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story category Baby Bell Neglect of Vanilla DSL Could Spell Trouble
Cable Vs. DSL: Episode 71
(old news - 11:09AM Wednesday May 14 2008)
tags: competition · business · bandwidth · cable · stats · Verizon Online DSL
If you folks recall, many analysts predicted the telcos would be leading the cable industry in overall broadband adoption totals by now, but they aren't. A report (pdf) by Information Gatekeepers argues that the longer install times of U-Verse and FiOS and a neglect of traditional DSL offerings are having a negative impact on both telcos. Verizon added just 19,000 DSL customers last quarter and 264,000 total, the lowest total since 2003:
Click for full size
They are hitting records every quarter for FiOS installs, but their xDSL installs are going to nearly zero. The total of the two is much less than they were achieving with just xDSL.
Why does that matter? If the total number of subscribers is lower, they have a harder time offsetting the massive exodus of landline customers. If both AT&T and Verizon are neglecting traditional DSL in cable markets, they're losing customers in an industry that's now about locking customers into long term multi-year contracts.
Ultimately, this is going to result in nonrecoverable losses to the cable companies and a very slow growth of data revenues – both of which we are seeing already.
I'd imagine that Verizon's new focus on urban FiOS should speed things up. I've mentioned this before, but ironically the very local franchise rules the baby bells lobbied to disable could come back to bite them. Under the old system, cable was often forced to deploy broadband to rural communities. Under the new system, the telcos can cherry-pick next-gen deployment locations. But if they intend to focus primarily on major markets and largely neglect massive swaths of their DSL networks, that gives cable a major competitive edge in a lot of towns and cities.

Related:
  1. Symmetrical FiOS Expansion Official
  2. Thursday Morning Links
  3. Thursday Evening Links
  4. Cox Unveils New 25Mbps Speed Tier
  5. Comcast Targets Frontier/Verizon Customers
  6. Qwest Keeps Pretending Speed Doesn't Matter
  7. Customer Battles Time Warner Overages
  8. Verizon: Cut Your Landline To Save Money
Forums » Baby Bell Neglect of Vanilla DSL Could Spell Trouble
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Rob
In Deo speramus, God Bless the USA
Premium
join:2001-08-25
Kendall, FL

Year 2008 and I can only get 1.5/256 from DSL...

It's 2008 and I'm still only able to get 1.5/256 from AT&T, whereas Comcast offers 8/768 + powerboost.

ib50MbSoon
Formerly TwoKDialup
Premium
join:2002-06-07
Coloma, MI

Re: Year 2008 and I can only get 1.5/256 from DSL...

said by Rob See Profile :

It's 2008 and I'm still only able to get 1.5/256 from AT&T, whereas Comcast offers 8/768 + powerboost.
All I can get from the mighty telco is their femtoband® dialup product.
--
Comcast has spoiled me rotten!
notwrth10

join:2007-03-03
1001EB

Re: Year 2008 and I can only get 1.5/256 from DSL...

Yea, I guess the comcastic cabinet is just so attractive.




Hey I heard recently a couple of employees tried installing it recently for a 3 year old but it didn't work out as well.

Anyone got a link?
bjbrock

join:2002-10-28
Mcalester, OK
8/768 IF it is a protocol they approve of.

Rob
In Deo speramus, God Bless the USA
Premium
join:2001-08-25
Kendall, FL
·Comcast

Re: Year 2008 and I can only get 1.5/256 from DSL...

said by bjbrock See Profile :

8/768 IF it is a protocol they approve of.
Which is pretty much every protocol except "one". Still 100x better than AT&T.

en102
Canadian, eh?

join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA
·RoadRunner Cable
·DSL EXTREME

Re: Year 2008 and I can only get 1.5/256 from DSL...

I can get ADSL from AT&T at 1500/384kbps
ADSL from DSL-Extreme at 3008/512kbps (AT&T claims that I've moved 2000' from their CO )

I can get Uverse from 1.5/1Mbps to 10Mbps/1.5Mbps... as long as I either order TV or purchase business.

I can get TWC HSI (TWC is supposedly redoing their fiber in my area) - good for 10Mbps/1Mbps.
--
Canada = Hollywood North

CylonRed
Premium,MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County

Re: Year 2008 and I can only get 1.5/256 from DSL...

Highly doubtful that you would be able to get DSL Extreme at those speed if AT&T can't provide it. Any CLEC that DSL Extreme uses will have to go thru the same CO as AT&T.

en102
Canadian, eh?

join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA
·RoadRunner Cable
·DSL EXTREME

Re: Year 2008 and I can only get 1.5/256 from DSL...

Here's the proof


--
Canada = Hollywood North
NormanS
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
·Pacific Bell - SBC

But AT&T doesn't provision the CLEC cards in the DSLAM. AT&T has very conservative distance restrictions; partly to offset the lower prices they were charging. Fewer service calls on the lines, less money expended in support costs.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum

djrobx

join:2000-05-31
Valencia, CA
·PHONE POWER
·AT&T U-Verse
·AT&T CallVantage
·Time Warner VOIP
·RoadRunner Cable


1 edit
said by CylonRed See Profile :

Highly doubtful that you would be able to get DSL Extreme at those speed if AT&T can't provide it. Any CLEC that DSL Extreme uses will have to go thru the same CO as AT&T.
Sort of ... what you're missing is that he qualified for 3m service while on DSLExtreme via AT&T. He then had a number of service calls due to poor quality lines (sprinkler systems turn on, sync goes out). He ended up having to deal with lower sync rates to keep stable service. Someone probably "adjusted" the distances in the databases to prevent other new customers in his area from having intermittent service (read: they dont want those expensive support truck rolls).

Then AT&T came in and reconditioned the lines for U-Verse. Now he finally has a good quality line that's stable at 3m, but AT&T still has him tagged as not qualifying for 3m service. So if he were to cancel his DSLX line he probably cannot re-order 3m without escalating the issue.
NormanS
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
·Pacific Bell - SBC

said by Rob See Profile :

Still 100x better than AT&T.
I just love hyperbole...

(8/1.5=5.33333333)
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum

Rob
In Deo speramus, God Bless the USA
Premium
join:2001-08-25
Kendall, FL
·Comcast

Re: Year 2008 and I can only get 1.5/256 from DSL...

said by NormanS See Profile :

said by Rob See Profile :

Still 100x better than AT&T.
I just love hyperbole...

(8/1.5=5.33333333)
Didn't say faster, I said better.
NormanS
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
·Pacific Bell - SBC

Re: Year 2008 and I can only get 1.5/256 from DSL...

said by Rob See Profile :

Didn't say faster, I said better.
It is still hyperbole. Comcast interferes with BitTorrent, cuts off user access to their mail servers for modest volumes of outbound SMTP traffic, and a raft of other restrictive TOS issues. Their support is no better, and their price is exorbitant. And you still think that they are better? I think not.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum

Rob
In Deo speramus, God Bless the USA
Premium
join:2001-08-25
Kendall, FL
·Comcast

Re: Year 2008 and I can only get 1.5/256 from DSL...

said by NormanS See Profile :

said by Rob See Profile :

Didn't say faster, I said better.
It is still hyperbole. Comcast interferes with BitTorrent, cuts off user access to their mail servers for modest volumes of outbound SMTP traffic, and a raft of other restrictive TOS issues. Their support is no better, and their price is exorbitant. And you still think that they are better? I think not.
I haven't had any problems with outbound SMTP traffic and haven't had any problems with their restrictive TOS either. My bittorrent problems are not even that much of a problem since I don't even use bittorrent.

But you can keep being a telco apologist.
NormanS
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
·Pacific Bell - SBC

Re: Year 2008 and I can only get 1.5/256 from DSL...

said by Rob See Profile :

But you can keep being a telco apologist.
And you a cableco apologist. Same difference.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum

Rob
In Deo speramus, God Bless the USA
Premium
join:2001-08-25
Kendall, FL
·Comcast

Re: Year 2008 and I can only get 1.5/256 from DSL...

said by NormanS See Profile :

said by Rob See Profile :

But you can keep being a telco apologist.
And you a cableco apologist. Same difference.
Big difference. I actually have used AT&T (formerly BellSouth) and currently use Comcast. I have yet to see you even use Comcast.
NormanS
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
·Pacific Bell - SBC

Re: Year 2008 and I can only get 1.5/256 from DSL...

said by Rob See Profile :

Big difference. I actually have used AT&T (formerly BellSouth) and currently use Comcast. I have yet to see you even use Comcast.
I have downloaded fansubbed anime on my sister's Comcast connection, and done some other work. 6M doesn't seem all that great. You can't download any faster than the other end can upload; most of my downloads moved about as fast on cable as on 3Mb DSL.

And I not about to spend twice as much for cable as DSL costs just to get a little extra speed that I won't be using; or to have the cable fanbois telling me I am wrong to run a server.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum
Crookshanks

join:2008-02-04
Endicott, NY

Re: Year 2008 and I can only get 1.5/256 from DSL...

said by NormanS See Profile :

You can't download any faster than the other end can upload; most of my downloads moved about as fast on cable as on 3Mb DSL.
Then that's a problem with Comcast because I had no problem pegging my Roadrunner Turbo connection (8MBits) when I had it. A few sites couldn't manage to max it out but the overwhelming majority of large downloads could. Well seeded bittorrents could. A handful of times I saw what appeared to be throttling and/or capacity issues but the bulk of the time I had no problems achieving full speed.

Don't get me wrong -- I'll take my 3.0/768 DSL over 8.0/512 cable -- DSL (for me, YMMV) seems more stable and I'd rather have the upload bandwidth -- but I don't see how you can dismiss that download bandwidth either. It came in handy.
NormanS
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
·Pacific Bell - SBC


1 edit

Re: Year 2008 and I can only get 1.5/256 from DSL...

said by Crookshanks See Profile :

said by NormanS See Profile :

You can't download any faster than the other end can upload; most of my downloads moved about as fast on cable as on 3Mb DSL.
Then that's a problem with Comcast because I had no problem pegging my Roadrunner Turbo connection (8MBits) when I had it.
No. It was a problem with the torrents. Some of the anime shows I grab are not highly popular, and don't have well-seeded trackers. You can't pull more data than the other end will push. Period. I don't see paying for download speed I won't be able to use because the sources can't fill the pipe.

BTW, just to be sure it was the trackers, and not the ISP, I downloaded a Knoppix ISO image while there. That pegged my sister's download capacity. But how often does one need to download an OS ISO image? Slower is cheaper; and, for my budget, and needs, good enough.

--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum

blowhard

@bellsouth.com
year 2008 and i can't get cable tv but can get 6 meg dsl....see, i can do it too!

jimbo48

join:2000-11-17
Hayward, CA
·AT&T DSL Service
·EarthLink

Yep same story here except I can't even get 8.0/768 from comcast. I'm limited to 6.0/384 plus powerboost (with no claim to performance). Comcast has a city monopoly so they won't even offer the 16/1 that so many other areas offer because there is NO competition. Verizon AT&T and all the other ISP providers, brokers etc just keep charging the market rate for what they loosely call high Speed internet.1.5/256.
Some day I hope to see real HSI but for now I'm relegated to the scrapings from the barrel for HSI at an affordable price.
majortom1029

join:2006-10-19
Lindenhurst, NY

not fios everywhere

What is prob going to happen is that verizon is not keeping its dsl network up. They also dont plan on rolling fios out everywhere so whereever cable is and fios wont be they will lose customers but gain customeers in fios areas.

Eventually it will all even out . Cables networks will even out and get better because there will be less users on it.

So in the end everything will even out .Not one company will have a big users base over the other.
jc100

join:2002-04-10

Re: not fios everywhere

Even out in what 2020 when the U.S. sees fios nationally and everywhere else in the world is sitting pretty on 10 gigabit lines while the U.S. is seeing its first 50/30 standard?

LiamJunket
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Ocean City, NJ
·Comcast

Re: not fios everywhere

said by jc100 See Profile :

Even out in what 2020 when the U.S. sees fios nationally and everywhere else in the world is sitting pretty on 10 gigabit lines while the U.S. is seeing its first 50/30 standard?
Fios, at least the Verizon version, is not going to be national - ever.
Here is where they have wired access in the US and where they MIGHT install Fios:


The purple are Verizon wired territories. And not all the states shown have Verizon wired throughout the state. See this link to see each state and where Verizon has WIRED coverage:
»www22.verizon.com/wholesale/solu···inemap/#
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page

Jodokast96
R.I.P Bassman442
Premium
join:2005-11-23
Erial, NJ

Re: not fios everywhere

And you can knock off Maine, Vermont, and New Hampshire since they just sold those areas to Farpoint.

LiamJunket
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Ocean City, NJ
·Comcast

Re: not fios everywhere

said by Jodokast96 See Profile :

And you can knock off Maine, Vermont, and New Hampshire since they just sold those areas to Farpoint.
Yes, the above map doesn't reflect those recent changes yet.
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page
Hanko

join:2001-12-28
Eatonville, WA


1 edit

Re: not fios everywhere

The above map reminds me of the FCC's definition of broadband coverage. If there is FIOS in Seattle, then the entire state of Washington must have it.....very misleading since there are huge areas of the state close to Seattle that do not have Verizon.

just my 2 cents!!

en102
Canadian, eh?

join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA
Don't forget, just because they have wireline service in a state, it does not mean they are an ILEC. In many parts of CA/TX, AT&T is the ILEC, which doesn't make it easy for VZ to compete.
--
Canada = Hollywood North

brandon
Some truth included in this post.
Premium
join:2003-03-31
Hurley, MS
·AT&T Southeast
·CableOne
·Packet8

said by LiamJunket See Profile :

Fios, at least the Verizon version, is not going to be national - ever.
You say "never" like Verizon and AT&T aren't going to merge in ten years!
questionable

join:2005-10-18
Phoenix, AZ
They need to remove Arizona completely off that I wouldn't even say they cover 5 percent of Arizona

LiamJunket
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Ocean City, NJ
·Comcast

Re: not fios everywhere

said by questionable See Profile :

They need to remove Arizona completely off that I wouldn't even say they cover 5 percent of Arizona
Yes, they just have 1 little corner of Arizona.



--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page
EPS

join:2008-02-13
Hingham, MA

That map is really a strange way of showing Verizon territories.. Here's another map- it doesn't have the close-in states but is better from a national perspective:
»newscenter.verizon.com/assets/ig···stic.gif

LiamJunket
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Ocean City, NJ
·Comcast

Re: not fios everywhere

said by EPS See Profile :

That map is really a strange way of showing Verizon territories.. Here's another map- it doesn't have the close-in states but is better from a national perspective:
»newscenter.verizon.com/assets/ig···stic.gif
Good map. Both maps show that Fios is NOT a national player or will be as some hope. And I don't think AT&T and Verizon will merge anytime in the foreseeable future.
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page

jimbo48

join:2000-11-17
Hayward, CA
·AT&T DSL Service
·EarthLink


CA wired tariff areas
Here's the real Verizon coverage of CA. Its no wonder the industry is in the shape its in when we are told Ca is covered.

LiamJunket
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Ocean City, NJ
·Comcast

Re: not fios everywhere

said by jimbo48 See Profile :

Here's the real Verizon coverage of CA. Its no wonder the industry is in the shape its in when we are told Ca is covered.
Of course, AT&T is the major ILEC provider in California & not Verizon. The AT&T coverage map would show much wider coverage.
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page
cghh

join:2001-01-15
Milpitas, CA

Re: not fios everywhere

Note that Verizon landline coverage in California does NOT include those little communities of Los Angeles and the San Francisco Bay Area. Verizon is the landline provider in CA in those locations where its predecessor GTE was the provider, which were primarily rural and small town areas. As others have stated, it is ridiculous to equate "has a presence in the state" with "covers the state".

jt425

@comcast.net
comcast already does 50/5 in a few markets

dnoyeB
Ferrous Phallus

join:2000-10-09
Southfield, MI

The evening wont start until all the free-users are gobbled up. So long as the telcos and the cablecos can have seperate user bases, I think they will.

However, I would expect the telcos to be the first to crossover to compete with the cablecos. This wont happen until their landline revenue dries up.
--
dnoyeB
"Then said I, Wisdom [is] better than strength: nevertheless the poor man's wisdom [is] despised, and his words are not heard. " Ecclesiastes 9:16

Matt
Quitting Caffeine - Argh
Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
·North State Commun..

Same Product

I'd argue that it's not the longer install times, but that for the average user, the difference in the two products is imperceptible. People simply don't care whether they have DSL or Cable as they are both about the same price, the initial term pricing offers are about the same, and Myspace is just as fast on their 3Mbps DSL as it is on 10Mbps cable.
MrSpock29

join:2008-02-09
Hammonton, NJ

Analysts....

"If you folks recall, many analysts predicted......"

There is a saying that goes like this:
"In a bull market, you don't need analysts, in a bear market, they will kill you".
"Analysts" also thought Fios was not a good idea, but there are few who feel that way now.

This is why I believe telcos will continue to upgrade, and Verizon will get away from DSL by continuing to deploy FTTH.
axus

join:2001-06-18
Washington, DC
·Verizon Online DSL
·Cox HSI

Heh, I'm one of those 19000

DSL wins on cost, but download speed is lacking. I think the telcos are going to have to compete on service and being customer friendly. They have to do better about repairing problems and offering to new customers.

Cable's weakness is their anti-customer network management policies, I think the DSL providers could make a pitch as being "network neutral" and hurt cable that way.

See 6 replies to this post

Jodokast96
R.I.P Bassman442
Premium
join:2005-11-23
Erial, NJ

Wasn't it...

...just last week where it was posted that the level of broadband penetration is at a level where all new service subscriptions are starting to level off?
dynodb
Premium,VIP
join:2004-04-21
Minneapolis, MN

Re: Wasn't it...

said by Jodokast96 See Profile :

...just last week where it was posted that the level of broadband penetration is at a level where all new service subscriptions are starting to level off?
Shhh... rational posts grounded in reality aren't welcome around here. The only accepted explanation allowed is that it's the fault of the Greedy Big Evil Corporations for not offering 100M/100M to 100% of all households for no more than $30 a month without restrictions.

GDStew

@rr.com

DSL

I have spent over eight years waiting for SW Bell/AT&T to deliver DSL to my home in the city limits of Dallas, TX. I'm still waiting. In the mean time they've spent billions to rise from the ashes to become just like the old AT&T. They also spent tens of millions lobbying to keep their monopoly on the "last mile" which has prevented me from getting DSL from a competing firm. I do get high speed internet from cable (Time Warner) for $57/month. The service is fast, and reliable, but I'd really like a lower cost alternative/backup.

BSD24
Tier 4
Premium
join:2008-04-30
Middleboro, MA
clubs:
·Comcast
·Verizon FIOS
·Verizon Online DSL

Re: DSL

I think everyone forgot that FCC gave ok to Verizon because they are a Telco originated company that they can provide TV service (fios) nationally without a limit. Cable operators are looked at differently, they can't have more than a certain percentage of the CableTV market, so they aren't allowed to go National (coverage to everyone in the USA). Does anyone feel like commenting on how fair the FCC is to the cable operators????

BSD24
Tier 4
Premium
join:2008-04-30
Middleboro, MA
clubs:
·Comcast
·Verizon FIOS
·Verizon Online DSL

FCC Limits Cable Operators but give Telco's No Limits

I think everyone forgot that FCC gave ok to Verizon because they are a Telco originated company that they can provide TV service (fios) nationally without a limit. Cable operators are looked at differently, they can't have more than a certain percentage of the CableTV market, so they aren't allowed to go National (coverage to everyone in the USA). Does anyone feel like commenting on how fair the FCC is to the cable operators????
EPS

join:2008-02-13
Hingham, MA

Re: FCC Limits Cable Operators but give Telco's No Limits

This is outright false- Verizon does have to get franchise agreements, they can't deploy anywhere.

The reason no one's talking about limiting the growth of telco TV providers is because it's still a very small percentage of the TV market. Cable is a much larger percentage.
hottboiinnc
ME

join:2003-10-15
Toledo, OH

Re: FCC Limits Cable Operators but give Telco's No Limits

VZ is only getting franchise agreements in cities where the states do not have State agreements yet. But you can bet on the ones that do VZ will go to the state Level where them and AT$T lobbied at and spent millions.

BSD24
Tier 4
Premium
join:2008-04-30
Middleboro, MA
clubs:
·Comcast
·Verizon FIOS
·Verizon Online DSL


1 edit
said by EPS See Profile :

This is outright false- Verizon does have to get franchise agreements, they can't deploy anywhere.

The reason no one's talking about limiting the growth of telco TV providers is because it's still a very small percentage of the TV market. Cable is a much larger percentage.
EPS - The FCC is giving Verizon immunity and waivers over many things to do with their new Fios. Currently Verizon is trying to get State-Level approval for franchising which Comcast is against. Comcast believes it should be the local governments that approve the franchise agreements not the state. Verizon doesn't want to have to deal with the local governments like Comcast has to. do a little more research before accusing me of stating an obvious fact!

For more information on Keeping it local in Massachusetts visit - »www.keepitlocalma.com/

BSD24
Tier 4
Premium
join:2008-04-30
Middleboro, MA
clubs:
·Comcast
·Verizon FIOS
·Verizon Online DSL

said by EPS See Profile :

This is outright false- Verizon does have to get franchise agreements, they can't deploy anywhere.

The reason no one's talking about limiting the growth of telco TV providers is because it's still a very small percentage of the TV market. Cable is a much larger percentage.
EPS - another thing you don't seem to understand is what I was saying.... FCC is allowing Verizon (as a telco) to not have to abide by the 30% market restriction. Thats what I was talking about, and it is not "outright false"!

iLive4Apple
Hybrid power
Premium
join:2006-07-13
Helena, AL

Beat this

At my house in Oak Grove, Alabama in Western Jefferson County. The Only thing I can get is either, AT&T EDGE, Satellite, and Dial-Up. No Cable TV/HSI or DSL. Haha
--
I get 29 MPG in my Toyota Highlander Hybrid!
iowaboy
Premium
join:2004-02-28
Kalona, IA
·Mediacom

Re: Beat this

I would like to add, Telco with DSL is not always cheaper than cable. Usually it is but the advertised dsl that the telcos say they can hook you up to is limited to certain areas. They do sell a lot slower speed dsl that may be cheaper, same as or higher than cable. My son lives in an area that has 9 companies that sell dsl and the fastest he can get is 256/128. He has tyried all the companies and they all said the same. That is all he can get (only 3 blocks from the co also)and well within the distance from the co. The cost is, which is the cheapest, $48.00 He is going to change to cable 8000/512 for $45.95 as soon as he can get out of his contract. So not all areas have cheap dsl or even cable internet. At least cable prices are about the same no matter where you are but dsl is all pver the board for cost.

prestonlewis
Premium,MVM
join:2003-04-13
Sacramento, CA
·VoiceStick
·Comcast
·Pacific Bell - SBC
·DSL EXTREME
·Vonage
·VoicePulse

DSL a joke

In Northern Sacramento county, DSL by at&t is a joke. 3 COs which don't even come close to serving the hundreds of thousands of people who live here, old brittle noisy lines that can't carry a decent DSL signal even if you are one of the dozen or so people who live close to a CO.

Comcast is king, unfortunately. No competition, no effort by at&t to upgrade their sad old PacBell infrastructure. No choice except to go with Comcast.
Forums » Baby Bell Neglect of Vanilla DSL Could Spell Trouble


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