 
cypherstream
Looking forward to the future of things.
Premium,MVM
join:2004-12-02
Reading, PA
clubs:
| Just wire up all of PA Verizon should just wire up the entire state of PA while they are at it. I'd subscribe to a very robust triple play package with MR-DVR / Home Media sharing / Fast internet , etc.. the moment the fiber is lit.
I know they have some of Montgomery, Chester and Bucks counties. They also have some in Cumberland, Lebanon, Dauphin and Lancaster counties. What the hell happened to the hole in the map for Berks County? Right smack in between Lebanon, Montgomery and Chester counties.
Bring on the Competition! Comcast sucks for video. Internet and Phone is great, but HD and the whole guide/dvr experience is not Comcast's forte. | |
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PGHammer
join:2003-06-09
Accokeek, MD
clubs:
 ·Comcast
| Re: Just wire up all of PA That would no more happen than Comcast itself wiring all of Pennsylvania. While Comcast (or Verizon) is indeed capable of tackling the entire state, video franchising is decided at the county (or, in cases like Philly, muni) level. As long as franchising is handled piecemeal, networks will continue to be built/rebuilt piecemeal. (By the way, how much of Berks County has video franchising agreementsw in place?) | |
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cypherstream
Looking forward to the future of things.
Premium,MVM
join:2004-12-02
Reading, PA
clubs:
2 edits | Re: Just wire up all of PA I heard that Muhelenburg Township (Northern Reading border) offered them the same franchise agreement Comcast has. The big sticking point is coverage area. the township wants 100% availability within 3 years to keep them from cherry picking the best neighborhoods but Verizon would not commit to a time table.
When I contacted my township (Lower Alsace) they said that their Comcast franchise is up in 2010 (IIRC) and they are in a joint agreement with about 10 other townships, but assured me I am welcome at any meetings to express concern. They seemed to welcome the idea of allowing Verizon to come in and provide some competition, but Verizon needs to show initiative. VZ has 7mbit DSL in the area and I drive by the local switching facility almost every day.
Additionally I don't know if VZ could technically or legally offer Fios in Douglassville, Birdsboro, Morgantown or any of the area's serviced by D&E Communications. I've seen D&E run fiber, but they appear to only offer 10mbps DSL. I'm not sure what all of that D&E fiber is for... who know's maybe they have a similar project on their drawing boards. 10mbps is good for DSL though. Maybe the fiber is just run closer to the neighborhood. | |
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BF69
join:2004-07-28
Camden, TN
| Re: Just wire up all of PA said by cypherstream  :I heard that Muhelenburg Township (Northern Reading border) offered them the same franchise agreement Comcast has. The big sticking point is coverage area. the township wants 100% availability within 3 years to keep them from cherry picking the best neighborhoods but Verizon would not commit to a time table. So in otherwords the town said "all or nothing" and Verizon said "Ok nothing". Real smart town leaders there.
Something > nothing. Last time I checked. | |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: Just wire up all of PA said by BF69 :So in otherwords the town said "all or nothing" and Verizon said "Ok nothing". Real smart town leaders there. Something > nothing. Last time I checked. That's why I have always blamed government for the lack of broadband deployment in this country. Like it or not, there will be some places which are simply unprofitable for some companies to wire up. It isn't fair to everyone else that all other potential customers be deprived of expanded broadband deployments because government places unreasonable demands on ISPs.
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cypherstream
Looking forward to the future of things.
Premium,MVM
join:2004-12-02
Reading, PA
clubs:
| Re: Just wire up all of PA Yeah especially when there's another incumbent provider already servicing the area. However the local government could give perks or special deals if they comply with certain guidelines. Like if they wire up 100% of the area within 3 years, they could be granted a tax and regulation free presence for 3 years. Verizon can choose to comply - or not. It's up to Verizon if they would want to take them up on that offer.
So let Verizon build, but grant them perks if they comply with the local franchise. | |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: Just wire up all of PA said by cypherstream :So let Verizon build, but grant them perks if they comply with the local franchise. I like that approach. As long as things like tax incentives and other perks are given after people can actually sign up for the service than I am all for it.
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Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty | |
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| | | | | jester121
join:2003-08-09
Lake Zurich, IL
 ·surpasshosting
 ·ViaTalk
| That's how we ended up with the debacle that is the USF in telecom. Once someone decided that telephone service is a right, the government got involved in "spreading the wealth around" and there you have it. We now have ubiquitous telephone service, along with corruptions and billions of dollars wasted. | |
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marigolds
Gainfully employed, finally
Premium,MVM
join:2002-05-13
Saint Louis, MO
| Re: Just wire up all of PA said by wifi4milez :These absurd local build out requirements will do nothing but slow down broadband deployment in this country. Quick point on that... buildout requirements only apply to video distribution.
They do not apply to internet access, even if the internet access is carried over the same fiber as the video distribution. Verizon can run FIOS all they want without even a franchise agreement. They cannot run FIOS TV without a franchise agreement and buildout requirements.
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GeekGirl1
The Medium IS the Message
Premium
join:2007-01-28
Morrisville, PA | Re: Just wire up all of PA I wonder if anyone in the Comcast building in Center City will subscribe?  | |
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marigolds
Gainfully employed, finally
Premium,MVM
join:2002-05-13
Saint Louis, MO
| said by cypherstream :I heard that Muhelenburg Township (Northern Reading border) offered them the same franchise agreement Comcast has. The big sticking point is coverage area. the township wants 100% availability within 3 years to keep them from cherry picking the best neighborhoods but Verizon would not commit to a time table. By federal law, they are required to offer them the same franchise agreement as Comcast. If they gave Verizon a different agreement, Comcast can come back and sue them under due process and would easily win.
I would assume the Comcast agreement has a clause that if Comcast's market share or penetration drop below a certain number, they are no longer held to buildout requirements. That same clause would apply to Verizon. If that clause is missing, they can insert it in 2010 (that section would not be voidable in negotiations), and then Verizon would be exempted.
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| | | | SD6
join:2005-03-26
| Re: Just wire up all of PA said by marigolds :said by cypherstream :I heard that Muhelenburg Township (Northern Reading border) offered them the same franchise agreement Comcast has. The big sticking point is coverage area. the township wants 100% availability within 3 years to keep them from cherry picking the best neighborhoods but Verizon would not commit to a time table. By federal law, they are required to offer them the same franchise agreement as Comcast. If they gave Verizon a different agreement, Comcast can come back and sue them under due process and would easily win. I would assume the Comcast agreement has a clause that if Comcast's market share or penetration drop below a certain number, they are no longer held to buildout requirements. That same clause would apply to Verizon. If that clause is missing, they can insert it in 2010 (that section would not be voidable in negotiations), and then Verizon would be exempted. Not at all. They have to be eguivalent; not the same. None of Verizon's franchise agreements are the same as the incumbents and none have been voided. | |
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marigolds
Gainfully employed, finally
Premium,MVM
join:2002-05-13
Saint Louis, MO
| Re: Just wire up all of PA Yes, by "same" I meant equivalent. Obviously they cannot have identical wordings, but they must have the same functional clauses. If the incumbent franchise requires an i-net, then the overbuilder must have a clause for i-net support. If the incumbent franchise calls for up to 12 PEG channels, then the overbuilder franchise must call for minimum number of PEGs provided. If the incumbent must provide interconnects and fiber ties in for a specific fee, then the overbuilder must provide equivalent interconnects and fiber ties ins for a fee with the same cost-share.
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| | | | | | SD6
join:2005-03-26
| Re: Just wire up all of PA said by marigolds :Yes, by "same" I meant equivalent. Obviously they cannot have identical wordings, but they must have the same functional clauses. If the incumbent franchise requires an i-net, then the overbuilder must have a clause for i-net support. If the incumbent franchise calls for up to 12 PEG channels, then the overbuilder franchise must call for minimum number of PEGs provided. If the incumbent must provide interconnects and fiber ties in for a specific fee, then the overbuilder must provide equivalent interconnects and fiber ties ins for a fee with the same cost-share. No, that is not true either. In our FIOS franchise agreement, we took cost-eguivalent payments in lieu of actual (redundant) connections. It is also not true that the buildout reguirements have to be the same. Not a single FIOS franchise agreement has been rejected or even legally challenged anywhere in PA (or NY) for the reasons you are mentioning. | |
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marigolds
Gainfully employed, finally
Premium,MVM
join:2002-05-13
Saint Louis, MO
| Re: Just wire up all of PA You just said you took cost equivalent payments in lieu of connections, which is exactly what I said in my paragraph (except I called it i-net support, same thing... the overbuild pays money to offset what the incumbent already spent).
We had the opposite experience in Iowa, McLeod and AT&T brought a series of suits when franchises were issued with non-equivalent terms. | |
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marigolds
Gainfully employed, finally
Premium,MVM
join:2002-05-13
Saint Louis, MO
| Okay, here's the simple explanation:
47USC546(c)(1)(B) and (c)(1)(D) require existing material terms of a franchise to be consistent with the present and future assessed community needs for the area served by the franchising authority.
This is consistent with the community needs assessment process initiated under 47USC546(a)(1)(A) for the renewal of a franchise.
These terms must also be consistent with 47USC544 on the regulation of services, equipment, and facilities (which really sets only very broad outlines of what terms are inconsistent).
In order to issue a subsequent franchise consistent with the terms of a renewed franchise (and nearly every incumbent out there currently has a 546(h) or 546(a-g) renewed franchise), it must also conform to the community needs assessment use to establish compliance with 546(c)(1). If the franchise does not conform to the community needs assessment, then the franchise can be challenged by the incumbent under 47USC555(a) which allows the challenging of a newly issued franchise (under 541(a)(1)) if it adversely affects the incumbent.
While there is no specific prohibition against providing a 541(a)(1) franchise (which is what Verizon is pursing) without conforming to a community needs assessment, the incumbent can obtain injunctive relief against such a franchise if the incumbent is materially harmed and such a franchise would have to conform to assessed community needs once it comes up for renewal under 47USC546.
(Though I suspect Verizon will try to do something about 47USC546 before their franchises come up for renewal.)
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| cornelius785
join:2006-10-26
Worcester, MA
| oh right, let's wire up every OBSCURE house in YOUR state. why not my state? why waste money on wiring up towns that are sparsely populated that'll have much slower sign up rate? deploying fiber is already expensive, why make it more expensive and longer to pay back the invest? | |
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cypherstream
Looking forward to the future of things.
Premium,MVM
join:2004-12-02
Reading, PA
clubs:
| Re: Just wire up all of PA They can wire up your state too. Verizon can multitask. It's not the same people stringing the fiber in PA as it is in MA or any other state for that matter. It creates lots of jobs which is good for the economy. Just because Verizon is busy wiring up one state doesn't mean they can't do another one at the same time. More than 1 construction crew works for them.
It might be costly now, but they will have a state of the art network that will last the next 100+ years. Was it costly to run copper when that first came out? Probably. This is something that needs to be done, it's just were actually living through this phase. Not that we weren't around when they first started wiring the country with copper telephone lines and electric transmission lines. | |
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| Josimars
join:2001-04-24
Port Chester, NY | Bring it on Verizon. Show the comcast guys how it is done. We here in New York are having a ball. We can chose from Cable Vision, Verizon RCN and the satellite companies. Competition is good for the comsumer. | |
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Morac
join:2001-08-30
Riverside, NJ
·Comcast
| Don't expect FIOS in all of PA any time in the next decade or so.
FIOS came to NJ first and Verizon still hasn't wired the majority of the state and NJ is way smaller than PA.
Verizon ran their Fiber lines right passed my development and didn't bother to install FIOS there. I mean I can literally see the FIOS wires on the poll from my house. | |
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| SilverSurfer
join:2007-08-19
| said by cypherstream :Verizon should just wire up the entire state of PA while they are at it. I'd subscribe to a very robust triple play package with MR-DVR / Home Media sharing / Fast internet , etc.. the moment the fiber is lit. Get real. This may be difficult for you to take since Reading considers itself to be a "big" city, but you must know that but for Pittsburgh & Philly, the rest of the Commonwealth may as well be Alabama as far as connectivity is concerned? Neither the baby bells nor cable gives a crap about you if you aren't in the western or southeastern part of the state. Been there. Done that. Moved to So Cal. | |
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SND2005
Premium
join:2001-09-15
Im Over Here | Great! Fantastic news! Put Comcast out of business, or least make them try to compete and offer decent prices. | |
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GOLFnSUN
Enjoy the sun
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Avalon, NJ
 ·Sprint Mobile Broa..
·Comcast
| Re: Philadelphia Is Different said by CtrlAltDel :Even if approved, FIOS won't be available until 2016.  Wrong! The whole city would be covered by 2016. Fios TV would be available starting next year.
one-third of households within three years, 70 percent in five years and throughout the city in seven years.
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CtrlAltDel
WORSE. THAN. CARTER.
Arbitrary Text
join:2001-12-30
Backyard
·1and1
 ·Verizon Online DSL
·Comcast
| Re: Philadelphia Is Different said by GOLFnSUN :said by CtrlAltDel :Even if approved, FIOS won't be available until 2016. Wrong! The whole city would be covered by 2016. Fios TV would be available starting next year. one-third of households within three years, 70 percent in five years and throughout the city in seven years. I'm willing to wager that if Verizon doesn't pay-off the right people FIOS may be available in the year 2525.
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Rick
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-06
Waterbury, CT
clubs: 
| While I respect Verizon's efforts and agree that technologically wise they're offering a very good product...I have to question the viability of this whole roll out. And even whether AT&T Uverse had the better idea (gasp..did i really say that? )when it comes to their next generation plans.
Now..before any AT&T executive who may read this copies and prints this post and runs down the halls of their executive suite cheering in excitement at the mere suggestion of me being a convert to Uverse.. let me make clear I'm referring to the shorter term. Let's consider what is happening in the shorter term based on the recent news.
Landlines..getting decimated. Cable and cell phones are taking those customers.
It really is like McD's is losing their hamburger business when it comes to what is happening to the telco's in that regards.
DSL...getting decimated. Cable and the telco's own next generation products are taking those customers. It really is like Mcd's ALSO losing their fry business.
Given that this is occurring..what options do the telco's have to retain these customers? The problem with fios in the short term is the time that this roll out is going to take...and the cost involved. In other words..if Mr and Mrs Jones call in and say..I've had enough of these slow dsl speeds..WHAT CAN YOU OFFER ME?...which company will have the better ability to retain those customers? The company that says..well..golly..jeesh..maybe in 4 years when we get that skyscraper rewired we can give you fios? Or..the company that says ..here..here's your 10Mb Uverse. Or even the 18Mb Ultra.
The big upper hand that Uverse has is time. And their strategy which costs a lot less..gets a vrad to a neighborhood a lot faster than fiber will get to someones door..might just be the better hand in the near term as cable co's and specifically comcast roll out their docsis 3.0 network.
Both telco's have the big problem in that that rollout is moving apparently at light speed now. 28 more towns announced yesterday in fact. And that's only going to accelerate the loss of landlines and dsl..making it more critical that there is a retention tool available. And that retention tool has to be a better network offering more competitive speeds.
Who's going to have it..based on sheer numbers of homes passed? AT&T.
There's also another danger for Verizon. Ok..so 4 or 5 years from now..they have manhattan wired.
And say to the public..here's your 30Mb speeds.
By then..will it really mean anything? I mean.if the ante is getting upped right now to that and more and if people in a cable territory have had that available to them years earlier...what will that really mean to a consumer?
If history holds true it will probably be more or less viewed as a johnny come lately. A what took you so long?
Don't get me wrong. I think the choice and competition will be a good thing. But what will Verizons position be by then?
Years of landline losses. Years of dsl losses.
And a product that for many..really offers them nothing different.
There is one thing that Verizon can do to help themselves in all this. And that is to pull out every stop there is.
Night and day and weekends and holidays and whatever it may take..they have to be getting this fios network laid out.
It has to become more than essentially vaporware to the many people who can't get it. Theirs IS the better idea.
The better technology. The one that technicians and critics alike can better respect for their efforts.
But I'm afraid that if they don't up the ante big time..
time itself will not be on their side.
McD's cannot stand to lose their hamburger business..fry business..spend massive amounts of money on a new product hoping it will succeed in 4 or 5 years from now.
McD's will be essentially dead by that time if that were to be the case. Especially when the new burger chain moved in next door..and is offering what the cable co's will be in the very near future.
Interesting times. Huge challenges.
It will be something to see how it all plays out.
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cypherstream
Looking forward to the future of things.
Premium,MVM
join:2004-12-02
Reading, PA
clubs:
4 edits | Re: While I respect Verizon's efforts Really good point. But so far it's paying off. »So Far, Verizon's $23 Billion FiOS 'Gamble' Paying Off
But yeah, that's in the now. There's a big buzz that "Oh it's fiber to the door, it must be good!". But then again, where will we all be in 5 years from now?
Building the network and doing it fast could create a lot of jobs. There's contractors, in house, and other technicians that can join Verizon and ensure they have a good, steady job. Not only that but it will help local businesses connectivity with high speed internet and choice.
Honestly I would subscribe to Fios instantly if it were available to me. But the fact that there isn't even a peep about wiring up where I live, means we most likely won't see it within the next 5 years. So Verizon, you want to add to your subscriber numbers? Wire Fios in my area (zip code 19606) OR give me a 20% down payment on a house in PA where your services are offered and I'll agree to subscribe to triple play for the length of the 30 year mortgage. Come on Verizon, what's cheaper? Wiring up a whole area with fiber, or giving me $30~$40k to put down on a house. Make me an offer Verizon. Let's see, say my average bill is $200 a month. That's $72,000 for 30 years. (Of course that cost goes up as well). You pay me $40,000 to put down on a house, but you end up making $32,000 off of the deal, not to mention some huge positive PR. Imagine the headlines "Verizon gives customer down payment on a home in order to get Fios".
OR say you spend $6,000,000 wiring up my current area. Let's optimistically say 150 subscribers join for an average of $135 a month. That's an income of $7,290,000 over 30 years, so you make $1,290,000 over that time or $43,000 a year (about one person's salary). I'm pretty sure though that you would get more than 150 subscribers in a 6 million dollar system with all of those commercials we see on TV. Comcast also has a lot of negative PR, so take advantage of it. Come on Verizon, let's crunch some numbers. | |
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| russotto
join:2000-10-05
Collegeville, PA
| said by Rick :Landlines..getting decimated. Cable and cell phones are taking those customers. And who is one of the biggest cell phone providers in the US? Verizon Wireless.
DSL...getting decimated. Cable and the telco's own next generation products are taking those customers. It really is like Mcd's ALSO losing their fry business.
If McD's fry customers switch to McD's salads, McD's doesn't cry about it, they just make more salads. That's why Verizon wants to get FIOS in place.
I've had enough of these slow dsl speeds..WHAT CAN YOU OFFER ME?...which company will have the better ability to retain those customers? The company that says..well..golly..jeesh..maybe in 4 years when we get that skyscraper rewired we can give you fios? Or..the company that says ..here..here's your 10Mb Uverse. Or even the 18Mb Ultra.
Verizon is already in place with FIOS in the suburban counties in the Philadelphia area. The reason Philadelphia is last are both economic (costs more to wire, less affluent areas) and political, not technical. As for businesses in the skyscrapers... well, I think we can assume VZ isn't going to wire the Comcast Tower. But if Comcast's business service in Phila is like Comcast's business service in the suburbs, businesses will flock to FIOS when it's available. | |
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| jester121
join:2003-08-09
Lake Zurich, IL
·surpasshosting
·ViaTalk
| said by Rick :There's also another danger for Verizon. Ok..so 4 or 5 years from now..they have manhattan wired. And say to the public..here's your 30Mb speeds. By then..will it really mean anything? I mean.if the ante is getting upped right now to that and more and if people in a cable territory have had that available to them years earlier...what will that really mean to a consumer? Rick, right there is the difference between Verizon's FIOS and all the rest -- 4 or 5 years from now they can very easily swap out the devices on both ends of the fiber and offer 100Mbps or 500Mbps. It's fiber, it can handle it.
Cable has to hope that DOCSIS 4+ will help them keep up, but AT&T's Uverse just doesn't have that kind of headroom at the infrastructure level, and that's why I predict they'll lose in the long run. I haven't heard anything about VDSL possibly exceeding 50Mbps, and that's with all the "trickery" at their disposal. | |
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centc408
join:2008-11-08
Fort Wayne, IN
 ·Verizon FIOS
| Japan Technologically Advanced Its funny about all these people who complain about FiOS. You know the US considering were the Free Speech country we don't even have half the network speeds that say Japan or xxx has? Japan's network speed is an average of 100 MBPS or more and were just now getting up to 50 MBPS? Not to mention that in Japan there's not much that you can't buy through a cell phone?
Fiber networking is great for everyone. Everywhere where theres significant population there should be fiber. Any new construction should be purely fiber. You know that on a SINGLE Fiber box you can have 400,000 subscribers vs. whatever the other company's limit is? | |
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VerizonBlows
@optonline.net
| Deployment is too slow By the time it reaches my area no one will even care. I would gladly subscribe to it if offered but it will take a decade for them to deploy it here. Joe Schmo doesn't care how his services are delivered. He wants a good price and dont think for a minute the cable companies wont compete | |
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SuperJoker
join:2005-11-21
Yermo, CA
·Verizon Online DSL
·Verizon west (ex G..
| Re: Deployment is too slow said by VerizonBlows :
By the time it reaches my area no one will even care. I would gladly subscribe to it if offered but it will take a decade for them to deploy it here. Joe Schmo doesn't care how his services are delivered. He wants a good price and don't think for a minute the cable companies wont compete
In California with all the empty houses in Verizons areas, I wouldn't be surprised that deployment is being either slowed or halted entirely.
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bakalao2k
join:2001-03-20
Chicago, IL | Re: Deployment is too slow I wish FIOS could be expanded to Chicagoland (AT&T).
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"Don't hate the player, hate the game..." | |
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FastiBook
join:2003-01-08
Newtown, PA | 2005. We have had FIOS since early 2005. What's taking them so long?
- A
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LETS GO METS! | |
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mrvid
join:2007-06-19
Levittown, NY
3 edits | I could see VZ offering FIOS to all in 10 years if.. My feelings on this; If all the states Verizon operates in granted, say, a 15 yr Franchise which required VZ to wire the entire state within 10 years & they can do it their way, then I would imagine FIOS could be available to just about all VZ customers in that time frame. These terms would not supercede current franchise agreements already in place though. I don't decide this for Verizon nor do I know their specific buildout plans but it just makes sense to me this way. I know it seems like a phenominal job but Verizon has the crew, the network, the footprint and I think they can get it done. | |
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| EPS
join:2008-02-13
Hingham, MA | Re: I could see VZ offering FIOS to all in 10 years if.. Hm- consider that a lot of states where Verizon operates they don't actually operate in the entire states. In areas where they aren't the incumbent ILEC they'd have to go through a lot more permitting and such to get the right to run wires. | |
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FiOS Coming To Philly
