 PhoenixDown-- Wants FIOSPremium join:2003-06-08 Fresh Meadows, NY kudos:1 | Apples to Oranges... I'd rather see tax payer money being used to make radical improvements our national infrastructure (mass transit, utilities, and broadband among them) than wasted on mismanaged companies. -- »Left Align the Forum Column | |
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 |  | | Re: Apples to Oranges... I'd sort of like that too, but if those mismanaged companies go under, there is a possibility that the fall out could be extremely devasting since it is the financial/banking sector. from what i can tell, the 700 billion bailout is more or less like putting bandaid on a stab wound (or poorly stitching it up) rather than getting/finding the root cause(s), fixing those problems and then giving money if needed to ensure they don't collapse. | |
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 |  |  PhoenixDown-- Wants FIOSPremium join:2003-06-08 Fresh Meadows, NY kudos:1 | Re: Apples to Oranges... The idea of too big to fail needs to go... if a company is too big to fail, then we need to introduce competition to balance out the market. but yeah I agree, it will suck if these companies fail. The only question is whether it will hurt more now or later. | |
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 |  |  |  Jafo232You Can't Spell Democrat Without Rat.Premium join:2002-10-17 Boonville, NY 1 edit | Re: Apples to Oranges... How about the idea of not taking all this money in the first place? Where did that idea go? If they would just leave this money in the economy instead of trying to use it to fix it, I think we would all be amazed at where we would be.
We are all bitching about how the Government should spend the money, when in reality, the Government should not have so much of it in the first place. -- Custom PHP/Perl Development. Vbulletin And Wordpress Mods Too! | |
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| Re: Apples to Oranges... said by Jafo232:How about the idea of not taking all this money in the first place? If we learned anything from this experience, it's that "free markets" (in the literal sense) don't work. Sure, it works fine when I negotiate with my landscaper to have my lawn mowed. But, just because that works doesn't mean every application of "free markets" does.
If it did, we wouldn't have the SEC, banking regulations, food- and drug-quality laws or building codes and zoning laws.
Libertarianism may be a fine religion. But, it has no practical place in reality.
Mark | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  Jafo232You Can't Spell Democrat Without Rat.Premium join:2002-10-17 Boonville, NY | Re: Apples to Oranges... said by amigo_boy:If we learned anything from this experience, it's that "free markets" (in the literal sense) don't work. Sure, it works fine when I negotiate with my landscaper to have my lawn mowed. But, just because that works doesn't mean every application of "free markets" does. If it did, we wouldn't have the SEC, banking regulations, food- and drug-quality laws or building codes and zoning laws. Libertarianism may be a fine religion. But, it has no practical place in reality. Mark Really? So the legislation passed "regulating" institutions like Fannie Mae to loan money to deadbeats worked out so great huh? Exactly what regulation would have kept us out of that mess? Deregulation perhaps..
In fact, the biggest problem here is not the lack of regulation, it is the fact that we are telling corporations that if they fail, we will bail them out. If we just let them go bankrupt, it might foster a thriftier corporate environment out there.
This idea that the free market has failed is laughable at best. -- Custom PHP/Perl Development. Vbulletin And Wordpress Mods Too! | |
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1 edit | Re: Apples to Oranges... said by Jafo232:If we just let them go bankrupt, it might foster a thriftier corporate environment out there. Sure. And if we didn't have the SEC, everyone would have to face the "true" consequences of their choices (caveat emptor, and their own responsibility for due diligence).
The same could be said of food- and drug-quality laws. And, environmental protection. And state-creation of corporate entities. And building codes and zoning laws.
These all produce outcomes that a free market wouldn't. Causing (good and bad) behaviors that wouldn't otherwise occur.
It's just a reality that we have these socialized markets. Nobody is calling for their dissolution. So, referring to "if" (as if it's realistically possible) is just a Libertarian sleight of hand.
Mark | |
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4 edits | said by Jafo232:So the legislation passed "regulating" institutions like Fannie Mae to loan money to deadbeats worked out so great huh? Exactly what regulation would have kept us out of that mess? Deregulation perhaps.. That's an extremely simplistic representation of how we got into this mess. You're leaving out the role of
- Wall St. banks who bundled collateralize debt obligations for investors who couldn't buy enough of them (with no care about risk).
- Ratings agencies (Fitch, Moodys, Standard & Poors) who fudged the ratings due to the competitive nature of their business. (Go slightly more optimistic on the ratings in order to get other business from that customer seeking a rating).
- Credit Default Swaps. This was the big one. An unregulated insurance system which took on the nature of a betting parlor. Anyone could write CDS policies. With no regulation to ensure they had sufficient capital to pay claims. (Unlike traditional state-regulated insurance companies.).[1]
This industry facilitated the market for liar loans. It allowed purchasers of mortgage securities to sell risk to someone completely incapable of absorbing the risk. The resulting "policy" helped the ratings agency give a positive rating to the bundled obligations. The rating helped investment banks bundle the bad loans with good ones, and sell the resulting CDO. The CDO helped investors pour more money into the market for those securities.
That was a perfect mix of non-regulation. The fact that Congress may have gone too far in its long-standing legislation to prevent "redlining" (the practice of denying loans based upon geographic location turned into granting loans because of it), the vast majority of those loans wouldn't have been made if investors weren't willing to buy those loans on the open market. Nobody held a gun to *their* heads.
Even Greenspan (who used to espouse libertarianism) admitted to Congress he'd seriously overestimated the role of self-interest in markets/business to keep a mess like this from occurring.[2]
[1] 60 Minutes did an informative piece on CDSes a couple weeks ago. »www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4546583n
[2] »gothamist.com/2008/10/23/greensp···bout.php
Mark | |
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 CjaicemanPremium,MVM join:2004-10-12 Parker, CO kudos:2 Reviews:
·Comcast Workplace
| Fiber to every home? said by "Karl Bode" :
Though an unfair apple to orange comparison, the $700 billion bailout could have delivered fiber to the home to every single American, with enough money left over to outfit half of all homes for solar electricity. O.o ...... I can has fiber?... -- Duct tape is like The Force it has a light side and a dark side, and it binds the Universe together | |
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 baineschile2600 ways to livePremium join:2008-05-10 Sterling Heights, MI Reviews:
·Comcast
·magicjack.com
| Broadband as a utility? Maybe, but not yet. There are plenty of people in the US that live without high speed internet, or no internet at all.
It eventually will be important, but getting fiber to rural areas and the maitinence to upkeep it would be too costly for now. | |
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 Pv8man join:2008-07-24 Hammond, IN | No? You don't need help from the government for broadband...that's socialism apparently
also is the (Useless) bailout | |
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 |  fireflierCoffee. . .Need CoffeePremium join:2001-05-25 Limbo | Re: No? said by Pv8man:You don't need help from the government for broadband...that's socialism apparently So is distributing taxpayer money to bail out poorly managed corporate institutions. They just don't call it that. -- Tradition: Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid. --despair.com | |
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 Rob_Premium join:2008-07-16 Mary Esther, FL Reviews:
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| why? nothing will happen. speeds will go up SLOWLY. unless your in a FIOS neighbourhood, the same shit applies.
which is indeed sad.
thanks, corporate greed. you really know how to treat a customer..like a number.
i would love to see ISP's offer 50/50 internet down here. but that won't happen.
-Rob -- »www.cband.info A great way to pass the time! Interactive (IRC) radio you won't find elsewhere! Put Winamp or Itunes to good use and join our growing family | |
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 |  | | Re: why? said by Rob_:i would love to see ISP's offer 50/50 internet down here. but that won't happen. I'm sure they already do offer 50/50 down there. 50% of your town has access to Internet (probably dial-up) and 50% does not. (you never claimed what 50/50 you were looking for ) --
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 Mr FelFlynn LivesPremium join:2008-03-17 Louisville, KY | FTTCT I couldn't help but laugh when I read "Fiber to the cerebral cortex," everyone could use one of those.  | |
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 |  dadkinsCan you do Blu?Premium,MVM join:2003-09-26 Hercules, CA kudos:18 | Re: FTTCT said by Mr Fel:I couldn't help but laugh when I read "Fiber to the cerebral cortex," everyone could use one of those. Wireless to the cortex! -- Think outside the Fox... Opera | |
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 |  |  funchordsHelloPremium,MVM join:2001-03-11 Yarmouth Port, MA kudos:5 | Re: FTTCT said by dadkins:said by Mr Fel:I couldn't help but laugh when I read "Fiber to the cerebral cortex," everyone could use one of those. Wireless to the cortex! Heh! (we already are... most of us anyway) -- Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon More features, more fun, Join BroadbandReports.com, it's free...
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 |  |  |  | | Re: FTTCT actually the neuron is basically a wire with insulation too (assuming no pathology)! | |
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 |  |  MrMoodyFree range slavePremium join:2002-09-03 Smithfield, NC | We already have that, it's called television. Unfortunately it only appears to be moderately interactive, while is not actually interactive at all, and is only used to control you. | |
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 |  baineschile2600 ways to livePremium join:2008-05-10 Sterling Heights, MI | Re: Make H. S. Broadband available where AC power is available. Socialist. | |
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 |  |  funchordsHelloPremium,MVM join:2001-03-11 Yarmouth Port, MA kudos:5 | Re: Make H. S. Broadband available where AC power is available. Do you say that because you think all roads should be privately owned? | |
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1 edit | Re: Make H. S. Broadband available where AC power is available. said by funchords:Do you say that because you think all roads should be privately owned? no, probably because he's a republican. their philosophy is govt spending should only go to corporations and rich people, and from there it trickles down to the rest of us.
anyone that thinks commoners deserve help from the govt is a socialist.
it should be noted that despite this, govt handouts are not socialism when they go to big business. however, I am confused as to why the republicans don't want any money thrown at the auto companies - maybe it's because they employ too many commoners.
on the other hand, maybe it's just snark. | |
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 |  |  |  |  baineschile2600 ways to livePremium join:2008-05-10 Sterling Heights, MI | Re: Make H. S. Broadband available where AC power is available. Actually, I am as liberal as they come. But when government controls an aspect of life for need as opposed to it being commercially run for profit, that is essentially the definition of socialism. | |
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| Re: Make H. S. Broadband available where AC power is available. said by baineschile:that is essentially the definition of socialism. Stay tuned as Mr. Baine explains to us how we shouldn't have SEC regulation of stock markets; banking regulations; food- and drug-quality laws (producing a level of quality a free market wouldn't); creation of corporate charters (a fictional, yet legal "person") by state legislatures; and zoning laws and building codes (which restrict how any individual may choose to dispose of their property).
We are properly called a society of socialized capitalism. Not absolute capitalism or socialism.
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 |  |  |  |  |  TailsPremium join:2007-09-25 Sanford, NC kudos:2 | How is it socialist to have SOME regulation on the safety and quality of our products? | |
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| Re: Make H. S. Broadband available where AC power is available. said by Tails:How is it socialist to have SOME regulation on the safety and quality of our products? It's not what a "free market" would produce simply by buyers exercising their due diligence, exercising the calculus of their wants/needs?
The premise of food- and drug-quality laws is that it's "for everyone's benefit" or "in the interest of public welfare."
But, those are just socialistic terms (used to justify building codes, zoning laws, the SEC, banking regulations, state creation of corporate charters). In the end they deny willing buyers and sellers from engaging in certain activities which may be beneficial to them -- simply because the needs of the many outweigh their needs.
Socialism is a reality. We enjoy its benefits every day -- if you define socialism by the standards Conservatives usually employ. The same argument could be made that we have capitalism instead of pure socialism. In reality, we have mixture of both: socialized capitalism.
Mark | |
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 |  |  |  | | said by funchords:Do you say that because you think all roads should be privately owned? No, no, no, they should be the property of People of the United States of Barack Obama. Obama can fly so he certainly can lay roads and fiber. Obama could probably finish that pipeline in Alaska in 24 hrs.
Compared to Bush who can barely read, Obama can do it all. He has the Godly talent of figuring it all out. Health care for everyone? No problem. Jobs for everyone? No problem. Banking just becomes nationalized? Why not? Free FIOS? Sure.
America has lived far too long on Capitalistic ideas and Reagan's charisma. We need a change to something different. Not socialism. That's a dirty work. We just need to create a new word for it, then people will buy it. Wait. No buying required. Just need to change a few minds. Maybe become an Aristocracy with a benevolent King Obama.
If it doesn't work, we can change back. -- Saving the world keeps me busy. However, I find Earth very primitive from my home planet of Krypton. -Supergirl | |
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 |  |  AVonGaussPremium,MVM join:2007-11-01 Boynton Beach, FL | It could also be a turn towards ultimate capitalism. The "last mile" is the most expensive proposition for anyone in starting to provide broadband or any other communications service to consumers. If local, state and/or federal governments were to take on the "last mile" challenge it could in turn allow many more competitors in to the arenas in far less time. Fiber would be run from the consumers to centralized points where providers could then in turn cross-connect from their networks to the fibers running to the consumers. The initial costs would take decades to recover from line leasing fees, but governments usually (should) plan for the long term. I am not suggesting or desiring the government to get in to the video, broadband or telephone service business, but managing a shared resource does have a few advantages. Whether it be through private efforts, public or even a combination, that is the way the world is heading. | |
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 |  |  1 edit | You are somewhat challenged in your understanding, including what socialism is. | |
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 |  jmn1207Premium join:2000-07-19 Reston, VA | If your roads are built with taxes on vehicles and property tax, if you have a road leading to your home, than it makes sense. If you do not benefit from a road, you should not be liable to pay for it.
The internet is not quite as simple. Certainly if you already have it, and wish for improvements, taxing the service is a given. However, for those that do not have broadband available, what do we tax for those people to cover the costs of bringing it to their homes? We can't expect everyone to pay, unless they want it.
The government does not magically pay for and support the people. It's OUR MONEY, the people's. Except for the money the government magically creates, which causes the value of my money, a commodity with nothing to back it up, to decrease. The government can't do a damn thing without our money. Without capitalism, or forcibly taking resources, there is only going to be a fraction of that money available for our government to waste. | |
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 | | newelectronichighway
I think the time is right to have a national policy on broadband. There is not enough competition, if because the last mile and most of the infrastructure is still held by the telcos and cablecos. Without an open access pipeline, it makes a hard barrier to entry for other ISP's.
This will surely open up new markets not yet dreamed up,and spur innovation, products, and the economy. | |
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 bentand IngaPremium join:2004-10-04 Loveland, CO Reviews:
·Comcast
| Free Market "Free Market" is a BS term used by corporate lobbyists to resist regulation and give fiscal conservatives a warm fuzzy.
Where are the "Free Market" crys now that our cash is being thrown around? In a Free Market, GM and AIG would die like the bloated worthless pieces of garbage that they are, their shareholders and employees would be in Detroit and New York gunning (literally) for the board and execs, and their employees would get their socialism the old-fashioned way, on the dole. -- »www.lp.org/issues/family-budget
"That government is best which governs least" - Thoreau | |
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 |  | | Re: Free Market Free Marketism, Communism, Socialism etc. are all ideologies.
While great fodder for classrooms, barrooms and chat rooms; they describe utopias that never have and never will exist in the real world. | |
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 cacoPremium join:2005-03-10 Whittier, AK | All nice and dandy but.... 1st they need to map out areas that can get broadband and those that can't. Once we finally have an accurate idea of how wired this country really is,then congress critters can start throwing money at the broadband company that was their biggest $$$$contributor$$$$$$$$ promises to wire rural USA.
I am so fired.  -- »www.seabee.navy.mil | |
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 | | Let Govr'ts Wire the world. I have been wanting this for some time. I think governments should run the wires and rent them out. This way anyone can start a business and this way everyone person has a chance at internet.
This also means the Big Ol telcos and Cable companies would have to compete with the small guy ISP. Who wins? The customers, who ever runs the better service and the government making money on rentals. The people who will get the jobs for installing and maintaining the infastructure.
The losers? Big Ol telcos and cable companies. No more monopolies for them.
To me this more looks like a free market. Capitalisum at its best. | |
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 |  | | Re: Let Govr'ts Wire the world. i wouldn't want the government to run the fiber for several reasons: they'll probably take longer than planned, cost more than planned, and the recent privacy issues. how often do government projects stay on time and on budget?
i think a gigantic bag of money should be waved in front of the telecommunication companies while saying "you want some of the money? start running fiber now. this money won't here forever. you'll get more money for wiring faster. this is not a loan" in theory, this will provide a big motivation for the companies to wire and wire fast without to much worry of if the someone (government personel, corporation taking the money and leisurely running fiber) pockets the money while minimal fiber gets deployed. the companies should already understand what they are up against in wiring their territories. the companies may already have most of the man power needed to pull it off. the government would need consultants to figure out what needs to be done first (lots of money 'wasted') and probably would need to hire lots of short term workers or 'out source' the workers to the local communication companies. | |
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 | | Yes.... I can steal the fiber in front of the road and sell it. Or better yet download a bajillion movies and sell them on another country. | |
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 | | Why have .gov provide the infrastructure? Oh look the government provides us with roads.... They also tell you what you can and can't do on those roads. You will all be bitching when they won't allow certain things on their pipe. If they don't like something being passed along on their network they will stop it, EVEN IF A THIRD PARTY PROVIDES YOU WITH SERVICE. | |
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 |  1 edit | Re: Why have .gov provide the infrastructure? Ummm, is this not what companies are doing already?
Under government, it will be controlled by the people as long as coruption of government does not happen. Also it seems more governments are moving toward accountability. Politicans are being nailed. Seems that government will be siding with their people more and more. The way it should be. | |
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 |  |  | | Re: Why have .gov provide the infrastructure? Ummmm, more governments are moving toward censorship. I believe it is Australia that has just started censoring some traffic in their country (in the last couple weeks). I Don't recall the specifics. China is another glaring example of government censorship.
The fact that the government would have a monopoly on the network, should be enough to scare you away. | |
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 |  |  |  | | Re: Why have .gov provide the infrastructure? If you look who is in power then you will understand how this happened.
This is against everyone in the nation basicly and the government gets its cues from unions and selected interests. The ALP party under this administration has stepped closer to the far left and with beliefs of the far right in mind.
ALP is no longer a Workers Party but a vested interest party. | |
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 |  |  |  KoolMoeAw ManPremium join:2001-02-14 Annapolis, MD | There wouldn't be a difference. If the FedGov wanted the 'internet' censored to some degree now, you think AT&T, VZ, Comcast, etc would fight it? I have strong doubts. KM | |
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 | | Terms I can comprehend... Since the whole Internet cap thing, I can't understand big numbers without some pithy, semi-accurate but ultimately misleading, simple-minded comparison.
So, please put $700B in terms I can understand. How many eight balls and hookers is that? Is $700B a couple of grams and a handjob for everyone or a kilo and a brothel for everyone? | |
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 |  Sammer join:2005-12-22 Canonsburg, PA | Re: Terms I can comprehend... said by Anon Cow :
So, please put $700B in terms I can understand. How many eight balls and hookers is that? Is $700B a couple of grams and a handjob for everyone or a kilo and a brothel for everyone? Enough for the the former with plenty left over to provide the latter free of charge to millionaire CEOs. | |
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 KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little GuyPremium join:2000-01-17 Tulsa, OK Reviews:
·AT&T DSL Service
| If we're note careful.... ... this will end up as just another slush fund for the Communications giants to use to help offset their operating expenses so they can make more profit.
IE, a subsidy. -- "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
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 | | wut hmm? didn't the government already throw billions to the major isp's like 10 years ago, and didn't every single one of them flush it down the toilet? | |
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 | | Could Broadband Investment Help The Economy? Teleworking continues to expand in the U.S., and most teleworkers need broadband. In that sense broadband is a part of the transportation infrastructure, and investing in it is an alternative to the same as building new roads and repairing old ones, or helping transit agencies buy buses and rail cars.
The teleworker's car stays in the driveway, and helps reduce the need for other transportation investments. So does Internet commerce, because consumers can shop on the net instead of driving to the mall, and their postal carrier or FedEx or UPS can bring the products to their door. It also reduces pollution and global warming, and is increasingly important to education and healthcare.
For these reasons it is important to recognize that the broadband infrastructure is a part of the transportation infrastructure in many respects. Policymakers need to start allocating part of federal government transportation infrastructure spending to expanding broadband deployment, and they need to increase the share devoted to that purpose in the future. | |
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 | | Broadband investment Broadband investment (as well as other infrastructure) are very real benefits to the economy that will eventually benefit companies and individuals. I think that these kinds of investments are reasonable and prudent.
As for corporate handouts I am not on either extreme end of the spectrum on that. Last night I went to the final debate at our university between the college democrats and republicans and then I began to realize something important.
For the banks and other financial institutions that have our money it makes sense to bail them out despite the fact that they were not managing their credit and mortgage business responsibly. Again, all of our money is in the banks.
However, I am not for helping other companies in industry that are poorly managed. For instance, I do not believe that GM, Ford or Chrysler should be bailed out. They should have had their Sh*& together a long time ago. They either need to fix themselves or die trying. They brought their ills upon themselves. | |
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·magicjack.com
1 edit | Re: Broadband investment said by John Keels :
For the banks and other financial institutions that have our money it makes sense to bail them out despite the fact that they were not managing their credit and mortgage business responsibly. Again, all of our money is in the banks. I liked what someone else said. If a business (financial or otherwise) is "too big to fail" (the justification we keep hearing for bailouts), then they should have been broken up earlier so that we had better competition, and no single company could present such an impact that it requires bailout.
I think that would be a reasonable strategic action instead of waiting for calamity, and then talking tactical actions (bailouts). It would be in the spirit of promoting free(er) markets (rather than promoting the moral hazard that, if you get big enough, you've got society by the b*lls, and they'll bail you out).
The irony is: After the recent bank failures and mergers, we've reduced competition and created even *larger* institutions (Chase takes over WaMu, etc.).
Mark | |
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 |  Sammer join:2005-12-22 Canonsburg, PA | Re: One more thought. said by Mr Matt: If we leave it to the incumbent ISP's to deploy high speed broadband to consumers, consumers will get Gigabit speed in twenty years, with 5 Gigabyte caps. Considering the lack of progress exhibited during the last seven years when it was left almost entirely up to the incumbents, 20 years is too optimistic for Gigabit speed. | |
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 Simba7 join:2003-03-24 Billings, MT | Light up that Dark Fiber! Why not just light up all the dark fiber that's strung from one end of the U.S. to the other? | |
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