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Mozilla Considering Opt-In Browsing Tracking
In order to create more accurate website popularity reports...

According to Techcrunch, the folks at Mozilla are considering implementing a system that tracks user browsing. At the moment, your online activity is tracked in three ways: software installed on user PCs (Alexa, for example); data taken from websites; and ISPs selling user data (something they don't like to talk about). None are particularly reliable, insists Silicon Valley ringmaster Mike Arrington:

quote:
None of these services are particularly accurate (as can be seen by the fact that they almost always disagree with eachother). The problem is simply gathering enough data from enough users to be able to draw a picture-perfect image of actual Internet usage.
Mozilla's project, which technically doesn't even have a name yet, would ask the software's 170-million strong user base if they wanted to opt-in to user tracking. Opt-in being the key (and all too uncommon) phrase. Of course there's the problem that Firefox user interests may not represent the general public accurately.

I'm also not sure where Mike gets the idea that direct data straight from an ISP's artery is all that unreliable. Honestly, Mozilla's approach doesn't strike me as any more reliable than existing methods but hey, it would make Mozilla more money, and isn't that why we're all on this planet?
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zed2608
Premium Member
join:2007-09-30
Cleveland, TN

zed2608

Premium Member

bad idea

they already make millions from google they dont need any more
EPS4
join:2008-02-13
Hingham, MA

EPS4

Member

Re: bad idea

They probably want a revenue source separate from Google- who knows if Google will decide one day it wants a "Google Browser"?
Warez_Zealot
join:2006-04-19
Vancouver

Warez_Zealot to zed2608

Member

to zed2608
yeah, very bad idea.. I'm sure the opt in will be like those apps that try to slide in a Google/yahoo tool bar during install. You won't catch it if you are a person who clicks next repeatedly until install completes.. Damn, now I'll have to change to Opera....

R4M0N
Brazilian Soccer Ownz Joo
join:2000-10-04
Glen Allen, VA

R4M0N

Member

Re: bad idea

said by Warez_Zealot:

yeah, very bad idea.. I'm sure the opt in will be like those apps that try to slide in a Google/yahoo tool bar during install. You won't catch it if you are a person who clicks next repeatedly until install completes.. Damn, now I'll have to change to Opera....
Wait... so you want them to code the install procedure like Vista does when you want to change something?

- You clicked Next. Are you sure?
- You clicked you're sure. Are you sure?

The google toolbar install is on its own screen with the user having to actively click next before moving to the next one. You can take a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. At some point, the responsibility has to be in the user's hands.

Anon1111
@comcast.net

Anon1111

Anon

Re: bad idea

If it's a true opt-in, then you would have to opt-in (click the check box).

R4M0N
Brazilian Soccer Ownz Joo
join:2000-10-04
Glen Allen, VA

R4M0N

Member

Re: bad idea

said by Anon1111 :

If it's a true opt-in, then you would have to opt-in (click the check box).
Who says it won't be?

I wasn't saying the Google toolbar was a true opt-in. I was just giving an example of how some users bring it on themselves by not doing their job.
dualsub2006
join:2007-07-18
Newport, KY

dualsub2006 to zed2608

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to zed2608
The Google deal ends soon. This fall or next, I don't remember. There has been no word on Google renewing the deal. About 95% of their income was from their search deal with Google.

They will have to do something long term to survive. They have a lot of cash on hand, but it will only get them so far. I hope that Google will renew their agreement with them.

dvd536
as Mr. Pink as they come
Premium Member
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ

dvd536 to zed2608

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to zed2608
said by zed2608:

they already make millions from google they dont need any more
Not from me they don't. mozilla only gets kickbacks if you use the google dropdown which i DON'T USE!
Expand your moderator at work
soccerguy9
join:2004-06-28
Seattle, WA

soccerguy9 to zed2608

Member

to zed2608
So much for Mozilla being different.

james16
join:2001-02-26

james16

Member

Re: bad idea

Damn right! How dare they try to make money?!

tempnexus
Premium Member
join:1999-08-11
Boston, MA

tempnexus

Premium Member

go for it

I think they should do it and kill any support they had gained over the past few years. I say go for it and die a lonely death.
EPS4
join:2008-02-13
Hingham, MA

EPS4

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Re: go for it

If it's optional and not a default setting, why would anyone care?

TamaraB
Question The Current Paradigm
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TamaraB

Premium Member

Re: go for it

said by EPS4:

If it's optional ...
Because upon newfound money, optional morphs into opt-out, then it becomes a permanent fixture. The frog always gets boiled slowly.

Bob
EPS4
join:2008-02-13
Hingham, MA

EPS4

Member

Re: go for it

Well I'd have a bit more faith in Mozilla since it's not a publicly traded company, and the over-arching holding entity is a non-profit... though I suppose that could easily change very quickly.

tempnexus
Premium Member
join:1999-08-11
Boston, MA

2 edits

1 recommendation

tempnexus to TamaraB

Premium Member

to TamaraB
said by TamaraB:

said by EPS4:

If it's optional ...
Because upon newfound money, optional morphs into opt-out, then it becomes a permanent fixture. The frog always gets boiled slowly.

Bob
Exactly!

Now that they gained a few percent user base they are turning into MS. Goes to show that no matter what, any company will turn into MS GIANT LIKE when given enough support.
And no, EPS have no faith in companies when money is in the picture.
Rule #1) When money is involved who cares about the consumer.

Now if their support user base dramatically drops after they implement it then they can easily copout by saying: "Oh it was on trial basis only" wait a few years and try again.
If the user base doesn't drop then HELLO perma Opt-In.
lvlorpheus
join:2008-02-17
Springdale, AR

lvlorpheus

Member

Re: go for it

Ahhh, come on this is Firefox, someone will write the most popular add-on ever. Perma Opt-Out for Firefox.

cork1958
Cork
Premium Member
join:2000-02-26

1 edit

cork1958 to tempnexus

Premium Member

to tempnexus
said by tempnexus:
said by TamaraB:
said by EPS4:

If it's optional ...
Because upon newfound money, optional morphs into opt-out, then it becomes a permanent fixture. The frog always gets boiled slowly.

Bob
Exactly!

Now that they gained a few percent user base they are turning into MS. Goes to show that no matter what, any company will turn into MS GIANT LIKE when given enough support.
And no, EPS have no faith in companies when money is in the picture.
Rule #1) When money is involved who cares about the consumer.

Now if their support user base dramatically drops after they implement it then they can easily copout by saying: "Oh it was on trial basis only" wait a few years and try again.
If the user base doesn't drop then HELLO perma Opt-In.
Nice to see all you fan boys FINALLY seeing the light. Never have liked Firefox and don't particularly care for Google either. Neither of them have ever been or ever will be the "cats a**!"
openbox9
Premium Member
join:2004-01-26
71144

openbox9 to TamaraB

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to TamaraB
Not that what you're suggesting is likely to happen, but if it did, you would see the source code fork and new projects pop up without the "option".

TamaraB
Question The Current Paradigm
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TamaraB

Premium Member

Re: go for it

said by openbox9:

Not that what you're suggesting is likely to happen...
It ALL depends on how much money was involved. If the Firefox "model" of tracking becomes a financial success for marketers, then ANYTHING is possible. According to the Original Article:
... but it would make Mozilla more money, and isn't that why we're all on this planet?
Windowz took this frog-boiling approach. When I used DOS, this was never an issue, nor was it in Windows 3.1. The entire frog-boil industry of spying and tracking was begun slowly, and it grew to the point where none interested in privacy, could ever use M$ products again.

Everything which turns a "profit" eventually turns corrupt! The term "Non-Profit" is really a misnomer. It refers to where the profits go, not to the actual making of profit itself. One of the richest, biggest, and most powerful "non-profit" on the planet is the Catholic Church.

IMHO, this would be Firefox's first step towards corruption, and ruin. Use your Calculus training, and stretch the limits of Firefox's "Money-function" to the limits, and see where it can lead.

Bob
openbox9
Premium Member
join:2004-01-26
71144

openbox9

Premium Member

Re: go for it

said by TamaraB:

According to the Original Article:
... but it would make Mozilla more money, and isn't that why we're all on this planet?
That's Karl's commentary.
said by TamaraB:

IMHO, this would be Firefox's first step towards corruption, and ruin.
As I've mentioned, the code will fork well before this unlikely outcome. Gotta love freely available source code

TamaraB
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TamaraB

Premium Member

Re: go for it

said by openbox9:

... Gotta love freely available source code
I do! And for literally decades I have been using such for all my computer needs. I currently run Net/FreeBSD on all my computers, from my laptop, to my servers. And, yes 'it's been "free", just like ALL "information" needs to be in a "free" society. But what does "free" mean? Does it ONLY refer to free in a monetary sense? Could not other "costs" make it not free? Costs associated with SPAM, voracious advertising, phishes, hacks.... are all real "costs". Costs associated with the non-free community exclusively! I don't want to see this type of cost, appended to "open source".

It appears to me, that this Firefox "experiment" is a probe into that possibility. Exclusively define "free" (in an open-source sense) as exclusively "monetarily free", and let the market (us) pay in another way. Freedom is then essentially lost.

Bob
openbox9
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join:2004-01-26
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openbox9

Premium Member

Re: go for it

"Free" software is about freedom, not money, hence the open availability of source code and licenses minimal restrictions regarding what you're allowed to do with the code and/or executables. Once again, if some open source projects choose to take the projects in a direction that you don't like, you have the freedom to take the code and do what you want....at least in accordance with the applicable licenses.
B04
Premium Member
join:2000-10-28

B04 to TamaraB

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to TamaraB
said by TamaraB:

IMHO, this would be Firefox's first step towards corruption, and ruin. Use your Calculus training, and stretch the limits of Firefox's "Money-function" to the limits, and see where it can lead.
Agreed with everything you said EXCEPT that it should read "Firefox's latest step towards corruption".

People have been living with Firefox's silent embedded and money-generating Google tracking and its limiting EULA for years already. It's a big reason I use Seamonkey instead. See also their dismissive behavior toward the Mozilla suite, toward Thunderbird, and toward forks and distribution projects.

MoFoCo is not your friend. They like your money.

-- B

sivran
Vive Vivaldi
Premium Member
join:2003-09-15
Irving, TX

sivran

Premium Member

Re: go for it

I confess. I've been using Opera lately.
B04
Premium Member
join:2000-10-28

B04

Premium Member

Re: go for it

Holy crap!

You're kidding. Hang your scaly head in shame.

I think I'd use the Fireweasel before Opera, based only on its reputation for incompatibility (never mind the closed source part).

Is it because Opera's lighter and faster than the Monkey, or because of a general distaste for the MoFoCoDojo?

-- B
19579823 (banned)
An Awesome Dude
join:2003-08-04

19579823 (banned) to tempnexus

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to tempnexus
quote:
I think they should do it and kill any support they had gained over the past few years. I say go for it and die a lonely death.
They must be teaming up with Microsoft to keep track of what people are doing.......

Unreal......

Titus
Mr Gradenko
join:2004-06-26

1 recommendation

Titus

Member

This is fun stuff

I keep an old machine running with a script that refreshes a webpage image of a gaping bunghole every 30 seconds.

Odd thing, I keep getting Preparation-H ads on pages. Hmm ...
--

newview
Ex .. Ex .. Exactly
Premium Member
join:2001-10-01
Parsonsburg, MD

newview

Premium Member

Just for the record . . .

I hereby opt-out . . . forever.

Spiral5
No Easy Way To Be Free.
Premium Member
join:2003-03-04
Baltimore, MD

Spiral5

Premium Member

I need an incentive

I'll opt-in if they send me an Amazon $25 coupon every month.

•••

FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

FFH5

Premium Member

Opt-in choice means few will use it devaluing data collected

I suspect few will choose to opt-in to this collection of their browsing habits. And that makes the data they collect suspect, because those who opt-in will NOT be the typical user advertisers want to target.
Markus4
join:2005-05-27
Middlesboro, KY

Markus4

Member

I wouldn't opt in, but...

...I don't have the same apparent hatred of the accumulation of wealth that so many here seem to have. It seems like anything a company does, even as innocuous as this opt-in tracking, sends many posters into ridiculous anti-capitalist and greedy corporations rants.

•••••••••••••

sbrook
Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa

sbrook

Mod

Track this!

It's not Mozilla that I would fear in this ... it's the people to whom they sell the information. One of the biggest fears we should have on the internet is the corporate advertising companies ... It's one thing to take 8 minutes out of every half hour of television for in your face advertising, but internet ads are insidious and we have negligible control over them.

••••

Dogfather
Premium Member
join:2007-12-26
Laguna Hills, CA

Dogfather

Premium Member

I'd opt in

Why not?

TamaraB
Question The Current Paradigm
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TamaraB

Premium Member

Re: I'd opt in

said by Dogfather:

Why not?
Well then, why would you use Firefox over IE? I mean, if you don't mind being tracked and your Internet use being "monetized", why not just stay with M$ IE?

Bob

Dogfather
Premium Member
join:2007-12-26
Laguna Hills, CA

1 edit

Dogfather

Premium Member

Re: I'd opt in

How does IE track internet use?

Where does it say that the Mozilla Foundation would get income from this project?

And IF they did, what is wrong with the Mozilla Foundation getting a few bucks?

Why not opt in?

R4M0N
Brazilian Soccer Ownz Joo
join:2000-10-04
Glen Allen, VA

R4M0N

Member

I'd opt in too

Keeping track of a project like Firefox is not cheap... OR we could NOT support it and let MS dictate how browsers should work.
b10010011
Whats a Posting tag?
join:2004-09-07
united state

b10010011

Member

technically doesn't even have a name yet

How about Spyzilla or Foxtracks or Foxtrax!?

SilverSurfer1
join:2007-08-19

SilverSurfer1

Member

Re: technically doesn't even have a name yet

said by b10010011:

How about Spyzilla or Foxtracks or Foxtrax!?


Those are catchy, but I think FuckYouPayMeZilla is more appropriate.
DMNTD
join:2002-10-19
Austin, TX

DMNTD

Member

opting-out

Its simple....I don't want a little hovering ball to FOLLOW me wherever I go if I walk or drive my car!. This is the same thing...but I will watch where it goes...if nothing else they need to just do what the fake firefox sites have been doing and just demand money for the browser or support for the browser.

gattaca
Premium Member
join:2003-05-28
USA

gattaca

Premium Member

I Would Opt In

I don't understand how people here are assuming the right to free, supported and maintained software like Firefox. Of course they need some revenue in order to keep the operation afloat. If you don't like it:
(1) opt-out
(2) use a forked project (K-Meleon, Camino, Seamonkey...)
(3) BUY (gasp!) a product that doesn't need to find alternative sources of revenue (Opera)
(4) stat worrying about much bigger issues than anonymous usage data. I don't see how this is any worse than the "threat" posed by cookies.
Mele20
Premium Member
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI

Mele20

Premium Member

Re: I Would Opt In

said by gattaca:

I don't understand how people here are assuming the right to free, supported and maintained software like Firefox. Of course they need some revenue in order to keep the operation afloat. If you don't like it:
(1) opt-out
(2) use a forked project (K-Meleon, Camino, Seamonkey...)
(3) BUY (gasp!) a product that doesn't need to find alternative sources of revenue (Opera)
(4) stat worrying about much bigger issues than anonymous usage data. I don't see how this is any worse than the "threat" posed by cookies.
1. It is supposed to be opt-IN.
2. They will do with those also.
3. I'd be happy to buy Fx to stop this why wouldn't you?
4. Ha! I bet you have no idea what your browser is really doing regarding cookies. Very soon you will be able to test your browsers and you'll learn about Fx third party cookie leakage. Further who said anything about "anonymous"? You know what Charter has just done, well, this is very similar (snooping by your browser instead of by your ISP) and it is not anonymous.

yuutomo
The Wonder Kitter
Premium Member
join:2001-08-27
Seeley Lake, MT

yuutomo

Premium Member

Extremely Bad Idea and Move..

Mozzila Foundation better pull their collective heads out of their a$$e$ and remember what Mozilla was founded for, and what Firefox was created for.

they seem to have forgotten those 2 things.

Doctor Four
My other vehicle is a TARDIS
Premium Member
join:2000-09-05
Dallas, TX

Doctor Four

Premium Member

This is easily defeated by an existing Firefox extension

And that is Track-Me-Not. Although it only sends bogus
search queries to the four major search engines (Google,
AOL, Yahoo, and Microsoft). If this system becomes opt
out like some here think could happen, expect the URL
where such tracking results are sent to be added to Track
Me Not's coverage.

likitysplit
join:2008-01-14
Flagstaff, AZ

likitysplit

Member

Ancient News

Hi team! I have been jousting with Mozilla/FF forever since it was obvious FF was collecting data on many levels with a multitude of information. I was banned from Mozillazine numerous times and they even tried to re-program the sign-in process to keep me out. I then, like others, learned how to "adjust" FF(iceweasel, since I'm on sidux), to remove any links to the outside world. I won't bore you with the particulars since most don't seem to care. The fact that they now are overtly saying they will keep track of what they have always done is not surprising. They have been emboldened by the lack of consumer awareness. For the truly paranoid there is JonDoFox. As has been mentioned already, most of the data gathered can be wildly inaccurate unless there is one person only, using one computer only, on one dialup line only, etc. So if you truly don't care, make sure you insert a unique IP address and cookies whenever you use a computer anywhere. I'm actually working on it! I guess it's the counter-measures training I had in the military. You know, my awesomely armed jet looks like a wandering seagull on radar.

mod_wastrel
anonome
join:2008-03-28

mod_wastrel

Member

180 degree point of view

For the 90+% who didn't actually read the article, the project is about website tracking, not user tracking, aka web analytics.

POB
Res Firma Mitescere Nescit
Premium Member
join:2003-02-13
Stepford, CA

POB

Premium Member

Re: 180 degree point of view

said by mod_wastrel:

For the 90+% who didn't actually read the article, the project is about website tracking, not user tracking, aka web analytics.
No difference in my mind whatsoever.

mod_wastrel
anonome
join:2008-03-28

1 recommendation

mod_wastrel

Member

Re: 180 degree point of view

It's the difference between (a) knowing that between 1:00pm and 2:00pm there were 5,000 visitors to SomeWebSite.com and (b) knowing that between 1:00pm and 2:00pm some user visited these** 25 sites. It is different. But, that's why it's opt-in only--don't wanta, don't haveta. This data is currently being collected right now anyway by more than a few organizations, just not very reliably; your ISP, however, knows every site that you visit. There is no privacy on the Internet.

**whatever "these" happen to be.
jfmezei
Premium Member
join:2007-01-03
Pointe-Claire, QC

jfmezei

Premium Member

Money needs beg control needs

Mozilla is becoming like politicians. They need money to survive, and those who provide the money tend to set priorities for Mozilla.

Google got some nasty defaults set on firefox (automatic redirect to google search for whatever illegal url you typed). You need to delve deep into the forefox advance config to disable that.

And now, they are probably getting money from some net advertising firm to develop that user tracking software.

Why should I download a version of Firefox where I'll have to spend hours trying to find the damned option to make sure it remains turned off and is never covertly turned on becauise I visited some web site with funky dangerous javascript ?

They need to focus in cleaning up the code, plugging memory leaks isntead of adding mroe and more bloatware that slows the browser down.

Thug21
Just Chillin'
Premium Member
join:2005-08-21

Thug21

Premium Member

Re: Money needs beg control needs

If they add such junk, I doubt I'll keep using or recommending Firefox. It's that simple.

Maxo
Your tax dollars at work.
Premium Member
join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL

Maxo

Premium Member

Already exists some

There is a FF3 extension that does this already.

B_DuB
NOT a city boy
join:2007-05-10
Cleveland, TX

B_DuB

Member

Money,Money,Money!!!

but hey, it would make Mozilla more money, and isn't that why we're all on this planet for

?

I left the Question mark for the Idiot !!

No it's not.When Money is Your life you mind as well get in a cave and wait for day break for you surely will not see the light.

Let's all crave money and forget ???............
You figure it out !

No....Lets get it right, Supply a good service and All the right things will happen and for All the right reason's..Period
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