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story category Verizon Revisiting FiOS Installs For Grounding Issues
After NY PSC inspections found installs weren't up to code...
(old news - 12:05PM Friday Aug 22 2008)
tags: business · hardware · networking · Verizon FIOS
Tipped by Dennis See Profile
New York State Public Service Commission inspectors have found that a number of New York State FiOS installations may not have been properly grounded. The potential problems were only made public during the approval process for Verizon's new franchise with New York City, during which Commissioner Patricia Acampora raised concerns about approving the franchise without first fixing the issue. Acampora voted against the approval because of the problems, and others only voted yes dependent on a post-approval follow up of the problem by Verizon.

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Verizon confirms to me they're working with the PSC on the problems. The company has submitted a plan that has them not only going back to double check installations, but also involves a new quality-assurance team for future installs. "We've been talking to the NYPSC staff for awhile now about procedures in some specialized FiOS installations," Verizon's Bobbi Henson tells me. "We are working with the Commission to ensure that they are comfortable with our grounding approach and that we understand what their expectations are."

A number of consumer groups including Common Cause/New York, Consumers Union and NYPIRG have jumped on the discovery, and are asking regulators to reconsider the franchise approval. According to a NY consumer group named the "People's Production House," Verizon is "putting customers, workers, and homeowners at risk." The groups say the NYC deal was rushed through the approval process without proper consumer safety due diligence.

"Considering the aggressive rollout schedule included in the franchise and the railroading of the deal through the approval process, one has to be concerned that Verizon is sacrificing public safety for productivity," says the group's website. In their official filing (pdf) for franchise reconsideration, the group claims grounding concerns were "dismissed in an arbitrary and capricious manner." Back in May, the same groups voiced their concerns that the public was left out of the franchise negotiation process.

As you might expect, Verizon sees things differently. "Groups that have long opposed our NYC franchise are seizing the opportunity to file the document you found in their continuing attempts to stifle our FiOS offer," says Henson. "Bottom line is we put safety first," promises Henson. "We are confident that our grounding procedures are in compliance with the code and that our employees, our customers and our customers' property are safe."

Neither the PSC, the groups or Verizon have offered up any additional technical specifics on what the precise grounding issues are. The filing simply suggests that some FiOS Optical Network Terminals (ONT) aren't being grounded in line with the National Electric Code (see older forum discussion on ONT grounding). Have users (or electricians) with FiOS installations noticed anything of note? Any Verizon FiOS installers care to comment? If so, post your thoughts (and photos, if you have them) in our comment section below.

Related:
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  4. Verizon Slowly Revisiting FiOS Installs For Grounding Issues
  5. Electrical Expert: FiOS Installations Safe
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Forums » Verizon Revisiting FiOS Installs For Grounding Issues
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espaeth
Digital Plumber
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN

1 edit

Any good electrical contractor will tell you...

it's really important to ground your non-conductive glass transport cabling.
brainlessdog

join:2005-11-30
Portsmouth, NH

Re: Any good electrical contractor will tell you...

It is not the fiber that needs grounding, it is the electronics in the ONT. Get a clue.
bbskeptic

join:2005-09-12
Burlington, VT

Re: Any good electrical contractor will tell you...

The electronics in the ONT are powered by AC from the house...which is.. duh... grounded
bjbrock

join:2002-10-28
Mcalester, OK

Re: Any good electrical contractor will tell you...

It may or may not be grounded properly. Especially older locations.
brainlessdog

join:2005-11-30
Portsmouth, NH
The power supply only has two prongs. Please get your facts straight.

MadMANN
Premium
join:2005-08-19
·Comcast

said by bbskeptic See Profile :

The electronics in the ONT are powered by AC from the house...which is.. duh... grounded
You need a common grounding point between the ONT and the house ground. Even if the power supply was grounded through the house power outlet, you still need a direct ground from the ONT to the home's power ground wire.

With your logic, if a cable modem or TV connected to cable is plugged into a grounded power outlet, then the cable wouldn't need a ground block.

espaeth
Digital Plumber
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
·voip.ms
·Vitelity VOIP
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said by brainlessdog See Profile :

It is not the fiber that needs grounding, it is the electronics in the ONT. Get a clue.
There was a smiley at the end. It's Friday, relax a little and take a joke.

cypherstream
Looking forward to the future of things.
Premium,MVM
join:2004-12-02
Reading, PA
clubs:

Re: Any good electrical contractor will tell you...

Yeah that guy may of been right, but he didn't have to reply like he's got a stick in his ass "I'm better then you" attitude.
wev567

join:2006-02-25
Pittsburgh, PA
Most fiber has metallic mesh in the sheathing.
bbskeptic

join:2005-09-12
Burlington, VT

Re: Any good electrical contractor will tell you...

Not in the drop cable

splicer1169

@verizon.net
Verizon uses non metallic cables for fios. Only use metal sheaths in manhattan for steam conditions.
Kearnstd
Elf Wizard
Premium
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ

any good electrical contractor is also not working for a company that demends as many jobs as possible per day even if a corner or two needs to be cut. telecom is all about raw numbers, hire less techs and set higher work day quotas.
--
[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports
bogey780

join:2004-03-19
Here

Makes me wonder...

What did they do wrong? Was it a quibble such as grounding to the meter pan versus grounding to the bus or better?

I'll need to read more about it.

espaeth
Digital Plumber
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN

Re: Makes me wonder...

I would guess the inside coax back to the ONT might not be properly grounded in some installs.
bogey780

join:2004-03-19
Here

Reading the attachment in the complaint it seems the issues they cite are with workers being killed by electricity while installing FiOS or FiOS related equipment.

I'm not sure how revisiting each job will help. It's an issue with internal safety practices and enforcement.

NetAdmin
CCNA

join:2008-05-22

Re: Makes me wonder...

said by bogey780 See Profile :

I'm not sure how revisiting each job will help. It's an issue with internal safety practices and enforcement.
Absolutely. I don't know how many stories I've heard from around different industries from people who get a jolt and end realizing that they forgot to ground, power down, ad nauseum.

The only thing that re-visiting each install does is cover Verizon's ass in the event that it becomes an issue where subs are getting zapped.
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Dennis
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Algonquin, IL
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no problems....at all?

said by timesunion.com :
Verizon spokesman John Bonomo said"...the bottom line is we put safety first," Bonomo added. "We are confident that our FiOS installation procedures are in compliance with prescribed standards. In more than four years of installing FiOS, there have been no problems resulting from our installation practices."

Good to know that setting houses and apartment buildings on fire no longer counts as a problem.
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meh37

@verizon.net

Re: no problems....at all?

I think he's just saying:

(1) They don't practice drilling through electrical conduit during "installer classes".
(2) They expect their installers to be practiced enough to not drill through electrical conduit.

1? 2? both? neither?

GeekGirl1
The Medium IS the Message
Premium
join:2007-01-28
Morrisville, PA


3 edits

Doesn't everyone check the install?

I've got my ONT installed in my basement. Verizon ran the ONT ground wire to an ungrounded workbox near the install. After they left, I re-ran the wire to the same cold water pipe that's used for my service entrance ground.

There are a threads ad-nauseum in the Verizon FiOS TV and Verizon FiOS Fiber Optics forums about grounding. My postings about this install are in the mix, all is OK.

Bottom line is that it's Verizon standard procedure to ground the ONT. Of course the fiber is plastic, but you have to realize that you are connecting to other services such as coax cable and phone lines that require proper grounding- hence the need to ground the ONT.
moonpuppy

join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD
·Verizon Online DSL

Re: Doesn't everyone check the install?

said by GeekGirl1 See Profile :

I've got my ONT installed in my basement. Verizon ran the ONT ground wire to an ungrounded workbox near the install. After they left, I re-ran the wire to the same cold water pipe that's used for my service entrance ground.

There are a threads ad-nauseum in the Verizon FiOS TV and Verizon FiOS Fiber Optics forums about grounding. My postings about this install are in the mix, all is OK.

Bottom line is that it's Verizon standard procedure to ground the ONT. Of course the fiber is plastic, but you have to realize that you are connecting to other services such as coax cable and phone lines that require proper grounding- hence the need to ground the ONT.
Problem is not many people are aware equipment needs to be grounded much less how to do it properly.
8744675

join:2000-10-10
Decatur, GA

When my cable was installed several years ago, the installer pulled the insulated green ground wire through a vent into my crawlspace and wrapped 1 loop of the insulated wire around a rock laying on the dirt floor. I guess electricity knows it has to exit at the rock and look for the dirt to finish it's trip to the ground.
brainlessdog

join:2005-11-30
Portsmouth, NH

Blame it on Productivity

Grounding the ONT properly is the techs responsibility. Verizon management hammered the techs to get the jobs done faster. I am sure that skipping the ground wire is done all the time in order to speed up installations.
hottboiinnc
ME

join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH
·Time Warner Cable
·buckeye cable

Re: Blame it on Productivity

And how do you figure this when the VZ techs even on this board state that they're given such a large install window they can and do take their time?

It's called those "skilled" techs are just lazy! And claim they can't be replaced? HA! This is a good way to get replaced.

VZ needs to go back to these installs and find out who actually finished them. Get out the pack of pink slips then tell those techs to f*c* off because they're done! and let VZ hire a non-union installer who chances are would check the install AFTER its fully completed a 2nd time.
bogey780

join:2004-03-19
Here

Re: Blame it on Productivity

Read the complaints. This has nothing to do with actual grounding issues at the ONT. There's no proof the Verizon workers bonded and grounded the ONTs wrong.

idjk

@embarqhsd.net

Bonding

In telco installation "always time to do it right the 2nd time " is a standard theme but bonding the sheath is important because lack of bond can hurt you. If you were up a pole a grabbed an non-bonded line the induced charge from overhead power lines can knock your dick in the dirt-I've been there with old "dead" open wire out in the burbs.
One wonders who is funding People's Production House- the cable tv people maybe??

birdfeedr
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-11
Warwick, RI
·Verizon FIOS

Re: Bonding

said by idjk :

One wonders who is funding People's Production House- the cable tv people maybe??
Check out »peoplesproductionhouse.org for more, although it may not give deep enough details to answer your question. That may need someone to put two and two together.

Three key players have roots at WBAI 99.5 FM radio.
patcat88

join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY

Re: Bonding

Sounds like a random civic group paid to publish this.

No to ESPN

@sbcglobal.net

Permits and Inspectors?

I guess no permits need to pulled for installation of these devices. Building inspector or master electrician is supposed to inspect and sign off before power is turned on. If this is not done then the agency that is not requiring final inspection takes responsibility for injuries in court of law.

electric man

@rr.com

Re: Permits and Inspectors?

Before installing any additions to anything an enginner and inspector soppose to approve the build some states have different electric codes.

No to ESPN

@sbcglobal.net

Re: Permits and Inspectors?

I agree with prelim work by engineer etc. My point is that you are supposed to have an installation inspected and "approved" before turning on the power. Has the federal or state governments removed this requirement for this type of equipment?

For the record I am an electrical engineer with a PE in my home state.

NY tech 43

@verizon.com

Re: Permits and Inspectors?

The ONT only draws 12V,38W max FROM the customers wiring. The FiOS network is totally passive, no current at all. If anything, the ONT needs protecting from the customers faulty wiring.

elbm

join:2000-08-03
Reisterstown, MD
·Verizon FIOS

ONTs do not require grounding

The specs from the manufacture do not require the ont be grounded. It is a Verizon M&P that requires grounding. The ont is powered by dc from a transformer and the optical drop is non-metallic. There is no real reason to ground the ont other than an over zealous M&P.

GeekGirl1
The Medium IS the Message
Premium
join:2007-01-28
Morrisville, PA


1 edit

Re: ONTs do not require grounding

Sorry, no. Just search the forums and you'll get a lot of reasons to do it. Like here: »What needs to be grounded at install?. You have to connect the ONT to other services like coax cable, ethernet, and phone lines which need the ground.

elbm

join:2000-08-03
Reisterstown, MD

Re: ONTs do not require grounding

I did not say that there are not reasons to ground the ont but it is not required by the manufacture for the ont to perform properly.

NOZIREV

join:2008-07-10
New Bedford, MA
·Comcast

You peeps are

making it sound like you have to ground the ONT. That is a lot harder than what really needs to be done. All you have to do is bond the ONT to something that is already grounded (ie copper braid from electrical service, cold water copper pipes, copper ground rod, oh and dont forget the gas pipes . anywho it takes very little time to do a bond and i agree with the geekgirl1 on this issue.

See 15 replies to this post

JSY
Premium
join:2000-04-05
Elmhurst, NY
clubs:
·RoadRunner Cable
·Bway.net

The real point...

is not so much as whether grounding is required, but whether or not the installers were following instructions. If they didn't not properly ground because Verizon told them to do it that way, then fine - Verizon has to fix that issue and retrain the installers. However, if the installers didn't install it properly by way of not following Verizon's instruction, then all I can say is - look, it's already happening. They're getting lazy and careless as the TWC, Dish, etc. people. LOL!

No to ESPN

@sbcglobal.net

Grounding vs Bonding

Grounding is to provide voltage reference and remove "noise".

Bonding is to make enclosure same potential as rest of area so someone does not get shocked or killed touching the enclosure.

Bond wire and ground wire are not the same except at source of power which is most likely a transformer secondary. The ground wire and bond/ground grid should only connect at one point.

What does this mean? The cabinet, if it has active electrical devices should have two non power wires, one for establishing ground and one for safety bonding. For higher voltage installation you normally have more than one bond connection.

BlueConnect

join:2004-04-02
FFX, VA

Tellabs ONT

I can not speak for anyone else but my Tellabs 1611 ONT has a 12VDC (14.82) feed from the VDC/battery charger that receives a 48VDC feed from the AC/DC converter. The AC side of the converter is supplied via a standard 120VAC grounded service. The ground lug on the ONT might just be just a signal/safety ground. Since the ONT is DC powered it does not require a ground to function but the return side of the VDC is usually tied to ground for reference and the ONT does produce a RF signal, that service usually requires a reference ground. Also there are status signals that go between the ONT and VDC/charger. These may also require a reference, not saying they are RS-232 but may be similar.
Just my opinion, would be nice to see the schematic for the ONT.
kalanic00

join:2006-07-16
Eagle River, AK
·GCI.net
·Verizon FIOS
·Verizon Online DSL

Re: Tellabs ONT

I figure the ground lugs are there, so ground.

Additionally, there are some remote tests that require a reference to ground. For instance, there is a remote test that electrically removes the telephone house wire from the ONT circuitry then tests it for AC/DC voltage and resistive faults.
ITALIAN926

join:2003-08-16
Stratford, CT

bs

LOL Do you know how many cable drops out there are NOT GROUNDED ?? This is a REAL RISK considering a lightning bolt can stike their overhead coax and run to the house ! THIS CANNOT HAPPEN WITH FIOS !! The cable companies are behind this 100%
brianl703

join:2004-02-26
Manassas, VA


1 edit

Re: bs

said by ITALIAN926 See Profile :

LOL Do you know how many cable drops out there are NOT GROUNDED ??
I know of at least two thanks to the morons^H^H^H^H^H^H^ "skilled FIOS installers" at Verizon who cut the ground wire to the cable TV ground block and removed it.
awaltech

join:2003-05-05
Hemet, CA

ground length

Ground specs as I know them---fios installer west coast---is 10 gauge wire not to be more than 20 feet in length, no 90 degree bends, first choice is existing telco bond, edison neutral. If there is no bond available, then the install is not supposed to go forward till one is provided.


lightingcapital

@verizon.net

Grounding

I live in Florida along the I4 corridor which is lighting capital of US and possibly the world. I spoke with a Verizon tech I know he advised the grounding is to protect the ONT and electronics. I you have an inside ONT they dont even have ground it to the MGN. The only times they have ground the ont to the mgn is if its located outside or if there is over 6ft of exposed coax/phone wiring outside the house. The inside ont have 3prong plug and that is all that is needed. All grounding is just to protect the equip. HTis leads to believe that whas going on in NYC is just an act to delay FIOS penetration.

Pathfinder
Dazed Confused
Premium
join:2000-03-26
Mount Vernon, NY

Re: Grounding

The same rules apply in New York except that if there is ANY wire going outside from a JiONT then it must be grounded to the MGN.
awaltech

join:2003-05-05
Hemet, CA

fios grounding

The grounding practice that fios techs receive out on the west coast is 10ga no longer than 20 feet, no sharp bends, first choice is grounding to the electric co neutral.
firehawk618

join:2003-05-29
·Verizon FIOS
·Verizon Online DSL

Re: fios grounding

said by awaltech See Profile :

The grounding practice that fios techs receive out on the west coast is 10ga no longer than 20 feet, no sharp bends, first choice is grounding to the electric co neutral.
X2
jfoj

join:2005-05-06
Mclean, VA

Re: fios grounding

I could care less about protecting the ONT and Verizon electronics (except if it is my service and I do not want a potential outage or service call), but the ONT should be properly grounded/bonded to eliminate ground loops and to protect users from stray currents.

With TV's, telephones and network gear all connected to the ONT (which is typically located outside next to the power drop to the house) you would want the ONT grounded/bonded to reduce problems from lightning to the homeowner or contractor performing work in the house drilling or cutting through AC lines and shorting them to cable/phone/data lines and lighting up the entire signal distribution plant with AC Voltage.

If the hardware is properly grounded/bonded, then most likely sparks will fly, breakers will trip and someone will know there has been AC coupled to the signal wires. Worse case if if the hardware is not properly grounded/bonded, you can have signal wires with potentially hazardous Voltage for an unsuspecting person. Sometimes the problems do not appear until a signal cable is actually disconnected, removing a unknown ground/bonding path, that the problem become evident.

Hey, just ground/bond everything properly for everyone's safety.

jfoj
Forums » Verizon Revisiting FiOS Installs For Grounding Issues


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