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ACLU's take on Rigas arrests - WSJ Editorial Page
by oOOOo Tuesday 20-Aug-2002
»online.wsj.com/article/0,,SB1029···outlooks (registration required)

We haven't objected so far to the recent gaudy public "perp walks" of arrested CEOs. But now comes the ACLU to remind us that maybe everyone should.

Last week the ACLU's New York chapter sent a letter to the U.S. Attorney's Office for the Southern District of New York, which handled the handcuffs-at-dawn, media circus arrest of 78-year-old John Rigas of Adelphia Communications and is now conducting the Martha Stewart inquiry. First reported in the New York Sun, the letter urges prosecutors to leave the theatrics to Broadway.

"When a 78-year-old corporate executive, with no apparent history of violence, offers to surrender to authorities and to appear voluntarily before a court but is, instead, physically arrested and manacled and paraded before an array of photographers and television cameras, such a practice seems plainly unjustified and . . . calculated simply to cause public humiliation and embarrassment of the accused," the letter said.

We're not suggesting that anyone shed tears for the Rigas family or any other alleged corporate criminal. But neither should they be treated any worse than other accused felons, and that includes granting them the presumption of innocence. Had Mr. Rigas been, say, a superstar shooting guard for the Philadelphia 76ers with a history of violent crime, would his request to turn himself in have been granted?

Attorney General John Ashcroft has done nothing to discourage these attempts to publicly humiliate the accused, perhaps because he views the high-profile arrests as smart politics. "With each arrest, indictment and prosecution," says Mr. Ashcroft, "we send a clear, unmistakable message."

But the best way for the government to send a message is by convicting wrongdoers in fair trials based on evidence. And those trials should take place before a judge and jury, not TV cameras.

Updated August 20, 2002

Copyright © 2002 Dow Jones & Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved

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dboyle
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Hypocrites

I really hate it when people compare issues like this article. Alan Iverson didn't deserve to turn himself in, he should have been arrested just like anyone else. But just because that situation wasn't handled correctly doesn't mean John Rigas should get the same lax effort that was exhibited with Iverson. What kind of argument is, "He did it so why can't I?"

I do agree to some point that this is Bush's new crack-down on white collar crime, but so what. Would people rather he did nothing? I back the ACLU to a certain extent and I believe in innocent till proven guilty, but how much press coverage do common blue collar criminals receive? Would the ACLU be running to their side? The ACLU is playing the media just as much as Bush and they are trying to curtail it just the same.
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cbyrd
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Re: Hypocrites

Actually, Iverson should have never been paroled all those years ago. You can thank Former VA Governor Wilder for that one, one of his last acts in office I believe (those in the NE NC and SE VA area know what I'm talking about).

"The ACLU is playing the media just as much as Bush and they are trying to curtail it just the same."

You nailed it. Politics these days is not about doing your job, it's about making the 6 o'clock news. The days of making a decision based on what you though was right are over. Now you base a decision on what you think will get you the best press.
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Re: Hypocrites

ACLU, the same people who prosecute people putting up nativity scenes in their yards, now defending corporate criminals. They have sunk to a new low, and I thought they were already at the bottom.
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dboyle
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Re: Hypocrites

I don't want to give off the impression that I hate the ACLU. I think it's a great organization, in theory, but sometimes they just go to the far extremes and contradict themselves. In defense of the ACLU the nativity scenes was an act to only to separate church and state, not a direct attack on Catholicism or Christianity. They had nothing against religion, they just didn't want religion being able to have it's hands in government. Although these days everyone has their hands in government (IE: any lobbyist.) You can put nativity scene up in your front yard if ya like. They have nothing against religion personally, just when religion is used to influence the government and the way it works.

Boy did that get off track. heheh.
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Re: Hypocrites

It's okay D While I disagree with your views on the ACLU, I respect them. I am glad to see there are a few out there thinking about the issues
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Jackson$
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My thoughts...

Tim Rigas and Mike Rigas were also curtailed. All 3 share equal blame.. cant let one walk and have the other 2 cuffed-n-stuffed.. wouldn't be right.

What I want to know is why the dudes from Enron, Worldcom and other 'worse' offenders arent being hauled off at this stage in the game?

I think it boils back to the Rigas family not donating enough to the RNC/DNC.

Dave
dboyle
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Re: My thoughts...

Media manipulation. If you want to blame somebody, point the finger at the media. I still laugh at commercial timeouts in sports.

You only see what they want you to see.

BTW, I changed my text as ILoveLA2 was writing the below post. Just to let you know part of the erased part of my text included the first part of his post (the part about Enron.) I just didn't want to start a large frenzy, so I erased it and pointed the finger where few look because they are persuaded by it everyday.
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[text was edited by author 2002-08-20 22:28:20]

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Re: My thoughts...

Enron lucked out that they were only one of the first with accounting and audit problems. The masses have forgotten, or don't care about them anymore

Those of us in California have not forgotten what their corruption did to our power prices last summer I see one of their CEO's just pleaded guilty, I hope the whole management ends up in San Quentin next to Charles Manson, maybe they could play checkers lol
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Re: My thoughts...

You aren't defending Enron I hope.

cbyrd
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Enron didn't luck out on anything. The web that Enron wove was a bit more complicated than the "blatently steal money" tactics of the Rigas family.

We've already seen one arrest from Enron, you will see MANY more once all of the facts are known. I'll let you in on another secret...I guarantee that many of those will NOT be current or formor Enron employees. You don't pull off something that elaborate without the help of a LOT of been counters.
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oOOOo

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said by Jackson:
What I want to know is why the dudes from Enron, Worldcom and other 'worse' offenders arent being hauled off at this stage in the game?

I think it boils back to the Rigas family not donating enough to the RNC/DNC.
From stuff I've read addressing exactly this question (sorry, links not handy - but if you peruse the DowJones items on Yahoo news for Enron you'll likely find it) the short answer is a) the Rigases committed plain simple fraud in a massive but relatively obvious manner, and b) the Enron morass is far more complicated with far more devious legal furballs to untangle. No doubt those who really want to find conspiracy will find it, but I think the Rigases were low-hanging fruit in comparison to Enron, perhaps even to Worldcom. BTW, Mike Kopper (ex-enron) will plead out and cooperate with da gov today. »www.reuters.com/news_article.jht···=1354502 Enron's day is coming ...

Jackson$
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Re: My thoughts...

No doubt they ( Rigas folks ) have done SOMETHING wrong. Alleged or not, some wrong doings have occured.

What I meant by _my_ statement was if they would have been coffers for the body politic, maby they wouldn't have been dragged thru the court of public opinion on natioonal TV. Remember, they all offered to surrender on their own accords 3 days prior.

Someone wanted a face on TV.. So they grabbed the smallest carp in the pond just to make a point.

Very sad.

oOOOo

join:2001-12-10

Re: My thoughts...

If I tried real hard I could probably support that "allegedly" stuff and mebbe even squeeze out a tear. But after reading that piece in the Buffalo news quoting the Rigases as still clinging to that "have done nothing wrong" bs, I'm less tolerant of Rigas constitutional "rights" and more concerned about the shareholders, bondholders, employees and customers well-being. What is the guiding principle? 'Better 100 guilty men go free, than one innocent man be unjustly punished?' How much do the thousands of shareholders, bondholders, employees and customers have to suffer before we stop coddling these very few very enriched criminals and start seizing and liquidating assets?

Smallest carp? Lowest hanging fruit? No argument. Stupidest carp/fruit even. But I'll only go "allegedly" for $100million. After that, in my book they are just guilty; guilty as sin, guilty as hell, guilty, guilty, guilty. How much time should they serve for each additional $100million? Let's be swell and say 1 year. So they've got 29 years to serve? Hell, for $100 million I'll serve a year ... where do I sign up?
Hickerx2
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ACLU?

The ACLU sucks rocks!

Nothing but another organization that was founded in good faith and principle, completely prostituted by politicians and lawyers.

I compare them to labor unions. In theory and on paper, great organizations. In practice, nothing but a ball and chain on society.

The Regas' deserved to be made a spectacle of. There are alot of others that are given special consideration due to celebrity and that sucks. They all should be dragged behind a truck I think, but because they weren't, the ACLU decides to grab another opportunity to make some cash. Instead of suing because the Regas' were handcuffed, they should be suing because Iverson wasn't!
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Re: ACLU?

I compare them to labor unions. In theory and on paper, great organizations. In practice, nothing but a ball and chain on society

Your opinion, not mine. Oh, no more insulting me, unless you like getting threads locked.
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cpr2k
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Re: ACLU?

"What I want to know is why the dudes from Enron, Worldcom and other 'worse' offenders arent being hauled off at this stage in the game?"

Their day is coming. The wheels of justice turn slowly.

"You aren't defending Enron I hope."

Where in the world did you draw that conclusion from what was written?

"Nothing but another organization that was founded in good faith and principle, completely prostituted by politicians and lawyers.

I compare them to labor unions. In theory and on paper, great organizations. In practice, nothing but a ball and chain on society."

I agree. The ACLU is a caricature of it's original intent. Too bad.

"Oh, no more insulting me, unless you like getting threads locked."

What was written that even remotely resembled an insult? I have to confess though, I am tired of your whining, narrow minded comments; not to mention trying to play moderator regarding anything written *you* find objectionable. Anyone posting 1300+ comments in just 4 months (that's more than 300 posts per month) just loves to hear themselves talk (type). If that's an insult, so be it.
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Re: ACLU?

said by ILOVELA2:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And mocking religion has what to do with this?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dude, you are a weirdo!

There was no mocking of religion in that statement. You and your bleeding heart should go somewhere else and try to shove your "political correctness" down somebody else's throats.

There are enough posts in this forum that are relatively worthless without your crusading here. We don't really care what you take offense at or what you deem "proper" for this forum. It was here long before you and it will be here long after you. I'm sure AOL or MSN has some cuss-free, pro-queer, pro-minority, anti-abortion, and whatever other causes you crusade for, chat rooms.

It was the bleeding heart liberals like you that ruined this country.

BTW, that was NOT a political insult, that was a fact!

For the umpteenth time, we have some very intelligent, capable moderators here. Things will run just fine without you injecting your flawed morality into the mix!
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That's what he wrote in the Adelphia forum, as a result, the thread was locked. That is what I was talking about. Oh, and I really don't care if you have a skewed view of me, you are but one person out of a world of several billion, not really a majority.
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dboyle
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said by cpr2k:
... Anyone posting 1300+ comments in just 4 months (that's more than 300 posts per month) just loves to hear themselves talk (type). If that's an insult, so be it.

I have 1205 in 3 months (that's 400/month.) A lot of people say I like to argue... I do. I don't see it as a flaw, but a benefit. Some people are touchier than others; we all have our mean streaks, so be it. A high diversity of opinions makes for great stimulating thought. No need to attack each other personally. Attack the issues.

BTW, I'm a hypocrite most of the time.
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[text was edited by author 2002-08-21 01:47:53]

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Re: ACLU?

No need to attack each other personally. Attack the issues.

Good advice D, I am sorry if I contributed to any attacks, I apologize for any insults I have thrown out. Okay, not on to attacking the issues
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Jackson$
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Re: ACLU?

Instead of crying foul and having every message thread locked ( A/K/A being a whiner ), Why not defend your philosophical views. Good facts can shred.

Its best to stand up for what you believe in then serve on your knees towards someone elses goal.

If you think something is wrong, prove it or state your case. By continually crying and having all these message threads locked, your (more or less) trying to hinder everyone elses speech.

Dave

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Re: ACLU?

Because free speech ends when it infringes on the rights of others. I, and everybody else in here, has the right to have nice, friendly forums, where they can come in, learn about Broadband, and help each other out. Now, if a few decide they want to yell at people, swear, or just turn the forums into the equivalent of a bar room brawl or Full Metal Jacket Boot Camp, then those few are infringing on the rights of the majority who don't want that type of atmosphere to enjoy their rights. It's all over in the posting rules, no insults, keep it friendly, and that the public forums are for people from all ages and backgrounds, I don't know how you interpret that, but to me it says respect each other, help each other, and basically, treat it like a public place, which it is. It just shocks me at the lack of manners and good taste some people have on here, that's why I speak up. I wonder how many people have come in, seen some of the language and lack of respect in a few of the forums, and left? You have to admit, the Adelphia forum(and many others)sometimes resemble a shouting match, not a very good example to set. I am not afraid to stand up for what I believe in. With the road rage and wars in todays world, I guess I shouldn't be surprised at how cruel people can be to each other, but it still makes me sad. I am sorry if you feel the way you do about me, but all I can say is you are wrong. You have never met me, know nothing about my family, background, etc. The same goes for me judging you, I really don't know you or anything about you, other than your posts, which is hardly a basis to judge you on. We have enough hatred, anger, and lack of manners in the real world, must we bring it to the cyber world?
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hobgoblin
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Re: ACLU?

Ilovela2 justified his actions by saying

"It just shocks me at the lack of manners and good taste some people have on here, that's why I speak up. I wonder how many people have come in, seen some of the language and lack of respect in a few of the forums, and left?"

I believe this is one of the reasons that the forum has moderators, to keep the discussion within limits and remove offensive text etc. What annoys me and others is the way you continually bleat when someone says something that you disagree with. You also have to be careful not to turn this forum into some bland "my modem will not synch" boring nothing. Then people who may venture in to read some of the lively discussion may well depart.

Hob
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cpr2k
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"Anyone posting 1300+ comments in just 4 months (that's more than 300 posts per month) just loves to hear themselves talk (type)."

"I have 1205 in 3 months (that's 400/month.) A lot of people say I like to argue... I do."

"BTW, I'm a hypocrite most of the time."

I rest my case...
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dboyle
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Re: ACLU?

said by cpr2k:
"Anyone posting 1300+ comments in just 4 months (that's more than 300 posts per month) just loves to hear themselves talk (type)."

"I have 1205 in 3 months (that's 400/month.) A lot of people say I like to argue... I do."

"BTW, I'm a hypocrite most of the time."

I rest my case...

What case? The one that ends in an ellipsis... ?
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cpr2k
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Re: ACLU?

"What case? The one that ends in an ellipsis... ?"

Anyone that acknowledges posting 400+ posts a month, admits they like to argue and to being a hypocrite, proves my case that they love to hear themselves talk.

Thus "I rest my case..." is not an ellipsis.
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dboyle
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Re: ACLU?

said by cpr2k:
"What case? The one that ends in an ellipsis... ?"

Anyone that acknowledges posting 400+ posts a month, admits they like to argue and to being a hypocrite, proves my case that they love to hear themselves talk.

Thus "I rest my case..." is not an ellipsis.

Everyone is a hypocrite at one time or another, some of us admit it.

We all argue sometime in our lifetime (some more than others.)

I'm not so sure I love to hear myself talk, as much as I like to point out those of us who like to belittle others so they, in turn, can sit on top of the pedestal. As you can imagine this takes quite a bit of talking.

BTW, the phrase is not an ellipsis. The last three periods is an ellipsis. I was obviously mocking you for saying, "I rest my case..." when in fact the very existence of an ellipsis shows that you didn't. You not only contradicted yourself, but made a hypocrite out of yourself doing so. But that's okay because your allowed to pick out people's faults without admitting your own.
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[text was edited by author 2002-08-22 23:33:33]

cpr2k
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Re: ACLU?

What a waste of bandwidth. One of the problems with this forum is the nonsense you have to wade through to find useful information.

Yes, ... meets one of the definitions of ellipsis. The purpose of the ... was to leave the comment open for reply.

hypocrite: a person who professes beliefs and opinions that they do not hold.

contradict: to be contrary to; to oppose; to resist.

My comment was neither hypocritical or contradictory.

The kind of pseudo intellectual babble that passes for knowledge around here is stunning and a sorry comment on the the state of education in America today.
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dboyle
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Re: ACLU?

said by cpr2k:
What a waste of bandwidth. One of the problems with this forum is the nonsense you have to wade through to find useful information.

Yes, ... meets one of the definitions of ellipsis. The purpose of the ... was to leave the comment open for reply.

hypocrite: a person who professes beliefs and opinions that they do not hold.

contradict: to be contrary to; to oppose; to resist.

My comment was neither hypocritical or contradictory.

The kind of pseudo intellectual babble that passes for knowledge around here is stunning and a sorry comment on the the state of education in America today.

Thanks, I know exactly what they mean and my comments are completely valid. Just because you don't like or agree with my comments doesn't mean they are pseudo intellectual babble. But, thanks for the lesson about America's current state of education. Where would the world be without people like you?
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cpr2k
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Re: ACLU?

"Where would the world be without people like you?"

There are literally thousands alive today, that would not be otherwise, because of my clinical treatment and medical technology I personally developed and hold the patents on.

So, where would the world be without people like you?
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Re: ACLU?

Okay, 86 the insults, I am sure nobody likes getting them.
Hickerx2
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said by ILOVELA2:

Your opinion, not mine. Oh, no more insulting me, unless you like getting threads locked.

Where did I say that it was your opinion? You remind me of a kindergarten kid. "I'm telling on you if you say bad things to me"...LMAO

I'll tell you what. You quit trying to be the forum police and I'll quit telling you to stop trying to be the forum police.
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Re: ACLU?

How about being nice, that would be a start. It's called manners, something else they taught you in Kindergarten
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Hickerx2
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Re: ACLU?

Oh, and BTW, I probably hold the DSLR record for locked threads. I like to argue too
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cbyrd
Where's The Any Key?

join:2001-07-11
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Well I'm not exactly sure what kindergarten is....oh wait, the time I spent in what you now call Germany between '73 and '76 might remind me....wait, it's coming to me....

kindergarten

\Kin"der*gar`ten\, n. [G., lit., children's garden; kinder (pl. of kind child, akin to E. kin kindred) + garten garden.] A school for young children, conducted on the theory that education should be begun by gratifying and cultivating the normal aptitude for exercise, play, observation, imitation, and construction; -- a name given by Friedrich Froebel, a German educator, who introduced this method of training, in rooms opening on a garden.

Now, I can personally attest to the fact that I attended a true kindergarten, in the land that invented the idea....I also learned to read and speak German (not a great feat, the English language and Germanic languages all have the same root)...

Sometime when I wasn't bashing religion, democrats, or anyone else who's on my mind at the moment (as you quoted me), I learned Spanish and French.

Not everything is what it seems to be on the surface. Everything you encounter in your lifetime will be tainted by your own personal views (myself included). The interesting things happen when you cast aside your preconseptions and take a look at what's happening around you. Can we please move on?

Summary:

ACLU = Good Idea gone bad
PETA = Strange Idea gone really bad (um we're omnivores but we're no longer going to eat what we require to sustain life..)

Politicians = S C U M They all cater to the highest bidder. Oddly enough this is the one thing that we can directly control, yet people continue to elect the same S C U M over and over again.

Western California = part of the country we all thought would be at the bottom of the Pacific by now.
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[text was edited by author 2002-08-21 23:08:44]

cpr2k
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Re: ACLU?

"Western California = part of the country we all thought would be at the bottom of the Pacific by now."

Since I live as far west and as close to the "edge" as almost anyone can, I hope your prediction doesn't come true anytime soon.
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cbyrd
Where's The Any Key?

join:2001-07-11
Murfreesboro, NC

Re: ACLU?

I'm glad someone still has a sense of humor
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Hickerx2
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join:2001-03-04
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Well, some people don't respond well to a well-mannered request. People have asked you numerous times to quit playing Moderator, yet you continue. This is a BB forum, not a sermon.

Consideration is also learned about kindergarten age, was it that long ago for you?
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Is this thread still going?

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