AT&T, Apple Bicker Over Wireless CongestionApple execs 'fumed' about limited backhaul investment 01:12PM Wednesday Aug 26 2009 by Karl Bodetags: competition · business · wirelessAT&T has already likely put their chance of an iPhone exclusivity extension at risk with their recent inability to support MMS support and tethering, made possible with the iPhone 3.0 software update. 29 global carriers not named AT&T had MMS ready to go at launch, and 22 of Apple's phone company partners not named AT&T already support tethering. An anonymous inside source this week proclaims to Business Week that Apple and AT&T have had internal fisticuffs over AT&T's wireless network congestion issues, and AT&T's upgrade plans: The executive says some Apple staffers fumed last year when AT&T told them of its plans to hype cell tower upgrades without investing in backhaul capacity. The concern was that AT&T's improvements might make it appear people were getting a strong signal on the phone, though the lack of backhaul pipes might still interfere with their phone calls or Web surfing. Apple was "dumbstruck," the person says. "For 50% of the iPhone customers, there would be no benefit." AT&T says they've already started upgrading towers to support HSPA+ speeds up to 7.2Mbps downstream, but that's not of much use if your 3G or earlier iPhone doesn't support those standards -- or the company's backhaul links remain congested. While upgrading backhaul and tower capacity isn't cheap, AT&T isn't exactly poor, either. Including both SMS and Internet access, the carrier not only saw lower turnover, but a 37.2 percent increase in wireless data revenues during the second quarter. AT&T's net income did drop from $3.8 billion to $3.2 billion, though that was largely due to landline defections, and money owed Apple they'll make up on long-term customer contracts. Still, investors want AT&T to ditch the $30 unlimited data plan and start imposing metered billing. During these discussions, AT&T CEO Randall Stephenson seems to have been under the mistaken impression that network reliability -- not the phone itself -- is responsible for AT&T's low wireless customer defection rate. Should AT&T fail to secure an extension for the iPhone and fail to get capacity and reliability issues in hand, Stephenson's going to have a particularly nasty wake up call when customers begin defecting en masse. Now in AT&T's defense, the carrier insists to us they're busy upgrading towers and backhaul connectivity. The company tells us they're doubling the wireless spectrum dedicated to 3G in most of the company's metropolitan markets, while adding thousands of new cell site backhaul connections. AT&T says they're busy deploying about 2,100 new cell sites and 100,000 new backhaul links (up from a planned 55,000) during 2009.
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baineschile
2600
Premium
join:2008-05-10
Sterling Heights, MI | Apple... Come to verizon... | |
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Rob
In Deo speramus, God Bless the USA
Premium
join:2001-08-25
Kendall, FL
 ·Comcast
| Re: Apple... said by baineschile  :Come to verizon... Except that they tried, initially, and Verizon showed them the door.
I'm sure that doesn't sit well with Apple.
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N3OGH
Bear patrol must be working like a charm
Premium
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs
 ·Verizon FIOS
 ·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Apple... I've said this here before. The CDMA iPhone all ready exists.
If Jobs went to Verizon first, then you know there was an initial CDMA version of the iPhone.
Love 'em or hate 'em, Apple is a company that has vision, and almost never fails to see the big picture. Every time the GSM iPhone has been updated, I guarantee a CDMA version was developed along the way. I have no doubt that the current incarnation of the iPhone has all ready been subjected to CDMA testing and is a finished product.
Verizon told Apple to take a hike because Apple wanted such a big piece of the pie. The iPhone, while still a phenomenal product simply does not have the exclusivity it once had. Products like the Pre and the Storm are direct and viable competitors.
Apple is pissed at Apple for not investing in back haul capacity. Apple all ready got their POUNDS of flesh from AT&T.
AT&T's exclusive contract for the iPhone ends in 2010. Apple will provide the CDMA iPhone through Verizon and maybe even Sprint some time next year.
Apple will get less of AT&T's pie due to the end of the exclusivity, and Verizon will get the deal they originally wanted from Apple.
Apple knows they've reached market saturation keeping AT&T as the exclusive carrier. To sell more iPhones, they need to branch out.
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Petty people are disproportionably corrupted by petty power… | |
| | | | antidelldude
join:2003-12-22
Rochester, MI | Re: Apple... Very Well Put. I can't believe so many people don't believe us. | |
| | | | | | | | | openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA | Re: Apple... I doubt the manufacturing hurdle is too great for Apple to easily overcome. Manufacturing costs may rise a little to sustain two product lines, but given Apple's margins, I don't think it's too much to absorb. | |
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SHABAZZ
join:2008-07-13
Seattle, WA | It’s no where near a 89 to 9 split. Where did you get those numbers? | |
| | | | pika2000
join:2005-10-13
Everett, WA | The iPhone is not US only product. Apple is looking at a worldwide market, and most of the world use GSM. Apple might go Verizon when they moved to LTE though, but definitely not CDMA. | |
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SHABAZZ
join:2008-07-13
Seattle, WA
| Re: Apple... America is a long way from a nation wide LTE network, it’s going to be 2014 before we even have spotty coverage and 2020 before that network replaces GSM completely. Apple is going to have to eat higher manufacturing cost to gain market share. There is close to 150 million CDMA users in the US alone and they’re not going away anytime soon. | |
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Eat Me
join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ
·PenTeleData
 ·Future Nine Corpor..
·VOIPo
·Vonage
| Re: Apple... said by Gbcue :said by SHABAZZ :America is a long way from a nation wide LTE network, it’s going to be 2014 before we even have spotty coverage and 2020 before that network replaces GSM completely. Apple is going to have to eat higher manufacturing cost to gain market share. There is close to 150 million CDMA users in the US alone and they’re not going away anytime soon. Really, half the entire population of the US? Verizon (87.7m subs). Sprint (48.8). 136.5m, not even close to 150m subs. 136.5m is only 13.5 million away from 150m. | |
| | | | | | | | Samsonian
join:2007-06-15 | Re: Apple... Throw in MetroPCS, Cricket/Leap, and all the other small, regional, and/or rural CDMA operators.
You get the remainder pretty easily. | |
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SHABAZZ
join:2008-07-13
Seattle, WA
| Yep, there seems to be around one mobile device for every individual in America. The thing that inflates this number is the fact that they’re a lot of people with more than one phone. My job provides me with a phone and I have one myself as well. There are a lot of people in that same boat. And they’re more than two CDMA carriers in the US. Cricket, MetroPCS, Tracfone, and US Cellular all come to mind. America doesn’t always follow Europe’s lead. We tend to let the consumers decide what to go with. And on a side note new wireless growth is going to come from Africa, China and India in the future because the US and Europe is so saturated already. | |
| | | | | | | fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| Ummm... really? yes.. your thinking is skewed when it comes to numbers of lines vs. population. I'm one person and I have a sprint phone and an iPhone. Someone in my home has a Sprint phone AND a Sprint phone.. his Comcast line is ran by Sprint as well. His boss carries two company phones AND a personal phone..
Its NOT uncommon for someone to have more than one phone in their hand be it by choice OR by reason of employment.
... care to do your math again? | |
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bobgwen
join:2001-07-07
Bartow, FL
·Comcast
| said by pika2000 :The iPhone is not US only product. Apple is looking at a worldwide market, and most of the world use GSM. Apple might go Verizon when they moved to LTE though, but definitely not CDMA. It is my understanding that T-mobile in Germany was the iPhone distributer exclusively. With these problems with at&t and the iPhone here, I wonder how T-Mobile is making out over there with the iPhone?
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tiger72
SexaT duorP
Premium
join:2001-03-28
Saint Louis, MO
clubs: | Re: Apple... their network isn't having the issues that ATT is having. Of course, i've seen reports that they're not making much money off the iPhone either. | |
| | | | | fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| said by pika2000 :The iPhone is not US only product. Apple is looking at a worldwide market, and most of the world use GSM. Apple might go Verizon when they moved to LTE though, but definitely not CDMA. What are you talking about? Apple had job postings for DCMA developers for the iPhone sometime late last year..
apple, if you know much about them, doesn't like to air their business too loudly - for a reason.
The CMDA market, in this country, where they can actually make some money on the phone, is not small potatoes. Even Verizon, moving to LTE, will not see a sharp drop in their current CDMA customers for up to 2 years. 2 years is the average life of a contract. In two years time, you're going to still make millions on iPhones in a CDMA environment. Sprint would LIKELY take on to the iPhone as well knowing damn well it would stop customer bleed as well as there are customers leaving simply for the iPhone and not other reasons.
I don't pretend, like many do here, that I know all the facts.. reason being is that no one really knows the facts that lie ahead.. the point is, many people's assertions of "knowing" is driven largely by persona hatred of one company to another.
The bottom line is, it's all about the numbers.. and as far as I see it, the numbers (in addition to the news of AT&T not playing to apple's standards - which we know are high) is what WILL ultimately drive the iPhone to the CDMA markets.
While GSM is in fact used by more than none world wide, apple still is a domestic company and makes a crap load of money at home.
And to who ever said that production costs would be high to run both lines doesn't know anything about production costs... chips are made and cramped into the little shell of the phone. It won't make the cost "rise" as was stated.. | |
| | | | jdb8167
join:2001-07-08
Maynard, MA | There are problems with CDMA/EVDO though. The big one is that you can't use the data network and voice at the same time. This is a limitation that does not affect AT&T and their 3G network. | |
| | | | | jdjbuffalo
join:2004-01-17
Denver, CO
| Re: Apple... They can already overcome this limitation. It is built into the CDMA Rev A. spec. The problem is that the carriers didn't put equipment in place to support this feature. So, from a realistic perspective it's the same as if they never added the feature but it is available. | |
| | | dlewis23
join:2005-04-18
Boca Raton, FL
| said by TKJunkMail :Much easier to go to T-Mobile since the iPhone woudn't need hardware changes. Exactly...
That's were its going to go next. It's much easier for apple to bring it to T-Mobile then Verizon.
If AT&T looses the exclusive contact next year, they wont bring it to verizon it doesn't make good economic since to build a another phone for just verizon when you can bring the one you have now to T-Mobile.
The only thing that sucks is T-Mobile's 3G network is pretty sad right now, but they are doing there upgrades quite fast. | |
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SHABAZZ
join:2008-07-13
Seattle, WA
| Re: Apple... They’re still going to need to make multi band phones. Remember there is more than a carrier being GSM or CDMA. It’s also the frequencies they use. T-Mobile doesn’t have a lot of spectrum in the US and most of their assets are in the AWS band (2.1) ATT uses a completely different band for their 3G GSM network. | |
| | | | fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
|
That's were its going to go next. It's much easier for apple to bring it to T-Mobile then Verizon. Possibly..
If AT&T looses the exclusive contact next year, they wont bring it to verizon it doesn't make good economic since to build a another phone for just verizon when you can bring the one you have now to T-Mobile. How do you come up with this? Verizon and Sprint both have a big chunk of subscribers.. it makes PERFECT economical sense to bring it to them.. 135 million customers is a lot.. Further it's not "just verizon".. T-mobile here in this country is still rather small potatoes.
The only thing that sucks is T-Mobile's 3G network is pretty sad right now, but they are doing there upgrades quite fast. You hit that one right on the head. apple wants their products to work a certain way.. it's what's bringing the anger out of apple right now. If T-Mobile can't handle or have the power to run the iPhone, why would they flood to T for?
This issue isn't about a world-wide issue.. it's purely domestic for apple. They're not trying to reach out to the world of CDMA users, they're trying to keep their phone users happy here in their own back yard. If ATT can't handle it, then they have to go elsewhere.. Verizon and Sprint are the next answers. | |
| | | openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA
·AT&T Southeast
| said by TKJunkMail :Much easier to go to T-Mobile since the iPhone woudn't need hardware changes. Isn't T-Mobile's network (especially their 3G) a step down from AT&T's coverage? I don't imagine Apple desires to make a bad situation, worse. | |
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tiger72
SexaT duorP
Premium
join:2001-03-28
Saint Louis, MO
clubs:
 ·T-Mobile US
·RoadRunner Cable
1 edit | Re: Apple... said by openbox9 :said by TKJunkMail :Much easier to go to T-Mobile since the iPhone woudn't need hardware changes. Isn't T-Mobile's network (especially their 3G) a step down from AT&T's coverage? I don't imagine Apple desires to make a bad situation, worse. By next year when the iPhone exclusivity is up, this will be quite different. They're rolling out 3g like crazy right now. Literally 2-3 markets a week are getting lit up with 3g.
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"What makes us omniscient? Have we a record of omniscience? ...If we can't persuade nations with comparable values of the merit of our cause, we'd better reexamine our reasoning."
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odinb
join:2001-11-26
Frisco, TX
| said by TKJunkMail :Much easier to go to T-Mobile since the iPhone woudn't need hardware changes. Not true...
Most of the world uses 2100MHz for 3G.
AT&T uses 1900MHz.
T-MO uses 1700MHz.
The iPhone does not support 1700MHz, and will therefor not work on the 3G network, only GPRS/EDGE will be available for your data.
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"It is the first responsibility of every citizen to question authority." - Benjamin Franklin | |
| | | | Samsonian
join:2007-06-15
| Re: Apple... It's a (relatively) simple matter of using a radio and antenna that supports 1700/2100 and 1900/2100.
ATT and TMO are both using HSPA, it's not like GSM and CDMA. The only major issue there is the band, and they're pretty close together as well, so antennas shouldn't be a problem.
This is only a temporary problem, the AWS 1700/2100 band is still young. Eventually all major handset radios will support it. | |
| | | patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
| said by TKJunkMail :said by baineschile :Come to verizon... Much easier to go to T-Mobile since the iPhone woudn't need hardware changes. Then nobody will get one since there is no coverage in far flung bedroom communities or 2000s built new suburbia, and if you live in an area with coverage, chances are it won't work in any elevators or indoors. Plus TM doesn't do in-market roaming onto the local 800 mhz GSM provider (usually AT&T). | |
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Gbcue
E.I.T.
Premium
join:2001-09-30
Santa Rosa, CA
clubs: | Re: Apple... My phone works in all those places AND roams on 850MHz. | |
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RARPSL
join:1999-12-08
Suffern, NY
| said by baineschile :Come to verizon... And T-Mobile - which is ALREADY a GSM system (and thus could support the current iPhones right now with the correct T-Mobile SIM and the phone not being locked to the ATT network) unlike Verizon which would need a new iPhone since Verizon is not GSM. | |
| | | jvanbrecht
join:2007-01-08
Bowie, MD
| Re: Apple... Tmobile would not work, atleast not with regards to anything faster then Edge speeds. Tmobiles 3g range is non std.
While that may seem trivial, the problems comes up when you try to use data and voice at the same time, this can be done on 3g networks, but on Edge, its one or the other. The other problem (which I noted with a number of smartphones that are not iphones), is that when you are using data, the person calling sometimes ends up in voicemail before the connection (data) drops and the phone rings... This has happened to me alot. | |
| | | | AVonGauss
Premium,MVM
join:2007-11-01
Boynton Beach, FL
| Re: Apple... I agree with everything you said, but it would not take or cost much for Apple to update the broadband support to allow the iPhone to be used on T-Mobile's 3G network in the US. The best thing Apple could do for the iPhone is to abandon it's US exclusivity option with AT&T. | |
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Dest
Bolo
Premium
join:2000-03-21
Naperville, IL
clubs:
| Re: Apple... Pre is CDMA... EVDO Rev A have never support data and voice at the same time, its not a matter of the phone its a matter of the technology.
EVDV was supposed to be able to do that, but never implemented, and the new CDMA extension also support data and voice, but that will be a while before we see any deployment | |
| | 
NOCMan
Verizon Fios User
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Flower Mound, TX
| I'm sure after losing a few million customers to the iPhone VZ is ready to improve their churn numbers at AT&T's expense.
AT&T puts a 7mbit capable radio on a tower but it's only serviced by a few T1's means you're getting a nice shiny new icon on your radio bar but not much else.
In fact they said Dallas would not see upgrades until 2012. By the time Verizon gets the iPhone I'll be able to pay less than 50 dollars ETF and ditch them..
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| | | | | itguy05
join:2005-06-17
Camp Hill, PA
| said by baineschile :Come to verizon... Why? Verizon's network sucks as bad as AT&T and would also crush under the iPhone stress.
Verizon = NOTwork, don't buy into the brainwashing. | |
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NOVA_Guy
Obama- Commander in Thief
Premium
join:2002-03-05
·VOIPo
| Re: Apple... I recently drove from VA to MO, and had my iPhone and laptop with Verizon aircard running much of the way. From the use I had on the road, I can say that Verizon had faster and more reliable connections most of the way, while my iPhone was stuck on AT&T's slow EDGE network much of trip.
This was sticking to major interstates the entire way.
While your experience may be different, mine indicated (to me, at least) that Verizon's data network was much better than AT&T's.
This is only part of the reason why next year I'm seriously thinking about ditching AT&T for either Verizon or Sprint.
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Trusting the Democrats to fix our economy and give us health care is like trusting the fox with keys to the henhouse, a brand new gas stove, and a pantry full of goodies for side dishes. In the end, all will be dead and nothing but lies will be told. | |
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Nightfall
My Goal Is To Deny Yours
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI
·AT&T Midwest
·Comcast
 ·Site5.com
| Re: Apple... said by NOVA_Guy :I recently drove from VA to MO, and had my iPhone and laptop with Verizon aircard running much of the way. From the use I had on the road, I can say that Verizon had faster and more reliable connections most of the way, while my iPhone was stuck on AT&T's slow EDGE network much of trip. This was sticking to major interstates the entire way. While your experience may be different, mine indicated (to me, at least) that Verizon's data network was much better than AT&T's. This is only part of the reason why next year I'm seriously thinking about ditching AT&T for either Verizon or Sprint. The only thing that your example proves is that it was good in your area when you used it and on your little roadtrip. I am sure if you drove through at a bad time or when the network was having problems, you would be singing a different tune. The point here is that we should all be choosing a cell phone based on how it is in YOUR AREA. Just because it sucks in one area doesn't mean it sucks all around.
The AT&T network is great in my area, and thats why I have it and the Iphone.
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My domain - Nightfall.net | |
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NOVA_Guy
Obama- Commander in Thief
Premium
join:2002-03-05
·VOIPo
| Re: Apple... What is also proves is that AT&T's 3G footprint wasn't as big as Verizon's was on the trip as well. While I don't make a habit of driving around the country checking this stuff out, it's still good to know how has the larger high speed data footprint.
I also travel quite frequently into western PA. AT&T's 3G footprint is quite lacking there outside of Pittsburgh and Erie, I believe. I can plug in my Verizon aircard and have high speed data in many places that AT&T just doesn't currently provide it.
In my case, Verizon apparently works better for me. Which is why I'm giving serious thought to moving my 5 lines away from them next year when the contracts expire. I love my iPhone, but first and foremost need it to give me access to high speed data in more places. "More bars in more places" from AT&T doesn't necessarily equate to better service or faster data.
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Trusting the Democrats to fix our economy and give us health care is like trusting the fox with keys to the henhouse, a brand new gas stove, and a pantry full of goodies for side dishes. In the end, all will be dead and nothing but lies will be told. | |
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Nightfall
My Goal Is To Deny Yours
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI
·AT&T Midwest
·Comcast
·Site5.com
| Re: Apple... said by NOVA_Guy :What is also proves is that AT&T's 3G footprint wasn't as big as Verizon's was on the trip as well. While I don't make a habit of driving around the country checking this stuff out, it's still good to know how has the larger high speed data footprint. I also travel quite frequently into western PA. AT&T's 3G footprint is quite lacking there outside of Pittsburgh and Erie, I believe. I can plug in my Verizon aircard and have high speed data in many places that AT&T just doesn't currently provide it. In my case, Verizon apparently works better for me. Which is why I'm giving serious thought to moving my 5 lines away from them next year when the contracts expire. I love my iPhone, but first and foremost need it to give me access to high speed data in more places. "More bars in more places" from AT&T doesn't necessarily equate to better service or faster data. Your "review" just proves out the 3g on your little roadtrip at the time you did it. Once again, just because "provider A" sucks doesn't make "provider A" suck nationwide, just in your area.
Now, you seem to understand that by stating that Verizon may be better for you and it probably will just based on your experience and area. Everyone should be choosing a provider and phone based on this, not just based on the Iphone. Whats the use of having an Iphone if you can't make a call or get it to work?
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en102
Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA
·RoadRunner Cable
·DSL EXTREME
| Re: Who DIDN'T see this coming? I would tend to agree.
Many came to AT&T 'just' for the iPhone.
Many still go to AT&T 'just' for the iPhone
Many have issues with coverage/service, but stay 'just' for the iPhone.
I don't expect all to leave, but I do expect a significant number (~20%) to bail to another carrier, and a significant number to sign up, as AT&T's 3G network has a much smaller footprint.
Personally, I don't like any carrier (including AT&T), however, I use them because it works (for me), and I have a discount through my employer.
I really dislike VZW, as I've had billing issues that I almost took them to court over (before carriers forced arbitration).
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Nightfall
My Goal Is To Deny Yours
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI
·AT&T Midwest
·Comcast
·Site5.com
| Re: Who DIDN'T see this coming? said by en102 :I would tend to agree. Many came to AT&T 'just' for the iPhone. Many still go to AT&T 'just' for the iPhone Many have issues with coverage/service, but stay 'just' for the iPhone. I don't expect all to leave, but I do expect a significant number (~20%) to bail to another carrier, and a significant number to sign up, as AT&T's 3G network has a much smaller footprint. Personally, I don't like any carrier (including AT&T), however, I use them because it works (for me), and I have a discount through my employer. I really dislike VZW, as I've had billing issues that I almost took them to court over (before carriers forced arbitration). I agree that many came to AT&T and stay with AT&T just for the Iphone, but I would like to know what number of those have issues with the coverage but stay? Would you say 25%? 50%? How about for any wireless carrier? How many people get a wireless carrier only to be dissatisfied with the service?
I think the whole "Many people are dissatisfied" statement is a farce.
The Iphone would be a cash cow for any provider right now. Verizon had their chance and showed Apple the door. I would only think that Verizon would do the right thing the second time around.
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| | | | sonicmerlin
join:2009-05-24
Cleveland, OH | Re: Who DIDN'T see this coming? Actually surveys have shown that for something like 32% of iPhone users network coverage and service is their number 1 gripe. It's an issue entirely for over 60%. | |
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Rob
In Deo speramus, God Bless the USA
Premium
join:2001-08-25
Kendall, FL
·Comcast
| AT&T: Milk it while you can.. AT&T knows there is little chance of an iPhone exclusivity extension, so rather than spend money to upgrade their network to please iPhone users, they are just going to milk iPhone users for everything they got.
AT&T you only have a few weeks left until the end of summer - better have MMS ready!
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NOVA_Guy
Obama- Commander in Thief
Premium
join:2002-03-05
·VOIPo
| Re: AT&T: Milk it while you can.. It seems like AT&T would be the only carrier that would run into these problems.
Why is MMS such a big deal for AT&T anyway? It's not like they haven't been selling tons of other phones that are capable of doing this for years. I take AT&T's worry over clogging up their network with MMS messages as an admission by them that their network just plain can't handle any significant amount of data.
How sad.
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Trusting the Democrats to fix our economy and give us health care is like trusting the fox with keys to the henhouse, a brand new gas stove, and a pantry full of goodies for side dishes. In the end, all will be dead and nothing but lies will be told. | |
| | | 
Pirate515
Premium
join:2001-01-22
Brooklyn, NY
|  Re: Go T-Mobile
said by Gbcue :I'm sure Apple has debated on whether to go with T-Mobile as well. They should re-think it since T-Mobile has such a large 3G footprint now. Most of AT&T's iPhone problem stem from urban areas where T-Mobile excels. If Apple wants to go T-Mobile route, they will need to have their suppliers start producing the new baseband chip that will support the additional frequency that T-Mobile is using for their 3G. Plus the current 3G and 3GS users will be SOL since even if unlocked, their phones will be limited to EDGE speeds on T-Mobile network.
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| | | | | | | gopnick
join:2005-01-07
Benton, AR
·Charter Pipeline
·AT&T DSL Service
| Re: Go T-Mobile They didn't buy a crippled radio. TMO just uses a different frequency for 3G than AT&T. You are correct, though; people buy new phones all the time. The radio issue is a non-starter of an argument against TMO. No reason Apple shouldn't sell the iPhone there, and on VZW's LTE network next year. | |
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n2jtx
join:2001-01-13
Glen Head, NY
·Optimum Online
| said by Gbcue :I'm sure Apple has debated on whether to go with T-Mobile as well. They should re-think it since T-Mobile has such a large 3G footprint now. Most of AT&T's iPhone problem stem from urban areas where T-Mobile excels. I am a T-Mobile subscriber but I have to say that being the number four carrier, I doubt T-Mobile's network is up to the challenge at this time. Several more years of network upgrades perhaps but not yet. AT&T was already substantially larger than T-Mobile when the iPhone arrived and they buckled under the network overload. I can't imagine what my phone service would be like if several million iPhone's suddenly appeared online.
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I support the right to keep and arm bears. | |
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See 24 replies to this post | |
Selenia
join:2006-09-22
Pittsfield, MA
·Verizon Online DSL
·RoadRunner Cable
1 edit | AT&T getting better here. It seems to be the backhaul in Pittsfield, MA and surrounding areas. Some of the surrounding areas were tolerable, but Pittsfield(widespread) and select areas were horrible to the point of unusable at peaks hours(usually calls were ok but for the occasional emergency call only, but data was horrendous), even with 5 bars. They even replaced my phones. No improvment(wasn't expecting one but was cooperating with script monkies). This went on for months with steady deterioration.
Now data seems to work very well here in the past several days. Latency is usually decent and connection is usable at peak times like it used to be. I am assuming it's a backhaul upgrade as some spots seemed almost like low-end 3G, but it was the same old EDGE with roughly the same signals(which were usually decent-very good).
Edit: I posted this from a phone on AT&T's network. | |
| | SuperWISP
join:2007-04-17
Laramie, WY
| Re: AT&T getting better here. Pittsfield, MA is not AT&T's home turf. They are paying huge bucks, through the nose, to Verizon for middle mile backhaul (what's called "special access"). So, it's quite likely that they have bandwidth limitations in that area.
If the FCC would act on the issue of special access, there wouldn't be a problem. | |
| Trollhawk
join:2005-05-28
| Why do people think another carrier would be better? AT&T has one of the largest, most advanced, networks in the country. If they're still upgrading the network, to better support the iPhone, what makes any of you think the situation would be better with T-Mobile or Verizon? No other carrier in the U.S. carries the iPhone, and until one does, you can't be sure that the iPhone won't bog down their network, like it has for AT&T.
It's been popular for people to beg Apple to bring the iPhone to Verizon, as if that will make everything all right. Well did any of those people notice this article, »Verizon App Store To Block Bandwidth-Intensive Apps, from this very site? It shows that Verizon may not fare any better, if they were to get the iPhone. | |
| | mobbo
join:2005-04-13
Denton, TX
·Verizon FIOS
| Re: Why do people think another carrier would be better? Not so much another carrier, but just not exclusive with AT&T. Just by having the iphone on additional competitive carriers would spark improvements. The problem now, and the sole reason I don't have an iphone, is because it's exclusively on AT&T. They have no incentive to improve their network capacity because... if you don't like it... where the hell are you going to go with your iphone? | |
| | | DarnellP
join:2004-10-12
Las Vegas, NV
| Re: Why do people think another carrier would be better? said by mobbo :Not so much another carrier, but just not exclusive with AT&T. Very true. Having the iPhone also spread out across Verizon's, Sprint's and T-Mobile's networks would ease the burden that AT&T's network is faltering under. It obviously wouldn't be the best thing for AT&T. However, it would benefit those iPhone customers that remained with AT&T as the customers that port away to use the iPhone with other carriers would free up capacity. | |
| | sonicmerlin
join:2009-05-24
Cleveland, OH
| Maybe because AT&T explicitly told Apple they were advertising 'upgrades' and 'higher speeds' while not upgrading their backhaul? In other words they're not upgrading their network.
Maybe Verizon will be more willing to in the face of criticism? | |
| | | mobbo
join:2005-04-13
Denton, TX
·Verizon FIOS
| "Dumbstruck" I've been trying to find the perfect word to describe the feeling I have whenever I've had to deal with AT&T... that is probably the best way to describe it. AT&T fails, in every sense of the word, at every product we have with them... I never thought I would hate a company more than Charter Communications, but AT&T has somehow taken that trophy.
Burn in hell, AT&T. | |
| | 
Telco_Tech
join:2009-05-18
Toledo, OH
| Re: "Dumbstruck" said by mobbo :Burn in hell, AT&T. I couldn't have said it better myself. Every experience I've had with that vile company has been awful.
- Tate
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Don't give AT&T a cent of your money. If you do, you're supporting warrentless domestic spying and one of the most crooked and inept companies in existence. | |
| | | bmialone
Premium
join:2009-08-15
Anchorage, AK
·Clearwire Wireless
2 edits | Re: "Dumbstruck" In 2003, it took a letter to my legislator, and one to the CEO of Verizon, to stop them from sending me a bill for $20 that I never owed them, for a paging service account I'd closed but they billed me for it anyway, and to prevent them damaging my credit record over it.
When my phone contract with Verizon ended in 2005, they kept ignoring my letters, phone calls, and emails to close my account. It took a letter to my legislator and a complaint filed with the FCC before Verizon closed my account. They refused to delete my private info, including my SS#, from their records even though I was no longer a customer.
In 2004, I caught AT&T slamming my phone bill by illegally signing itself on as my long distance carrier. Once caught, they quickly agreed to remove themselves from my account and to stop trying to bill me for the months they'd shown up on my bill.
Now I live in Alaska where we have only one cell phone company. Any local companies are really just using the one company's resources and then tacking on extra in the charge so they can make some money too. The one company was Cellular One, but they sold to AT&T. AT&T made us re-sign up with them despite keeping the same numbers, jacked up my price, and offered fewer options under the guise of more.
Cell phone companies force customers to provide our SS# unless we use prepaid by the minute plans, and say they need them to run credit checks even when they are not providing us credit to pay!
I hate them all. | |
| pika2000
join:2005-10-13
Everett, WA
| Unlock it. Apple, sell it unlocked, just like all your other products that are not tied to another companies' services.
Moving to another carrier won't do any good. Verizon has more draconian policy than AT&T. T-Mobile's 3G coverage is very sparse. Just be carrier-agnostic. | |
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NY Tel
Premium
join:2004-04-09
Smithtown, NY |  VZW
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MPScan
Premium
join:2001-08-24
Boston, MA
| Re: VZW AMEN buddy. We all sit here and complain about their prices, but they have the best wireless network. No matter how you twist the numbers, it's a fact.
They have the best FTTH implementation around and they will own the cable companies in their areas in the next 5 years.
Verizon knows what's up... I just wish they hadn't rushed the BlackBerry Storm just because of the iPhone competition. 
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The Government(tm): Just when you though the problem was bad, wait until you see how we fuck up the solution. | |
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NY Tel
Premium
join:2004-04-09
Smithtown, NY
·VOIPo
| Re: VZW said by MPScan :AMEN buddy. We all sit here and complain about their prices, but they have the best wireless network. No matter how you twist the numbers, it's a fact. They have the best FTTH implementation around and they will own the cable companies in their areas in the next 5 years. Verizon knows what's up... I just wish they hadn't rushed the BlackBerry Storm just because of the iPhone competition. Turned out to be the "most returned phone" in the history of the company. They are releasing a new one, the Storm II soon and perhaps that one will work.
You could hop over to the store on Summer Street and get it updated really quickly... | |
| VansHSI
join:2005-01-29
America
| Backhaul vs. Spectrum What most people don't realize is not only are they not properly upgrading their backhaul to support HSPA 7.2 but they've also maxed out their spectrum in many markets. The result being that no matter what they do on the tower or backhaul side their isn't enough room in the channels they own within the spectrum frequencies to support as many users as they have signed up.
Consequently ATT has gone out recently and purchased additional spectrum to help fill in the gaps... which hopefully will help the users.
Basically - iPhone demand completely overwhelmed ATT and not only were they not prepared it looks like they've been slow to stay on top of things as more and more users sign on. Apple really needs to start selling the handset on all carriers here in the U.S. | |
| | sonicmerlin
join:2009-05-24
Cleveland, OH | Re: Backhaul vs. Spectrum Citation please? | |
| | 
Space_Ranger
join:2002-07-15
| said by VansHSI :Basically - iPhone demand completely overwhelmed ATT and not only were they not prepared it looks like they've been slow to stay on top of things as more and more users sign on. Apple really needs to start selling the handset on all carriers here in the U.S. I agree with this....working in the call center I hav eseen it over the years.
When the first iPhone came out things were pretty normal....as the 3G came out, more calls about service and quality issues, and they have increased as the 3Gs sold more and more
The iPhone was an unexpected strain I think. Let it go to Verizon or TMobile and I suspect the same problems will occur over time. | |
| 
spike010101
Premium
join:2003-11-28
Lacey, WA
·Comcast
| Reguarding the second post.. Regarding how there "is" a cmda phone. Sure Apple may have gone to Verizon first, but that was when the iPhone was "USA Only". The fact that the iPhone is "WorldWide" now in many countries, there really is no benefit to offering two versions in the usa. Because that would require prototypes, testing, and everything done twice, which means twice the cost. In these conditions I highly doubt any company, even Apple would want to spend that much more money for a non-standard technology that's available in a select few countries. | |
| | compton
join:2002-02-08
Brooklyn, NY
| Re: Reguarding the second post.. said by spike010101 :Regarding how there "is" a cmda phone. Sure Apple may have gone to Verizon first, but that was when the iPhone was "USA Only". The fact that the iPhone is "WorldWide" now in many countries, there really is no benefit to offering two versions in the usa. Because that would require prototypes, testing, and everything done twice, which means twice the cost. In these conditions I highly doubt any company, even Apple would want to spend that much more money for a non-standard technology that's available in a select few countries. There are about 150 million CMDA users out there, and they are not going anywhere. Verizon is the largest cell phone operator and its customer base is growing; so, if Apple wants to increase their iPhone penetration in North America then they will have to sign on to verizon/Sprint. If Apple gets 10% of Verizon/Sprint customers then that's an additional 15 million customers for Apple all paying through the roof with American green back dollars. Bringing Verizon into the iPhone fold makes sense for Apple strategically as well as financially. This way they can head off any potential rivals before the competition gets any traction. | |
| 
appleatttmob
@charter.com
| Let 'em all sell it.
I'm with the idea that Apple simply lose the exclusivity deals period.
Let the other carriers bid for an opportunity to sell the device. Let them all sell it.
I have T-Mobile now and they have 3G solidly built out in my area. They were a little slow, but should surpass the 208 million POPS area by years end and the rest by mid summer next year. They also have HSPA + upgrades next year too along with major backhaul upgrades.
They also use a single band for 3G unlike ATT who has to constantly balance the load between cellular and PCS. This back and forth creates network inconsistencies and varied coverage reports all over the place.
I mean ATT sold the iPhone a couple years back over ATT's EDGE network and many users even in 3G areas run into the 2G network since the other one gets overloaded. | |
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tiger72
SexaT duorP
Premium
join:2001-03-28
Saint Louis, MO
clubs:
·T-Mobile US
·RoadRunner Cable
| Re: Let 'em all sell it. said by appleatttmob :
I'm with the idea that Apple simply lose the exclusivity deals period.
Let the other carriers bid for an opportunity to sell the device. Let them all sell it. The iPhone won't sell as well when everyone can get it.
Also, Apple won't be able to let ATT or whatever carrier take the heat for its poor app store decisions, bad reception issues, etc.
--
"What makes us omniscient? Have we a record of omniscience? ...If we can't persuade nations with comparable values of the merit of our cause, we'd better reexamine our reasoning."
-United States Secretary of Defense (1961-1968) Robert S. McNamara | |
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NOVA_Guy
Obama- Commander in Thief
Premium
join:2002-03-05
·VOIPo
| Re: Let 'em all sell it. said by tiger72 :Also, Apple won't be able to let ATT or whatever carrier take the heat for its poor app store decisions, bad reception issues, etc. I'm still not 100% convinced that Apple acted on their own here with banning, err, not approving, err, having an extended review period for Google Voice.
Think about it... One of Apple's chief complaints is that Google Voice would mimic one of the core functions of the iPhone (the phone part, of course). How many other apps are in the App Store right now that mimic other core functions of the iPhone?
I can point to a bunch that do SMS texting; that's a core function.
I can point to other audio players that stream Internet radio. That's mimicing the iPod functionality. Heck, Orb goes even one step further by allowing you to stream your whole audio and video collection from your home PC to your iPhone.
I still say that something smells downright rotten about Apple's and AT&T's story surrounding Google Voice.
I'm not saying that Apple doesn't deserve a finger or two pointed squarely at it for poor decisions here; I'm just saying that I find it extremely hard to believe that AT&T is as innocent as they claim to be.
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Trusting the Democrats to fix our economy and give us health care is like trusting the fox with keys to the henhouse, a brand new gas stove, and a pantry full of goodies for side dishes. In the end, all will be dead and nothing but lies will be told. | |
| 
jfmezei
Premium
join:2007-01-03
Beaconsfield, QC
·ELECTRONICBOX
| CDMA is proprietary and has no future. Not worth the effort. Haven't read everything, but have a few comments.
First, there is a difference between cdma and CDMA. "cdma" is a technique/philosophy to handle collisions on shared medium. "CDMA" is a proprietary network implementation owned by Qualcomm Corp which charges royalties for use of its network stack. That means that every handset manufactured that support's Qualcomm's proprietary protrocol sees parts iof its revenues flow to Qualcomm (aka: less profits for manufacturer and network).
Also, 3G GSM, instead of using tdma, uses cdma philosophy. Its implementation is called wcdma, to differentiate it from CDMA2000 which is Qualcomm's proprietary imkplementation for 3G.
Apple would have also seen Nokia's legal problems with Qualcomm with Qualcomm suing Nokia for stupid reasons, and Nokia in the end no longer making phones for Qualcomm's CDMA. Qualcomm should have learned not to sue its customers.
Finally, while this may not have been overly obvious a few years ago, it is now obvious that CDMA is at the end of the road and has become a dead-end. Sprint and Verizon will not be able to evolve to a 4G version of CDMA, they will need to move to the world standard "GSM" for 4G.
It is not a given that Apple would have actually manufactured even a prototype CDMA phone. That would have required that they sign agreements with Qualcomm to get the specs and chips/software to operate on a CDMA network. With GSM, you pay a flat fee for the documentation of the stack, and there are no royalties to pay for each handset.
So it would be far easier to develop a GSM handset prototype than a CDMA one.
Personally, I await availability of reasonably priced unlocked (as in: OEM, never locked) iphones before I buy one. Flying to europe to buy one is a bit too pricey for me | |
| | | | DarnellP
join:2004-10-12
Las Vegas, NV
| said by jfmezei :Finally, while this may not have been overly obvious a few years ago, it is now obvious that CDMA is at the end of the road and has become a dead-end. Sprint and Verizon will not be able to evolve to a 4G version of CDMA, they will need to move to the world standard "GSM" for 4G. Not necessarily true. Verizon has stated that they will continue to use their CDMA/1xRTT network for voice as far out as 2020.
»www.boygeniusreport.com/2009/05/···-page-2/
There's no reason to believe that Sprint won't adhere to a similar timetable. If Apple wants it, there is a viable market for a CDMA iPhone for the foreseeable future. Additionally, just this month, there have been upgrades released for the CDMA2000 specification to increase efficiency. It is now up to the carriers to decide whether they want to employ these upgrades to their existing networks or not. »www.cdg.org/news/press/2009/Aug17_09.asp
So it would be far easier to develop a GSM handset prototype than a CDMA one. Easier perhaps, but it's certainly not inconceivable for Apple to make a CDMA version of the iPhone. Handset manufacturers such as Samsung, LG, HTC, Motorola, RIM, etc. do good business producing both GSM and CDMA phones. There is no reason why Apple can't as well. | |
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jfmezei
Premium
join:2007-01-03
Beaconsfield, QC
·ELECTRONICBOX
| Re: CDMA is proprietary and has no future. Not worth the effort. Verizon/Sprint are already deprived of many world phones because the selection of CDMA phones is being reduced. In Canada, Bell/Telus are alreaduy installing GSM/HSPDA overlays because they know CDMA is dead.
Vodephone, part owner of Verizon Wireless has stated it would want Verizon to move to world standard so Verizon can benefit from its ownership and have its customers roam on Verizon when they travel to the USA.
re: value of OEM phones. OEM/unloackled phones are extremely valuable when you travel to get local service instead of having to pay outrageous roaming fees. Can't do that with a locked phone and you have to pay your home network's outrageous roaming fees. non-OEM phones often havce fdeatures disabled, menus changed etc. (not the case for iphone though). | |
| tuminatr
join:2003-03-19
Saint Paul, MN
·Qwest.net
| cdma is currently the dominant 3g in North America umm and china, and Japan just about everywhere but Europe CDMA is the best 3g network hands down, as for voice and data at the same time
»www.phonescoop.com/news/item.php?n=4705
and here is a 3g network comparison
»cellularmap.net/3g_compare.shtml
coverage is all about what works for you, Verizon ownes and operates about 95% of its domestic network AT&T about 50%
»cellularmap.net/net_compare.shtml
the easy way to think of it is the rest of at&t's coverage is rented, and just like all of us what is better cared for a rented apartment or a home that you own that is why they have good coverage when you are in the city and not so good when you leave | |
| | | | | DarnellP
join:2004-10-12
Las Vegas, NV
| Re: cdma is currently the dominant 3g in North America Umm, no. With respect, most of your post is simply incorrect, tiger. Have a look-see: »www.cdg.org/worldwide/index.asp
»www.cdg.org/worldwide/cdma_world···iber.asp
I might also suggest checking out some of the News and press releases on the site, for instance: "China Telecom has announced it plans to spend more than US$11.7 billion on CDMA network expansion and optimization over the next three years..." Additionally, as noted in a few previous posts, there are still enhancements being developed for CDMA2000. If you honestly think that the US is the only place where CDMA will be used in two years, you're just not paying attention.
For argument's sake though, even if CDMA was to only be used in the US in two years, there are 150 million+ CDMA subscribers. If they only penetrated 10% of that market, that's 15 million handsets sold. That seems very smart to me. | |
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tiger72
SexaT duorP
Premium
join:2001-03-28
Saint Louis, MO
clubs:
·T-Mobile US
·RoadRunner Cable
| Re: cdma is currently the dominant 3g in North America said by DarnellP :Umm, no. With respect, most of your post is simply incorrect, tiger. Have a look-see: » www.cdg.org/worldwide/index.asp» www.cdg.org/worldwide/cdma_world···iber.aspI might also suggest checking out some of the News and press releases on the site, for instance: "China Telecom has announced it plans to spend more than US$11.7 billion on CDMA network expansion and optimization over the next three years..." Additionally, as noted in a few previous posts, there are still enhancements being developed for CDMA2000. If you honestly think that the US is the only place where CDMA will be used in two years, you're just not paying attention. Fair nuff that 500 million people currently use CDMA. Judging by tables on the pages you link, CDMA's growth is slowing considerably, right as 3g growth is expanding on W-CDMA/UMTS systems. Either those markets are saturated, or the operators aren't investing anymore. GSM has over 3 billion subs. And that's increasing at the expense of CDMA. Countries like Japan and Malaysia began as CDMA, and in the last couple years have blanketed the nation with 3GSM/UMTS coverage. They've also stated their intent to use LTE.
Would you list any remotely large operators which will be using the CDMA2000 enhancements? They're all using WiMAX or will be using LTE.
For argument's sake though, even if CDMA was to only be used in the US in two years, there are 150 million+ CDMA subscribers. If they only penetrated 10% of that market, that's 15 million handsets sold. That seems very smart to me.
That 10% is putting a lot of assumptions on the line. Since the iPhone has been out for 2 years, anyone who was unfortunate enough to sign a contract right when the iphone came out and didn't want to break their contract is currently eligible to switch to ATT without penalty. That means, if you're on VZW and you've been waiting and waiting for an iPhone, there's no reason for you to stick with VZW. Unless, of course, the iPhone doesn't mean much to you.
And 2 years from now will have completed 2 full contract cycles. The folks just had to have the apple phone and who drove the iPhone's success went to ATT. The leftovers either don't care or prefer their service over a phone. Either way, that doesn't bode well for CDMA iPhone sales.
--
"What makes us omniscient? Have we a record of omniscience? ...If we can't persuade nations with comparable values of the merit of our cause, we'd better reexamine our reasoning."
-United States Secretary of Defense (1961-1968) Robert S. McNamara | |
| | | | | DarnellP
join:2004-10-12
Las Vegas, NV
| Re: cdma is currently the dominant 3g in North America said by tiger72 :Fair nuff that 500 million people currently use CDMA. Judging by tables on the pages you link, CDMA's growth is slowing considerably, Slowing perhaps, but still growing nonetheless.
Either those markets are saturated, or the operators aren't investing anymore. GSM has over 3 billion subs. Yes, GSM has more subscribers. That is not in dispute. However, that does not mean that their isn't a viable market for CDMA devices. As far as saturation, yes, I'd say that's the more likely scenario: »www.cbc.ca/technology/story/2008···nes.html
Would you list any remotely large operators which will be using the CDMA2000 enhancements?
Come now, the enhancements were just released 10 days ago. Let's revisit this sometime in 2010.
That means, if you're on VZW and you've been waiting and waiting for an iPhone, there's no reason for you to stick with VZW. Sure there is. AT&T's network or lack thereof.
And 2 years from now will have completed 2 full contract cycles. The folks just had to have the apple phone and who drove the iPhone's success went to ATT. The leftovers either don't care or prefer their service over a phone. Either way, that doesn't bode well for CDMA iPhone sales.
Yes, those who just had to have the iPhone went to AT&T. However, there are still those who would like to have the iPhone but simply refuse to switch to AT&T. Moreover, you read all of the complaints about the iPhone here, on HoFo on other places on the internet. It's not a stretch to figure that if the iPhone were offered on Verizon, Sprint etc. that a significant number of subscribers would defect from AT&T. In this survey 55% of iPhone owners said their biggest dislike about the iPhone was AT&T's network: »brainstormtech.blogs.fortune.cnn···bakeoff/ | |
| | op
join:2005-07-16
Smyrna, DE | att exclusive round 2 I say let it go for round 2. Why because att has the iphone so it knows what to expect, and because att is clogged that could be leverage for apple at the table. Apple can tell att to either upgrade there network, or they get kicked to the curb. | |
| TampaVoIP
join:2002-05-10
Tampa, FL
| Archaic infrastructure... Why is this country's infrastructure so archaic? Simple -- companies are more responsive to their shareholders and their short-sightedness than looking out for the company's own long-term best interests. Thus, none of these companies want to do the right thing and improve their infrastructure.
It's quite pathetic really. I often find it easier to get quality communications and more reliable power in 3rd world countries than I do in the United States. | |
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