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Qwest Brings a Knife To a Utah Gun Fight
After years of fighting FTTH projects, launches ADSL2+....

For years, Qwest has sent lawyers after communities who, unhappy with Qwest service, wanted to deploy their own broadband. The baby bell has been particularly aggressive in the state of Utah, where the telco sued the Utopia FTTH project in an effort to prevent them from using regional utility poles. The suit resulted a costly eighteen month delay in deployment of the wholesale service, which, through resellers like XMission, MStar and even AT&T, offers state residents symmetrical fiber connections for a fraction of the cost of slower Qwest service.

Why provide a Rolls-Royce when a Chevrolet will do?
-Qwest executive Jerry Fenn
Qwest's Utah President, Jerry Fenn, has had no shortage of criticism for municipal fiber to the home deployments over the last decade, telling the press that Qwest is on "the other side of municipally backed telecom projects" mostly because "of the long-term harm to consumers." Back in 2003, Fenn asked the question: "Why provide a Rolls-Royce when a Chevrolet will do?" Indeed.

Years later, Qwest appears poised to throw a Ford Pinto into the equation. With Utopia facing potential meltdown, our users note that Qwest has finally deployed their "next-generation" broadband service in parts of Utah. The service, advertised via Qwest's website as "fiber optic technology," is actually ADL2+ service that comes in flavors of 12Mbps/896kbps or 20Mbps/896kbps.

While Qwest advertises their 12Mbps tier for $46.99, that price requires you sign a two year contract and bundle $30 local voice service. If you do neither, users say your real price for 12Mbps/896kbps service will be closer to around $62 a month -- more when you add in the usual fees. Qwest's 20Mbps/896kbps tier is almost $100, with the same caveats driving that price tag closer to $120 if you're not in the mood for a long-term contract or copper Qwest phone service.

Considering local ISP MStar is offering symmetrical 15Mbps service for $39.95 and symmetrical 50Mbps connections for $59.95 through Utopia, surely locals are happy that Qwest has spent so much time in the state protecting consumer interests. Qwest has done a particularly good job protecting consumers from the dangers of upstream speed.
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en102
Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA

1 edit

en102

Member

Why provide a Rolls-Royce when a Chevrolet will do?

quote:
Qwest is on "the other side of municipally backed telecom projects" mostly because "of the long-term harm to consumers." Back in 2003, Fenn asked the question: "Why provide a Rolls-Royce when a Chevrolet will do?"
Because Qwest is charging Rolls-Royce pricing for their Chevrolet. I don't think the average user cares that its 50Mbps vs 12Mbps... they will care if they are being charged more for their 12Mbps after bundling than others pay for 50Mbps.

Lets see...
$39.95 for symmetrical 50Mbps service
or
$42.95 for 12Mbps/896kbps AFTER having to pay for voice service, bringing it past $60

halo5
join:2000-07-20
Dayton, OH

halo5

Member

Re: Why provide a Rolls-Royce when a Chevrolet will do?

This is pretty much the mind set of most American businesses now days it seems.

"How can we provide as little as possible and charge as much as possible"?

S_engineer
Premium Member
join:2007-05-16
Chicago, IL

S_engineer

Premium Member

Re: Why provide a Rolls-Royce when a Chevrolet will do?

said by halo5:

This is pretty much the mind set of most American businesses now days it seems.

"How can we provide as little as possible and charge as much as possible"?
This is the trickle down theory....since most Telco/cablecos are doing it, theres no incentive to give the consumer anything else. This status quo also preserves future rate increases.

dvd536
as Mr. Pink as they come
Premium Member
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ

dvd536 to en102

Premium Member

to en102
said by en102:
quote:
Qwest is on "the other side of municipally backed telecom projects" mostly because "of the long-term harm to consumers." Back in 2003, Fenn asked the question: "Why provide a Rolls-Royce when a Chevrolet will do?"
Because Qwest is charging Rolls-Royce pricing for their Chevrolet. I don't think the average user cares that its 50Mbps vs 12Mbps... they will care if they are being charged more for their 12Mbps after bundling than others pay for 50Mbps.

Lets see...
$39.95 for symmetrical 50Mbps service
or
$42.95 for 12Mbps/896kbps AFTER having to pay for voice service, bringing it past $60

Don't forget the 15% PPPoE penalty you'll pay with that tired old protocol so that shiny new 12000/896 is really 10200/762 and thats assuming PERFECT SERVICE which we all know doesn't exist on qworst[qwest].
cornelius785
join:2006-10-26
Worcester, MA

cornelius785

Member

Re: Why provide a Rolls-Royce when a Chevrolet will do?

put down the crack pipe dude. the overhead is less than a percent (1492/1500*100=0.5333...). nowhere near 85%.

djrobx
Premium Member
join:2000-05-31
Reno, NV

1 edit

djrobx

Premium Member

Re: Why provide a Rolls-Royce when a Chevrolet will do?

He's mostly referring to ATM overhead, not PPPoE overhead. Typical ATM+PPPoE DSL circuits have an overhead that is quite close to 85%. He got his facts a little wrong but he's hardly smoking crack.

-- Rob
viperlmw
Premium Member
join:2005-01-25

viperlmw

Premium Member

What's that cap again?

Oh yea, "MStar spokesman Matt Clayton tells us the tier will cost users $39.95 a month, and it will come with a 100GB per month cap." »50Mbps Symmetrical For $39.95 [38] comments

Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02

Karl Bode

News Guy

Re: What's that cap again?

Users claim they by and large aren't enforced, though I'm interested in hearing from anyone who has experienced them.
viperlmw
Premium Member
join:2005-01-25

viperlmw

Premium Member

Re: What's that cap again?

Well, here's what Xmission said about this:
said by woodward:

But seeing as you're discussing a residential pipe that is fatter than a DS3 for about $40/mo*, I can say with some faith that any provider who intends to stay in business for more than a couple of weeks will have some bandwidth policy attached.
»UTOPIA Fiber 50/50 NOW Available - $39.95

woodward
XMission Internet
join:2000-12-28
Salt Lake City, UT

woodward to Karl Bode

Member

to Karl Bode
said by Karl Bode:

Users claim they by and large aren't enforced, though I'm interested in hearing from anyone who has experienced them.
As a general rule, if someone breaks the 100 GB limit (a wholesale restriction, incidentally) they just upgrade to 50/50/500GB, which is only a little more for a significant boost in speed and volume. And that's usually the last we hear from them.

I think I can count on one hand the number of subscribers that break that 500 GB ceiling, and we sell additional chunks of 100 GB for $20/mo (which is essentially a pass through cost for us). Bandwidth in Utah is generally more expensive than elsewhere in the country.

delusion FTL
@mcleodusa.net

delusion FTL to viperlmw

Anon

to viperlmw
The 50/50 Service has a 500GB allowance, with overages costing around 20cents a gig. At least according to xmission's service policy.

That's way better than the:
"you're affecting your neighbors because we have inferior technology deployed, so we are going to throttle you or hard cap (overages = boot off service)"
comcast provides for more money and slower speeds.

I've seen and used quests new dsl both the 12 and 20 meg service and neither got close to their stated speeds. Approx 9mbit on the 12 and 16 on the 20 is what you should expect to get.

By the way pings to nearby servers for gaming on utopia are under 15ms. I've seen some users get down near 5ms.

en102
Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA

1 edit

en102

Member

Re: What's that cap again?

Let me guess... ATM overhead. Typically on a DSL line, you're looking at max ~85% of sync rate.
Sync rate of 20Mbps (20,480kbps?) = 17,408kbps throughput at 85%. Sad... their overhead was as much as my AT&T ADSL pipe
jarthur31
join:2006-04-14
Carlsbad, NM

jarthur31 to viperlmw

Member

to viperlmw
Wow, I wish I could get that here! I don't think I've ever transferred 50 GB any month since I had either DSL or Cable (over the past 4+ years). But then again HD TV shows are a recent thing and most games broadcast online aren't at that quality marker just yet.

WiseOldBear
Laissez les bons temps rouler!
Premium Member
join:2001-11-25
Litchfield Park, AZ

WiseOldBear

Premium Member

Qwest Is So STUPID

They waste money on pointless law suits, refuse to upgrade their infrastructure and reduce level of service. They have become gigantic losers.
viperlmw
Premium Member
join:2005-01-25

viperlmw

Premium Member

Re: Qwest Is So STUPID

said by WiseOldBear:

They waste money on pointless law suits, refuse to upgrade their infrastructure and reduce level of service. They have become gigantic losers.
But 2 of your points are invalid in this context. FTTN is an upgrade to infrastructure, which is required to INCREASE the level of service (12 and 20 Meg DSL is about the fastest DSL you can get, anywhere). Just because they aren't aggressively doing FTTH doesn't invalidate the progress Qwest is making.
EPS4
join:2008-02-13
Hingham, MA

EPS4

Member

Re: Qwest Is So STUPID

Honestly, years of mismanagement at Q has left a massive Verizon-esque fiber deployment essentially impossible... FTTN is pretty good, and they are offering higher speeds than say, at&t (to compare to other telcos)...

delusion FTL
@mcleodusa.net

delusion FTL to viperlmw

Anon

to viperlmw
What's your rationalization for the measly upstream speed? Surely you aren't touting this as an "upgrade" or "progress".

Why do I as a consumer want to pay more for "the fastsest DSL anywhere" when i can get a far superior connection for less money?

Why do they spend millions of dollars trying to stop fiber development instead of deploying fiber themselves?

Why do they not become a provider on the utopia network INSTEAD of spending millions to deploy a technology that's already surpassed? They already resell over direct tv and verizon wireless. why not utopia?

bent
and Inga
Premium Member
join:2004-10-04
Loveland, CO

1 edit

bent to viperlmw

Premium Member

to viperlmw
said by viperlmw:
said by WiseOldBear:

They waste money on pointless law suits, refuse to upgrade their infrastructure and reduce level of service. They have become gigantic losers.
But 2 of your points are invalid in this context. FTTN is an upgrade to infrastructure, which is required to INCREASE the level of service (12 and 20 Meg DSL is about the fastest DSL you can get, anywhere). Just because they aren't aggressively doing FTTH doesn't invalidate the progress Qwest is making.
When you hold it up to the progress their competition (where they have any) has made, it is not only invalidated, it's made to look foolish. Part of Quests failing (2 years? 5 years from now? What kind of federal bailout does a failed RBOC get?) has been their inability to separate their rural customer base from their metropolitan. There's no way in hell you're going to make money running FTTFarm, but treating your metro (yes, Provo is metro, it's more or less a suburb of SLC) customers like their out in the sticks is a sure fire way to lose them. It wouldn't cost any more for Qwest to run competing fiber than it cost Verizon, yet they will not do it. With the money they've saved by turning down the brightness of the Blue Light, they should be able to compete in the market rather than the courtroom.

Here's an idea:

City population below 50k, VDSL
City Population above 50k, FTTH

They have no cell revenue, landline customers are dieing of old age, AND they won't compete in the broadband arena. If you own it, sell it while you still can.
nasadude
join:2001-10-05
Rockville, MD

1 recommendation

nasadude

Member

whose interests?

despite getting stories like these periodically and something called FACTS, some people still seem to labor under the illusion that the large, incumbent ISP telco/cablecos have the best interests of consumers in mind.

THEY DO NOT. They are for profit, shareholder "owned" companies. It has been shown time after time after time that these companies don't care about their customers if they don't have to. They would rather send in lawyers to shut down independent providers (or at least burden them with onerous conditions not conducive to a successful business) and municipalities than compete on services or price.

as long as broadband is dominated by the incumbents, we'll get slow, crappy, wildly asymmetrical service that is barely better than advanced third world country's.
DoubleK
Doublek
join:2003-03-04
Beloit, WI

DoubleK

Member

Re: whose interests?

Nothing I could possibly add! Well stated nasadude!

DaMaGeINC
The Lan Man
Premium Member
join:2002-06-08
Greenville, SC

1 edit

DaMaGeINC

Premium Member

Wow

It amazing that we have people like this in positions of power. And not only in Quest, but all over the country and even in Washington.

diehardspeed
Premium Member
join:2003-05-14
Salt Lake City, UT

1 edit

diehardspeed

Premium Member

And they are running commercials all the time!

I see these qwest commercials about fiber all the time and just go WTF!

I mean they can't beat this! -> »www.speedtest.net/result ··· 2143.png



It's too bad none of the Utopia providers can afford that type of TV advertising budgets. There are so many people who simply don't know what they are missing by not ever hearing about it. I mean there is no reason EVERYONE should not be with a Utopia provider if living in a Utopia area!

delusion FTL
@mcleodusa.net

delusion FTL

Anon

Re: And they are running commercials all the time!

What you need to do is have one of the local news channels consumer tips or consumer protection reporters do a little comparison between cost/service for utopia/qwest/comcast

morbo
Complete Your Transaction
join:2002-01-22
00000

1 recommendation

morbo

Member

qwest should...

qwest should freaking buy utopia and go hog wild.

SlickEnW
Premium Member
join:2003-01-21
Seattle, WA

SlickEnW

Premium Member

Re: qwest should...

Hog wild indeed

The Beer
I Love It When A Plan Comes Together
Premium Member
join:2001-07-24
Lincoln, NE

The Beer to morbo

Premium Member

to morbo
I assume they would buy it, then cap it to DSL speeds like they do in areas where they have FTTH
EPS4
join:2008-02-13
Hingham, MA

EPS4

Member

Re: qwest should...

Well, you know, you need to have a "consistent user experience"

woodward
XMission Internet
join:2000-12-28
Salt Lake City, UT

woodward to morbo

Member

to morbo
said by morbo:

qwest should freaking buy utopia and go hog wild.
They don't have to. They are welcome to offer service on the UTOPIA network, as is Comcast. They have simply refused, and chosen instead to litigate against it.
Expand your moderator at work
iansltx
join:2007-02-19
Austin, TX

iansltx to woodward

Member

to woodward

Re: qwest should...

So Qwest obviously isn't competing on price or features in that area. How about Comcast? Any sweet deals to keep customers on their system? FiOS-calss competitive strategy (DOCSIS 3 coming, Blast already here?) or no? Trying to litgate is just disgusting, though when a municipality comes in there's no wink wink nudge nudge collusion between telco and cableco...

RayW
Premium Member
join:2001-09-01
Layton, UT

RayW

Premium Member

I want UTOPIA!!!

But talking to my city rep, they can not get it to me in the current wave, they had to scale back deployment since the revenue stream proposed in the beginning was cut off due to Qwest buying a law that prohibited muni's from doing anything more than providing a pipe.

Love how some people say that Utopia is failing and that is what all muni's do, yet they ignore the small detail that it took a bought law to cripple Utopia so that it no longer had the initial planned revenue to do as well as originally planned.

batterup
I Can Not Tell A Lie.
Premium Member
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ

batterup

Premium Member

Turn out the lights the party is over.

Would you like some grape Kool-Aid? I love it I was right and you got free Kool-Aid. Build a network with your tax dollars then sell it to a private company that will make make politicians rich and you pay for it.
quote:
The public network wasn't working, as a business, Christensen says. There were many ISPs on the network, and they were competing with each other on price. "It was a race to the bottom."
»www.isp-planet.com/busin ··· ovo.html

delusion FTL
@mcleodusa.net

delusion FTL

Anon

Re: Turn out the lights the party is over.

You were right about what?

Let see
Iprovo bought a failing incumbent. They did not create a service out of the air it was already there. Yes they improved it but you would not say they built it.

Politicians get rich when you pay for a network to get sold to a private company? Most ignorant comment i've read all day period. It show's a fundamental lack of ability to reason and learn.

Finally Iprovo is/was not Utopia, they are not really related at all.

And finally what do you want politicans to do with your tax dollars:
Option 1: build a pretty new building with expensive landscaping and art collections in a funky expensive architecture
Option 2: build a fiber network for internet access and then sell it to a private company to provide fast and cheap internet access.

batterup
I Can Not Tell A Lie.
Premium Member
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ

batterup

Premium Member

Re: Turn out the lights the party is over.

said by delusion FTL :



And finally what do you want politicans to do with your tax dollars:

I want them not to take my dollars and give it to political contributors.

yolarry
join:2007-12-29
Creston, WV

yolarry

Member

HA-HA

Give me 12mbps of speed or I slit this tech guy throat!
tmc8080
join:2004-04-24
Brooklyn, NY

tmc8080

Member

hit the fan

sooner rather than later the shit will hit the fan in qwest territory... regulators will be sick and tired of excuses why qwest is at the bottom of the barrel in updating it's broadband internet services. other providers will eventually gain a foot in the door to qwest' most profitable markets and rights of way will be granted. it is just a matter of time now.. fight it all you want qwest, competition IS coming.

Conlan
@omcastbusiness.net

Conlan

Anon

Qwest

What Qwest has been pulling here in Utah is nothing short of criminal. In late 2002, prior to building our new home, we called Qwest about DSL availability . They assured me that DSL would be available by the end of next year (2003) SIX YEARS later, we still are being LIED to by Qwest and are stuck with either dial-up or wireless, at the same time Qwest has successfully blocked any attempt for other companies to provide us with broadband. Dial-up? this is 2008, almost 2009.....ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

RayW
Premium Member
join:2001-09-01
Layton, UT

RayW

Premium Member

Re: Qwest

said by Conlan:

What Qwest has been pulling here in Utah is nothing short of criminal. In late 2002, prior to building our new home, we called Qwest about DSL availability . They assured me that DSL would be available by the end of next year (2003) SIX YEA..............
According to one tech at the DSLAM (yes, I know, field techs are worthless and know nothing), the box was put in place for my area because of two state level elected types who lived in our area at that time (not in so few words, but that was what I got out of the conversation, which could be why it took sales 4-6 months to realize we had it). Otherwise I probably would be tagging my posts with Comcast also.

Conlan
@omcastbusiness.net

Conlan

Anon

re: qwest

"sooner rather than later the shit will hit the fan in qwest territory... regulators will be sick and tired of excuses why qwest is at the bottom of the barrel in updating it's broadband internet services. other providers will eventually gain a foot in the door to qwest' most profitable markets and rights of way will be granted. it is just a matter of time now.. fight it all you want qwest, competition IS coming".
I hope you're right. If regulators need testimony of Qwest's dishonest business practices, i can provide them with plenty of it.

Mordemox
@137.201.247.x

Mordemox

Anon

Availability

At this moment, I am bogged down by a crappy T1 that is shared with my ENTIRE apartment community in Pleasant Grove. My games are hitting 800-20000ms ping times! Mainly my beloved World of Warcraft, and playing is NOT fun when you lag.

Does Mstar make their network available to apartments/condos? My contract is up in February, and I will be moving out. I HATE this internet and will search high and low for anything better. I would like to know where mstar provides their much needed service.