 |
 | | | Re: This is a big rip off!!! $150 for 50Mbps is not worth it! Big fat ripoff! | |
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| |  CabalPremium
join:2007-01-21
Austin, TX
 ·Suddenlink
| Re: This is a big rip off!!! $150 is the early adopter price. Normal users will have it available (at 15, 20, etc Mbps) for the standard $42 when details are nailed down.
--
Interested in open source engine management for your Subaru? | |
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| |  ScreeIn the pipe 5 by 5
join:2001-04-24
Mount Laurel, NJ
·Comcast
| said by gate1975mlm:$150 for 50Mbps is not worth it! Big fat ripoff! AND 250 gb/month cap? Indeed! | |
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| | | Considering a DS3 would cost $2,000/mo+ the $150 doesn't sound so bad. Then again $150/mo sounds expensive when you don't understand what bandwidth really cost. | |
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| | | | Re: This is a big rip off!!! I think you meant to say that 150 dollars a month sounds expensive when you do understand what bandwidth really costs. Right?
Sorry, but raw bandwidth is dirt cheap, it's delivering it to consumers using expensive means (copper/coax) that is expensive.
Comcast's costs to upstream that 50mbit burst is very inexpensive, their costs to offer that speed connection over their coax network to thousands of users without setting caps and throttling is very expensive. | |
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| | | | | Re: This is a big rip off!!! No, the REAL cost of bandwidth includes the delivery. Stop comparing bandwidth pricing from carriers and webhosting companies that whore out every bit of bandwidth they have. | |
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| | | | | | Re: This is a big rip off!!! I'm not comparing web hosting companies, but thanks for that completely incorrect stab in the dark.
50/50 connection
60 dollars a month
500GB allowance (overages allowed)
»www.xmission.com/products/connec···/utopia/
Services like this can (and do) happen anywhere your favorite cable and phone company don't sue to keep the status quo.
Thanks for trying though. It sucks realizing just how bad our incumbent duopolies take advantage of us though and try to get us to believe the crap you're spewing. | |
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| | | | | | | Re: This is a big rip off!!! said by delusion ftl :
50/50 connection
60 dollars a month
500GB allowance (overages allowed)
Utopia is not doing as well as planned. Last I heard, they are just barely breaking even. From that we can conclude that the cost to provide a 50/50 connection is greater than 60/mo.
And if the Utopian Horn Of Plenty is as you suggest, why do they need to cap at 500GB? | |
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|  BF69Premium
join:2004-07-28
Camden, TN | said by fonzbear2000:If you want this you'll have to pay $150/month. No thanks! Well compared to Hughesnet charging $350 a month for 5( as in FIVE ) Mbps( and also capping usage at 500 MB per day ) it's great deal. | |
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| | what is the point of 50Mbps with a 250gb cap?????????? what is the point of 50Mbps with a 250gb cap??????????
and what will the price be? | |
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| | | Re: what is the point of 50Mbps with a 250gb cap?????????? Right! | |
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|  jt4
@comcast.net | the average user will never go over the 250gb cap. those caps are in place for people running multi computer and download music and movies all day everyday. | |
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|  ThrowDemsOutIf you can't convince 'em, confuse 'emPremium
join:2002-03-03
Mullica Hill, NJ
kudos:4 | said by Joe12345678:what is the point of 50Mbps with a 250gb cap?????????? and what will the price be? 1st of all speed and volume(bytes transferred) are 2 different things. People can want a fast link without needing to download or upload 100's of GB of data.
2nd of all Comcast, when it cuts an area over to Docsis 3, will be buying a HUGE increase in the capability to handle more upload traffic on a node. When cutovers occur they may very well RAISE the caps for those areas. The current 250GB announced cap is not cut in stone. It can be adjusted later.
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page
Ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk? | |
|
| | | | Re: what is the point of 50Mbps with a 250gb cap?????????? The fact they are imposing a cap at all was reason enough for me to order an alternative high speed service. I can't wait to make the switch in a few days. Too bad after having Comcast for 8 years. If I want to stream and download all day, so WHAT??? If it's legal what I'm doing, fine. We talk about network abusers. We need to define abusers. Comcast needs to define abusers. I don't care if I'm going to use 250gb or not. It's the principle of the matter. Impose on those of us that don't abuse the network, rather than fix the real problem (in a way that doesn't bite you legally - florida cough cough). | |
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| | | Rob_Premium
join:2008-07-16
Mary Esther, FL Reviews:
 ·Vonage
1 edit | Re: what is the point of 50Mbps with a 250gb cap?????????? the ones abusing are the RIAA and the MPAA not the average user.
also, the cap would be higher on the D3.0 tier. (remember, folks, it's about CONTROL!!)
why I use peerguardian, too! »phoenixlabs.org/pg2/
-Rob
--
»www.cband.info our internet radio station. | |
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| | | | fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3 | Re: what is the point of 50Mbps with a 250gb cap?????????? said by Rob_:the ones abusing are the RIAA and the MPAA not the average user. really?? How? are they sending people to your home to down loa endless porn on your connections or what? | |
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| | | | | Rob_Premium
join:2008-07-16
Mary Esther, FL Reviews:
·Vonage
| Re: what is the point of 50Mbps with a 250gb cap?????????? no, it's about controlling what you see, say and do on the internet. trust me, the RIAA and MPAA only have one intrest in mind, money.
-Rob
--
»www.cband.info our internet radio station. | |
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| | | | | | fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3 | Re: what is the point of 50Mbps with a 250gb cap?????????? said by Rob_:no, it's about controlling what you see, say and do on the internet. trust me, the RIAA and MPAA only have one intrest in mind, money. -Rob The XXAA could care less if I chat on Yahoo.. send email, they could care less if I play games, or work from home. They could care less if I maintain my websites.. they could care less about all that stuff.. they just don't want people freely distributing the work that is protected by their copyrights... ie: music, videos, and movies.
Do they want to control that? Sure.. it's there's to say how it gets sent out all over the world. | |
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| | | fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3 | No... comcast doesn't need to "define abusers"... they already did and it caused an uproar. So, they now treat all customers the same. You all asked for it.. you will now get what you asked for. you have 250GB, use it how you please.
Where did it ever say that the internet would be some vast, no limits, resource that could be used for eternity with out some sort of limits?
The model and use of the internet is evolving; everyone here says that. So, with evolution comes many other changes. If the internet is going to be the "catch all of everything" over night, the networks won't handle it. No one can sit here with a straight face and say that it can.
Besides, if the internet IS the catch all, and it's worth that much to you, and it's taking the place of everything else, its only natural that the model and pricing of things will shift with it as well. People have to stop looking at the internet as the next ticket to no-cost everything; it's not.
Your alternative connection, by the way, will most likely see a cap as well soon. AT&T is talking about it, (#1 provider right now) as is Frontier and their 5gb cap, just about every cable company, cellular company, etc. Verizon WILL follow suit as well.
In case people haven't noticed, the economy is in the shitter right now, MAJORLY in the shitter. Along with that comes tightening of the belts. Be glad they are still rolling out upgrades to the plant as it is in the 'can't-borrow' economy these days.
Really people, it's time to wake up and smell the homeless... they're in your own back yard.. there is much more to life than cheap internet.. however, the crap out there that is causing problems is also going to cause companies everywhere to tighten their belts at the same time.. and that means it will affect you in every way. | |
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| |  RARPSL
join:1999-12-08
Suffern, NY | said by ThrowDemsOut:Comcast, when it cuts an area over to Docsis 3, will be buying a HUGE increase in the capability to handle more upload traffic on a node. When cutovers occur they may very well RAISE the caps for those areas. The current 250GB announced cap is not cut in stone. It can be adjusted later. What is their CURRENT speed Max? Lets say that it is 20Mbs with the aforementioned 250GB/month cap. That means that a FAIR cap for 50Mbs should be 675GB (ie: 250% of the 20Mbs cap to give the SAME download time capability). I measure the cap not as a xGB volume but as a download capacity measured in download time (ie: I get x minutes/month of full speed downloading thus as my speed goes up, so should my cap in AT LEAST the same ratio). | |
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| | |  bentand IngaPremium
join:2004-10-04
Loveland, CO
·Comcast
| Re: what is the point of 50Mbps with a 250gb cap?????????? said by RARPSL:I measure the cap not as a xGB volume but as a download capacity measured in download time... You're the only one.
--
»www.lp.org/issues/family-budget
"That government is best which governs least" - Thoreau | |
|
 ztmikeMark for moderationPremium
join:2001-08-02
Michigan City, IN | Pointless. lol, the mod locked that thread already.
But why the upgrade in speeds when Comcast will be imposing a cap next month?
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ZZPERFORMANCE | |
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| ThrowDemsOutIf you can't convince 'em, confuse 'emPremium
join:2002-03-03
Mullica Hill, NJ
kudos:4 | Re: Pointless. said by ztmike:But why the upgrade in speeds when Comcast will be imposing a cap next month? Why not?
1st of all speed and volume(bytes transferred) are 2 different things. People can want a fast link without needing to download or upload 100's of GB of data.
2nd of all Comcast, when it cuts an area over to Docsis 3, will be buying a HUGE increase in the capability to handle more upload traffic on a node. When cutovers occur they may very well RAISE the caps for those areas. The current 250GB announced cap is not cut in stone. It can be adjusted later.
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page
Ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk? | |
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| | ztmikeMark for moderationPremium
join:2001-08-02
Michigan City, IN
1 edit | Re: Pointless. said by ThrowDemsOut:said by ztmike:But why the upgrade in speeds when Comcast will be imposing a cap next month? Why not? Call me crazy..but upgrading speeds when their network can't even handle what they have now is down right stupid, not to mention the 50mbps customers CURRENTLY in MINN are still limited to the 250cap they are treated no different than anybody else on the slower speed tiers, which is bullshit. If I pay $150+ JUST FOR THE INTERNET, I would expect a world class service.
I would tell Comcast to shove that 50meg tier up their ass.
--
ZZPERFORMANCE | |
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| | | ThrowDemsOutIf you can't convince 'em, confuse 'emPremium
join:2002-03-03
Mullica Hill, NJ
kudos:4 | Re: Pointless. said by ztmike:but upgrading speeds when their network can't even handle what they have now is down right stupid, The network issues are all in the last mile and not the backbone. So upgrading to Docsis 3 does allow their network to handle an increased load.
said by ztmike: not to mention the 50mbps customers CURRENTLY in MINN are still limited to the 250cap they are treated no different than anybody else on the slower speed tiers, I don't know that statement is true or not. Do you have any links or posts from Minn trial areas that says they won't get an exemption to the cap or a different cap?
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page
Ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk? | |
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| | | |  CjaicemanPremium,MVM
join:2004-10-12
Parker, CO
kudos:2
·Comcast Workplace
1 edit | Re: Pointless. said by ThrowDemsOut: not to mention the 50mbps customers CURRENTLY in MINN are still limited to the 250cap they are treated no different than anybody else on the slower speed tiers, I don't know that statement is true or not. Do you have any links or posts from Minn trial areas that says they won't get an exemption to the cap or a different cap? I will actually take this one, YES, they are under the SAME 250GB cap that everyone else is. This review states that the user called Comcast and they stated the cap is about 200GB/month (this was before the 250GB announcement). The review can be found here: »Review of Comcast by apok86 | |
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|  espaethDigital PlumberPremium,MVM
join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
kudos:2
 ·Clear Wireless
| said by ztmike:But why the upgrade in speeds when Comcast will be imposing a cap next month? Restated: the only thing slowing you down from using more bandwidth every month is the raw speed of the link that you're using to download?
There are lots of people for which this service works incredibly well, myself included.
The download speed is downright magical when it comes to grabbing ISOs, like the Trixbox and PBX In a Flash images I grabbed a couple weeks ago. The 5mbps upload is also a huge bonus.
My usage did go up since I signed up for the service in June, largely due to me downloading things simply for the wow-factor of 50mbps, but it's still well below that 250GB cap:
month rx | tx | total
------------------------+---------------+---------------
Oct '07 22,654 MB | 2,236 MB | 24,891 MB
Nov '07 21,906 MB | 2,021 MB | 23,927 MB
Dec '07 49,518 MB | 2,559 MB | 52,077 MB
Jan '08 30,174 MB | 2,854 MB | 33,028 MB
Feb '08 24,748 MB | 2,042 MB | 26,790 MB
Mar '08 45,936 MB | 3,215 MB | 49,152 MB
Apr '08 52,197 MB | 4,028 MB | 56,225 MB
May '08 51,622 MB | 2,794 MB | 54,416 MB
Jun '08 52,876 MB | 9,502 MB | 62,379 MB
Jul '08 65,720 MB | 17,952 MB | 83,672 MB
Aug '08 61,057 MB | 12,614 MB | 73,672 MB
Sep '08 45,594 MB | 8,390 MB | 53,984 MB
------------------------+---------------+---------------
estimated 77,060 MB | 14,180 MB | 91,240 MB
| |
|
| | No thanks I will keep my slower speed inless of caps. | |
|
Reviews:
·ProLog
 ·Verizon Online DSL
·voip.ms
| Not Just the Comcast Cost Another cost, even though it is a onetime cost, is the home network upgrade.
For exapmle, running on a Linksys WRT54G, the max wireless speed is well below 50Mbps, probably more like 20Mbps or so. Also not sure what the maximum WAN port speed is but I would guess it is below 50Mbps.
So anyone upgrading to this new speed may have to make a bunch of hardware changes to their router and wireless cards to take advantage of the 50Mbps tier.
--
The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits. | |
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| ThrowDemsOutIf you can't convince 'em, confuse 'emPremium
join:2002-03-03
Mullica Hill, NJ
kudos:4 | Re: Not Just the Comcast Cost said by pende_tim:Another cost, even though it is a onetime cost, is the home network upgrade. For exapmle, running on a Linksys WRT54G, the max wireless speed is well below 50Mbps, probably more like 20Mbps or so. Also not sure what the maximum WAN port speed is but I would guess it is below 50Mbps. So anyone upgrading to this new speed may have to make a bunch of hardware changes to their router and wireless cards to take advantage of the 50Mbps tier. Good point. Making use of the new capability could involve large increases in costs for the homeowner. And even if they stay with lower speeds on multiple laptops/desktops, the need to upgrade routers will almost be a necessity.
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page
Ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk? | |
|
| jaminus
join:2004-10-14
Arlington, VA | Your WRT54G's WAN port should be capable of nearly 100mbps full duplex. Processing power is another story--a lot of high-bandwidth TCP streams could cripple the router. Wonder if any FiOS users with 50mbps have had router-imposed slowdowns when they max out their connections. | |
|
EPS
join:2008-02-13
Hingham, MA | New England Hm, so the new tier will be going head-to-head with FiOS I suppose. (And possibly the Fairpoint "FAST" network-thingy? Comcast is the MSO for that part of NH, right?) | |
|
|  tenpin784I Went To The Dark Side?
join:2001-03-30
New Durham, NH | Re: New England Yea, unfortuantly.
But I bet Comcast is laughing because Fairpoint can't even get off the ground, and I doubt they will even do any kind of increase. | |
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| | EPS
join:2008-02-13
Hingham, MA | Re: New England Yes, I'm sure Comcast was very pleased to see the Fairpoint deal go through. | |
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| | can't wait i can't wait for this happen the more speed the better. Who says you have to be a FiOS area to get higher speeds?
I don't see verizon raising their speed in my area. The fastest they can give me is 1.5 download. | |
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|  dvd536as Mr. Pink as they comePremium
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ
kudos:4 | Re: can't wait said by aguiar0016:i can't wait for this happen the more speed the better. Who says you have to be a FiOS area to get higher speeds? You do to get faster UPLOADS!
--
When I gez aju zavateh na nalechoo more new yonooz tonigh molinigh - Ken Lee | |
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| | $$$? Let's see... FiOS 50/20 for $90? or Comcast 50/what? for $150?
As Comcast always says: "We don't compete on price."  | |
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|  aaronwtPremium
join:2004-11-07
Woodbridge, VA | Re: $$$? Let's see... Definitely no competition to my 50/20 tier at FIOS for $90. I get 50mbs speeds any time of day, any day of the week. I doubt that will be the case with Comcast. | |
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| | espaethDigital PlumberPremium,MVM
join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
kudos:2 Reviews:
·Clear Wireless
| Re: $$$? Let's see... said by aaronwt:Definitely no competition to my 50/20 tier at FIOS for $90. I get 50mbs speeds any time of day, any day of the week. I doubt that will be the case with Comcast. That's been the case here in the Minneapolis market. I can hit 50mbps from my dedicated boxes in Chicago anytime I try. | |
|
| | | aaronwtPremium
join:2004-11-07
Woodbridge, VA Reviews:
 ·Verizon FiOS
| Re: $$$? Let's see... said by espaeth:said by aaronwt:Definitely no competition to my 50/20 tier at FIOS for $90. I get 50mbs speeds any time of day, any day of the week. I doubt that will be the case with Comcast. That's been the case here in the Minneapolis market. I can hit 50mbps from my dedicated boxes in Chicago anytime I try. In my area when I was on their fastest tier, every day, in the evening, the speeds would slow to a crawl from all the people online at the same time. | |
|
| | | 50/20 for $90 =/
over here in Ventura CA it's $140  | |
|
Reviews:
·Comcast
1 edit | my 6 meg connection Sure my 6 meg connection sounds slow but gets the job done...
and its a lot faster than most residential lines. I dont find an issue with it... ive been able to stream HD over it... granted I have to have no one else on my network...
I guess it just depends on what bandwidth really means to you...
If I had 150 a month for internet id buy it... but as of this writing i dont so no need for it... besides if one of my boxxes gets hacked then I dont have to worry about going over my cap in however long it takes a 50 meg connection to reach 250 gig... as a 6 meg connection would obviously take longer to hit that cap and hopefully id notice by then... lmao | |
|
| | No Thanks I currently have 10 Meg with Charter. While not the top-rated ISP, I haven't had any downtime, and I don't have any caps (knock on wood). While I might not be able to download a new Ubuntu ISO in 30 seconds, I can get it as fast as I need it, without having to worry about how many hours of xbox live I have played. I think a bit slower with no caps is where it's at. | |
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| EPS
join:2008-02-13
Hingham, MA | Re: No Thanks Well if you have Charter you probably don't need to worry about Comcast offering you anything you don't want. | |
|
| | 50mbps, SURE! $150, nah. I'd love to see the 50mbps come to my area. However, at a ripe $150 it is not nearly feasible. I would expect a connection with such a high download rate to be counter balanced with some upload. 10:1 ratio? cmon, that is ridiculous. Right now I have 8/2 plan (4:1). I am plenty happy with it, and so it everyone else in the household. $150 connection deserves a little more than a 5mbps up...
just my 2 cents.
I hope by the end of 2010 when the this should be completely rolled out that the price of this will drop dramatically. At that time I'll reconsider the service. I'd probably wait a while before going all out, see how the Comcast DOCSIS 3.0 provided modems turn out, how personal bought ones are... SB's have been solid performers, hopefully that will be carried through with the 6120. | |
|
| espaethDigital PlumberPremium,MVM
join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
kudos:2 Reviews:
·Clear Wireless
| Re: 50mbps, SURE! $150, nah. said by swhitney2003:Right now I have 8/2 plan (4:1). I am plenty happy with it, and so it everyone else in the household. $150 connection deserves a little more than a 5mbps up... The existing Minneapolis market 50/5 deployment is using hardware that does not support upstream channel bonding. I suspect upstream speeds are going to be limited until upstream bonding capable hardware starts hitting production lines and becomes real.
You can only deploy the hardware that's available to you. | |
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| | | | Re: 50mbps, SURE! $150, nah. Well in that case I will wait for the technology to become a consumer's reality | |
|
| | | | | Re: 50mbps, SURE! $150, nah. You could always get it and drop the cable TV to save on the price and then just stream stuff off the internet couldn't you? Been reading a lot of stuff is becoming available online now. | |
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| | | | bentand IngaPremium
join:2004-10-04
Loveland, CO Reviews:
·Comcast
| Re: 50mbps, SURE! $150, nah. said by JerryTongue:You could always get it and drop the cable TV to save on the price and then just stream stuff off the internet couldn't you? Been reading a lot of stuff is becoming available online now. And you just NAILED the single biggest reason Comcast is putting the cap at 250GB. Ad revenue on TV = big $, ad revenue on internet = $0.
--
»www.lp.org/issues/family-budget
"That government is best which governs least" - Thoreau | |
|
| | | | | | I'm not the only one in the household that may use TV. So that choice cannot be made. And plus, watching TV online will just make me hit that cap so much more quickly | |
|
 heat84Bit Torrent Apologist
join:2004-03-11
Fort Lauderdale, FL | Even U-Verse is a Joke compared to this and FIOS. Why is every ISP in the world except AT&T upgrading their infrastructure. Even U-Verse is a joke compared to this and FIOS. | |
|
| | | Re: Even U-Verse is a Joke compared to this and FIOS. said by heat84:Why is every ISP in the world except AT&T upgrading their infrastructure. Even U-Verse is a joke compared to this and FIOS. he-he, the WORLD is a far larger place than just the US of A.
talking about UP/Down ratio's, you want to think yourself lucky at 10:1 ,you might try thinking about the real world outside your backdoor.
look at the likes of the UK Virgin Media cable the only UK wide cable operator and their upcoming 34:1 ratio, thats right 50Mbit/s down and an insulting 1.5Mbit upload rate on the new Docsis3 plan and we have the config file their using in the trial/pre-rollout to prove it too.
The UK consumer CANT just go out and buy and plug-in any 3rd party off the shelf DOCSIS* kit that comes to market, its against the Virgin Media T&C.
they have no other choice but to rent every single bit of kit off vm, no exceptions.
and that kit is crap, you cant even have or purchase from VM DVB-C PC cards and valid subscriptions to use in your PC LAN kit to re-broadcast your subscribed transport streams, think your hard done by now?
as for the DS3 bonding upload/stream points, your forgetting docsis3 is based on docsis2.0B and that gives you a total of around 30Mbit/s upstream per channel (maybe slightly less usable in your 6 Mhz part of the world, we in the Uk use 8Mhz) so your 5Mbit upload is perfectly fine, even for the old docsis1.1 you can have at least 10 Mbit/s upload after taking in to consideration your US freqs and settings overhead.... | |
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| | heat84Bit Torrent Apologist
join:2004-03-11
Fort Lauderdale, FL | Re: Even U-Verse is a Joke compared to this and FIOS. When I said the world I meant the world. Maybe all is an exaggeration most ISP's are or will soon be capable of faster speeds than U-Verse. | |
|
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
| reconsider price. The closest comparison is Verizon. If docsis 1.0-2.0 is any indication of the kind of shared infrastructure that varies the last mile bandwidth of cablemodems $150 is sort of out of line when compared to a FTTP connection of similar bandwdith and priced at least $10-60 less than Comcast's proposed tier price. I'm thinking that this will have to get to around $100 some how, some way, as the market will not pay $150 for internet, especially most residential customers **unless the idea is to cancel your cable tv subscriptions and get OTA digital broadcast tv, and supplement with p2p/internet delivered content** | |
|
| | Decoupling Speed and Bandwidth I'd like to be able to purchase speed and bandwidth "separately". I might want As Fast As I Can Go but be quite content to have 50 GB on tap each month.
Even better would be automatic rollover: you know, $20 for the first $50GB and $5 for each of the next $10 GB but if I hit $15, I am automatically moved to the next bandwidth tier (say, $35 for the first 120 GB). Or whatever. | |
|
| | outages Ah... and here I was wondering why I had multi-hour outages Tuesday and Wednesday mornings.
Oh well, the VZ teaser DSL I ordered as backup / redundancy will be good to have for the next time a lightning strike takes out a node. | |
|
 jazzy_
join:2004-01-27
Charleston, SC | hmm I've been getting a solid 40mbps from Comcast for many months now. | |
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| | | Re: hmm $150 a month is a ripoff. | |
|
| | huh?? Anyone have a little more information on this? The linked thread has 3 posts and it's locked... Wouldn't you have to upgrade the modems to docsis3 modems on users ends in order to see those midnight speeds? Sounds fishy... | |
|
 BSD24Tier 4Premium
join:2008-04-30
Middleboro, MA |  Prices will change with time
--
BSD | |
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This is a big rip off!!!
