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AT&T Could Owe You $146,000
FISA violation means $36,500 per claimant, per four years of wiretapping

The Legality blog has an interesting read on just how much telecom providers like AT&T could owe their customers should the lawsuit against them for illegal wiretapping be allowed to proceed. While there are more than forty potential suits currently open against Sprint, Verizon and AT&T, the EFF's case against AT&T is the most highly visible, given it involved a 22-year former employee turned whistleblower. If the EFF case proceeds and it shows widespread violation of FISA laws, AT&T would be in some serious financial trouble:

quote:
Code provision 50 U.S.C. § 1810 imposes civil liability on any person (or entity) for each violation of FISA. Victims of illegal surveillance are entitled to recover $100 for each day they were wiretapped, or actual damages over $1000, whichever is greater. Additionally, FISA provides compensation for attorney’s fees and other costs of litigation. . . As you may imagine, one hundred dollars per day, per person adds up over four years. If the Hepting lawsuit is successful, AT&T could face damages of over $36,500 per claimant per year. Nearly every person with a computer or phone in the United States could be impacted.
AT&T serves 14.2 million broadband customers and roughly 70 million landline users. If they were forced to pay $146,000 to each landline customer, AT&T could be facing a total legal liability cost of $10,220,000,000,000.

While highly unlikely given AT&T's lobbying & legal prowess, these kind of numbers make it a little more clear why AT&T and Verizon have been spending millions in DC over the past few years in order to get legal immunity for their involvement in these programs. Congress is currently on vacation, but when they return the House will be tasked with deciding whether or not to fight, or support, these companies' request for immunity as they move to renew FISA.
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rosco35
Premium Member
join:2003-11-10
USA

1 recommendation

rosco35

Premium Member

Send mine to...

I'd like mine in 20's and 100's please!

cabana
Department of Adjustments
Mod
join:2000-07-07
New York, NY

1 recommendation

cabana

Mod

Re: Send mine to...

said by rosco35:

I'd like mine in 20's and 100's please!
what he said
nasadude
join:2001-10-05
Rockville, MD

nasadude to rosco35

Member

to rosco35
I prefer direct deposit
banaa007
join:2007-09-09
Monsey, NY

banaa007

Member

Re: Send mine to...

I wil take the cheque.
nasadude
join:2001-10-05
Rockville, MD

nasadude to rosco35

Member

to rosco35
actually, since there's no way in hell consumers will see a dime, I would prefer that any telecom executives and lawyers that signed off on or agreed to do this for the government GO TO JAIL!

I don't know if the article talks about criminal penalties, but sending several top executive and top lawyers to jail would certainly provide a good lesson in civic responsibility.

FLATLINE
join:2007-02-27
Buffalo, NY

FLATLINE

Member

Re: Send mine to...

Civic responsibility??? Oh Please theres none of that in this country. As long as theres a Government or a Corporate Boss the sheep in this country will do whatever they are told even if its wrong. Its a shame.

Old_Grouch
Don't just sit there silly DO something
Premium Member
join:2004-05-26
Greenwood, IN

1 recommendation

Old_Grouch to rosco35

Premium Member

to rosco35
Actually, they will pay off in long distance cards that expire in two years...

Then, they'll sell their long distance business to Quest. When Quest nearly goes belly-up from honoring all the free long distance, at&t will buy Quest on the steps of the bankruptcy court...for pennies on the dollar of course.

Totally bogus...but fun to imagine.
The Antihero
join:2002-04-09
Enola, PA

1 recommendation

The Antihero

Member

Re: Send mine to...

said by Old_Grouch:

Actually, they will pay off in long distance cards that expire in two years...
That certainly wouldn't surprise me.

My wife had to rent a car awhile back, and apparently the company was involved in a class-action lawsuit that was effective during the time she had rented the car. The company sent her a discount coupon for her next car rental, which expired a few months later. And since neither of us had any reason to rent a car, the coupon went unused.

Since most people don't rent cars on a regular basis, I doubt the company was out any significant amount of money.

james16
join:2001-02-26

james16

Member

Re: Send mine to...

The class action lawyers are the ones who screwed you there. They're the ones who make the real money, the customers get a fraction of what they should.
LowRider
join:2006-06-23
Dallas, GA

1 recommendation

LowRider to Old_Grouch

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to Old_Grouch
said by Old_Grouch:

Actually, they will pay off in long distance cards that expire in two years...

you mean a month after you get them cause it took so long for them to get them to you.

supergirl
join:2007-03-20
Pensacola, FL

supergirl to rosco35

Member

to rosco35
said by rosco35:

I'd like mine in 20's and 100's please!
I want mine in Gold!
mlundin
join:2001-03-27
Lawrence, KS

mlundin

Member

I'm holding my breath...

Should be here any time now....

MrMoody
Free range slave
Premium Member
join:2002-09-03
Smithfield, NC

MrMoody

Premium Member

Class Action Lawyers

Until the lawyers get done dealing and you get a coupon for one free month.

S_engineer
Premium Member
join:2007-05-16
Chicago, IL

S_engineer

Premium Member

Re: Class Action Lawyers

But you'll have to send away for that coupon at your own expense!
jc10098
join:2002-04-10

jc10098 to MrMoody

Member

to MrMoody
No you give too much credit to the process. If this does proceed, we'll get the netflix deal. One coupon for a free upgrade for a month and then you MUST cancel that upgrade if you don't want to be billed for it!!

Boricua
Premium Member
join:2002-01-26
Sacramuerto

Boricua

Premium Member

Ching, ching

I could use a few extra coins in my pocket .

newview
Ex .. Ex .. Exactly
Premium Member
join:2001-10-01
Parsonsburg, MD

newview

Premium Member

I'll settle right now

for half.

Just send me a check.

MysticGogeta
The Robot Devil
Premium Member
join:2005-03-14
Katy, TX

MysticGogeta

Premium Member

Re: I'll settle right now

Same here

POB
Res Firma Mitescere Nescit
Premium Member
join:2003-02-13
Stepford, CA

POB

Premium Member

Negligible

Even if the Death Star were ever forced to payout, they could easily handle the financial ramifications of such a hypothetical settlement. $146k per claimant is chump change. They'd still easily have billions leftover. In fact, if they ever even had to defend against such a suit in court (which they never will) they'd most likely spend a hell of a lot more on legal counsel.

FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

1 recommendation

FFH5

Premium Member

Re: Negligible

said by POB:

Even if the Death Star were ever forced to payout, they could easily handle the financial ramifications of such a hypothetical settlement. $146k per claimant is chump change. They'd still easily have billions leftover. In fact, if they ever even had to defend against such a suit in court (which they never will) they'd most likely spend a hell of a lot more on legal counsel.
Maybe you should go back to math camp.

40,000,000 AT&T customers * $146,000 =approx
$5.8 trillion dollars. DUH!! I don't think they can pay that.
backness
join:2005-07-08
K2P OW2

backness

Member

Re: Negligible

So, for the record, do you support AT&T and VZ doing such massive monetary damage to the American People?
openbox9
Premium Member
join:2004-01-26
71144

openbox9

Premium Member

Re: Negligible

What massive monetary damage to the American people?
backness
join:2005-07-08
K2P OW2

2 edits

backness

Member

Re: Negligible

5.8 trillion in damages and it looks like the figure could be 10 trillion...

edit: speelin and mixed my billions with trillions
openbox9
Premium Member
join:2004-01-26
71144

openbox9

Premium Member

Re: Negligible

That damage would be to AT&T, not the American people...unless you're assuming AT&T will be found liable and the govt will bail them out at the expense of the American people's tax dollars.
backness
join:2005-07-08
K2P OW2

backness

Member

Re: Negligible

uh... the damages are in compensation for the violation of FISA law.

My implication was that, since TK is a strong supporter of civil damages (i.e. RIAA), he should have no moral bias towards the imposition of these types of fines towards a business entity which clearly violated the law and as such should be held accountable (as we have heard ad nauseum)

Thanks for taking all the fun out of it
openbox9
Premium Member
join:2004-01-26
71144

openbox9

Premium Member

Re: Negligible

Umm, ok. Sorry to ruin your fun I guess
amigo_boy
join:2005-07-22

amigo_boy to backness

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to backness
said by backness:

a business entity which clearly violated the law
What do we do about 18 U.S.C. 2511(2)(a)(ii)(B) which grants immunity merely if the AG certifies that a warrant isn't necessary? Or, U.S.C. 2702(a)(3) & (c) was amended in 2006 to reduce "reasonable belief" of "imminent danger" to merely "good faith belief" of "danger" (not imminent)?

Mark
ross7
join:2000-08-16

ross7

Member

Re: Negligible

said by amigo_boy:

said by backness:

a business entity which clearly violated the law
What do we do about 18 U.S.C. 2511(2)(a)(ii)(B) which grants immunity merely if the AG certifies that a warrant isn't necessary? Or, U.S.C. 2702(a)(3) & (c) was amended in 2006 to reduce "reasonable belief" of "imminent danger" to merely "good faith belief" of "danger" (not imminent)?

Mark
Maybe Robespierre had the right idea...

bear73
Metnav... Fly The Unfriendly Skies
Premium Member
join:2001-06-09
Derry, NH

bear73 to amigo_boy

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to amigo_boy
Repeal Patriot Act and similar fear-monger laws?
amigo_boy
join:2005-07-22

1 recommendation

amigo_boy

Member

Re: Negligible

said by bear73:

Repeal Patriot Act and similar fear-monger laws?
I'm ok with that. But, until then, it seems like fear mongering itself to say AT&T "clearly violated the law" when there are laws that clearly would cover the activity.

It's this kind of mentality which causes me to understand AT&T's desire for immunity.

Mark
81399672 (banned)
join:2006-05-17
Los Angeles, CA

81399672 (banned)

Member

Re: Negligible

said by amigo_boy:

said by bear73:

Repeal Patriot Act and similar fear-monger laws?
I'm ok with that. But, until then, it seems like fear mongering itself to say AT&T "clearly violated the law" when there are laws that clearly would cover the activity.

It's this kind of mentality which causes me to understand AT&T's desire for immunity.

Mark
Please tell me which law protects at&t when they violated the law?

•••

Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02

Karl Bode to FFH5

News Guy

to FFH5
As of the BellSouth merger they had 70 million landline customers...I assume they've lost a few million off of that total, but I'm not sure it's 30 million?

Still, yeah, with 70 million x $140,000 = $10 trillion?
tkdslr
join:2004-04-24
Pompano Beach, FL

tkdslr

Member

Re: Negligible

said by Karl Bode:

As of the BellSouth merger they had 70 million landline customers...I assume they've lost a few million off of that total, but I'm not sure it's 30 million?

Still, yeah, with 70 million x $140,000 = $10 trillion?
I'm fairly sure BS merger occured after the lawsuits were filed, and the FISA court oversight was re-established.

Howevere the BS/AT&T merger adds additional assets to the pot to be distributed to plantiffs.

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
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Mount Airy, MD

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said by FFH5:

Maybe you should go back to math camp.
This one time, at math camp...

DrewCapu
Giant Diehard
join:2001-12-19
California

DrewCapu

Member

Re: Negligible

Protractor?
Compass?
Yardstick?

Count Zero
Premium Member
join:2007-01-18
Milton, FL

Count Zero

Premium Member

Re: Negligible

Platinum Iridium Meter standard bar
SilverSurfer1
join:2007-08-19

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SilverSurfer1 to FFH5

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to FFH5
said by FFH5:

Maybe you should go back to math camp.

40,000,000 AT&T customers * $146,000 =approx
$5.8 trillion dollars. DUH!! I don't think they can pay that.
Before you jump on someone else pretending you know everything, perhaps you should go to law school - $146k is at best a very generous, above all, educated guess based on what the blogger at Legality believes a jury would award. If At&t were ever forced to settle, rest assured, the amount would be significantly less.
81399672 (banned)
join:2006-05-17
Los Angeles, CA

81399672 (banned) to FFH5

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to FFH5
said by FFH5:

said by POB:

Even if the Death Star were ever forced to payout, they could easily handle the financial ramifications of such a hypothetical settlement. $146k per claimant is chump change. They'd still easily have billions leftover. In fact, if they ever even had to defend against such a suit in court (which they never will) they'd most likely spend a hell of a lot more on legal counsel.
Maybe you should go back to math camp.

40,000,000 AT&T customers * $146,000 =approx
$5.8 trillion dollars. DUH!! I don't think they can pay that.
Sure they can. They can sell off all of their asset etc...i am sure that will bring 5.8 trilian when everything is said and done.

••••••
Expand your moderator at work
Mr Matt
join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL

Mr Matt

Member

The best government money can buy.

Don't hold your breath for any form of compensation. The telcos will probably receive immunity because they have the best government money can buy.

••••

XBL2009
------
join:2001-01-03
Chicago, IL

XBL2009

Member

Awesome!

I need the money!!!

koma3504
Advocate
Premium Member
join:2004-06-22
Granbury, TX

koma3504

Premium Member

Gold

Ill take mine in gold bars as it is probally triple that amount or more.

••••

icp1
Premium Member
join:2000-10-13
Saint Louis, MO

icp1

Premium Member

prove it

First you have to prove you were tapped, which the gov't will say "state secret" and toss the case...

not going to happen...

•••

woody7
Premium Member
join:2000-10-13
Torrance, CA

woody7

Premium Member

pffttt....

Now you know why there is a such a great push for retroactive immunity. It is/always about the money. No one gives a rats a$$ about your rights..Peace
amungus
Premium Member
join:2004-11-26
America

1 recommendation

amungus

Premium Member

what a shame

It's such a shame.

It's not even all about the money.

Sure, they'll claim it is, and logically the numbers will be extremely huge because they're freaking "ma bell" (got the ill communication ).

It's more about being responsible. They ought to just go ahead and admit it. Everyone knows what's really going on anyway, and the whole "oooh, but our secrets can't get out.." excuse is beyond lame. Nobody cares so much about HOW they're doing what they're doing, it's the why.

Not many people disagree that yes, they should be able to tap some things for purposes of tracking down a person, as long as 1) they have a just cause 2) they'll keep their end of the bargain and get a warrant - even if it is 'after the fact' by their most generous time limits of, what is it, 90 days???

If the agents can't even get a warrant within that time frame, then doesn't it seem reasonable that maybe, just maybe, it wasn't worth it in the first place and they should move on to "bigger fish" or something that might be worthwhile?

The part(s) most people have problems with, is all this is the idiotic notion that everything must be tapped and that big brother must watch everything. Why? What good does it do to have extraneous information that's completely irrelevant?
It's not only wasteful, it's underhanded, pretentious, and apparently, it used to be illegal.

Not illegal anymore I guess. That must be nice to be able to just change the laws to suit your self.

Why not give retroactive immunity to non-violent small time criminals who are overcrowding prisons across this country?
MyDogHsFleas
Premium Member
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX

1 edit

1 recommendation

MyDogHsFleas

Premium Member

This news item actually makes sense, sort of.

quote:
While highly unlikely given AT&T's lobbying & legal prowess, these kind of numbers make it a little more clear why AT&T and Verizon have been spending millions in DC over the past few years in order to get legal immunity for their involvement in these programs.

Well, DUH. This is exactly what I've been saying in other news article comments as this story unfolds. This is not about "illegal wiretapping" or "breaking the law". This is about a company trying to stay out of class action lawsuit hell.

My comment is: why shouldn't AT&T spend money on lobbying this issue? First, it's perfectly legal. Second, it's manifestly clear from a business point of view that it's in their interest to avoid being liable for billions or trillions of dollars in damages. If you owned stock in AT&T and they did not try to avoid these liabilities, you'd probably sue them for malfeasance.
quote:
Congress is currently on vacation, but when they return the House will be tasked with deciding whether or not to fight, or support, these companies' request for immunity as they move to renew FISA.

Jon, you've left out some important points.

(a) Congress left without renewing FISA at all! Your story completely glosses over that little detail.

Instead the Democrats decided to ram through procedurally loaded deals against the Justice Department over their hiring and firing practices. They've prioritized election-year partisan manuvering above working on national security.

(b) The immunity deal is a small part of FISA. You make it sound like that's the biggest issue. It's not.

•••••••••••••••

CUBS_FAN
2016 World Series Champs
join:2005-04-28
Chicago, IL

2 edits

CUBS_FAN

Member

Is it applicable to current subscribers only???

Just over 2 years ago I dumped AT&T when they merged(gobbled up) with SBC and screwed up my phonebill
I joined Vonage and now experience unlimited "Whenever" minutes to all of the U.S and Canada "eh"

nklb
Premium Member
join:2000-11-17
Ann Arbor, MI

nklb

Premium Member

already dropped?

I thought the courts refused to hear this due to lack of evidence (which was unavailable due to "national security" concerns)???
jimbo21503
join:2004-05-10
Euclid, OH

jimbo21503

Member

Giving back...

AT&T Giving back to their customers???? :: SHOCKED ::

Oh wait, they were forced to because they did something potentially illegal... doesn't count as charity or community service or doing your customers a service.

karlmarx
join:2006-09-18
Moscow, ID

karlmarx

Member

The bottom line is VERY SIMPLE.

AT&T and the others KNEW what they were doing was illegal. End of case. Do the crime, pay the fine. No if's, and, or but's about it. The LAWYERS at AT&T KNEW it was illegal, but the executives of said companies chose to ignore their advice. Guess what, the SHAREHOLDERS are the ones who are going to pay, not the public. I hope to hell AT&T is forced to pay out at least 40 billion in fines. That's the ONLY way the other megacorps are going to finally realize that breaking the law, WHEN THEY KNOW ABOUT IT AHEAD OF TIME, is going to cost them. So guess what shareholders, all your investments are going to be worthless. Oh well, you knew you were dealing with an evil company, but your greed overrode your common sense. Now you suffer for that same greed.

••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
lvlorpheus
join:2008-02-17
Springdale, AR

lvlorpheus

Member

I will be real fair with them

I will be happy with a FTTH connection. With a 15/5 connection, maxed TV in every room of my home, and TRUE unlimited voip and TRUE unlimited cell with data. I will even pay them $75 a month for that and they can keep my money. That I think is a pretty fair deal.

OSUGoose
join:2007-12-27
Columbus, OH

OSUGoose

Member

Hey AT&T

I'll take mines in the form of a VZ Fios style FTTP connection, that 146,000 sounds about right to replace all the copper and install the needed fiber componets for my area, thats including union labor.

Kylemaul
Lovin' My Firefox
Premium Member
join:2001-03-30
Puyallup, WA

Kylemaul

Premium Member

Re: Hey AT&T

So, you're only about 1,000 feet from the fiber distro?

OSUGoose
join:2007-12-27
Columbus, OH
Apple AirPort Extreme (2013)

OSUGoose

Member

No, see i even said that included replacing the copper (meaning whats up on the poles/underground feeding the neighborhood) with fiber, multiply that 146,000 by at least 20-50 homes in my neighborhood, they would have plenty to replace the copper with fiber.

PhoenixDown
FIOS is Awesome
Premium Member
join:2003-06-08
Fresh Meadows, NY

PhoenixDown

Premium Member

How about a compromise...

How about a compromise...

The telecom companies:
* Provide a reasonable over view of their warrentless wiretapping activities
* Agree to cease such illegal wiretapping efforts going forward.
* Agree to help fund (a few million each) and agree work with a independent committee (EFF?) for the protection of civil liberties in the digital era (think "ethics commitee")

In exchance we the people will cease existing lawsuits and agree not to go after damages.

•••
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