals and conservatives have very different fundamental views on what systems and entities best serve the individual. Liberals favor big education, big unions, and big government. They prefer the courtroom and the legislature as the place to resolve disputes, and look to lawyers as their leaders. Conservatives favor big (and small) business, and big military/defense. They favor open competition (both business and military) as the place to resolve disputes, and look to entrepreneurs and warriors as their leaders.

a.k.a., this move to provide the telcos protection for the illegal things they were doing in the name of the war on terror.

You need to do the research. Legal vs. illegal is not the issue. It's about civil class action lawsuits.

They are probably pushing for this more now, than ever, because once the current administration is out of office, the new one might hold the telcos responsible for their actions. And they should be held accountable.

It's really an intelligence surveillance bill, not a telco immunity bill.

permalink · 2008-04-25 09:28:24 · Print ·

Woody79_00

join:2004-07-08

A must watch

This law is a violation of the 4th Amendment

this needs to go to Court, there was no judicial oversight of a program of such a broad scope.

You need to watch this video below, just so you can understand what is going on here...all of this is bad

permalink · 2008-04-25 09:20:34 · Print ·

geowil

join:2008-04-20
Laveen, AZ

·Qwest.net

·Cox HSI