Congress Now Eyes Embarq's Use Of NebuADInterestingly ignores ISP sale of user clickstream data... 01:10PM Wednesday Jul 16 2008 by Karl Bodetags: legal · business · privacy · EmbarqWhile Charter recently got all the bad PR for their decision to sell your browsing data to NebuAD, they certainly weren't the only ISP tinkering with the technology. Congress now appears to be looking into Embarq's recent NebuAD trial, sending the company a letter asking them precise details about the trial, including how many customers were impacted, in which markets the trial was conducted, and just how those customers were informed. We are writing with respect to a recent test conducted by Embarq to tailor Internet advertising to the web-browsing patterns of individual Embarq subscribers...As you may know, questions have been raised regarding the applicability of privacy protections contained in the Communications Act of 1934, the Cable Act of 1984, the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, and other statutes, to such practices. Of course like many ISPs, Embarq announced the trial by burying it in their privacy policy. Once the press and Congress started hammering Charter, Embarq, like several other ISPs ( Centurytel), acted quickly to distance themselves from their use of the technology. Until just the last few weeks, Embarq's privacy policy still referenced the trial, but has since been scrubbed. This is what their privacy policy used to say: EMBARQ may use information such as the websites you visit or online searches that you conduct to deliver or facilitate the delivery of targeted advertisements. The delivery of these advertisements will be based on anonymous surfing behavior and will not include users' names, email addresses, telephone numbers, or any other Personally Identifiable Information. You may choose to opt out of this preference advertising service. By opting out, you will continue to receive advertisements as normal; but these advertisements will be less relevant and less useful to you. If you would like to opt out, click here. Of course there was no mention that NebuAD's opt-out system only opts you out of receiving personalized ads -- it does not stop your browsing history from being tracked and sold to NebuAD. That flaky opt-out system potentially puts all ISPs who used this system on pretty shaky legal ground, which is why Congress has started poking around. Judging from ISP reactions, it's pretty clear they know they face legal risk. With Congress suddenly so concerned about users being notified before their browsing history is sold, it's interesting they've never investigated the ISP sale of clickstream data. ISPs generally don't comment on that, but it's estimated they make about $5 per user, per month off of the sales. Your authorization for them to do so is also generally buried in vague legalese in your end user license agreement, and there's no way to opt out. Related:- After Charter's Decision To Drop NebuAD, Will Other ISPs Follow?
- YouTube Ordered To Reveal Viewer Habits
- NebuAD Tries To Defuse Public Relations Nightmare
- Congress 'Grills' NebuAD CEO
- Congress May Require NebuAD Be Opt-In
- Embarq: Selling User Browsing Data 'Empowers' Users
- Embarq Offers More Data On NebuAD Trial
- ISPs Used Mouseprint Alerts For NebuAD Trials
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 Stumbles
join:2002-12-17 Port Saint Lucie, FL | We don't really mean it. By opting out, you will continue to receive advertisements as normal; but these advertisements will be less relevant and less useful to you..
Hee, nice. An opt out that isn't. | |
|  |   MicroWISP
join:2008-01-30 TX Republic
| Re: We don't really mean it. Stumbles, the ISP is just letting you know that you will still receive ads, just not the targeted ones. Just like before they started using NebuAd. As an ISP myself, I can understand, I can see my customers now saying, "I opted out but I still get ads and popups, why?" -- "Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it." | |
|  |  |  Stumbles
join:2002-12-17 Port Saint Lucie, FL
| Re: We don't really mean it. I don't think ISP's should be allowed to interject crap such as ads, targeted or not into my data stream as I surf about. If such things are on the website I visit, that is one thing. By default it should be an automatic OPT-OUT with the requirement ISPs ASK for permission FIRST. The assumption ISPs think they own MY data is bull. | |
|  |  |  goalieskates
join:2004-09-12 Knoxville, TN | Re: Karl was WAY ahead on this... I know for certain Knology users weren't notified. They're small enough that I imagine it will take Congress a while to get to them, but hopefully they will. Otherwise I'll have to jump to a new ISP and I don't care much for their competition here. | |
|  |   tad2020
join:2007-07-17 Orange, CA | For the love of.. Would someone please inform those congressmen about ISP's practice of selling your clickstream. | |
|   zach_lloyd
join:2006-04-10 Greenwood, SC | Return On Investment?
If Embarq knocks off $2.50 a month from my bill (splitting the estimated $5 they make off of selling my data), then it wouldn't be such a big deal. Alas, if anything, my bill has done nothing but go up and my service has done nothing but dwindled. | |
|  |  hottboiinnc Kyle
join:2003-10-15 Toledo, OH | Re: Return On Investment? all ILECs prices ago up faster than cable. You gotta add in the "other taxes and fees" | |
|  |   atangel Now What?? Premium join:2002-02-18 Bronx, NY
| I agree. Listen, if my surfing has value, then they should share that asset with me if they are going to profit from it. After all, in my mind, it is a lot like a copyright. Your right to my "Asset" (words or surfing habits) is contingent on you paying me my share. -- The reason you think I'm way on the left is cause you're so far to the right. | |
|  |  |  EPS
join:2008-02-13 Hingham, MA | Re: Return On Investment? Or, we can sell your information, raise your bill anyway, and keep the profits! Don't like it, well, too bad, use some other ISP! (No other choices, or they're doing it too? Oh well, we don't care!) | |
|  |   DataDoc Nilsson Schmilsson Premium join:2000-05-14 Greenville, NC | Maybe they are, by not raising your bill to cover the NebuAd fees.  | |
|  |  |   atangel Now What?? Premium join:2002-02-18 Bronx, NY
| Re: Return On Investment? Then they aren't (that's like saying your boss gave you raise because he didn't charge you for the electricity!).
It has to be a transaction both parties enter into knowingly, you pay 50/month or 52.50/Month if you opt out. That way, they can determine the value and either up the amount or lower it. If no-one participates at the 2.50 rate, and they think there is money to be made for the corporation, then they will have to offer more. -- The reason you think I'm way on the left is cause you're so far to the right. | |
|  |  |  |  hottboiinnc Kyle
join:2003-10-15 Toledo, OH | Re: Return On Investment? Who says it has to be agreed upon boy both parties?
You? | |
|  |  |  |  |   atangel Now What?? Premium join:2002-02-18 Bronx, NY
| Re: Return On Investment? said by hottboiinnc :Who says it has to be agreed upon boy both parties? You? If it is to be an honest financial transaction, that's what it should be. They derive value from my actions, when I already pay for a service, then I should be allowed to participate and also derive value from my actions. Saying simply that they are not going to raise the price (this is in response to Datadoc, btw), does not constitute a fair trade. They want to be capitalists? Well we should demand the same right. I wonder how much money they (whomever they are) make off our data while we get nothing in return.
Its what is called an Intangible Asset. I just think we should be paid for our contribution!  -- The reason you think I'm way on the left is cause you're so far to the right. | |
|  |  |  |   funchords Robb Premium,MVM join:2001-03-11 Hillsboro, OR
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edit: July 16th, @04:04PM
| I LOVE YOUR IDEA (well, okay, I like it a lot). Here's why --
it's totally and completely "opt in"
1. It's informed -- if you opt in to this, you're getting a check, so chances are that you really do know that your data is being sold rather than something going on behind your back
2. It's optional -- if you don't opt in, you still get to have Internet service. One of my big fears is that ISP's will make this "Opt In" by saying that customers can take it or leave it, but taking it is a condition for service.
3. It provides a competition angle. If you ISP doesn't pay you enough, then opt out and opt-in with someone else that will pay you for your clickstream data or your data stream.
Perhaps you weren't trying to be serious, and I'm not sure that I'm completely serious either. Someone in the ad business ought to look at this thread and tell us if this idea has any legs and why or why not! Some from the privacy angle will also have to tell us why it's a good/bad idea. -- Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon HTTP is the new Bandwidth Hog...
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|  |  |  |  |   atangel Now What?? Premium join:2002-02-18 Bronx, NY
edit: July 16th, @04:08PM
| Re: Return On Investment? Um, no, actually, I was serious. LOL!
It started when I was telling people that free software/spyware was not free... that those companies track your movements and sell the data (that they were working for these companies for nothing and selling their privacy for free).  -- The reason you think I'm way on the left is cause you're so far to the right. | |
|  hottboiinnc Kyle
join:2003-10-15 Toledo, OH
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| Cale Act of 1984 CA of 1984 doesnt apply here so they'll have to find something else but they're an ILEC so be like all the others and just buy your way threw. Especially since they can claim they were acting on the best interest of the USA for "wire tapping" since we know all now that if you claim its for terrorists the gov't will let you keep on doing it. | |
|  |  |  hottboiinnc Kyle
join:2003-10-15 Toledo, OH
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| Re: Personally Identifiable Information??? how is showing who owns a domain in violation of privacy. get over it already.
if you're that worried about your information being private get the hell off the internet already.
You agree to have your information public as soon as you turn on your web browser or sign up for someone online. Especially a domain unless you pay extra to have the information kept private. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  hottboiinnc Kyle
join:2003-10-15 Toledo, OH
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| Re: Personally Identifiable Information??? first off i'm not married and nor do i have kids and i do watch what I click.
Your IP is not private information. you may consider it but its not. As soon as you go onto the Internet it's sending out your IP no way to hide it how much you try. It is bound to be found and tracked back to you anyway you spin it.
If you don't want someone seeing your information don't use the internet. it's that simple.
And call me what you want but the fact is your IP is NOT private and DOES NOT belong to you. Don't like it? TOO FUCKIN BAD! | |
|  |  |  |  |   funchords Robb Premium,MVM join:2001-03-11 Hillsboro, OR
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| Re: Personally Identifiable Information??? Kyle,
You said, "If you don't want someone seeing your information don't use the internet."
And, for normal web browsing, I agree with you. The servers you visit have to know your IP address in order to send information back to you. They also log this information for various purposes, and some even use it to organize their advertising to you. By visiting these sites, you're implicitly giving them permission to track this.
That said, NebuAd and transparent boxes that record clickstream data do not fall into the above category. They see everything because they're installed inside the ISP. They not only see the same data that one website sees, but for all the other websites, too. That's a very different situation. The internet is the conveyance were you conduct your most personal research, and it's aggregation is not appropriate fodder for sales to 3rd parties in my opinion and sense of privacy.
If you don't share my sensibilities, fine. But at least acknowledge that they are both mine to have and not uncommon.
Robb Topolski -- Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon Comcast: We never did anything wrong, and we'll never do it again...
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|  |  |  |  |  |  hottboiinnc Kyle
join:2003-10-15 Toledo, OH | Re: Personally Identifiable Information??? i know how NebuAd works. | |
|  |  |  |  |   FLengineer Premium join:2007-06-26
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| said by hottboiinnc :first off i'm not married and nor do i have kids and i do watch what I click. Your phone number is not private information. you may consider it but its not. As soon as you go onto the telephone it's sending out your phone number no way to hide it how much you try. It is bound to be found and tracked back to you anyway you spin it. If you don't want someone seeing your information don't use the telephone. it's that simple. And call me what you want but the fact is your phone number is NOT private and DOES NOT belong to you. Don't like it? TOO FUCKIN BAD! I'm going to replace "IP address" with "phone number" also "internet" with "telephone" you tell me if your post doesn't make perfect sense. Sounds like you phone number isn't private information either. | |
|  |  |  |  |  TheWickerMan
join:2002-04-09 Enola, PA
| said by hottboiinnc :first off i'm not married and nor do i have kids There's a shocker.  | |
|  |  Smith6612 Premium join:2008-02-01 united state | The owners of websites can choose to have their domain name's registar information anonymous or not on the internet. All you have to do is ask. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  hottboiinnc Kyle
join:2003-10-15 Toledo, OH | Re: Personally Identifiable Information??? ICANN rules actually say you can not fill in the wrong information and go on and on about what can and will happen if information is found to be wrong and not up to date.
and again IP is NEVER private. ITS always seen by the public. | |
|  |  |  |  |   funchords Robb Premium,MVM join:2001-03-11 Hillsboro, OR
·Verizon Online DSL
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edit: July 16th, @07:31PM
| Re: Personally Identifiable Information??? said by hottboiinnc :and again IP is NEVER private. ITS always seen by the public. Okay, hottboiinnc, then tell us what the first three octets of my IP address and FLengineer's IP address is? This should be no problem for you, since the information is public.
I think you'll find it is less public than you think. I don't know yours either. It is revealed to DSLReports because the end points are communicating with each other. But the forwarding transactions by devices in the middle of the network are not, and should not be, public. -- Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon Comcast: We never did anything wrong, and we'll never do it again...
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|  |  |  theDUDE vote with your wallet
join:2008-05-10 Wytheville, VA | ??? So when EMBARQ finally decides to provide me the DSL service they've been promising for years i won't have to worry about this nebuad stuff! I guess that's something. | |
|  cyclone_z
join:2006-06-19 Ames, IA | Congress!??? Concerned about privacy? Wow, this is something else. Congress is interested in stopping spying instead of legalizing it??
How could this be? Oh yeah, I forgot: spying on Americans is the government's job, and the government hates competition! | |
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