Utopia Not So Picture PerfectInteresting plan, flawed execution... ( old news - 11:42AM Monday Apr 28 2008) tags: Fiber · competition · business · trouble · municipalRecent articles in both the Salt Lake Tribune and the Daily Herald note that things aren't going well for Utopia, the nation's largest municipal fiber network. The network currently links 11 Utah cites with FTTH connectivity, and offers wholesale access to ISPs like AT&T, XMission and MSTAR -- who each offer speeds up to 50Mbps for as low as $40 a month (albeit with caps). But a series of missteps, a vague business model and increased competition from local incumbents have resulted in some particularly ugly numbers: UTOPIA had projected it would bring fiber connections to as many as 70,000 households and businesses in its six member cities, and achieve a subscription rate of around 40 percent by 2008. To date, it has passed fiber connections to about 42,000 households and businesses, with only about 7,200 paying customers. On top of weak customer response, the network's construction costs are above what it had projected. UTOPIA is blaming an unexpected 18-month delay in securing a $67 million loan from the U.S. Department of Agriculture's Rural Utilities Services. Local ISP Mstar meanwhile complains that Utopia too strictly controls the types of tiers they can offer consumers, and they can't afford to eat the losses associated with competing with Comcast promotions. Last week, four Utopia member communities decided to refinance, while one voted against the refinancing. Related:- Powell, Wyoming: Population 5,500, Gets Fiber
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- Utopia Hits 100Mbps
- Powell Completes FTTH Build
- Who Knew? Home-Rolled Fiber Lowers Cable Rates
- TDS Telecom Launches 50 Mbps Fiber
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  jester121
join:2003-08-09 Lake Zurich, IL | Re: Shocking... Large corporation vs. government doesn't qualify as "predatory", unless we're talking about Godzilla vs. King Kong.
The whole point of competition is more choices and lower prices right? | |
|  |  |  |  |  wierdo
join:2001-02-16 Tulsa, OK
·Future Nine Corpor..
·Teliax VOIP
| Re: Shocking... said by jester121 :Large corporation vs. government doesn't qualify as "predatory", unless we're talking about Godzilla vs. King Kong. The whole point of competition is more choices and lower prices right? It's predatory when it's priced below cost, as several providers' service has been for years. -- It's wierdo, not weirdo. Yes, I know that's not the 'proper' spelling of the similar english language word.  | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  Skippy25
join:2000-09-13 Hazelwood, MO
| Re: Shocking... You would still be paying as a public citizen if a local incumbant was doing the same thing. The difference is you would have no say as the people that you voted in to serve you would be serving their gravy train business associates and handing them incentives left and right to make it happen.
The concept of Utopia is certainly the way to go: 1 network that is wholesaled out to those that want to service the people. Not only should this be done in communities, it should be done in states and it should be done nationwide. There is absolutely no reason we need a "utility" as such being built by everyone that wants to serve the people. | |
|  |  |  |   KrK Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy Premium join:2000-01-17 Tulsa, OK
·AT&T Yahoo
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| It's struggling with several issues, but one of the biggest is the fact the subscriber rate is much lower then expected. It's not like people don't want broadband, what's happening is that the incumbents are offering heavy promo deals and pricing (free install, free equipment, low rates, no contracts, etc) prices that they don't offer in other markets.
They are doing their best to try and kill it. Of course, if it does die, those promo prices will vanish.... -- "Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!) | |
|  |  |  |  |  jester121
join:2003-08-09 Lake Zurich, IL | Re: Shocking... Comcast and the other incumbents really should allow their market share to be eroded and lose lots of money in that market, right?  | |
|  |  |  |  |  |   KrK Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy Premium join:2000-01-17 Tulsa, OK | Re: Shocking... No. They should sign on the network. It's wholesale... but see that would be FAIR. They don't want FAIR, or competition. They want it ALL. A network that allows competition would mean they have to compete. They don't want that. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  jester121
join:2003-08-09 Lake Zurich, IL | Re: Shocking... All your Layer 1 and 2 are belong to us.
- The Government | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   Yauch
join:2005-06-24
| I don't have fiber or a muni network in my community and I can still get free installs and free equipment from Comcast and low rates and no contracts from at&t. Are they giving me these heavy promos just to kill a network 2000 miles away? Or is it just possible that the free market has worked out to my advantage in some small way? | |
|  |  |  |  |  |   marigolds Gainfully employed, finally Premium,MVM join:2002-05-13 Saint Louis, MO
| Re: Shocking... said by Yauch :I don't have fiber or a muni network in my community and I can still get free installs and free equipment from Comcast and low rates and no contracts from at&t. Are they giving me these heavy promos just to kill a network 2000 miles away? Or is it just possible that the free market has worked out to my advantage in some small way? You're getting a wireless router with 6 wireless cards, home wireless network setup, and 10/1 for $15 a month unbundled too? I want to know what you said to get that deal. -- ISCABBS - the oldest and largest BBS on the Internet telnet://bbs.iscabbs.com Professional Geographer Geographic Information Science researcher | |
|  |  |  |  |  axus
join:2001-06-18 Washington, DC
·Verizon Online DSL
| I think the taxpayers have to decide if they are getting their money's worth. If the incumbents are lowering their prices for everyone, how much money is everyone saving? 50,000 people x $20 per month is $12 million dollars a year. Increase the number of people and savings is even bigger. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |   pnh102 Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty Premium join:2002-05-02 Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| said by KrK :Only because they are under nuclear attack from the Big Incumbents.... But in this situation the incumbents have no real advantage over the socialist broadband program. Private companies have to pay taxes, abide by regulations and deal with all sorts of BS that a government operation is exempt from.
You would think that with the built in competitive advantages that socialist broadband has going for it, it would run circles around private companies, but once again, it continues to fail, and require more taxpayer money to bail out. -- This isn't fair! I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate! | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  jester121
join:2003-08-09 Lake Zurich, IL | Re: Shocking... Comcast paid 1.8 billion in taxes last year -- is that enough for you? | |
|  |  |  |  |   pnh102 Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty Premium join:2002-05-02 Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| said by BosstonesOwn :Yeah pay taxes , I bet. More like use loop holes to avoid paying taxes. Actually, you're right... I am wrong. No company pays taxes at all. We pay their tax bill as they pass their taxes onto us in the form of higher prices. -- This isn't fair! I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate! | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  jester121
join:2003-08-09 Lake Zurich, IL
·surpasshosting
·ViaTalk
| Re: Shocking... said by pnh102 :said by BosstonesOwn :Yeah pay taxes , I bet. More like use loop holes to avoid paying taxes. Actually, you're right... I am wrong. No company pays taxes at all. We pay their tax bill as they pass their taxes onto us in the form of higher prices. That's a bit silly isn't it? By that logic, you don't earn a salary -- you mooch it from the people who give money to your employer.  | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |   pnh102 Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty Premium join:2002-05-02 Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: Shocking... said by jester121 :That's a bit silly isn't it? By that logic, you don't earn a salary -- you mooch it from the people who give money to your employer. The taxes are still charged to the company, but the company simply raises prices to cover the costs of the taxes. -- This isn't fair! I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate! | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  BosstonesOwn
join:2002-12-15 Everett, MA clubs: | Re: Shocking... Exactly my point 
Shame folks people don't understand it some times. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   Bill_In_LA
@bellsouth.net
| Throwing around the word "Socialist" does not make it so. This system was approved by the voters. It may work out, it may not. However, broadband in this country is a mess and it's because the private companies control the last mile. We need to lay the damn fiber and let the people to control the last mile and have providers fight for their business. | |
|  |  |  |  |   Yauch
join:2005-06-24
| Re: Shocking... said by Bill_In_LA :
Throwing around the word "Socialist" does not make it so. This system was approved by the voters. And being popular doesn't mean it's not a prime example of socialism. Keep in mind 11 cities just promised nearly 30% of all tax revenue to keep this thing alive. We're splitting hairs between spending tax revenues and only gambling with them. | |
|  |  |  |  |   pnh102 Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty Premium join:2002-05-02 Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| said by Bill_In_LA :
Throwing around the word "Socialist" does not make it so. Of course not. However, that does not change the fact the system is socialist. Government-provided broadband is comperable to the old state-run industries of the USSR. The USSR would pour tons of resources into its state-owned industries to keep them running and we described that as socialist. If government here is pouring tons of resources into UTOPIA, which is government owned, how is it any different?
said by Bill_In_LA :
This system was approved by the voters. That just means a majority of voters are either dumb or do not pay taxes.
said by Bill_In_LA :
It may work out, it may not. It hasn't. It will simply drain more money from the taxpayers.
said by Bill_In_LA :
However, broadband in this country is a mess and it's because the private companies control the last mile. Whenever private companies do invest in fiber and other next generation technologies, the same people here who whine about us being "so far behind" are the first to whine that these innovators are somehow "skirting the rules." -- This isn't fair! I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate! | |
|  |  |  |  |  |   KrK Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy Premium join:2000-01-17 Tulsa, OK
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| Re: Shocking... said by pnh102 :If government here is pouring tons of resources into UTOPIA, which is government owned, how is it any different? In Communist USSR, the people didn't have a say or choice. Here, it's a democracy, and the public do get to vote on and approve the bonds and get to vote on and remove or leave in place the administrators. The people in the USSR had no such choice.
So, it maybe Government run, but it's democratically elected. -- "Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!) | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |   pnh102 Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty Premium join:2002-05-02 Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: Shocking... said by KrK :In Communist USSR, the people didn't have a say or choice. I am not comparing the differences in political freedom between the USSR and the USA. That aside, it is still 100% true that the old USSR would pour significant resources into keeping afloat inefficient and poorly managed state-owned industries. UTOPIA runs on exactly the same model. -- This isn't fair! I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate! | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   KrK Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy Premium join:2000-01-17 Tulsa, OK
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·AT&T Southwest
| Re: Shocking... I disagree. Utopia is actually an ideal system, and holds great promise in not only saving the communities money long term, but providing future services at affordable rates by 3rd parties. If it is ever allowed to reach fruition it will allow true competition to bridge the last mile.
If it achieves nothing else, at least it forced the incumbents to build out when they had been dragging their feet. Part of the reason Utopia came to exist is because the incumbents there weren't in any hurry to bring broadband to the area.
They sure got in a great big hurry though once they started to do it for themselves. -- "Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!) | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  See 24 replies to this post | |
 |  |  |   marigolds Gainfully employed, finally Premium,MVM join:2002-05-13 Saint Louis, MO
| said by pnh102 :said by KrK :Only because they are under nuclear attack from the Big Incumbents.... But in this situation the incumbents have no real advantage over the socialist broadband program. Private companies have to pay taxes, abide by regulations and deal with all sorts of BS that a government operation is exempt from. They have one major advantage. Utopia is barred from advertising. -- ISCABBS - the oldest and largest BBS on the Internet telnet://bbs.iscabbs.com Professional Geographer Geographic Information Science researcher | |
|  |  |  |  |  See 6 replies to this post | |
 |  |  Eric Martin
join:2005-06-19 66308
| $40 for 50mbps is great.
Leasing lines to Isp's sounds bad. It just adds to the cost.
Actually the gov there passed a law that they have to lease to ISP's....WTF.....why?
What went wrong?
From the beginning, UTOPIA and iProvo either chose, or were saddled with, a business model that has proved least successful in fiber rollouts, analysts say.
In 2001, the state Legislature passed the Utah Municipal Cable Television and Public Telecommunications Services Act, which allows cities to construct telecommunication infrastructure but not become the retail service provider for those systems. Instead, they have to use a wholesale model in which they build the digital pipe and then lease the lines to retail service providers such as Mstar.
That leads to underselling of the system and friction between the municipality, which needs to see a return on its multi-million dollar investment, and the service providers, which haven't risked as much, says Michael Render, president of RVA, a market research company that focuses on private and public fiber systems.
"They don't have skin in the game," he said. "The more difficult ones have been the wholesale systems such as iProvo and UTOPIA."
A consultant's report released last week found examples of that in iProvo.
"I found a lot of problems in the relationship between the two parties. Almost universally the telcom employees dislike or distrust the retailers, and this is then manifested in the working relationship between the two parties," wrote Doug Dawson of CCG Consulting. He said that Provo's contracts needed to be renegotiated to clearly delineate each party's tasks and responsibilities.
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|   Jerm
join:2000-04-10 Richland, WA
1 edit | Comcast/ATT wins... I have a friend who lives in that area, and both Comcast and AT&T went promo happy with the specific intent on killing off the municipal broadband.
Plus if you did sign up for 50mbps through a partner ISP, you can't do anything useful with it. Sorry no BT. | |
|  |  Austinloop
join:2001-08-19 Austin, TX | Re: Comcast/ATT wins... Really? I didn't realize that this was AT&T utility territory. Learn something new every day. Has anyone told Quest that this is AT&T territory?? | |
|  |  |  hottboiinnc ME
join:2003-10-15 Cleveland, OH | Re: Comcast/ATT wins... Its not. AT&T WAS a wholesale provider on the network Fiber Network, but recently decided to break its agreement. They agreed to offer service back before SBC became AT&T. UT is a Qwest state. | |
|  |  |  See 38 replies to this post | |
  IdontKENNIT
@pacbell.net
| I just don't understand why... the third party ISP's that's piggy backing the Utopia network don't come to terms to help pay for the fiber layout. If Utopia ceases to exist, don't they know the regional monopolies will win? Look what's happening with all those third party DSL ISP's. Before in the dot com days there were many, now it's all heading to just one per neighborhood - the baby Bells. | |
|  |  openbox9
join:2004-01-26 Alexandria, VA
·AT&T Southeast
| Re: I just don't understand why... said by IdontKENNIT :
the third party ISP's that's piggy backing the Utopia network don't come to terms to help pay for the fiber layout. My guess is that if the ISPs wanted to pay for the infrastructure they would have done so in the first place. | |
|  |  |  jester121
join:2003-08-09 Lake Zurich, IL | Re: I just don't understand why... My gut tells me they're all hoping the plug gets pulled and they can pick up the infrastructure in a fire sale. This would be a very smart business move. | |
|  nasadude
join:2001-10-05 Rockville, MD
·Comcast
| missed opportunity or lost cause? although some smaller municipal fiber deployments have been successful, it's harder to tell if the larger ones are beyond the capabilities of the local govts or if the games of the incumbents have taken their toll.
I don't believe there has been a single, major municipal fiber deployment that hasn't be fought tooth and nail by the incumbent. That city in Louisiana, has been harassed and sued for over a year by the incumbent (or a local citizen apparently backed by the incumbent), so that deployment was delayed a year or more because of incumbent resistance.
unfortunately, even if the incumbents don't think your business is profitable and refuse to serve you, they mobilize at the first sign of potential competition and do their best thru FUD in the press and mailings and in law suits, if necessary, to stop it. They may not want your business now, but if they might want it in the future, they don't want competition - they will give you the service they want to give you on the their schedule. If you don't like it and try to do something about it, they attack.
broadband in this county is not an open business - it belongs to the incumbents and nobody else is allowed to play if they can stop it. | |
|  |  openbox9
join:2004-01-26 Alexandria, VA
·AT&T Southeast
| Re: missed opportunity or lost cause? said by nasadude :That city in Louisiana, has been harassed and sued for over a year by the incumbent (or a local citizen apparently backed by the incumbent), so that deployment was delayed a year or more because of incumbent resistance. Lafayette is next in the municipal ISP spotlight. If Lafayette rolls into problems similar to that of UTOPIA, you can bet it will become very challenging for municipalities to convince their citizens that paying higher taxes for a connection to the Internet is a good thing. | |
|  |  |  Xure
join:2003-11-14 Beverly Hills, CA
1 edit | So what is their problem? So what is the problem here?
Two things - subscription rate, which is probably related to the propaganda and FUD that incumbents are spreading.
The last is - project costs more than planned. Hahah! What a joke, anybody who has ever worked in the real world of business or government knows that 95% of "estimates" are undeestimated.
Some on, when was the last time any entity guessed right on the cost of a project????
It is really pathetic to try and put this onto some "government is bad" excuse. Try living in the real world for a minute. | |
|  |  openbox9
join:2004-01-26 Alexandria, VA
·AT&T Southeast
| Re: So what is their problem? said by Xure :anybody who has ever worked in the real world of business or government knows that 95% of "estimates" are undeestimated. Some on, when was the last time any entity guessed right on the cost of a project???? If I'm comparing government's project management and budgetary prowess against commercial industry's ability to plan and execute efficiently, I'll take commercial industry any day of the week. Government isn't going to go broke...and they now that. Commercial industry OTOH knows exactly what they can and can't afford and will hold to their plans much more than government, which can continue to throw money at the problem even if it doesn't make fiscal sense. | |
|   JesseHarris
@qqest.com
from: JTRockville 
| Some corrections if I may You've missed a few vital points and have confused a few separate issues.
For starters, the 18-month delay was due to a lawsuit from Qwest that halted construction. Qwest was attempting to assert ownership over utility poles owned by Pacificorp, the power company, and ultimately lost that suit but not before causing UTOPIA to expend a lot of resources on legal costs. Not satisfied with that outcome, Qwest then resorted to illegally delaying and blocking access to poles anyway and UTOPIA has chosen to work around those obstructions as opposed to embroil itself in another expensive lawsuit.
The RUS money is a fiasco caused by federal incompetence. The RUS approved a loan for $67M and started authorizing UTOPIA to perform the work under the loan. The problem is that the program is designed to reimburse the network for costs and the RUS approved construction costs that they later didn't reimburse for, effectively forcing UTOPIA to expend bond money intended for other construction. Had the RUS followed through appropriately, UTOPIA would have finished the network in all RUS cities by the end of last year and have passed about 68,000 homes by the end of last year with a balance of $34M to continue construction in Phase I cities.
I'm personally amazed that this team has been able to get as far as they have without calling in tax money. The re-bonding, which looking likely to be approved by all but Payson, will allow UTOPIA to reach the 68K homes passed mark and start adding up to 20 new providers to the network. Opponents seem to be preaching a mantra of "if at first you don't succeed, you're a failure." That short-sighted thinking has, thankfully, not been shared by the cities. | |
|   Paul8777
@tac.net
| Jesse is right Jesse is right. My city is one of those that saw construction commence but can't hook up because of interconnects that are not complete due to the RUS fiasco. If you count serviceable addresses, and not just those that have seen fiber or conduit placed but can't hook up yet because of incomplete interconnect, UTOPIA's take rate is about 27%. Not bad for all the problems it has had. Jesse only mentioned one of the five points of Qwest's lawsuit. UTOPIA won on all five points, with prejudice, but winning the lawsuit wasn't the point for Qwest, it was delay. | |
|  |   a333 A hot cup of integrals please
join:2007-06-12 Rego Park, NY
·Cingular Wireless
·Verizon Online DSL
| RE; FiOS vs Utopia: Let's talk numbers... Funny how FiOS take-up rates are about 25%, yet investors rave about it, yet when it comes to a government project, people call it utter failure, despite approximately 17% adoption rate. And that's in a playing field where incumbents have been trying to do everything possible to pull this project down to its knees. (shakes head) | |
|   I_Want_Fiber
@sprintbbd.net
| Misunderstanding of bonds
From what I've read, no tax money has ever been spent. The bonds are used as collateral to obtain loans from banks, and that money is used for construction. Utopia's revenues are used to pay the loan, and no loan payment has ever been missed.
As for infrastructure profitability, I hope Utopia never becomes profitable, because that means they aren't spending enough money on improving the network. Consider the interstate freeway system. No corporation would have built such a network of roads on its own, but thanks to major roads like I-15 that run from Mexico to Canada, it's possible to ship goods via ground from California to the mountain west in two days, and interstate commerce is booming as a result. Utopia is a similar concept.
Die-hard capitalists seem to think that any project that isn't benefiting someone financially to the exclusion of others is evil and/or socialist. | |
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