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story category Satellite TV Sees First Quarterly Subscriber Loss Ever
Dish loses 25,000 TV customers to economy, competition
(old news - 12:14PM Monday Aug 04 2008)
tags: satellite · competition · business · Dish Network
Last quarter, Dish network added 170,000 new satellite subscribers. This quarter? Not so much. According to the company's latest earnings report, the satellite company lost 25,000 video customers, leaving them with 13.79 million subscribers total. It's notable because this is the first time a U.S. satellite TV operator has ever posted a quarterly subscriber loss. According to an SEC filing by Dish, the losses were caused by "weak economic conditions, aggressive promotional offerings by our competition" and HD competition by rivals.

Related:
  1. Troubled Satellite Launch Impacts Dish Network HD Plans
  2. Analysts Say TiVo Battle Puts Dish in a Bad Position
  3. Dish Discussing Merger With DirecTV
  4. Dish First To Be All MPEG-4
  5. AT&T Partners with DirecTV
  6. Dish Network Takes A Beating
  7. Dish Network Loses 94,000 Subscribers
  8. TiVo Wins Another Echostar Patent Ruling
Forums » Satellite TV Sees First Quarterly Subscriber Loss Ever
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Jonbo298

join:2004-01-12
Council Bluffs, IA

Weak economy and...

Programming that is not worth the cost anymore. I dropped cable months ago (not totally relevant to dish but programming is similar) and I'm honestly not missing much of anything when I can view it online when I feel like it.

supergirl

join:2007-03-20
Pensacola, FL
·Cox VOIP
·Skype
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·AT&T Southeast
·magicjack.com

Re: Weak economy and...

said by Jonbo298 See Profile :

Programming that is not worth the cost anymore. I dropped cable months ago (not totally relevant to dish but programming is similar) and I'm honestly not missing much of anything when I can view it online when I feel like it.
You can't tell me you ain't missing the Simpsons!
--
Saving the world keeps me busy. However, I find Earth very primitive from my home planet of Krypton.
-Supergirl
EPS

join:2008-02-13
Hingham, MA

Re: Weak economy and...

You don't need cable or satellite to watch FOX, though... (well, I suppose if you get bad reception, which is an especially large problem with FOX as it has more UHF affiliates than the other major networks)

en102
Canadian, eh?

join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA

Re: Weak economy and...

yup - I get them all on digital OTA
I just cancelled DirecTv 2 weeks ago, and haven't looked back.
Service was great, but it was just too pricey.
--
Canada = Hollywood North

morbo
Complete Your Transaction

join:2002-01-22
00000
clubs:
some simpsons on hulu.com
wilburyan

join:2002-08-01
... I download seasons of south park... that are of a quality as good as standard TV... i'm sure simpsons would be just as easy.
pcme2000

join:2008-01-17
Bangor, ME
Just a question when you internet provider caps your bandwidth usage are you going to pay the high price for the extra bandwidth usage. Or decide that it was better to stay with tv viewing?
Jonbo298

join:2004-01-12
Council Bluffs, IA


1 edit

Re: Weak economy and...

said by supergirl See Profile :

said by Jonbo298 See Profile :

Programming that is not worth the cost anymore. I dropped cable months ago (not totally relevant to dish but programming is similar) and I'm honestly not missing much of anything when I can view it online when I feel like it.
You can't tell me you ain't missing the Simpsons!

I can watch it OTA on Fox everyday here (they do a 2 hour block of Family Guy and Simpsons from 5pm-7pm alternating shows). I also have a TV that has the digital tuner built in so all I needed was a basic antenna and I get digital OTA (though Fox and CW have been farking up the digital signal recently but analog works reasonable enough for now)

said by pcme2000 See Profile :

Just a question when you internet provider caps your bandwidth usage are you going to pay the high price for the extra bandwidth usage. Or decide that it was better to stay with tv viewing?
I said when I feel like it which isn't often. Cox has made no mention of putting on harsh caps. If they decide to, then I eliminate any TV show viewing and let the economy get worse then it already has been. I don't care about TV shows as much as I used to. I've been trying to fix my life, and the first steps were limiting TV usage and internet usage.

Limiting internet usage meant canceling my MMO subscription (not WoW), and how much I use it. What have I gained (well..lost actually ) from fixing my becoming old addictions? 45lbs lost in about 6 months from not sitting around all the time and actually making something of my life and fixing my mistakes. Still have another 30-40 to go, but its better then what I used to be so far.

Splitpair
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said by Jonbo298 See Profile :

I'm honestly not missing much of anything when I can view it online when I feel like it.
33,257 channels and nothing on.

Wayne
--
If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician.

Dogfather
Premium
join:2007-12-26
Laguna Hills, CA

They didn't keep prices down

After a long history of fighting the channel extortionists Charlie seems to give in often as of late, passing on increases to customers. The result is higher prices and fewer customers.
jmallory

join:2005-11-02
Clawson, MI

Re: They didn't keep prices down

said by Dogfather See Profile :

After a long history of fighting the channel extortionists Charlie seems to give in often as of late, passing on increases to customers. The result is higher prices and fewer customers.
That's because as much as you may hate ESPN, FSN, etc ... you simply cannot offer a Pay-TV service without them. Plus, I don't how much of Charley "fighting" them was actually "fighting" ... when you have good growth you can absorb a lot of the increases...but new sub growth has been slowing for awhile now and those increases now have to be passed on to customers.

Dogfather
Premium
join:2007-12-26
Laguna Hills, CA

Re: They didn't keep prices down

Sports should be on its own tier.
jmallory

join:2005-11-02
Clawson, MI

Re: They didn't keep prices down

said by Dogfather See Profile :

Sports should be on its own tier.
Yes and we can have that argument for the next week as well, but the current market reality is that that the overwhelming majority of your prospective customers expect ESPN, ESPN2, and their local RSNs in the basic package. Until something changes in the market such as regulatory requirements..you have to offer it or your service isn't competitive.

Dogfather
Premium
join:2007-12-26
Laguna Hills, CA

Re: They didn't keep prices down

Given ESPNs low ratings I would disagree.
jmallory

join:2005-11-02
Clawson, MI


2 edits

Re: They didn't keep prices down

said by Dogfather See Profile :

Given ESPNs low ratings I would disagree.
Tell you what, you go setup your own service with all the sports on another Tier, and you report back with how successful you are.

Ratings are irrelevant in this particular discussion, people may not watch ESPN all the time, but they want access to it. During the peak of football season I may watch 12 hours of ESPN weekly...1/2 to 1/3 that any other time...but I would still want it.

Dogfather
Premium
join:2007-12-26
Laguna Hills, CA

Re: They didn't keep prices down

Easy tiger. Good for you and your football but there are quite a few people not interested in channel welfare.

Sports fans should pay to support their very expensive channels instead of expecting everyone else to pay for them.
jmallory

join:2005-11-02
Clawson, MI

Re: They didn't keep prices down

said by Dogfather See Profile :

Easy tiger. Good for you and your football but there are quite a few people not interested in channel welfare.

Sports fans should pay to support their very expensive channels instead of expecting everyone else to pay for them.
Yep, and as soon as you show me some numbers were 51% of the subscribers don't want at least ESPN, ESPN2, and their RSN...we can talk about the rest.

Dogfather
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Laguna Hills, CA
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4 edits

Re: They didn't keep prices down

said by jmallory See Profile :

said by Dogfather See Profile :

Easy tiger. Good for you and your football but there are quite a few people not interested in channel welfare.

Sports fans should pay to support their very expensive channels instead of expecting everyone else to pay for them.
Yep, and as soon as you show me some numbers were 51% of the subscribers don't want at least ESPN, ESPN2, and their RSN...we can talk about the rest.
Look at their ratings, they suck horribly. Even huge games like Yankees Red Sox can't even muster a 3. They only had 2 events in the top twenty with only Nascar pulling better than a 4. 1 decently rated event a week certainly isn't worth the dough they're charging. The week before, only Home Run Derby and pregame cracked the top 20 for ESPN. The week before that, the ONLY ESPN show to make the top 20 was another Yankees Red Sox game and it didn't even pull a 3. More people watched WWE than that game. The July 1st Nielsens; not a SINGLE event or show of ANY ESPN network broke into the top 20.

ESPN aside from an occasional NASCAR event or big baseball game (which would get decent ratings no matter what channel it's on) can't muster any decent ratings. NONE.

Hell, look at the ratings for the so-called popular SportsCenter. They can't even pull a single point. They get a 0.7-0.9. That's the kind of numbers infomercials pull.
jmallory

join:2005-11-02
Clawson, MI

Re: They didn't keep prices down

It isn't the number of eyeballs that matter, it is the type of consumer those eyeballs are attached to and it is a very lucrative consumer.

uid1307457
Premium
join:2005-12-30
Tempe, AZ
·Qwest.net
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said by jmallory See Profile :

said by Dogfather See Profile :

Easy tiger. Good for you and your football but there are quite a few people not interested in channel welfare.

Sports fans should pay to support their very expensive channels instead of expecting everyone else to pay for them.
Yep, and as soon as you show me some numbers were 51% of the subscribers don't want at least ESPN, ESPN2, and their RSN...we can talk about the rest.
espn can go bankrupt for all i care

Hi Desert

@qwest.net

said by jmallory See Profile :

said by Dogfather See Profile :

Easy tiger. Good for you and your football but there are quite a few people not interested in channel welfare.

Sports fans should pay to support their very expensive channels instead of expecting everyone else to pay for them.
Yep, and as soon as you show me some numbers were 51% of the subscribers don't want at least ESPN, ESPN2, and their RSN...we can talk about the rest.


You got it all wrong. Its not the market that is demanding ESPN to stay on all channel tiers. Its Disney's practice to bundle less popular channels with popular ones and even with some of their local networks they own. For example, if Dish wanted to create a tier without the expensive sports crap then Disney would drop Lifetime, possibly ABC, cartoon channels etc.. Its common knowledge that Disney extorts extra money through bundling extortion.. just do a google to confirm that. Disney owns so many channels as a content provider and they can basically charge more through bundling. Its totally wrong and is the major reason this industry needs regulation. These channels should exist on their own merit not on subsidies. And ESPN probably has the highest carriage fee of any channel and is one of the least watched channel. I'm sick of the increases myself and every time Dish has a hike I cut back services. I dropped one of my tuners last time. Next increase they will see me say goodbye.

N3OGH
Bear patrol must be working like a charm
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join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs
·Verizon Online DSL

I can't remember the last time I watched ESPN.

I watch more Weather Channel and News channels than anything else.

Maybe History, Discovery, and AMC.

But I agree, at this point ESPN and other sports channels should be on a separate tier, given their cost.
--
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fancydancer
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2 edits
said by Dogfather See Profile
Sports fans should pay to support their very expensive channels instead of expecting everyone else to pay for them.
By the same token, News (or insert channel type) channels should be on their own tier since I don't watch them and therefore should not have to subsidize them for everyone else. Gimme a break!
--
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Dogfather
Premium
join:2007-12-26
Laguna Hills, CA

Re: They didn't keep prices down

Absolutely...bring on a la carte.
john1290

join:2003-12-06
Reynoldsburg, OH

said by jmallory See Profile :

said by Dogfather See Profile :

Sports should be on its own tier.
Yes and we can have that argument for the next week as well, but the current market reality is that that the overwhelming majority of your prospective customers expect ESPN, ESPN2, and their local RSNs in the basic package.
Says you. I hate any and all sports channels. I can't wait for the day of REASONABLE a la carte pricing. Once that happens, so long espn, mtv and many other worthless channels. Go on and cry that this will also kill off History channel, Discovery and other good channels. To that I say hardly. Because I believe that the majority of people here in the US actually watch/like those channels. Every time my friends and I discuss the dream of a la carte pricing, we're ALL in agreement that sports and music channels need to go buh-bye. Let you sports type pay the premiums to keep those types of shows on the air. I'm confident that most people will be happy to pay for/watch Discovery, History, TLC type stuff.

hobgoblin
Sortof Agoblin
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join:2001-11-25
Orchard Park, NY
clubs:

Re: They didn't keep prices down

Top 20 Cable shows

Rank Shows NET DAY(S) Live+SD HH Rating Viewers Live+SD (000)
1 CLOSER, THE TNT MONDAY 4.7 7,058
2 NASCAR SPRINT CUP L (BRICKYARD 400) ESPN SUNDAY 4.3 6,668
3 HANNAH & MILEY:BEST OF DSNY SATURDAY 3.0 5,864
4 MONK USA FRIDAY 3.1 5,062
5 WWE ENTERTAINMENT (WWE RAW) USA MONDAY 3.0 4,961
6 BURN NOTICE USA THURSDAY 3.0 4,760
7 SAVING GRACE TNT MONDAY 3.1 4,571
8 FOOD NETWORK STAR FOOD SUNDAY 2.8 4,508
9 WWE ENTERTAINMENT (WWE RAW) USA MONDAY 2.7 4,494
10 PSYCH USA FRIDAY 2.8 4,484
11 ICARLY NICK FRIDAY 2.7 4,446
12 LAW & ORDER: CI (ORIG) USA SUNDAY 2.9 4,321
13 MLB SUNDAY NIGHT L (YANKEES/RED SOX) ESPN SUNDAY 2.8 4,230
14 IN PLAIN SIGHT USA SUNDAY 2.8 4,174
15 INCREDIBLES, THE DSNY SUNDAY 2.4 3,922
16 CAMP ROCK DSNY THURSDAY 2.4 3,913
17 ICARLY NICK FRIDAY 2.3 3,815
18 TBS PRIME MOVIE (LAST HOLIDAY) TBSC SUNDAY 2.4 3,813
19 S HANNAH MONTANA(S)-07/26/2008 DSNY SATURDAY 2.3 3,768
20 SPONGEBOB NICK SUNDAY 2.4 3,716

Not seeing many of your channels on there
--
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson
jmallory

join:2005-11-02
Clawson, MI


1 edit
said by john1290 See Profile :

said by jmallory See Profile :

said by Dogfather See Profile :

Sports should be on its own tier.
Yes and we can have that argument for the next week as well, but the current market reality is that that the overwhelming majority of your prospective customers expect ESPN, ESPN2, and their local RSNs in the basic package.
Says you. I hate any and all sports channels. I can't wait for the day of REASONABLE a la carte pricing. Once that happens, so long espn, mtv and many other worthless channels. Go on and cry that this will also kill off History channel, Discovery and other good channels. To that I say hardly. Because I believe that the majority of people here in the US actually watch/like those channels. Every time my friends and I discuss the dream of a la carte pricing, we're ALL in agreement that sports and music channels need to go buh-bye. Let you sports type pay the premiums to keep those types of shows on the air. I'm confident that most people will be happy to pay for/watch Discovery, History, TLC type stuff.
Just show me the numbers that state even a "simple" majority (51%) are in agreement with you, we will talk. "Me and my friends" isn't going to cut it.

In addition, you know, if you really like the Discovery / TLC programming (and you should because a lot of it is top notch), you can always just buy the DVD/Blu-Rays when they are released. I have the complete Planet Earth Blu-Ray set (actually I have the BBC release) and I have been buying the Discovery Atlas series on HD-DVD and Blu-Ray when they are on sale. I also plan on getting "When We Left The Earth" as well to. You can see all the programming you like without even subscribing to Cable or Satellite.


mahermusic

join:2001-07-06
Chesterfield, NJ
·Vonage
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Re: They didn't keep prices down

said by jmallory See Profile :

Just show me the numbers that state even a "simple" majority (51%) are in agreement with you, we will talk. "Me and my friends" isn't going to cut it.
I've even turned off those channels via my TiVo, since noone even watches them.
--
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jmallory

join:2005-11-02
Clawson, MI

Re: They didn't keep prices down

said by mahermusic See Profile :

said by jmallory See Profile :

Just show me the numbers that state even a "simple" majority (51%) are in agreement with you, we will talk. "Me and my friends" isn't going to cut it.
I've even turned off those channels via my TiVo, since noone even watches them.
You don't even make a simple majority of DSLreports subscribers let alone Cable and Satellite subscribers. I have no doubt that there are people who don't watch sports at all on Cable and Satellite, but I believe that they are in the minority.
wentlanc
You Can't Fix Dumb..

join:2003-07-30
Maineville, OH

Re: They didn't keep prices down

I don't watch them either. And if 51% do, let the other 49% of us cut that $5 - $6 from our bills.

Turning your logic against you, you don't make up a simple majority of anything either, so who are you to talk so poorly of the rest of us?

cw
jmallory

join:2005-11-02
Clawson, MI

Re: They didn't keep prices down

said by wentlanc See Profile :

I don't watch them either. And if 51% do, let the other 49% of us cut that $5 - $6 from our bills.

Turning your logic against you, you don't make up a simple majority of anything either, so who are you to talk so poorly of the rest of us?

cw
Wasn't putting anyone down...all I am saying is that if the majority of people expect things to be a certain way (like having ESPN, ESPN2, and FSN as part of basic service) then that is the way it is going to be.

See 6 replies to this post
Corydon
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Without solid numbers, you're both just blowing smoke.

Incidentally, the question isn't whether a majority watch sports on television, but whether they watch ESPN...a completely different question altogether.

Just browsing through what's on ESPN for the next days, I see:

- Lots of Sports Center
- World Series of Poker (this is what qualifies as sports these days?)
- "X-Games" (ditto)
- A handful of talk shows about baseball, football or a few other things
- Two out-of-market baseball games.
- One out-of-market pre-season NFL game (Saints and Cardinals).

Granted, that's taken in the doldrums of summer, but still...I'd find it hard to believe that anyone who's not a pretty hardcore sports fan would get all that worked up about what they have on. Certainly nothing that a combination of local news and sports coverage plus talk radio doesn't cover at least as well and for free.
--
"Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the privilege to do so too."

See 12 replies to this post
Austinloop

join:2001-08-19
Austin, TX
I don't watch ESPN and their ilk/spawn and I am on DSLreports and have Dish, so there!

uid1307457
Premium
join:2005-12-30
Tempe, AZ

1 edit
...

Cheese
Premium
join:2003-10-26
Naples, FL
clubs:
No sports channels here either...I don't really care for them TBH

uid1307457
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said by jmallory See Profile :

said by mahermusic See Profile :

said by jmallory See Profile :

Just show me the numbers that state even a "simple" majority (51%) are in agreement with you, we will talk. "Me and my friends" isn't going to cut it.
I've even turned off those channels via my TiVo, since noone even watches them.
You don't even make a simple majority of DSLreports subscribers let alone Cable and Satellite subscribers. I have no doubt that there are people who don't watch sports at all on Cable and Satellite, but I believe that they are in the minority.


quote:
USA Network wrapped up 2006 as the most-watched ad-supported cable channel, averaging 2.63 million total viewers in prime time over the course of the year, an increase of 13 percent versus 2005.

According to Nielsen Media Research data, USA also beat all comers in the
core demos, averaging 1.18 million adults 18-49 (an 11 percent increase over 2005) and 1.19 million adults 25-54 (a 9 percent year-to-year hike), breaking TNT's four-year winning streak among the two categories. USA also notched the best number with adults 18-34 (537,000, up 15 percent versus last year).

In the total cable universe, non-ad-supported Disney closed out the year at number two, averaging 2.54 million viewers in prime, a 20 percent jump from its 2005 performance. Disney claimed 12 of the year's top 100 programs of 2006, reaching its apogee on Aug. 25 with its original movie The Cheetah Girls 2, which debuted to 8.12 million viewers between 8 p.m. and 10 p.m.

Among ad-supported nets, TNT finished on the heels of rival USA, averaging 2.38 million viewers in prime, a dip of 7 percent from the number it posted in 2005. The Turner net also took second among adults 18-49 (1.07 million, down 8 percent) and adults 25-54 (1.14 million, down 8 percent)

i dont see espn here:

»articles.latimes.com/2008/mar/26···et-usa26
quote:
USA’s view from the top

The reinvented cable network is No. 1 thanks to its president and a few quirky characters.

By Matea Gold
March 26, 2008 in print edition E-1

NEW YORK – When USA Network holds its annual upfront presentation here this evening to pitch advertisers on upcoming programming, the cable channel won’t just be spotlighting its new development slate.

Also on display: the triumphant four-year tenure of its president, Bonnie Hammer, who helped USA regain basic cable’s top perch.

The channel brought in nearly $700 million in profit last year, an impressive amount even compared with the broadcast networks, including NBC, its corporate sibling, which made about $300 million. USA’s success has helped lift Hammer’s fortunes as well. On Monday, NBC Universal announced it was expanding her domain by giving her oversight of a new cable studio split off from Universal Media Studios and putting her in charge of “emerging” cable channels such as Chiller and Sleuth.

The only thing surprising about Hammer’s new responsibilities is that she didn’t get them sooner. Since the television veteran took over USA in 2004, it has shaken off its reputation for stale programming and reinvigorated a graying audience with younger viewers.

By wooing World Wrestling Entertainment back to the channel and promoting the likes of Tony Shalhoub’s obsessive-compulsive detective Adrian Monk as part of its “Characters Welcome” brand, USA reclaimed the top spot in prime time on ad-supported cable in 2006 for the first time in six years. Last year, the channel beat its competitors again with a record average of 2.7 million viewers.

So far this quarter, USA’s audience is up 7% over the same period last year to nearly 3 million viewers, putting it ahead of the broadcast network the CW for the first time.

it is you that should be proving to us that more people watch ESPN because we have plenty of proof that is not true

See 7 replies to this post

dvd536
as Mr. Pink as they come
Premium
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ

said by Dogfather See Profile :

Sports should be on its own tier.
AMEN!
--
When I gez aju zavateh na nalechoo more new yonooz tonigh molinigh - Ken Lee
Josimars

join:2001-04-24
Port Chester, NY
One of the reason why they are going to lose more customers including me is the fact that they no longer carry GOL TV. They need to get their act together before the new European soccer season starts or esle adios at least from me

LiamJunket
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Ocean City, NJ
·Comcast

Cable & telco triple plays are eating in to their base

Given how hard Dish has pushed their HD expansion, this is a big blow to them. Wall St thought they would add 72,000 customers( »news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080804/bs_nm/dish_dc ) and they end up losing 25,000 instead.

The stock market has punished their stock for this. Down over 6% as this is posted:


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KrK
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Re: Cable & telco triple plays are eating in to their base

The biggest problem that Dish (and DirecTV) have is they can't do the bundled deals.

Cable, and now TelcoTV have the big market advantage of being able to bundle TV WITH Broadband (And phone, VOIP, even wireless in some cases.)

Satellite operators can provide great TV service but that's it really. They can't cut you a deal on some Broadband. So the competition is beating them with the bundles.

So all the Dish companies can do is lower prices to compete.... which cuts their margins and profits. Long term, Satellite may be in trouble.
--
"Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!)
Corydon
Cultivant son jardin
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Denver, CO
clubs:
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Re: Cable & telco triple plays are eating in to their base

said by KrK See Profile :

The biggest problem that Dish (and DirecTV) have is they can't do the bundled deals.
Very true. That's why I use Comcast here at home, although my family has a vacation house in a rural area that we're looking at satellite for when OTA broadcast goes digital and we'll likely lose our really spotty signal.

That may be where satellite can make up the difference...there's a lot of real estate out there that the cable companies and telcos have absolutely zero interest in. The question is whether that's enough to survive.
--
"Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the privilege to do so too."

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
·Cox HSI
·AT&T Southwest

Re: Cable & telco triple plays are eating in to their base

Wonder if down the road DBS providers could make deals with and "Bundle" with "Satellite Radio" Provider XM/Sirius.

That would at least give them something pretty cool... Especially if they let you "roam" with your service.
JSRoman
Premium
join:2005-03-10
Callahan, FL

Promo and Marketing Crazy

In my area DISH is promo and marketing crazy. They are offering deals that there is no way they can be making money on unless the sub stays around for 2-3 years. Combine that with amount of deadbeats that just go from cable to sat and never pay their bill and you get quarters like this. SAT and especially DISH Network IMO has the weaker credit and collection policy and the numbers are starting to show that.

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»www.seabee.navy.mil

dvd536
as Mr. Pink as they come
Premium
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ

Re: Promo and Marketing Crazy

said by JSRoman See Profile :

In my area DISH is promo and marketing crazy. They are offering deals that there is no way they can be making money on unless the sub stays around for 2-3 years. Combine that with amount of deadbeats that just go from cable to sat and never pay their bill and you get quarters like this. SAT and especially DISH Network IMO has the weaker credit and collection policy and the numbers are starting to show that.
They're making money because if the sub doesn't stick around, they get slapped with an ETF!
--
When I gez aju zavateh na nalechoo more new yonooz tonigh molinigh - Ken Lee
JSRoman
Premium
join:2005-03-10
Callahan, FL

Re: Promo and Marketing Crazy

If the sub is being disconnected for non-pay do you think they care about being hit with a ETF?

Matt
Quitting Caffeine - Argh
Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
·North State Commun..

Too expensive, not reliable

I'm not sure if this issue hit Dish as well, but I realized the cost savings are simply not there by switching to satellite (DirecTV). Additionally, I had nothing but trouble with my satellite dropping my picture.

I was paying ~$63/month (after taxes) for their middle tier with no premium channels, plus their $9.99 HD access fee. Time Warner gave me the same channels (minus a few HD channels I don't watch, so no loss), plus a HD DVR for ~$54 after taxes. I could knock $8 more a month off that if I didn't want the HD DVR. So, that makes DirecTV $20/month more expensive.

DTV was cheaper until they decided to up their rates. Now I'm stuck with an ETF fee (even though they raised *MY* rates) and the cost to have the dish removed.

My experience with satellite has been less than stellar.

See 19 replies to this post
pcme2000

join:2008-01-17
Bangor, ME
·Verizon Online DSL

Dish loses 25,000 TV customers to economy, competition

I can clearly see why Dish Network lost so many people. I have DirecTv and called Dish Network to see what it would cost me if I wanted to switch to Dish network and have the same 3 room HDDVR recievers when I turned on the service with about the same programming that I have with DirecTv. And Dish network said the start up cost would be $745.00 for the hardware alone. I laughed so hard the lady on the phone hung up.

LiamJunket
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Ocean City, NJ
·Comcast

Re: Dish loses 25,000 TV customers to economy, competition

said by pcme2000 See Profile :

I have DirecTv and called Dish Network to see what it would cost me if I wanted to switch to Dish network and have the same 3 room HDDVR recievers when I turned on the service with about the same programming that I have with DirecTv.
We'll get to see how DirecTV is doing on Thursday when they release their earning report. It will be interesting to see if it was them that picked up Dish customers. Or will DirecTV lose subscribers too - meaning cable/telco is getting customers from both satellite services.
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tstolze
Premium
join:2003-08-08
O Fallon, MO

Re: Dish loses 25,000 TV customers to economy, competition

Or maybe people are trying to save money by cutting back on monthly expenses?
--
Ofallon, Mo Weather

uid1307457
Premium
join:2005-12-30
Tempe, AZ
·Qwest.net
·Convergent Interne..
·DIRECTV

Re: Dish loses 25,000 TV customers to economy, competition

said by tstolze See Profile :

Or maybe people are trying to save money by cutting back on monthly expenses?
I went from top tier directv to middle tier directv to cut monthly costs.

mikepd
Discovery
Premium,MVM
join:2000-10-26
New Port Richey, FL
clubs:
·Verizon Online DSL
·RoadRunner Cable
·Verizon Online DSL
·Verizon Online DSL

You made he mistake of calling Dish directly. You should have called one of their contractors instead. They are the ones with the hardware deals and then sign up with Dish for the programming deals.

When we got Dish in 1998, our only upfront cost was for the programing and everything else was included. Later we bought our own DVR and then when we upgraded to HD, we leased the 722 HD DVR.
--
Always Reach Beyond Your Grasp
jmallory

join:2005-11-02
Clawson, MI


3 edits

It's a Factor of a bad economy in action

I think you we see a lot more churn in all providers numbers as the fuel and food prices increase and people shop around to get the best deal on TV, Phone, and Internet as I think most people do not want to give up their cable/satellite TV entirely but do need to keep the costs as low as possible. Cable and Telco Triple-Pay packages certainly have Dish and DirecTV at a disadvantage. I know I was paying about $162 a month for Digital Cable with 2 premiums, 8M/768K Internet Service, and Vonage for voice. Went to the Comcast Triple Play for two years and now I pay $160 for the same thing + 3 additional premiums (Total of 5 - HBO, Max, TMC, Showtime, and Starz). More service for a little less money is hard to say no to. Not to mention the convenience of only one bill.

FLengineer
Premium
join:2007-06-26
Leesburg, FL

Who's subscriber?

When you get a triple play package from Embarq that include satellite tv, are you counted as a Dish Network customer or an Embarq customer?

FLengineer
Premium
join:2007-06-26
Leesburg, FL

Re: Who's subscriber?

an example would be, If I pay Embarq for voice and data, and I also pay Dish for video. Then I switch to Embarq triple play package and start paying Embarq for my video from Dish. Does that count as a lost subscriber for Dish?

dslwanter
Why would I want DSL? I have FTTH
Premium
join:2002-12-16
Lowellville, OH
·Armstrong Zoom In..
·AT&T Midwest


1 edit

Cable is catching on

It has taken a while but I think cable companies are starting to realize just how many homes on their systems have satellite dishes, so at least around here they've introduced some really nice bundle packages. I did the math for what we pay for DirecTV, DSL from AT&T, and phone service from AT&T, it's cheaper for about the first year to switch to a cable bundle then the price is about equal when the bundle expires after 12 months. The different cable tiers are also similar to the different tiers of DirecTV.

So people are probably jumping over to cable for the promo rate then either keeping it or switching back to the dish side because they didn't like the cable after the promo rate. Plus you have those who don't even watch TV, things have changed and this is a sure sign.

Also with this digital age, "over-the-air" TV is far better than what it was 10 years ago. In our market, there was only 4 channels, 21, 27, 33, & 45. Now you have 21-1, 21-2, 27-1, 27-2, 33-1, 33-2, 33-3 (A local weather feed), & 45-1. 33-2 shows all older sitcoms kind of like what "Nick at nite" would do plus you still get your local news and weather & 21-2 is a different network (CW) than 21-1 (NBC). For most people, that's getting to the point where it's good enough. Get yourself an HDTV or a digital converter box & you're set.

EDIT: Another reason I think Dish lost customers: They don't extend these new deals to their current customers and neither does DirecTV. You see these nice ads like "Get HBO for free for 3 months", or "Get NFL Sunday ticket free for 2 months" but when you as a subscriber call, you get "Oh, that's only for new customers". Perhaps if they extended these to current customers, they might be able to retain them.
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NewMariner

join:2005-06-24

Re: Cable is catching on

said by dslwanter See Profile :

Also with this digital age, "over-the-air" TV is far better than what it was 10 years ago. In our market, there was only 4 channels, 21, 27, 33, & 45. Now you have 21-1, 21-2, 27-1, 27-2, 33-1, 33-2, 33-3 (A local weather feed), & 45-1. 33-2 shows all older sitcoms kind of like what "Nick at nite" would do plus you still get your local news and weather & 21-2 is a different network (CW) than 21-1 (NBC). For most people, that's getting to the point where it's good enough. Get yourself an HDTV or a digital converter box & you're set.
Thats what I did, I dropped down to the lowest dish tier. I then decided to get an Antenna and do OTA, and now I couldnt be happier. I get all the stations I want either OTA or on the internet, and pocked the the money I was spending with dish...it now goes for gas money...

dslwanter
Why would I want DSL? I have FTTH
Premium
join:2002-12-16
Lowellville, OH
·Armstrong Zoom In..
·AT&T Midwest

Re: Cable is catching on

said by NewMariner See Profile :

said by dslwanter See Profile :

Also with this digital age, "over-the-air" TV is far better than what it was 10 years ago. In our market, there was only 4 channels, 21, 27, 33, & 45. Now you have 21-1, 21-2, 27-1, 27-2, 33-1, 33-2, 33-3 (A local weather feed), & 45-1. 33-2 shows all older sitcoms kind of like what "Nick at nite" would do plus you still get your local news and weather & 21-2 is a different network (CW) than 21-1 (NBC). For most people, that's getting to the point where it's good enough. Get yourself an HDTV or a digital converter box & you're set.
Thats what I did, I dropped down to the lowest dish tier. I then decided to get an Antenna and do OTA, and now I couldnt be happier. I get all the stations I want either OTA or on the internet, and pocked the the money I was spending with dish...it now goes for gas money...
Yup. I mean just the other day I went through and tuned my TV just for the heck of it. It's really not too bad, and the picture quality is great since digital is an "all or nothing" technology. You either get the signal or you don't unlike analog. All I really watch is the weather, sometimes the local and/or evening news, and all the sitcoms I like to watch are on one of the channels at least.

I will however admit I do like an occasional movie on HBO or something, but I guess that's nothing I can't get on-line. I'd also miss the weather channel though.
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LordFlux

join:2005-04-20
Warner Robins, GA
·Cox HSI
·Alltel Axess

said by dslwanter See Profile :

... it's cheaper for about the first year to switch to a cable bundle then the price is about equal when the bundle expires after 12 months. The different cable tiers are also similar to the different tiers of DirecTV.
I noticed the same thing in my area as well. When my wife and I first purchased our house a little over a year ago, our first inclination was to go with DishNetwork since the previous owner had it. But after looking at the promo deals that Cox was offering, we'd come out a lot cheaper in our first year by going with cable -- then after the promotion had ended, we'd be paying the same. Having everything on a single bill and dealing with a single provider is so much easier as well. I've got TV/Internet/phone with Cox and couldn't be happier.

Phoenix Gold
Hypocrite

join:2001-11-24
Faulkton, SD
clubs:

shitty customer service.

i was a dish custy for over 8 years and left when their customer service went into the shitter.
--
The insects are huge and the poison's all been used, and the drugs won't kill your day job
cybercrimes

join:2003-12-24
Phoenixville, PA

fios

i bet some of the customers went to fios to get bundles
mr moe

join:2008-07-20
Newton, NJ

DISH a casualty of my problematic dsl connection

I just switched from DISH to cable, not because of any problems with prices or service, but because of connection quality problems with my dsl. I got a much better cable broadband connection with better speeds, and adding the cable TV to it saves me even more money, about $40 a month ($80 a month during the 2008 promo)

I liked DISH, it just made more sense to switch to cable tv with my broadband connection...
n2ubp

join:2007-07-13
Middletown, NY

I think it could be a couple of things...

No matter who you pick as a source, unless you are a big sports fan the channel programming sucks. Most channels use a formula that seems to have one or two blockbuster shows, order 10 to 12 episodes of those shows, when new run the episode two or three times every week, wrap reruns of everything else around it repeated multiple times in the same week, take the same reruns and wrap them around other channels you own but at different times of the day, etc. I don't know who is selling shows to Discovery and the like, but each show repeats so much of itself in a single episode that it put me to sleep. Satellite is being used by alot of telco's as part of their response to cable triple play. Subs dump the package after a year because they can't or won't pay the full price. Stir in the price of fuel, credit crunch, and out comes the results. Does anyone with half a brain watch the home shopping channels ? I've lost count of how many are on DirecTV.. has to be over qty 20
Mr Matt

join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL
·Comcast
·Embarq

The forclosure rate here is impacting all subscribers.

In this area you can drive through the subdivisions with high foreclosure rates and see the number of Dish and Direct TV Satellite Antennas attached to homes that are obviously abandoned. It would be interesting to see how many subscribers Direct TV and the Cable Entertainment Industry lost in problem areas like California, Nevada and Florida during the same period.

aaronwt
Premium
join:2004-11-07
Woodbridge, VA
·Verizon FIOS
·Comcast
·Verizon Online DSL

Re: The forclosure rate here is impacting all subscribers.

said by Mr Matt See Profile :

In this area you can drive through the subdivisions with high foreclosure rates and see the number of Dish and Direct TV Satellite Antennas attached to homes that are obviously abandoned. It would be interesting to see how many subscribers Direct TV and the Cable Entertainment Industry lost in problem areas like California, Nevada and Florida during the same period.
That doesn't mean they don't have service where they live now. Anytime you move you leave the dish.
jmallory

join:2005-11-02
Clawson, MI

Re: The forclosure rate here is impacting all subscribers.

said by aaronwt See Profile :

said by Mr Matt See Profile :

In this area you can drive through the subdivisions with high foreclosure rates and see the number of Dish and Direct TV Satellite Antennas attached to homes that are obviously abandoned. It would be interesting to see how many subscribers Direct TV and the Cable Entertainment Industry lost in problem areas like California, Nevada and Florida during the same period.
That doesn't mean they don't have service where they live now. Anytime you move you leave the dish.
Depends to what you moved to and your financial shape your in. If you moved into an apartment, Cable or Telco may be your only choice. If you were left financially ruined, you may not be subscribing to television any more.
Joe12345678

join:2003-07-22
Des Plaines, IL

DirecTV has better deals, better sports, better HD channles,

DirecTV has better deals, better sports, better HD channles, free locals, nice Referrals plan and more.

They also don't have that 2 room DVR system What is the point of having a 2 tuner dvr feeding 2 tv's and only one of them can be HD?

belawrence
It's All About The Games

join:2000-08-06
Santee, CA
·Cox HSI


2 edits

Re: DirecTV has better deals, better sports, better HD channles,

said by Joe12345678 See Profile :

DirecTV has better deals, better sports, better HD channles, free locals, nice Referrals plan and more.

They also don't have that 2 room DVR system What is the point of having a 2 tuner dvr feeding 2 tv's and only one of them can be HD?
Better deals, not in my area as the Dish dealers here keep giving away the farm(all equip & install free, including their HD DVR). Better sports, they can keep all of their sports as cable here has the exclusive contract to show our baseball team which is all I care about. Better HD channels, checking current listings, carriage is identical with the exception of Dish carrying more HBO & Cinemax channels in HD than Direct does. Free locals, why pay for locals when their HD DVR box has a built in ATSC tuner that lets you get them for free. Dual tuner DVR, they have always advertised the 2nd tuner as being SD only, but the component and hdmi outputs are active at the same time & thats how I feed my 2 displays, in other words the same thing you do if you have a Direct HD DVR. BTW, even with everything that I just said I've still backed my Dish programming down to the "HD Only" deal and just stuck a dual tuner ATSC card in my HTPC in my living room - saving me about $35.00/month!

NRO specialist

@frontiernet.net

Cable/DirecTV/Dish Network... they're all about the same =

MONOPOLY in fixing the prices. Yes you can switch and get a deal for that first year, but after that, they're all the about the same on rates.

What's curious is the 2 YEAR COMMITTMENT/TERMINATION FEES all these programing Clowns want when you sign on... we know the RULING Against CELLUAR phone companies last week by the California Courts about the 2 year committment/termination fee crap. I wonder how fast it will roll over to video?

When that's the case for DirecTV, I terminating immediately... WE and the NEIGHBORS are tired of DirecTV's ALPHA/BETA testing of their OWN boxes. (They GOT GREEDY, dumped all the 3rd party SAT BOX vendors and did their own GARBAGE) DirecTV's new boxes are GARBAGE, their DVR is junk... boy I miss TIVO.

But the limitations on bandwidth useage sucks... becaus eit was going to be my options for HD/BlueRay programming.

Frontier Net and DirecTV SUCK!
jmallory

join:2005-11-02
Clawson, MI

Re: Cable/DirecTV/Dish Network... they're all about the same =

said by NRO specialist :

MONOPOLY in fixing the prices. Yes you can switch and get a deal for that first year, but after that, they're all the about the same on rates.

What's curious is the 2 YEAR COMMITTMENT/TERMINATION FEES all these programing Clowns want when you sign on... we know the RULING Against CELLUAR phone companies last week by the California Courts about the 2 year committment/termination fee crap. I wonder how fast it will roll over to video?

When that's the case for DirecTV, I terminating immediately... WE and the NEIGHBORS are tired of DirecTV's ALPHA/BETA testing of their OWN boxes. (They GOT GREEDY, dumped all the 3rd party SAT BOX vendors and did their own GARBAGE) DirecTV's new boxes are GARBAGE, their DVR is junk... boy I miss TIVO.

But the limitations on bandwidth useage sucks... becaus eit was going to be my options for HD/BlueRay programming.

Frontier Net and DirecTV SUCK!
Funny you should mention that as it was the satellite providers that started that. Back when I had DirecTV in the early 90s you had to pay for the equipment yourself and I think it was about $1200 I had to pay at Sears to get a Dual LNB Sony Dish and two Sony receivers (one SAT-A1 and one SAT-B1 if I remember right, the A1 had an RF remote) plus my programming and you only got a break cost wise if you paid for 11 months up front you would get the 12 month free. Well what happened after a couple of years they were hitting a wall subscriber wise as most people didn't want to dish out a couple hundred dollars per set to hook them up nor pay nearly a $1,000 up front for programming. So they needed to subsidize the equipment...once that happens you need to enter into agreements just so you can make sure that you are at least breaking even at the end of the term. In fact, I was a cable subscriber from 1984-1991 and again after 2001 and I was a month to month subscriber until I signed up for the Premier Triple Play bundle from Comcast last fall. You can't expect something for nothing...if you want a cheap rate, they need to know you will be a customer for 24 months...no one is forcing you to take the bundle price...they would be more than happy to sell you Video, Voice, and Data month to month at full price.

Same thing with Cellular....you want month to month, pay full price for the phone.

NRO specialist

@frontiernet.net

Re: Cable/DirecTV/Dish Network... they're all about the same =

Everything NEW has an OVER-INFLATED price. I'm STILL trying to figure out... when did ALPHA & BETA tester have to pay to use a product. That was the main purpose of the post, though to inform the others... DirecTV did buyout replay TV in mid December, they needed someone/company to fix their DVR functionality, especially since DirecTV told TIVO to take a Hike.

I myself had done the installs on the chimeys on the block here... DirecTV no longer will mount on them with the larger Sat size/weight. Of course I did the alignments and adjustments... no biggy for me... but for the Poe Folk that get soaked by these contracted installers and DirecTV double billing scams, that's what sux.

The HW stuff is ALL over inflated in price... ALL of IT.

that's why you see people buying dish/receievers and mobile phones off the net. But DirecTV even nails yah on that with a manatory NEW SAT card... how much for that 16K EEPROM card worth $.05 = $75 The other is problem are channels that used to be part of a $9.95 package are now a new Premium HD package channel fee. Oh, wouldn't that void their BS contract, taking away channels you once had? That's like paying for the HBO channels and they take half of them away, but you can have them back for $5-10 more. Just another way to price increases, without actually raising the general monthly fee price.

Oh, don't forget, the new (you have only this choice, ONE RECEIVER) H21 is the newest, but lacks an ATSC tuner as the H20s and ALL prior receivers had installed. Meaning, you cannot pickup Locally transmitted Digital broadcast TV/Radio. Another feature lost, especially when you have a choice of selecting 720P or 1080i over DTV's compressed version which also commercially controls those 4-5 channels they provide. Customer looses again.

DTV is a major Corporate Conglomerate who's curent earnings are over $17 BILLION... they have never lost money, even with the new high bandwidth (HDTV) sat prices. They're making bank even in a recession, but we shall see in this declining economy...

They question should be... How much is ENOUGH? How much CONTROL must one have in the MEDIA Distribution market?

MisterMarcus

join:2001-11-10
San Diego, CA

Misleading title...

"Satellite TV" isn't experiencing a loss. Dish Network which happens to be a satellite provider, lost subs.

DirecTV is doing fine, as far as I know.

MEHHHHH

@charter.com

Re: Misleading title...

said by MisterMarcus See Profile :

"Satellite TV" isn't experiencing a loss. Dish Network which happens to be a satellite provider, lost subs.

DirecTV is doing fine, as far as I know.
That's what I was thinking. Dish got rid of Voom HD and I bet a lot of people got pissed off and left. I know I would have left too. DirecTV rocks. Triple-play is definately a MEH...

Anonymous
Premium
join:2004-06-01
IA

Promo pricing

Both Dish Network and DirecTV only offer promo deals to new subscribers. Once they get your SS# in their database no more deals for you. Cable companies will gladly offer promo deals to returning customers as long as they don't owe money.

jhboricua
ExMod 2000-01
join:2000-06-06
Minneapolis, MN
clubs:

Re: Promo pricing

said by Anonymous See Profile :

Both Dish Network and DirecTV only offer promo deals to new subscribers. Once they get your SS# in their database no more deals for you. Cable companies will gladly offer promo deals to returning customers as long as they don't owe money.
Yep, sadly that is the case. I canceled DirecTV 3 months ago after being a suscriber for 8 years. The value was just not there. I even contemplated upgrading to the HD offering but I was going to end up paying even more and if I wanted to have the HD DVR, I would've had to pay for it. Apparently 8 years of customer loyalty has little weight with them. Meanwhile they are offering the equipment free to new customers and the programing I was contemplating for $30+ less per month.

I told them point black, "if you want to retain me as a customer, give me the same deal that you're giving your new customers for the equipment, I'll even sign the 2 yr. contract". They wouldn't, so I canceled. Funny thing is, I don't miss them at all as I watched just a few programs to begin with. And now I do more physical activities outdoors.

RR Conductor
RailRoadDude
Premium
join:2002-04-02
Redwood Valley, CA
·Comcast


3 edits

Cable or OTA TV here? No thanks, I'll take satellite.

Comcast Cable here (Mendocino County) doesn't hold a candle to the quality or selction on satellite, if we could get DSL out here we'd probably consider dropping Comcast completely (we only have them for HSI).

OTA is even worse, we are served by a translator that is still broadcasting in analog, and will continue to do so for an unspecified amount of time after the Feb date, and they are even saying they can't yet say how many channels they'll still get once the Bay Area stations go completely digital next year. The Bay Area station towers are all over 100 miles south of here, we don't have any local channels in our area (the closest is in Santa Rosa, 70 miles south of me, their tower is near Santa Rosa). So basically, not HD OTA here, you HAVE to have cable or satellite to get OTA HD channels in our area.

"Important - About Digital TV!
DO NOT WORRY! You will not be affected by digital TV changes right away. We will still transmit in analog.

However, you should still purchase a DTV conterter box using the DTV coupons ($40) from the government because eventually we will transmit DTV signals. If you wait until next year, the coupons may no longer be available. And note: you must buy a DTV converter that has analog pass-through in order to receive all TIA stations! It's not as hard as it sounds... read DTV on TV Translators to find out more.

It has yet to be determined how many stations we will be able to receive once the switch has been made to DTV."

»www.tiaukiah.org/
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qworster

join:2001-11-25
Los Angeles, CA

Dish became too expensive...

I recently dropped TW cable and got DirecTv. 200 plus channels, 2 rooms and 1 DVR for 45 dollars a month. Dish was about 10 dollars more for a few less channels.

Dish used to be the better deal, but no more...
wh5916

join:2006-02-09
Newport News, VA

Re: Dish became too expensive...

said by qworster See Profile :

I recently dropped TW cable and got DirecTv. 200 plus channels, 2 rooms and 1 DVR for 45 dollars a month. Dish was about 10 dollars more for a few less channels.

Dish used to be the better deal, but no more...
And for how many months does that deal with DirecTV last? That's not their normal price for such a package...if it was, I'd still have DirecTV.
qworster

join:2001-11-25
Los Angeles, CA
·Brand X Internet
·RoadRunner Cable
·Vonage
·DSL EXTREME

Re: Dish became too expensive...

It's good for 12 months, then it goes up 23 dollars a month. I have to keep DirecTv for 18 months total.

I'm still saving 8 dollars a month that last 6 months over cable-and all total I'll save $420.00 over the entire 18 months.

By then U-Verse will be in my neighborhood-it's about a mile away now.

They also threw in 3 free months of HBO, Showtime and Starz.
matt314159

join:2006-01-18
Hesperia, CA
·Charter Pipeline

Nobody's mentioned Signal Theft

Another factor that may be hurting Dish is that signal piracy is beginning to balloon at an alarming rate. It's really not hard at all for an average Joe to steal all their channels anymore. Not sure how much discussion about this is allowed so I'll leave it at that.

zomgpiracy

@sk.ca

Re: Nobody's mentioned Signal Theft

... and it's never been easier.

It used to be that you actually had to have some knowledge... and a basic ability to use a soldering iron.

Now with all these fta receivers... guys can just download a "fix" from various websites... and load it onto their fta receiver with a thumb drive!
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