When Will U-Verse Customers See Faster Speeds?AT&T tells us pair bonding is still on schedule, but analysts not so sure.... ( old news - 04:09PM Friday Oct 03 2008) tags: dsl · alternatives · bandwidth · telco · Comcast · AT&T U-VerseWhile the 6-10Mbps offered by AT&T's "next-generation" U-Verse service might be plenty for standard users, it's still not going to be enough to battle cable on the marketing front -- particularly once cable begins deploying DOCSIS 3.0 technology. To that end, AT&T has been promising for the last few years that they're going to offer faster speeds via bonded VDSL2. However, early reports indicate this hasn't been an easy process so far -- with some estimating that AT&T U-Verse customers may not see faster speeds until late 2009 or even 2010. All U-Verse customers are not created equal. We've seen reports of U-Verse gateways syncing at nearly 100Mbps, though we're talking about only 1,400 feet from the DSLAM. It seems that 25Mbps is working well at distances of 3,000 feet; distances higher than 5,000 feet are where the trouble starts. Of course many users are further than 3,000 feet -- and with AT&T now offering dual-HD streams, things are quickly getting pinched. This pinch is why AT&T recently had to change their TOS to better manner customer speed expectations. AT&T's decision to run FTTN instead of FTTH has remained a sticking point with most analysts. "Fiber to the node (FTTN) is just DSL from a cabinet and a press release," says industry analyst Dave Burstein, who believes that cable will "clobber" FTTN, provided cable prices competitively. Where Comcast faces U-Verse competition in Florida, they're already beating back U-Verse with their last-gen 16Mbps "Blast!" tier, saving their heavier guns (pre-cert 50Mbps DOCSIS 3.0) for areas that see FiOS deployment. However, that service costs $150. Pair bonded VDSL2 will be AT&T's retort, with AT&T enlisting a second copper pair to each house to increase speeds. AT&T says they should be able to double the bandwidth they're currently delivering, though other estimates peg the speed bump at closer to 25-30%. Others still insist estimates are premature, since we're still in the testing phase. To offer bonded VDSL, AT&T needs to assign two DSLAM ports to each customer, and deploy a special residential gateway outside the house that can terminate two pairs -- assuming they're available. But things are moving slowly. "As far as I can tell, nobody has seen a bonded VDSL2 modem ready for the field, while those in lab trials are having problems," says Burstein. One vendor tells Burstein early samples "are not up to speed," while training installers and support will also take time. "There's almost guaranteed to be a significant delay after the manufacturers get them working," he says, and they aren't working yet. In 2007, AT&T promised bonded VDSL2 would arrive sometime in 2008, though Burstein thinks that's doubtful. "Bonding doesn't work yet, and they be lucky to be able to do it in late 2009 in any quantity," he says. Given that many cable companies are taking a wait and see approach with DOCSIS 3.0 upgrades, that may be ok for AT&T -- assuming the general consumer remains happy with 6-10Mbps downstream and 1Mbps upstream. AT&T insists that things are on schedule. "We're planning an initial launch of pair bonding by the end of the year, and we've started testing on track with that schedule," AT&T spokesman Seth Bloom tells me. "It is worth noting that pair bonding isn't necessary for all customers, nor are things like 2 HD streams or faster Internet tiers dependent on pair bonding," insists Bloom. In AT&T's opinion, pair bonding is more about selectively reaching out to customers at greater distances, given not all homes will see an available extra pair. "We'll use pair bonding where needed," says Bloom, "as a way to expand our U-verse service area to customers at longer loop lengths." "It will allow us to reach a broader customer base," he says. Theoretically, bonded VDSL2 may be able to provide 40Mbps and 5,000 feet but again -- that's yet to be proven in the field. Time will tell how exactly AT&T chooses to deploy the technology and when, but for most U-Verse users, anything faster than 6-10Mbps could still be a year or two out. A longer delay in getting this next step in "Project Lightspeed's" evolution into the field could make cable operators very, very happy. Related:- Kentucky Co-op Delivers ADSL2+, HDTV
- AT&T Sets New U-Verse Goals
- Wisconsin Residents Have Concerns About U-Verse
- Verizon: Offering FiOS In AT&T Turf 'Logical'
- U-Verse, Whole Home DVR Expand
- AT&T's New 18Mbps U-Verse Tier
- 18Mbps U-Verse
- Verizon: Cut Your Landline To Save Money
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  ninjatutle Premium
join:2006-01-02 San Ramon, CA
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
1 edit | Who are all these geeks crying for mo speed? Seriously, what would you want 100MB up and down for? What will you be able to do that you can't do now?
P2P seems like the only thing that comes to mind... 
My little mobile 3G card can even handle my needs. Minus the caps... | |
|  |  sameshtdd
join:2006-01-04 Teaneck, NJ
| Re: Who are all these geeks crying for mo speed? You have to remember that with U-Verse, both TV and interent are on an IP network. So, in order to provide service to more than 2 HD TVs in a house and have the same speeds they provide NOW (let alone faster), they need to implement faster DSL speeds from the node. | |
|  |  |   sousademiami
join:2003-02-04 Miami, FL
·Comcast
·AT&T Southeast
2 edits | Re: Who are all these geeks crying for mo speed? Don't try and reason with him. He's just walking the company line for ISPs to try and convince users progress and innovation are bad so that you don't bother demanding things like "value" in your products.
EDIT: I apologize for my run-on sentence. -- OASAASLLS | |
|  |  |  |  |   ninjatutle Premium
join:2006-01-02 San Ramon, CA
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
| Re: Who are all these geeks crying for mo speed? You cant do video conferencing now with your current bb connection? Or do you think you will magically earn more income with a faster connection to provide these setups for your family.
I can watch a security feed from my family's business, a feed from my house and send/receive emails without skipping a beat on my 3G card. Granted, thats pushing the limits of my 3G but easily done at home.
Didkins.. Off sight backup? Why don't you do daily incremental backups? Or are you also backing up your bootlegs  | |
|  |  |  |   Boogeyman Drive it like you stole it Premium join:2002-12-17 Huntsville, AL
| Re: Who are all these geeks crying for mo speed? 5 frames a sec of 340x200 does not a video conference make.
I think he's talking about multi stream higher resolutions, not some little box in the corner that looks like a cell phone cam if you full screen it. -- Im Your Boogeyman, Thats What I Am | |
|  |  |  |  |   ninjatutle Premium
join:2006-01-02 San Ramon, CA | Re: Who are all these geeks crying for mo speed? I don't know what type of setup you have, but I can do full duplexing on mine on a much bigger window  | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   funchords Hello Premium,MVM join:2001-03-11 Washington, DC
·Verizon Online DSL
·Skype
1 edit | said by ninjatutle :You cant do video conferencing now with your current bb connection? Or do you think you will magically earn more income with a faster connection to provide these setups for your family. I think that I can. I was doing it in 1995 both over dial-up and on direct modem-to-modem telephone connections. My friends were doing wireless SSTV at a rockin' 0.125 fps in 1981 (although I never got into that). Resolutions of 176 x 144 pixels and 352 x 288 pixel video were huge progress (think H323 and H324 protocols).
However, that's no comparison to three panels running 1366 x 768, one on each wall, bringing together distant grandparents, children, soldiers ... that would simply rock!
I'm so glad that you know what's best for everyone. Moore's Law is over. All the college kids can quit studying. Since everything that needs to be invented already has been, I'll just go home early for the weekend. Oh, wait -- I am home. I am WORKING from home. Gee, what enables me to do that?
Nice troll, though. -- Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon More features, more fun, Join BroadbandReports.com, it's free...
| |
|  |  |  |  |   ninjatutle Premium
join:2006-01-02 San Ramon, CA | Re: Who are all these geeks crying for mo speed? I'm glad you people think infrastructure magically comes out of thin air  | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   ninjatutle Premium
join:2006-01-02 San Ramon, CA | Re: Who are all these geeks crying for mo speed? I guess little lepercons and gnomes are erecting towers outta thin air too? | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   KrK Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy Premium join:2000-01-17 Tulsa, OK
·Cox HSI
·AT&T Southwest
| Re: Who are all these geeks crying for mo speed? said by ninjatutle :I guess little lepercons and gnomes are erecting towers outta thin air too? I doubt it, but it sometimes feels like at&t has trained the gnomes and leprechauns to come into our homes and take all the money out of our wallets and in return leave us a little bit more then thin air.... -- "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
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|  |  |  |  |  |   Uald
@bellsouth.net
from: ieolus 
| said by ninjatutle :I'm glad you people think infrastructure magically comes out of thin air It doesn't. Everybody knows that. What people forget though is we already paid for FTTH.
»www.newnetworks.com/BroadbandSca···ntro.htm
Starting in the early 1990's, driven by the Clinton-Gore Administrations desire to create a very high-speed network throughout America, the Bell phone companies claimed that instead of the government taking the lead role, the Bell companies would step up to the plate to rewire Americas homes and offices, schools and libraries with a fiber optic broadband network. It would replace the aging, 100-year old copper-based network with a glass-based fiber optic wire that could handle Americas broadband needs.
From 1993 through 1996, there were announcements and plans that would make anyone think that we were in the midst of a fiber optic revolution. In order to make the country believe that these networks were real, the phone companies spent almost a billion dollars on two groups, TELE-TV and Americast. Americast (the group formed by SBC, BellSouth, GTE, Ameritech and Disney to promote fiber optic/broadband content) was promising 68 million fiber optic homes in 28 states.
What was promised? By 2000, according to the Bell companies' annual reports, press releases and state filings, about 50 million households should have been rewired. California's Pacific Telesis (Pac Bell) promised to have 5.5 million households wired with fiber optic services, Ameritech; which covered 5 states including Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, Ohio and Wisconsin) promised 6 million homes by 2000, Bell Atlantic claimed 8.75 million homes, and NYNEX said 1.5-2 million by 1996. (Ameritech, Pac Bell, Bell Atlantic and NYNEX were four of the original Bell companies.)
WHAT WAS GOING TO PAY FOR THIS?
The local phone companies are regulated by the state public utility commissions. They are utilities, and offer essential services phone and data services. The utilities were regulated by controlling the companies profits, known as "rate of return". Remember, in the 1990s there was no competition of any consequence, and so the phone companies had a guaranteed income. It is still guaranteed in that if their profits fail to please, they ask for a price increase.
The plan was to simply get all 50 states to remove this old "rate of return" regulation with "deregulation", meaning the removal of regulation. In this case, it was also called "price caps", or "alternative regulations", or "incentive regulations", all of which would give the phone companies more money to pay for these upgrades.
From the customer side, in essence, these plans allowed the phone companies to either raise the price of specific services, or allowed the companies to not have to give back money for very profitable services. For example, "Calling Features", such as "Call Waiting" or "Call Forwarding", can cost customers $3-$5 a month, and yet cost less than ONE CENT to offer. They could also cut staff, take large tax write-offs for the aging equipment, and get a host of other perks.
(click link above to read the rest of the article)
They got their side of it, they got the deregulation they wanted, the tax incentives, the price caps on public utilities removed, they even talked the government out of doing something they were going to do instead. Meanwhile they feed you a story about how it's just impossible to wire America because we're all so spread out. Why is it they can't even wire our cities? Why can't you even get 100Mbps (heck, now Japan's going to start offering 1Gbps to the home for the price we pay for 6Mbps) in New York where the population density is much higher? Isn't population density the argument everybody loves to use for why we pay the same for speed that is 166 times slower? | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  qworster
join:2001-11-25 Los Angeles, CA 1 edit | Re: Who are all these geeks crying for mo speed? And let's not mention that Pennsylvania paid Bell half a BILLION DOLLARS for them to wire the state with fiber-and got NOTHING...ZERO for their money! | |
|  |  |  |   dadkins Can you do Blu? Premium,MVM join:2003-09-26 Hercules, CA
·Comcast
| Look nonja, learn how to read and spell... it's dadkins. I prefer full backups, incrementals have a higher fail rate, incase you didn't know - I think you just like to argue. 2 full images per month x 3 computers - let me add that up for you:
13GB(smallest image) x 3 computers = 39GB 39GB twice a month is 78GB. Tell me, how fast do you think I would be able to upload those?
As it stands, I use snail-mail because of bandwidth restrictions.  I use a whopping 30GB per month, even though I have a 16/2 connection. Now, it sure would be nice to be able to just point n click to send the images, but lack of speed is a hell of a deterrent.
Answer my question pal, why do YOU need Uverse? Speed = stealing... right? Yeah.  -- Think outside the Fox... Opera | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   ninjatutle Premium
join:2006-01-02 San Ramon, CA | Re: Who are all these geeks crying for mo speed? Who are you? His veep? My old comrade Didkins is harmless  | |
|  |   S_engineer
join:2007-05-16 Chicago, IL
·Comcast
| said by ninjatutle :Seriously, what would you want 100MB up and down for? What will you be able to do that you can't do now? Why would you want top stagnate technologies by not pushing the limits? We are currently being raped pricewise as it is with regards to speeds and usage.Your carriers are selling you on where you should surf...and capping you if you decide to use your "unlimited" access to it's full potential. By having low speeds they can justify their cap even more! | |
|  |  |  |   dadkins Can you do Blu? Premium,MVM join:2003-09-26 Hercules, CA
·Comcast
1 edit | *cough* off-site backups *cough*
Uploading 13-25GB system images is a royal pain with sub mb speeds. Even with my 2.2mbps upstream, it takes a while.
Let me ask you something friend, what do you need with Uverse? Scrap it and just get dialup. All anyone wants high speed for is stealing, right?
-- Think outside the Fox... Opera | |
|  |  |   Doctor Four My other vehicle is a TARDIS Premium join:2000-09-05 Dallas, TX
·AT&T U-Verse
·RoadRunner Cable
·AT&T Yahoo
| Re: Who are all these geeks crying for mo speed? said by dadkins :Let me ask you something friend, what do you need with Uverse? Scrap it and just get dialup. All anyone wants high speed for is stealing, right? Nice anti-troll there, Dadkins. I'll bet you left him speechless. -- "The trouble with computers, of course, is that they are very sophisticated idiots." - Doctor Who (from Robot)
| |
|  |  nasadude
join:2001-10-05 Rockville, MD
·Comcast
| said by ninjatutle :Seriously, what would you want 100MB up and down for? ... who cares? the majority of the US market isn't going to see speeds like that for years.
as much as we discuss "the need for speed" on these forums, it's an academic exercise - we just aren't going to see widespread, AFFORDABLE 100Mbps speeds for probably 5 years or longer.
the US broadband market sucks almost as much as our economy. | |
|  |  |   Boogeyman Drive it like you stole it Premium join:2002-12-17 Huntsville, AL
| Re: Who are all these geeks crying for mo speed? 5-7 years ago, 3/256 was the average high end and people were whining that we needed more.
We whined and got got enough attention to get what we wanted. If we didnt bitch about it back then, we wouldnt be seeing the 6/768-8/1 average high end we have now. -- Im Your Boogeyman, Thats What I Am | |
|  |  |  |  |   dadkins Can you do Blu? Premium,MVM join:2003-09-26 Hercules, CA
·Comcast
| Re: Who are all these geeks crying for mo speed? said by stomp357 : All I hear from you is how anyone wanting more speed is stealing. You yourself are using a broadband service. Since all you must do on the internet is email, & websurf (everything else is criminal, or network abuse according to you), just get dialup, or the slowest tiered broadband. Then you would have enough bandwidth, and not be bothered by the bandwidth robbing users. It's ok for him to have highspeed, because he's special! Everyone else with highspeed is a theif and steals everything... PERIOD! -- Think outside the Fox... Opera | |
|  |   maartena Nice'n Round. Premium join:2002-05-10 Orange, CA
·RoadRunner Cable
| said by ninjatutle :Seriously, what would you want 100MB up and down for? What will you be able to do that you can't do now? DOWNLOAD:
- Use Netflix to download DVD movies. It has gotten quite a popular service, especially the unlimited one that allows you to download unlimited for a monthly fee.
- Download backed up data from an online backup service to another PC.
- I have a MSDN account and test new Linux distros a lot. On average, I download 3 or 4 ISO's from Microsoft and 3 or 4 ISO's using Torrents for Linux distros.
- If you have a family of 4, and 4 computers in the house, you will be able to use the internet all at the same time, and everyone will actually enjoy high speed instead of one person clogging up the line backing up his PC to an online backup service.
- Videoconferencing with some quality, instead of stamp-format 320x200 video screens you can do through your current upload. And this goes hand in hand with family members clogging up the line, as that will screw it up.
- Work from home as if you are in the office, using VPN that is actually allowing you to access files on a work server directly as opposed to having to use RDP due to bandwidth restrictions. Additionally, you can download that presentation video from the work server in seconds instead of half an hour right before you walk out the door to a client.
- Other work benefits include: -- Printing directly to a color printer at work, after you are done with your big, colorful presentation that sends 128 Mb spool files to the printer. -- Directly accessing a database using a SQL front-end without having to use a public web interface, which is not always available with proprietary software.
- Keeping an eye on your business from home, having access to all 16 security cameras at once around the building, so you can immediatly see what is going on when you get the call that your alarm went off.
UPLOAD:
- Host more gameservers. (I host OpenTTD servers at home).
- Easily access your files, MP3's, etc, at a decent speed when you are on the road, in hotels, etc. For instance, pick up a few Netflix movies that you already downloaded at home but forgot to take with you.
- Use SlingBox with a decent videocompression rate, so I can watch my home-games when traveling for work.
- Use an online-backup service for my 30 Gb+ digital pictures that I really would hate to lose in a fire, without uploading it all taking 2 days.
- Actually be able to send large video files of your cousin's wedding over the internet using MSN or another easy to use messenger that your familymembers use.
Need I go on?
Most importantly: Allowing you, your partner, and your kids/other family members to do all of it at once, without one clogging things up for the other.
Why some people keep insisting that all you can do with faster bandwidth, is more illegal stuff, is beyond me. They have absolutely no grasp of what the internet can do for you, for your business, and that there are actually lots of completely legal business and home applications that will become a lot more easy to do with a lot of bandwidth.
For instance, I have long been considering an online backup service for my home, so we can upload all of our important stuff there, suchs as Mozy, which is only $4.95 a month for unlimited storage. I have more then 30 Gb of pictures, and ever since I got a nice DSLR camera, I sometimes come home with ANOTHER 2 Gb card filled with stuff, and it is growing rapidly.
Having to use that with 1 Mbps upload is.... unappealing, and time consuming. If I had say 10 Mbps upload, let alone 100 Mbps, it would be much easier to manage a backup system that backs up my wife's laptop, and my two computers of out most important stuff - totalling a good 60 gb or so - to an online service.
Why people have NO CLUE about what you can do with bandwidth without having to break the law.... is beyond me. | |
|  |  |  JasonX
join:2008-04-08 Houston, TX
| Re: Who are all these geeks crying for mo speed? said by maartena :I have long been considering an online backup service for my home, so we can upload all of our important stuff there, suchs as Mozy, which is only $4.95 a month for unlimited storage. ... Having to use that with 1 Mbps upload is.... unappealing, and time consuming. Actually, Mozy limits your upload speed to 1 Mbps max anyway, so higher speeds won't help you there (I'm a long time customer of theirs). That's one of the ways Mozy discourages abuse of the "unlimited" storage. The rest of your points are well taken, though. | |
|  |  |  |   maartena Nice'n Round. Premium join:2002-05-10 Orange, CA
·RoadRunner Cable
| Re: Who are all these geeks crying for mo speed? said by JasonX :Actually, Mozy limits your upload speed to 1 Mbps max anyway, so higher speeds won't help you there (I'm a long time customer of theirs). That's one of the ways Mozy discourages abuse of the "unlimited" storage. The rest of your points are well taken, though. Point taken. But there are other services costing more money that allow you to store at much faster speeds.
I actually have my own domain and full hosting for $9.95, and I can send at 10 Mbps to and from that host, which I tested with my work line which is 15/15 right now (soon 45/45).
I could setup my own backup system utilizing FTP - and for the MOST important stuff I already have. I have 100 Gb of space on that host, which should cover my 60 Gb of important stuff just fine.
As of late, I have been scanning and fixing old photographs, to create a family tree database that is digitized. The need for more bandwidth is everywhere, and I simply don't get why there are people that actually question what we do with out bandwidth because we want some more of it.
I don't do piracy (or at least RARELY) and quite frankly, it is of no ones business what I do with my bandwidth, and those who think that more bandwidth can only be good for the illegal..... have absolutely no clue about the real world, and the future we are moving towards. | |
|  |  |   jsz0
join:2008-01-23 Jewett City, CT
·Comcast
| I'm definitely not against more bandwidth but NetFlix isn't a good example.
NetFlix downloads are heavily compressed. 600-700MB for a movie. That means even at 6mbit/sec you can download the movie faster than you can watch it in real-time.
Even AppleTV/Live quality HD (4GB) can be watched almost real time at 6mbit although realistically you will need some buffering to prevent hiccups.
But yes, i do agree that power users need more than 6mbit/sec. 10 or 15mbit/sec is probably a good middle-ground for non-FTTH services. Not quite as fast as we'd like but realistic given the last mile bandwidth bottle necks of a FTTN system. | |
|  |  |  |   funchords Hello Premium,MVM join:2001-03-11 Washington, DC
·Verizon Online DSL
·Skype
| Re: Who are all these geeks crying for mo speed? said by jsz0 :NetFlix downloads are heavily compressed. 600-700MB for a movie. That means even at 6mbit/sec you can download the movie faster than you can watch it in real-time. NetFlix high-quality runs about 1 GB an hour. 600-700 seems too low an estimate. -- Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon More features, more fun, Join BroadbandReports.com, it's free...
| |
|  |   XBL2009 ------
join:2001-01-03 Chicago, IL
·AT&T Midwest
| said by ninjatutle :Seriously, what would you want 100MB up and down for? What will you be able to do that you can't do now? P2P seems like the only thing that comes to mind...  My little mobile 3G card can even handle my needs. Minus the caps... 1. Faster Upload
2. Stream better video across the internet instead of postage stamp size.
3. Video Phone
4. Download large Game demos
There is four of the top of my head. | |
|  |  |  See 8 replies to this post | |
 |   SLD
join:2002-04-17 Los Angeles, CA 1 edit | P2P seems to be the only thing that comes to your mind. You sound like a RIAA broken record...day after day. Is there an ignore feature on DSLR? | |
|  |   lifela
@rcn.com
| said by ninjatutle :Seriously, what would you want 100MB up and down for? What will you be able to do that you can't do now? P2P seems like the only thing that comes to mind...  My little mobile 3G card can even handle my needs. Minus the caps... i can watch 5 hd channels on 5 different sets with cable AND run P2P. with att i cant watch more than 2 hd channels. what a joke their system is. how long have u worked for att? | |
|  |  |   ninjatutle Premium
join:2006-01-02 San Ramon, CA | Re: Who are all these geeks crying for mo speed? Put up or shut up. Post yer 5 HD tvee's | |
|   Drex Beer..It's What's For Dinner Premium join:2000-02-24 La Place, LA | Instead... How about when will I see U-Verse? | |
|  |  Oedipus
join:2005-05-09 | Re: Instead... Seriously. | |
|  |   Laughing Man Stand Alone Complex
join:2008-03-17 Louisville, KY | Same here | |
|   maartena Nice'n Round. Premium join:2002-05-10 Orange, CA
·RoadRunner Cable
| When? When they drop fiber on your doorstep. You can only get so much done with bundling, and at some point they have to realize that POTS cables and DSL technology is getting outdated.
Cable got some life in it yet running copper, because it is designed totally different, and they will probably get away with running DOCSIS 3.0 for another 5, 10 years.
Phone companies however..... need to ditch the copper line and move to fiber. -- Obama 2008 - Because McCain is more of the same! | |
|   Mr Anon
@il.us | For not all U-Verse'ers equal. I'd also talk about the 19Mb profile. | |
|  |  w4ncr
join:2000-10-27 | Re: For not all U-Verse'ers equal. I dont care about u-verse, I just want more upstream on my DSL SERVICE instead of the 430 I get now. | |
|  |  |   maartena Nice'n Round. Premium join:2002-05-10 Orange, CA | Re: For not all U-Verse'ers equal. Even with bonded pairs you won't see much better uploads then about 1.5 Mbps over copper.... | |
|  |  |  |  MyDogHsFleas Premium join:2007-08-15 Austin, TX
·AT&T U-Verse
·AT&T Southwest
| Re: For not all U-Verse'ers equal. said by maartena :Even with bonded pairs you won't see much better uploads then about 1.5 Mbps over copper.... you don't know what you are talking about, U-verse offers 1.5Mbps upstream TODAY with VDSL (not VDSL2) and NO pair bonding. I have it and it works. 10/1.5 for $55/month.
They could easily go to 2.5Mbs upload if they wanted to provision it for close-to-the-VRAD customers (like me).
VDSL2 will get them a significant bump upwards, even without pair bonding. | |
|  |  |  |   arealdsltech Premium join:2007-02-27 Oklahoma City, OK
·AT&T U-Verse
| I have seen upstream max rates on current U-verse lines over 5.0mbs with no pair bonding (usually under 1500ft). These statistics are not available from the 2-wire RG but are visible with other tools available to technicians. Faster uploads could be provisioned today and go much higher with VDSL2. -- All opinions are my own.!.?. | |
|   rob 23
@windstream.net
| Be nice Is it the fiber or the copper thats the problem ? If you look at the u-verse sync rates ( at u-talk )20% sync at over 60mbps 54% sync at over 50mbps and only 8% sync between 30 to 40mbps. The vrad has 24ports served by one fiber,if it's a OC48 (bpon type equipment without the pon-think verizon mdu vdsl2 or ftth with pon)Thats 622mbps / 24ports = 25mbps to each port ????? using the same al/lu equipment for ftth & fttn will have an easy upgrade path to gpon or not. | |
|  |   arealdsltech Premium join:2007-02-27 Oklahoma City, OK | Re: Be nice Think bigger, Gigabit ethernet. -- All opinions are my own.!.?. | |
|  |  |   Rob 23
@windstream.net | Re: Be nice Gigabit ethernet 1.25gig / 48ports = 26mbps using just two wavelengths 1310 & 1490nm. Or Not | |
|  |   DavePR
join:2008-06-04
·DSL EXTREME
| said by rob 23 :
Is it the fiber or the copper thats the problem ? If you look at the u-verse sync rates ( at u-talk )20% sync at over 60mbps 54% sync at over 50mbps and only 8% sync between 30 to 40mbps. The vrad has 24ports served by one fiber,if it's a OC48 (bpon type equipment without the pon-think verizon mdu vdsl2 or ftth with pon)Thats 622mbps / 24ports = 25mbps to each port ????? using the same al/lu equipment for ftth & fttn will have an easy upgrade path to gpon or not. That's exactly what I was thinking... | |
|  MyDogHsFleas Premium join:2007-08-15 Austin, TX
·AT&T U-Verse
·AT&T Southwest
| Bonding is for distance not speed I don't think you'll see AT&T offering pair bonding as a generally available higher-speed product. This is because they can't guarantee that a given customer will be able to get a 2nd pair, and because they'd rather sell U-Verse to a second customer than allocate two pairs to a single customer and get marginally higher revenue from that customer.
I think what AT&T will, in fact, do is to put pair bonding in their installers' toolkits, so that when they go to install a new customer, they can pair-bond if necessary to get the customer connected, rather than telling them "no can do because of distance from the VRAD".
I think that what you will see as a competitive speed response from AT&T is the ability to provision higher-speed profiles for some customers based on distance from the VRAD (just like they do today with ADSL). I think you will also see the rollout of VDSL2 as a speed-increasing mechanism.
I don't understand Karl Bode's tunnel vision on AT&T. He seems to see it as only a speed competition. In Karl's view, since DOCSIS and FTTP are faster than FTTN (U-verse), AT&T must address speed as the first and foremost competitive factor. Therefore everything AT&T is looking at (like pair bonding) Karl thinks must be for speed purposes. Karl thinks that AT&T did not focus on putting out the fastest technology first, therefore they have a fatally flawed offering. I think that tunnel vision is distorting Karl's reporting.
In my view, AT&T's main problem with U-verse is making it available to more customers faster. Where it's available, it's selling like hotcakes and is well-accepted. That program is going very well for AT&T, thank you very much, as opposed to the gloom and doom we see on this board.
I think AT&T will address speed issues as they come up, but I don't think it's their top priority right now. | |
|  |   Karl Bode News Guy join:2000-03-02
Host: Road Runner PC gaming GAMES PC gaming Tech
4 edits | Re: Bonding is for distance not speed I don't understand Karl Bode's tunnel vision on AT&T. He seems to see it as only a speed competition. In Karl's view, since DOCSIS and FTTP are faster than FTTN (U-verse), AT&T must address speed as the first and foremost competitive factor. Therefore everything AT&T is looking at (like pair bonding) Karl thinks must be for speed purposes. Karl thinks that AT&T did not focus on putting out the fastest technology first, therefore they have a fatally flawed offering. I think that tunnel vision is distorting Karl's reporting. A fair criticism I think, though I'm certainly not alone in the FTTN vs. FTTH criticism, and I think it's more than fair to question the 10Mbps capped transmission capability of a supposed next-generation product in the face of looming DOCSIS 3.0 upgrades. I'm more than happy to expand on how bonded VDSL2 can be a way to make U-Verse more inclusive...but I need more data....
In talking to AT&T, they did mention that their view is that pair bonding is a way to expand their U-Verse offerings to a greater number of customers, but they've been very light on the actual stats...assuming you work for or with them, do you have any data on specifically how bonded VDSL2 reacts to distance? I continue to fire questions at AT&T about this but actual real-world data on bonded distance seems limited because so much of this is still in the lab....best I'm hearing is 40Mbps at 5,000 feet....but that's not proven in the field yet as far as I know... | |
|  |  |  MyDogHsFleas Premium join:2007-08-15 Austin, TX
·AT&T U-Verse
·AT&T Southwest
| Re: Bonding is for distance not speed seeing the article today reminds me I never responded to you here.
No I do not work with AT&T. I'm a customer only and what I know I get from the Inter-webs, and from personal experience.
Here's what I have seen:
1) A presentation by Richard N. Clarke of AT&T titled "attvdsl2.pdf" -- I downloaded it from somewhere -- the reference is on the uverseusers.com site but that site appears to be down right now. I'm attaching a copy here. I think you'll find it quite informative. Be sure to look at the presentations linked off of the last slide.
2) General statements from AT&T that I have seen (again on uverseusers.com that is down right now!) that indicate that pair bonding is more a way to increase distance than to increase speed. | |
|  Rob2647
join:2008-08-12 Rochester, MI | 20/5 Please That would be more than enough to keep me happy for the next 5 years or so.  | |
|   Stoopid
@dslextreme.com
| UVerse Faster Deployment...yea right
Where I used to live in Murrieta, CA, Verizon plowed through the neighborhoods as fast as they could deploying FiOS to every home, then turned on the TV infrastructure as soon as they had the license.
Now that I live in the San Diego area, AT&T is trickling out the uverse at a painfully slow rate to a point where I probably will never see it at my place within the next year or so. They hit the rich neighborhoods first and left the rest in the dust.
yes - Verizon was out first, but they seem to have the same driving force and are deploying faster - check out engadgethd, where they have updates on new neighborhoods to get FiOS almost every week. Don't see that with UVerse. | |
|  |   Deckoh i have..so there for i have Premium join:2002-07-24 Chula Vista, CA | Re: UVerse Faster Deployment...yea right I'm surprised that more people in san diego do not have it. it was just upgraded last week. is there a map of uverse local infrastructure somewhere? | |
|   heat84
join:2004-03-11 Fort Lauderdale, FL
·Comcast
·AT&T Southeast
1 edit | MORONS!! Pair bonding is equivalent to the turbo button on a 486 PC. Obsolete before its even deployed. AT&T are complete morons.
I only have 1.5/256. I'm pretty happy with 1.5 but sub 1 Mbps is ridiculous. even U-Verse's 1.5 Mbps is laffable compared to what most ISP's offer. What AT&T is doing would be equivalent to the TV industry 40 years ago trying to make black and white look better instead of going to color. Fiber is the future they need to get with it! | |
|  |  Enlightener
join:2006-01-28 Cedar Park, TX
·AT&T U-Verse
| Re: MORONS!! It reminds me more of the shotgun modems. That and ISDN never really caught on for general use. Everyone jumped to the next level: DSL and Cablemodem broadband.
I'm a U-Verse FTTP customer and I can't get more then 10/1.5 so asking AT&T to go to fiber doesn't really help sadly. | |
|  |  |   heat84
join:2004-03-11 Fort Lauderdale, FL | Re: MORONS!! Yes it will help because fiber will provide more bandwith and allow for faster speeds. | |
|  |  |  |  Enlightener
join:2006-01-28 Cedar Park, TX | Re: MORONS!! It doesn't help because AT&T refuses to use it. They don't want to differentiate their product/marketing offerings for copper and fiber customers. | |
|  |  |  |  |   heat84
join:2004-03-11 Fort Lauderdale, FL | Re: MORONS!! I thought people who live in brand new housing developments which have U-Verse FTTH, had faster speeds available to them. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  Enlightener
join:2006-01-28 Cedar Park, TX | Re: MORONS!! Nope. Best available to me is U-Verse Maxx 10/1.5 for $55/mo plus tax. | |
|  |  |  See 6 replies to this post | |
 Joe12345678
join:2003-07-22 Des Plaines, IL | Will faster DSL speeds come with the direct tv deal as VOD Will faster DSL speeds come with the direct tv deal? as DTV VOD files are big and use the internet for downloading them. | |
|   sunnyhenry
@myvzw.com | faster AT&T has 700 MHz spectrum for lte in 2012. U-Verse is selling now. I like to think that some where some how it would make economic sense to keep using copper | |
|  nishiko7 Premium join:2007-05-01 Pleasant Hill, CA
| As much as I would love to have FTTP...
... I still think AT&T was smart to go FTTN for the present. As the previous poster states, they should leverage their current infrastructure as much as possible to save cost and allow for fiber installations to come down further in price, so that when they do install, they can do it for a fraction of what Verizon's average cost will end up being.
I think Verizon is spending about 4x as much per install. That's just crazy to me. If at&t waits, they will also have much higher demand for the higher speeds.
For now, I think they can milk enough out of copper to get by just fine for about 10 more years (with small improvements like VDSL2 and pair bonding as necessary/appropriate/cost-effective).
Keep in mind, at&t doesn't need to be the fastest in most cases... in most cases they can provide fast enough for about 95% of their customers, especially in light of their overall value proposition.
It's not just about speed, it's also about pricing... overall VALUE (and "fast enough" for the majority of their customers).
For example, where I am (Pleasant Hill, CA) and at my distance from the DSLAM, I can get a STABLE 3 Mbps/512 at&t DSL plan for $30/month (can get next higher speed, but it is not as stable for vpn and such). To get Comcast's 6/1 Mbps plan it is normally $42/mo. I'm currently on a 6 mo trial for only $20/month, however if they can't offer me some discount to the normal $42/mo price at the end of the promo, I intend to go back to the DSL.
Why? Because for the price difference, the DSL offering is "good enough" for me considering the significantly cheaper monthly price and the fact that I'm only a moderately heavy user. I'm a tech power user, but not doing bit torrent and such much.
So, all things considered, I think at&t is making a very rational, prudent decision. When economies of scale and advances in technology bring the cost of FTTP down further, then act, but for now, plain smart on their part.
Same goes for cable companies and DOCSIS 3. No big rush. I'd love if we all had 100 symmetric FTTP... sure, awesome, but from a business sense, if it was your company and your money, you would no doubt want to improve your customer's experience, but in a sensible, cost-effective manner.
Just one opinion. Please don't flame me. I respect all of your opinions and can appreciate the desire for FTTN. I think it helps to consider as if you owned at&t or comcast. Certainly there are LOTS we'd change about they way they treat their customers, but rushing to abandon copper in favor of FTTP might not be on your priority list. Or maybe it would? I'm not an expert, just my humble observation.
Best regards, all!
And thank you BBR for this forum! One of my favorite haunts on the net. I eat this stuff up. | |
|   Chokedbydialup
@turbodial.net
| Slow speeds?
This conversation drives me nuts for multiple reasons. For one, I'm still stuck on dial-up, 13(?) years after Cable and DSL first came out? And the dial-up we have is pulling in 20 Kbps MAX with an accelerator running on medium. Secondly, when on vacation we stayed at a hotel with free wi-fi. The speeds, tested on speedtest.net, ranked between 800 Kbps and 3.1 Mbps. So even in a hotel in a major city with business-people and other important guests, we only got a max. of about 3.0 Mbps. In all honesty, I'd love if we could even get 500 Kbps at home, because with five people needing to update programs, security suites, and basic everyday email and web-browsing, dial-up is not cutting it.
PS: Happy browsing with your slow, out-dated, 3-6 Mbps internet connection. We'll be happy when we get satellite with 1.2 Mbps and a daily bandwidth cap.
PPS: McCain\Palin 08! | |
|   hahahahaah
@bellsouth.net | Just ask I don't know, but you could ask both of them. | |
|   toslow
@rr.com | hahaha 6-10 is a joke for a competitive product. at-t will be sorry they rolled out this obsolete technology. | |
|   Alltel
@windstream.net
| Uverse is probably going to fail The reason why I say it is going to fail is that they are trying to deploy it where is cable is available lets face it they can't compete with cable alright lets say you can get the best uverse which is 10/1.5 alright most of the slowest speeds offered by cable is 8/512 and thats if you get the basic and there tv works. So they are going to fail if they dont put it either where people have no options or limited options because competing with cable not going to happen | |
|  mrvid
join:2007-06-19 Levittown, NY
4 edits | and if one line goes down you lose 1/2 the service? My feelings on this...
Bringing in a 2nd pair will not solve AT&T's problems.. If AT&T gives you 2 pairs, yeah "at absolute best" they can double the speed but when cable offers high speed internet, you don't have to worry about half their wire going out of service.
Are all AT&T's lines brand new cause i'm thinking their pretty old which also means their prone to the elements. Better hope its not raining while the football game's on. What about crosstalk, hum or any of that, the wire hitting a powerline or something; im sure that has an effect too, may just take out the service altogether.
AT&T- FTTH today or in the history books tomarrow. I feel all cable has to do is offer 20/5Mbps with a 2 year contract" and the customers will just flock. They don't even need to pull docsys 3.0 from their arsenal, yet.
said by nishiko7 :... I still think AT&T was smart to go FTTN for the present. As the previous poster states, they should leverage their current infrastructure ...... Best regards, all! And thank you BBR for this forum! One of my favorite haunts on the net. I eat this stuff up. Quoted from above but I cut down the quote down to keep it brief, just scroll back to read all...
Again, my feeling: if AT&T builds a network that is inherently cheaper and has all sorts of issues, they would have to bring down their price to hold on to customers. If they do their already losing money, so much for Verizon paying way more but worse; if people get disguisted, they will likely flock to cable which can offer them a 2yr contract and a reliable package to pull them in forcing AT&T to lower their prices more in hopes of bringing in customers. If they have to constantly lower their prices, if their stock goes down, they may not have the money, even if its cheaper, to build a FTTH network. It also takes a long time and requires getting franchises in each area, the timeframe can destroy the company if they lose most of their customers in the process. I am saying this cause I feel AT&T could be building a rockin' network and I want to say it now before it's too late. | |
|  |  watts3000
join:2002-01-21 Birmingham, AL
| Re: and if one line goes down you lose 1/2 the service? I will say this most people hating on 100x100 do not realize what they are missing. We have a 100x100 service that we use at work that comes through ATT the connection backs 5000 users . The speed is jaw dropping I downloaded a 600 meg linux distro in 30 seconds. I than wanted to test upload speed I connected back to my home lan and copied a 600 meg file over in 2 minutes flat. I than logged into oracles site and downloaded 6 gigs of data in less than 10 minutes. | |
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