AT&T Celebrates Open Access Failure, Threatens FCC Our friend Jim hints that the next few years could get very ugly... Earlier this week AT&T's top lobbyist Jim Cicconi could barely contain his laughter at the fact that regulators had ignored recommendations that the U.S. employ open access policies if they wanted to see competition and lower prices in the U.S. broadband market. Cicconi has also now issued a blog post in which he (surprise!) agrees wholeheartedly with Verizon lobbyists, who this week insisted the government should have no substantive ability to impose consumer protections upon phone companies. Cicconi essentially threatens both the FCC and Congress, warning them that they shouldn't even bother to try: Any other answer will appear as a means-justifies-the-ends rationalization by the Commission
an action it cant reasonably expect anyone in disagreement to accept. At best, it would lead to litigation and investment uncertainty. At worst, it will diminish respect for the Commission and paralyze their agenda so little else can be accomplishedincluding their ambitious NBP. In short, this is a serious question and decision
and it will require some serious adult judgment. As opposed to telecom policy dictated by under-aged mimes? The old "investment uncertainty" is a line carriers like to use as a carrot on a stick. Verizon, for instance, threatens Massachussets with "investment uncertainty" (no FiOS) if they force the carrier to pay property taxes. The threat, only made possible by a lack of competition in the first place, is a little less compelling when AT&T attempts it. Despite unprecedented deregulation over the last decade, AT&T chose to nurse last-mile copper instead of investing in fiber to the home. The investment uncertainty is AT&T's fault alone. Cicconi is, in very pleasant lobbyist speak, threatening both the FCC and Congress should they try to either extend existing authority, or even attempt to defend their existing authority. This is a new chapter in a very old fight, and it's a fight that's going to heat up substantially over the next few years as the FCC begins the rule-making procedures necessary to define network neutrality and put aspects of their national broadband plan into motion. The FCC is currently in court fighting over whether they had the right to "sanction" Comcast for lying to customers about throttling P2P services (a debate that actually began right here at Broadband Reports). They're in court because the rather flimsy network neutrality principles created by previous FCC administrations were painfully vague. Should the FCC lose their fight over Title 1 authority, the FCC may try to reclassify broadband services as Title 2 common carriage, giving them broader authority. That terrifies our friend Jim because consumer protections could mean slightly smaller huge bags of money, and Jim's job is, of course, to protect AT&T's pocket book. Jim -- and all the loyal politicians, think tankers, and PR folk Jim throws money at -- do this by pretending the path to low prices and telecom nirvana in the broadband sector is created when you allow AT&T and Verizon to do absolutely whatever they'd like. According to folks like Jim, Uncle Sam should simply be there to dole out subsidies and repeat press releases when asked. Both Jim, and the FCC, have a big fight ahead of them.
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 1 edit | Good I'm glad they are making a healthy profit each and every month. It allows the people using their services to cut back on other expenses and further rapes the economy.
It's ok though. The feds can just print more money so they can have more and more capital. | |
|  |  |  |  |  richdelbGo Hawks GoPremium join:2003-01-22 Algonquin, IL | Re: Good Amen brother. | |
|  |  |  |  markofmayhemI can haz competition?Premium join:2004-04-08 Pittsburgh, PA kudos:4 | Re: Good oppression -> revolution -> formation -> complacency -> apathy -> oppression -> ....
Don't fool yourselves, our system didn't stop the cycle. Leave it to your kids to suffer or fix it, the cycle continues regardless of your input: only power we hold is to determine where within the cycle we want to be for the next generation. -- I can haz competition? | |
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 ThrowDemsOutIf you can't convince 'em, confuse 'emPremium join:2002-03-03 Mullica Hill, NJ kudos:4 | House Committee not keen on Open Access anyway He really doesn't need to threaten Congress over Open Access. It looks like Open Access rules will never make it in to law anyway. During a hearing at a subcommittee of the House Energy and Commerce Committee, Open Access was dismissed as irrelevant.
»news.yahoo.com/s/pcworld/2010032···bandplan
Representative Mike Rogers, a Michigan Republican, questioned how Genachowski could talk about encouraging private investment in broadband and also propose new net neutrality rules that would prohibit broadband providers from selectively blocking or slowing Internet content. The broadband plan has sent a "shiver of cold" across the investment community, he said.
While Democrats generally praised the plan, Representative John Dingell, a Michigan Democrat, questioned whether the plan would open up "old policy fights" by leaving open the possibility that broadband providers share their networks. Dingell also said he was concerned about the broadband plan's proposal to take up to 120MHz of wireless spectrum from television broadcasters in exchange for a portion of the auction revenues. Both Republicans & Democrats attacked parts of the FCC plan. -- NCAA® March Madness on Demand® | |
|  |  2 edits | Re: House Committee not keen on Open Access anyway Actually that's not what Mike Rogers said at all. See, Mr. Rogers is confused about Net Neutrality. He thinks it's all about the FCC regulating content on the Net and picking winners and losers which is precisely what Net Neutrality prevents ISPs AND government from doing.
At 2:47:00 a confused Rep. Rogers agrees with Net Neutrality when presented it's definition by Genechowski »bit.ly/929daO
The biggest threat to Net Neutrality is allowing continued mis-information about it to spread. It's not a socialist takeover of the Internet as the lobbyist FUD would have you believe. | |
|  |  |  1 edit | Re: House Committee not keen on Open Access anyway said by Michael C:Actually that's not what Mike Rogers said at all. See, Mr. Rogers is confused about Net Neutrality. He thinks it's all about the FCC regulating content on the Net and picking winners and losers which is precisely what Net Neutrality prevents ISPs AND government from doing. At 2:47:00 a confused Rep. Rogers agrees with Net Neutrality when presented it's definition by Genechowski » bit.ly/929daOThe biggest threat to Net Neutrality is allowing continued mis-information about it to spread. It's not a socialist takeover of the Internet as the lobbyist FUD would have you believe. Listening to these Congressmen talk about the internet is just sad. Half of them have no idea what they're talking about. The stupidity had me facepalming over and over again.
The commissioners look like they're trying all they can not to crack up in laughter. Near the end one of the Congressmen is like "commissioner you're shaking your head over there, would you like to add anything?" after his utterly stupid and nonsensical question.
Ah the state of democracy in the US... ah well. | |
|  |  |  |  1 edit | Re: House Committee not keen on Open Access anyway I was also very concerned at Genechowski's half-assed response to Rep. Rogers. While I give him credit for saying he flat out doesn't agree with the statement that Net Neutrality is the FCC regulating the Internet, he really wussed out on backing up that comment. He should have made the point very clear and in no uncertain terms what exactly Net Neutrality is. Instead, he hid behind the "uhh...well...I inherited this issue from a previous ruling forcing Net Neutrality on a condition of merger." (which btw, AT&T saw enormous growth under those forced regulations »www.fcc.gov/ATT_FINALMergerCommi···2-28.pdf »www.freepress.net/files/Finding_···nt_0.pdf) | |
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| said by ThrowDemsOut:....Both Republicans & Democrats attacked parts of the FCC plan. both republicans and democrats are owned by big business. broadband in this country is on the slow road to nowhere and will remain there for the foreseeable future.
I guess I should consider myself lucky that I got FIOS before they stop deployments. | |
|  |  |  BF69Premium join:2004-07-28 Camden, TN | Re: House Committee not keen on Open Access anyway said by nasadude:said by ThrowDemsOut:....Both Republicans & Democrats attacked parts of the FCC plan. both republicans and democrats are owned by big business. broadband in this country is on the slow road to nowhere and will remain there for the foreseeable future. I guess I should consider myself lucky that I got FIOS before they stop deployments. And this country will fall further and further behind the rest of the world. These companies basically are putting profits ahead of national security which is basically treason in my book. | |
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1 edit | Rep. Rogers will sure change his mind after MI is left with Fontier and ATT and they don't see any thing change in their state. Oh wait, that has already happened since the state can't seem to get past they're no longer the Auto Maker state anymore.
But on the upside- at least the state can do something right and decide to get a smoke ban--that actually works and is needed in certain establishments. -- www.twopugsbrand.com ONLINE STORE NOW ONLINE! up to 50% off SRP of Happy Tails Spa products. | |
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 | | Big Jim: translation... "We're the phone company. Yeah... we bad." | |
|  |  | | Re: Big Jim: translation... And we all just mad.  | |
|  |  Tige join:2010-03-09 Greenville, SC | True.
Still, the FCC will eventually trip over a way to get Congress to start making life miserable for carriers, which in turn will pass off any new cost to them to us.  | |
|  |  |  neftv join:2000-10-01 Broomall, PA | Re: Big Jim: translation... got to love that mentality. Shows how much government is suppose to be for the people by the people. | |
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| Re: Big Jim: translation... if they enforced the Telecom act of 1996 we'd see more than the few telcos we have today when requiring others to build out their network. Now the only way to do this is to require open access on the telephone networks or to "spin" off the actual last mile. But then you have the problem with who is going to manage that last mile. in the UK it is still BT that manages and decides who gets to be on that network. So it really didn't do much. -- www.twopugsbrand.com ONLINE STORE NOW ONLINE! up to 50% off SRP of Happy Tails Spa products. | |
|  |  |  |  |  GaffEvery Villain Is Lemons join:1999-09-05 North TX, US | Re: Big Jim: translation... Really?
»arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news···tion.ars
In under-served areas BT can either choose to develop those communities themselves or private companies are allowed to go ahead and do it themselves and reap the profits for doing so.
Where no substantial competition exists, the regulator, Ofcom, uses price controls to ensure that those areas are not being gouged by the incumbents.
And this is only DSL-based, the cable-based industry in the UK offers substantial speeds across much of their footprint.
I looked into what sort of speeds I could receive at my old UK address a couple of weeks ago, out of interest. Turns out that if I wanted I could receive 50Mbit cable (with a free wireless-N router) for $57 a month, less with bundled savings; or 20Mbit DSL, with likely higher speeds from both cable and DSL available later this year. -- My PC Gaming Blog »thegaffadin.blogspot.com | |
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| Re: Big Jim: translation... yes Ofcom may price control but who still gets to decide on the network. BT. It still didn't do anything. It's still their network and they do as they wish expect with someone saying "hey you can't charge that" we already had that and it didnt' work.
The only other option. Force companies to start building out their own networks; the same thing the Telecom Act '96 was suppose to do. -- www.twopugsbrand.com ONLINE STORE NOW ONLINE! up to 50% off SRP of Happy Tails Spa products. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  GaffEvery Villain Is Lemons join:1999-09-05 North TX, US 1 edit | Re: Big Jim: translation... Actually, ownership of the infrastructure was spun off into a separate company called BT Openreach which manages wiring and connections on behalf of BT and also ensures that any competitor has equal access to the equipment.
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Openreach »www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/home.do
A perfect system? No, but leaps and bounds ahead of what passes for "competition" here in the US. -- My PC Gaming Blog »thegaffadin.blogspot.com | |
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 |  |  coldmoonPremium join:2002-02-04 Broadway, NC Reviews:
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| said by Tige:True. Still, the FCC will eventually trip over a way to get Congress to start making life miserable for carriers, which in turn will pass off any new cost to them to us. Which in turn opens the way for other carriers to leverage lower cost services to force a general reduction in costs overall as well as encouraging efforts to improve efficiency and productivity which eventually lead to even lower costs.
That is of course dependent upon Congress developing the right balance between regulation, incentives, and support for open competition.
Will be interesting to see how this all falls out and whether our current leadership can keep their backbones in place...
JMHO Mike -- Returnil - 21st Century body armor for your PC | |
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 |  WHT join:2010-03-26 kudos:3 | "We don't care, we don't have to...we're the phone company." Lily Tomlin as Ernistine | |
|  |  |  | | Re: Big Jim: translation... said by WHT:"We don't care, we don't have to...we're the phone company." Lily Tomlin as Ernistine Ahhh... my inspiration.  | |
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 camaro92Question everythingPremium join:2008-04-05 Westfield, MA | It's a sad day When our government has more control over it's own citizens then it does of a fortune 500 company basically mocking it saying "go ahead and try us you will be sorry", grow some frigggin balls. | |
|  | | Karl's right about one thing No one would be having these conversations if there were adequate competition, which would have been possible if there had been a free market from the start. These teleco's have been regulated and given gov't privileges from the very beginnings of Ma' Bell and this is now what we have. In that environment, loosening the regulations in well established monopoly markets won't foster competition.
It's a difficult problem (the lack of competition), and one that may never be adequately solved. | |
|  wdoa join:2001-10-16 Spencer, MA | God Bless The UCA United Corporations of America. | |
|  markofmayhemI can haz competition?Premium join:2004-04-08 Pittsburgh, PA kudos:4 | USA no longer equipped to practice democracy Our democratic process to elect representatives has broken down, not because of government, corporations, instant information, busier lives due to technology, etc.... but because the electorate has disengaged. The electorate no longer elects candidates to serve them. We, as voters, do not view government as our servants anymore. If government isn't serving the electorate, the system we use here in this country fails. It is a two-way street, with one-way action.
I charge people reading this to answer a question: When was the last time you voted for a candidate because they shared the majority of your political ideals? MAJORITY, not one or two, not due to party membership. You may be thinking to yourself, "there hasn't been a candidate like that"... I would agree, as I said, the problem is in both directions.
We don't have candidates that see the House and Senate as a greater calling to "God and Country". It is a monetary position to hold in establishing power to receive position for earning money during and after the term "served". They serve themselves, not the electorate.
This is YOUR fault. For one, the average "good citizen" doesn't put themselves on the ballot. Our candidates are people in the system looking to advance further up the power totem pole. We are no longer represented by ourselves, we our represented by the establishment. This isn't because all candidates are corrupt, it is because the electorate disengaged. The amount of money spent on advertising over radio, internet, and TV should be wasted money. This avenue of campaigning SHOULD have zero effect as it is used today. 30-second sound bites and quick "I love Mom and Apple Pie" internet flash side-bar ads shouldn't sway you to vote one way or another... EVER. But it does, because the electorate does not give the time and attention it should in deciding it's representatives. The voters failed, not government. Is it too much trouble to ask everyone practicing their voting right to spend 20 minutes a year and CHOOSE a representative that will serve their interests?
Each time I see news like this, where "government is bad because it doesn't force big companies to do ____", I cringe. For one, big companies are also represented by our government, in the same capacity and regard as the people. Their, what seems to be, endless wallets of cash appear to be winning "government" over more than our votes. OUR fault. Two, nothing will change. The electorate is stuck choosing their candidates in less than 30 seconds of thought process due to one of three criteria: Party affiliation, stance on abortion/life, promise to lower taxes. That's it. That is what our representatives are responsible for in the eyes of the electorate.
Forget that they are the stewards of the largest economy on Earth, forget that they are the chiefs of the strongest military on Earth, nevermind that other governments look to these elected officials to set trends and flows for the future... if they are red/blue, pro-life/pro-choice, and promise to lower a single tax: they will get your dumb ass's vote. A shame, for that no-name at the bottom of the list with a little "i" or some other letter that isn't R or D may have a 20 page document of "political stances and ideals" that is in direct agreement with your own, yet you throw your vote away for the more hot-topic agreeing candidate rather than a true representative. We need to clean House, but we need to do it with electing ourselves. Easy to claim, difficult to accomplish. | |
|  |  dagg join:2001-03-25 Galt, CA | Re: USA no longer equipped to practice democracy its like the ampm of the thread... so much good stuff....
some things to think about however. the last time i voted for someone that I shared the majority of their outlook was in a state legislature race... in 1992. While your idea for that is good, those being put up before us for elections are not so good. The field is constantly devoid of any real quality.
You say its my fault, because the average good citizen does not put themselves up for elected office. Ok, fine... elect me and ill serve. i dont see anyone lining up to put me in office even though id be willing to serve (hey, couldnt do any worse then those already doing it and at least I'd tell the lobbyists to shove it).
I dont entirely disagree with the fact that the (D), (R) or (I) indicators after a politicians name has much of anything to do with anything anymore since bad is pretty much bad and these days its rather difficult to see any differences between any of them.
so, while your critique of politics is a good armchair quarterback version of what needs to be done, are you actually ready to step up to the plate, let your life become an open book for all to inspect and dig up any (and I do mean ANY) potential hidden skeletons that might be there and toss your name into the ring? if so, kudos to you. if not... well, I guess you are really just being hypocritical then. | |
|  |  |  markofmayhemI can haz competition?Premium join:2004-04-08 Pittsburgh, PA kudos:4 1 edit | Re: USA no longer equipped to practice democracy It is not hypocritical to critique a system I'm only a member of one half in has broken down. I ran 6 years ago, I lost. It will take me another 5-7 years to raise the capital to try again.
Though I believe you may have not read deep enough into the critique I offered. The problem is two fold:
1. the candidates offered are not representing us 2. the electorate isn't electing representatives
The solution is the electorate changes. The methods to get there quickly and painlessly are unkown to me. I believe time and pain will be a requirement from ourselves. There has to be a beginning at some point, if nothing more than convincing yourself, family, and friends to take 20 minutes a year, choose one open office, and deeply research each candidate to choose the best representative you conclude, for you, by you... and forget the "they have a snowballs chance in hell to win, I'm throwing away my vote for a loser". Don't buy into it, vote for YOUR representative based on YOUR own research. It has to start somewhere. -- I can haz competition? | |
|  |  |  |  | | Re: USA no longer equipped to practice democracy Any of you can run for office. Your main problem is right back in the Telco and Media's collective lap. Paying for airtime to make yourself and your views known. | |
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 |  Sammer join:2005-12-22 Canonsburg, PA 1 edit | said by markofmayhem:The electorate is stuck choosing their candidates in less than 30 seconds of thought process due to one of three criteria: Party affiliation, stance on abortion/life, promise to lower taxes. That's it. That is what our representatives are responsible for in the eyes of the electorate. Quite a few voters spend more than thirty seconds making their choice but the truth is politicians lie. Our current President ran to the center and benefited from anger against our last President but clearly intends to govern from the the far left despite having no mandate from the voters to do so. Politicians like him and many others from both sides of the aisle only serve to polarize the voters in the long run. The most difficult thing for voters is getting rid of politicians who lie but unfortunately many politicians are so skilled at telling lies they get away with it repeatedly. | |
|  |  |  1 edit | Re: USA no longer equipped to practice democracy said by Sammer:said by markofmayhem:The electorate is stuck choosing their candidates in less than 30 seconds of thought process due to one of three criteria: Party affiliation, stance on abortion/life, promise to lower taxes. That's it. That is what our representatives are responsible for in the eyes of the electorate. Quite a few voters spend more than thirty seconds making their choice but the truth is politicians lie. Our current President ran to the center and benefited from anger against our last President but clearly intends to govern from the the far left despite having no mandate from the voters to do so. Politicians like him and many others from both sides of the aisle only serve to polarize the voters in the long run. The most difficult thing for voters is getting rid of politicians who lie but unfortunately many politicians are so skilled at telling lies they get away with it repeatedly. *facepalm* Far left? Are you deluded? What about about the recent healthcare bill is "far left"?
The bill is almost exactly what Republicans wanted back in '93. This would have been considered a Republican victory 15 years ago.
*YOU* represent what's wrong with America. There are too many stupid people who are so misinformed about real life and the world around them. They've been so spoiled by decades of America's world economic and military dominance they've never had to look beyond their own petty noses.
As they say, truth has a liberal bias. | |
|  |  |  |  joebarnhartPaxio evangelist join:2005-12-15 Santa Clara, CA Reviews:
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| Re: USA no longer equipped to practice democracy said by sonicmerlin:*YOU* represent what's wrong with America. Actually, Sonic, I think the only thing wrong with America right now is that people can't have a reasonable discourse without resorting to personal attacks. The political process can't work with all the vitriol. We all need to chill and persuade others with our rhetoric, not demonize them. | |
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 |  |  WhatNowPremium join:2009-05-06 Charlotte, NC | The biggest problem is most people only want to hear about the fight on the News. If they go into depth on issues they switch channel. Take the Health Care Bill just passed there was very little about what might be in the bill but most of the reports were about the fighting between the two parties.
When telephones first started there was open competition and the public got tired of every company running their own separate line. Look at the airline industry only one company may be making a profit. To much competition is good in the beginning but if no one is making money the infrastructure is not upgraded. Was the dot com successful for infrastructure? NO only about 1 company survived because most found it was harder and more expensive to build then it looks on paper.
For all those that are gung ho for net neutrality can the government come make you rent that spare bedroom at a set price. I have seen the Bells cut back on doing anything extra because they were being made to share under cost anything extra. That is one reason DSL hit 3 to 6 Meg and just stopped. More companies beget more CEOs and upper management not more technicians. | |
|  |  |  |  | | Re: USA no longer equipped to practice democracy said by WhatNow:The biggest problem is most people only want to hear about the fight on the News. If they go into depth on issues they switch channel. Take the Health Care Bill just passed there was very little about what might be in the bill but most of the reports were about the fighting between the two parties. When telephones first started there was open competition and the public got tired of every company running their own separate line. Look at the airline industry only one company may be making a profit. To much competition is good in the beginning but if no one is making money the infrastructure is not upgraded. Was the dot com successful for infrastructure? NO only about 1 company survived because most found it was harder and more expensive to build then it looks on paper. For all those that are gung ho for net neutrality can the government come make you rent that spare bedroom at a set price. I have seen the Bells cut back on doing anything extra because they were being made to share under cost anything extra. That is one reason DSL hit 3 to 6 Meg and just stopped. More companies beget more CEOs and upper management not more technicians. I don't know what you're trying to say. The lack of competition is directly related to the gutting of the 1996 Telecom Act by Republican FCC commissioners, Congress, and telecoms in court.
The dot com boom did lead to the buildout of a ton of infrastructure. It just happened so fast that most of the companies went bankrupt, and successful companies like Google were able to buy it all up for pennies on the dollar. | |
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| Re: USA no longer equipped to practice democracy most of that infrastructure is run today by the MSOs. Remember @Home? Comcast, Charter, Cox, Cablevision and many others were part of that deal. When @home went bankrupt the MSOs took over the network and still use and upgrade the systems still. -- www.twopugsbrand.com ONLINE STORE NOW ONLINE! up to 50% off SRP of Happy Tails Spa products. | |
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 |  |  JakCrow join:2001-12-06 Palo Alto, CA | said by Sammer:said by markofmayhem:The electorate is stuck choosing their candidates in less than 30 seconds of thought process due to one of three criteria: Party affiliation, stance on abortion/life, promise to lower taxes. That's it. That is what our representatives are responsible for in the eyes of the electorate. Quite a few voters spend more than thirty seconds making their choice but the truth is politicians lie. Our current President ran to the center and benefited from anger against our last President but clearly intends to govern from the the far left despite having no mandate from the voters to do so. Politicians like him and many others from both sides of the aisle only serve to polarize the voters in the long run. The most difficult thing for voters is getting rid of politicians who lie but unfortunately many politicians are so skilled at telling lies they get away with it repeatedly. Can you give us a break down on what far left policies he's implemented? Really. Can you? | |
|  |  |  |  markofmayhemI can haz competition?Premium join:2004-04-08 Pittsburgh, PA kudos:4 3 edits | Re: USA no longer equipped to practice democracy Stop!....
Far left, Far right... STOP!
There are more than "two" sides to everything, many many more. Republican - Democract. Left - Right. Socialist - Capatilist. Choice - Life. Conservative - Liberal. STOP! We need MORE choice, stop playing into the establishment where only two sides exist. If you have multiple opponents, you have to win yourself. If you only have one opponent, you don't have to win, they just have to lose.
IF YOU ONLY HAVE ONE OPPONENT, YOU DON'T HAVE TO WIN VOTES, YOU JUST HAVE TO NOT LOSE. Demoralizing the opponents voter base is strategy #1, not convincing people you will serve them as a representative.
If you can't see the difference, learn. Stop playing into the polarization. Both Democrats and Republicans want one opponent only. Force them to have more so that we get more topics. Haven't you noticed how much more in-depth primaries usually are? With 4-5 candidates actually giving views, projections, ideas, background, "plans". Then the real election comes and it turns into "My opponent was on top of a hooker last night and was looking at your daughter this morning". -- I can haz competition? | |
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| big government regulation: stop 1. healthcare-- regulate insurance company prices and bad pricing practices by the healthcare industry. stop 2. jobs--carrot & stick as many small businesses as possible to create jobs. punish those tho outsource jobs overeas & reward those who create high paying jobs at home in the USA. ....
stop 999,999,999,999. Regulate the OIL & ENERGY Markets... Stop commodity traders from controling the price at the pump & seasonal adjustments in gasoline & diesel. Diversity the sources of energy & create incentives to construct cheap and/or free alternatives.
etc.
The fed isn't the only owned & operated tool of big corporations.. they've got their hamhocks into your local & state governments too. For the telcos, it's quite expensive & dicy to try and manipulate local governments these days because they are very cash strapped these days.. and veer too far off course & see what happens at the voting booth! | |
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