  en102 Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26 Valencia, CA
·DSL EXTREME
·DSL EXTREME
| Any you thought snarfing phone calls were it... Filtering / eavesdropping on my connection will keep me from signing any business (personal or other) with AT&T.
While I might have applauded AT&T for attempting to do FTTN as a viable product (jury is still out), playing buddy with NSA, on my calls is obviously not appreciated, and content filtering /deep packet inspection of my traffic is even worse. -- Canada = Hollywood North | |
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 |   MattE Obama '08 Premium join:2003-07-20 Jamestown, NC
·North State Commun..
·Corporate Colocation
| Re: Any you thought snarfing phone calls were it... said by en102 :Filtering / eavesdropping on my connection will keep me from signing any business (personal or other) with AT&T. While I might have applauded AT&T for attempting to do FTTN as a viable product (jury is still out), playing buddy with NSA, on my calls is obviously not appreciated, and content filtering /deep packet inspection of my traffic is even worse. Given the fact that AT&T transfers the majority of the internet backbone traffic, you may not have a choice, no matter WHO your ISP is. -- Pretty Fly for a White Guy | |
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 |  |   odog Cable Centric Vendor Biased Premium join:2001-08-05 East Lyme, CT clubs: | Re: Any you thought snarfing phone calls were it... UUNET is still slightly bigger, but the bellinator is not far behind. | |
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 |  |  |  raye Premium join:2000-08-14 Orange, CA | Re: Any you thought snarfing phone calls were it... BTW, Sprint has the largest IP backbone
Reference »www.renesys.com | |
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 |  |   odog Cable Centric Vendor Biased Premium join:2001-08-05 East Lyme, CT clubs:
·Vonage
·Metrocast Communic..
| said by MattE :said by en102 :Filtering / eavesdropping on my connection will keep me from signing any business (personal or other) with AT&T. While I might have applauded AT&T for attempting to do FTTN as a viable product (jury is still out), playing buddy with NSA, on my calls is obviously not appreciated, and content filtering /deep packet inspection of my traffic is even worse. Given the fact that AT&T transfers the majority of the internet backbone traffic, you may not have a choice, no matter WHO your ISP is. If they implemented this on their wholesale customers they would face massive defections, and possible lawsuits depending on the contract wording. I know I would drop them as a transit provider if they choose to implement this at a backbone level. | |
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 |  |  |  jester121
join:2003-08-09 Lake Zurich, IL
·ViaTalk
| Re: Any you thought snarfing phone calls were it... But most of the companies that actually ARE wholesale customers of AT&T WOULD welcome this -- less bandwidth to purchase from AT&T (thanks to thwarting pirate bandwidth hogs) = a few more months in business.
Why do you think they would defect en masse? | |
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 |  |  |  |   odog Cable Centric Vendor Biased Premium join:2001-08-05 East Lyme, CT clubs:
·Vonage
·Metrocast Communic..
| Re: Any you thought snarfing phone calls were it... said by jester121 :But most of the companies that actually ARE wholesale customers of AT&T WOULD welcome this -- less bandwidth to purchase from AT&T (thanks to thwarting pirate bandwidth hogs) = a few more months in business. Why do you think they would defect en masse? Because your customers would defect from you. If I was a customer of an ISP, and my ISP only used AT&T for their internet connection my customers would get mad at me for not being able to use P2P. Also if you are a business level customer you buy raw, naked internet, with no restrictions. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  jester121
join:2003-08-09 Lake Zurich, IL
·ViaTalk
| Re: Any you thought snarfing phone calls were it... said by odog :Because your customers would defect from you. If I was a customer of an ISP, and my ISP only used AT&T for their internet connection my customers would get mad at me for not being able to use P2P. Also if you are a business level customer you buy raw, naked internet, with no restrictions. Plenty of small businesses wouldn't mind AT&T filtering potentially illegal traffic from their network; it saves them some expense in installing filter/block software.
It all comes down to which direction the market takes. I'd say the vast majority of customers are going to shop price and speed, and if they find out afterwards that P2P doesn't work, they'll get over it. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |   DivineDark
join:2001-08-30 Oklahoma City, OK clubs:
·Cox HSI
| Re: Any you thought snarfing phone calls were it... said by jester121 :said by odog :Because your customers would defect from you. If I was a customer of an ISP, and my ISP only used AT&T for their internet connection my customers would get mad at me for not being able to use P2P. Also if you are a business level customer you buy raw, naked internet, with no restrictions. Plenty of small businesses wouldn't mind AT&T filtering potentially illegal traffic from their network; it saves them some expense in installing filter/block software. It all comes down to which direction the market takes. I'd say the vast majority of customers are going to shop price and speed, and if they find out afterwards that P2P doesn't work, they'll get over it. So what liability does this give the Telcos since they want to play nanny? What if child porn slips through or even worse a unreleased copy of X-Men? | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  |   anonymouse5
@rr.com
| Yep, sacrificing common carrier status would be stupid If AT&T or any of the other "big stupids" decides to start filtering their traffic for content: (1) it won't work. There's no way to identify all "unwanted" traffic, since it can simply be encrypted. If they required that all traffic whatsoever had a certificate approved by some central authority (the only way it could actually work), they'd have every business with a VPN up in arms -- and the certificates would be copied within seconds. (2) More significantly, it would sacrifice the common carrier status which Internet providers enjoy. Because Internet providers agree to carry all traffic on an equal basis, not discriminating, they are not liable for its contents under the "common carrier" doctrine. If they start discriminating they become liable. For *all* of it. They'd be bankrupt quite promptly, and executives would be in prison. This is a can of worms which AT&T's lawyers will tell them *not* to open.
Now, they can probably avoid sacrificing common carrier status if they only filter a short blacklist of material "opportunistically", by arguing that it's like the post office refusing to carry parcels which start emitting smoke. But obviously such a filter would be totally worthless and would exist only as an advertising-to-the-RIAA-and-MPAA gimmick. | |
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  ninjatutle
join:2006-01-02 San Ramon, CA | Good
I hate thieves. | |
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 |  quatrix
join:2005-02-11 Davie, FL | Re: Good "TROLL"! "TROLL"! Your ethics and honesty are unwanted on BroadbandReports. Sign yourself up for a karlmarx brainwashing and come back when you're nice and slimy. | |
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 |  |   ninjatutle
join:2006-01-02 San Ramon, CA | Re: Good Sorry, I don't believe in the BBR Cult. | |
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 |  |   N3OGH LVM, Forum Snitch Premium join:2003-11-11 Philly burbs | LOL
That's funny.
Karlmarx will be around soon, if he isn't all ready... -- Petty people are disproportionably corrupted by petty power
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 |  nutcr0cker
join:2003-04-02 Chandler, AZ | "I hate thieves."
LOL...Even the Air that you pollute, you are stealing from you children...ironic isn't it | |
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 |  |  |   Digital As-Salamu Alaykum Premium join:2000-07-24 Mentor, OH
| Re: Good said by ninjatutle :said by nutcr0cker :"I hate thieves." LOL...Even the Air that you pollute, you are stealing from you children...ironic isn't it I don't have children. I hate them too. Do you have mental problems? Did your mother drop your on your head as a child? I mean really 'ninjatutle' grow up. | |
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 |  bi0tech
join:2003-06-19 | Yeah I hate communications companies, hollywood media conglomerates, lobbyists, congress... oh wait | |
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 |  jjeffeory
join:2002-12-04 USA | So you hate AT&T too, right? | |
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 |  |   ninjatutle
join:2006-01-02 San Ramon, CA | Re: Good Not everyone here buys into BBR's propaganda machine hating all big co's  | |
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 |  |  |   KrK Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy Premium join:2000-01-17 Tulsa, OK | Re: Good It's not propaganda. It's good common sense. | |
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  jgkolt Premium join:2004-02-21 Lakewood, OH clubs:
| So Did they barrow some servers from China's internet brigade or are they just not for free speech on their network. I can see someone suing them because they blocked a site and the site is now losing revenue because of it. Maybe in ads or other sales. Isn't their a law against fair competition? How about one site banned has ads from a competing company. They would be in fact unfairly reducing competition unfairly. Can a lawyer speak up and continue on here and offer his two cents. -- »www.LakeSemaJ.com 3 free trades for me, 3 free for you. PM Me
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 |  Ahrenl
join:2004-10-26 North Andover, MA
moderated: October 4th, @08:29PM
| Re: So
There are no laws for what content AT&T can allow on their networks. In fact, as long as they have universal carrier status, they're not even responsible for illegal content on their network.
The only issue is that filtering content might remove their universal carrier status, thus making them libel for illegal content. But, under law, they can block ANYTHING they want. They could make it so that customers could ONLY get to the ATT.net portal if they chose.
Which is why service providers shouldn't be allowed to own national infrastructure without HEAVY regulation. Imagine if your electric company only dispersed electricity to appliances that they sold. And before you bring the utility argument, please understand that it is not possible to get a job that pays above the poverty level without an internet connection. At least not in the Urban/Suburban areas. | |
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 |  |  openbox9
join:2004-01-26 Navarre, FL
·Mediacom
| Re: So said by Ahrenl :And before you bring the utility argument, please understand that it is not possible to get a job that pays above the poverty level without an internet connection. At least not in the Urban/Suburban areas. Did you pirate your resume? What does obtaining employment have to do with blocking unauthorized content? | |
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 |  |  |  benc
join:2007-06-17 Glen Carbon, IL | Re: So I fail to see the connection. Don't you mail in your resume to get a job? | |
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 |  |  |  Ahrenl
join:2004-10-26 North Andover, MA | If I answer every question that has no bearing on what it is quoting we'll be here all night... and it kind of smells here.. {sniff} | |
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 |  |  Ignoring U Premium join:2003-07-26 ..
·AT&T Southwest
moderated: October 4th, @08:29PM
| said by Ahrenl :There are no laws for what content AT&T can allow on their networks. In fact, as long as they have universal carrier status, they're not even responsible for illegal content on their network. The only issue is that filtering content might remove their universal carrier status, thus making them libel for illegal content. But, under law, they can block ANYTHING they want. They could make it so that customers could ONLY get to the ATT.net portal if they chose. but 2 questions/statement, (1) ISN'T it against the FCC law or rule or (just an "unserstanding among the entertaiment/ broadcasting (TV) industry, that no SMUT.(xxx) will be broadcasted over the airways?
2 WHY shouldn't I be allowed to (IF i am paying for a service, (ie stars,time warner Directv,ect) be able to recorded the movies that are shown (for my own private collection) & burned onto a dvd?
jazzy -- SOME people make use of a chat forum the same way public walls are used for graffiti,I don't feel compelled to respond to their graffiti ,then I feel equally at ease about ignoring they're post,I'll go about making my post & having fun wih FRIENDS. | |
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 |  |  |  Ahrenl
join:2004-10-26 North Andover, MA
| Re: So The airways are a public network, leased out by the government for that specific purpose. The FCC also has indecencies laws (which are really just censorship) that allow them to levy fines for what some magical power decides is indecent. But now you're talking about TV.
Why? Because fair use was changed when they bought and paid for the DCMA. (or is it DMCA?) Anyway, what does that have to do with pirated content? YOU'RE not recording it, someone else is. | |
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 |  |   CylonRed Premium,MVM join:2000-07-06 Bloom County
·Speakeasy
| said by Ahrenl : And before you bring the utility argument, please understand that it is not possible to get a job that pays above the poverty level without an internet connection. At least not in the Urban/Suburban areas. Good god - BS galore... | |
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 |  |  |  Ahrenl
join:2004-10-26 North Andover, MA
| Re: So When's the last time you changed professions or hired someone?
While on occasion I've been handed a resume from a colleague as reference (which was emailed itself, and thus facilitated the reference), I've actually never hired (or heard of someone being hired) someone who was not posted through the network.
But of course, you know all.. | |
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 |  |  |  |   CylonRed Premium,MVM join:2000-07-06 Bloom County
·Speakeasy
| Re: So Ummm - my father got a job without needing a resume online (actually 2 jobs) and then there are job fairs... Really - a internet connections is NOT mandatory - a lot of the professional jobs that are gotten are via friends and collegues and not online. My IL's (father, mother, sister and brother) never had their resume's online nor did that have to email it - there is a things called phones and mail - still commonly used everyday.
While the internet makes it easier - it is hardly mandatory.
I just used common sense that is all... | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  Ahrenl
join:2004-10-26 North Andover, MA | Re: So Well, experience tends to make common sense useful. Without further information, your post doesn't even count as ancedotal. Job fairs? You really have no idea do you. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |   CylonRed Premium,MVM join:2000-07-06 Bloom County | Re: So No more anecdotal than yours and yes - we have a LOT of job fairs in this area with 2 universities and a major AFB. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  |  Ahrenl
join:2004-10-26 North Andover, MA | Re: So I'm not saying you don't, but if you think you're getting good jobs at job fairs, then that's where our miscommunication is. | |
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 |  |
  TK Junk Mail Golf season has returned - hurrah Premium join:2002-03-03 Margate City, NJ
·Comcast
| Blocking illegal content encourages more legal content
Filters that block content of course don't make more content available -- but such is the reasoning of DC lobbyists.
Blocking illegal content makes available more legal content as content providers feel more confident that they aren't being ripped off. So their statement is most likely accurate. -- -- Internet News My BLOG My Web Page | |
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 |  See 39 replies to this post |
|
 ackman
join:2000-10-04 Acworth, GA | "appropriate under the law." Um, that didn't really stop AT&T from breaking the FISA law by releasing private data to the government without a warrant or court order. Laws? We don't need no stinkin' laws! | |
|
  BodyBumper
join:2004-06-21 Beverly Hills, CA
| Goodbye The day AT&T puts this in place I'm leaving.
The term "Pirated material" is very vague, most of us think of pirated material as Movies and Music but it can go beyond that take the MediaDefender leak into consideration one could consider that as "pirated material" or what if someone leaks government corruption, the agency involved could claim that the information released is "pirated material.
AT&T probably won't respect fair use so say goodbye to those video or audio clips that you enjoy from movies, tv shows and even news clips.
I've seen it time after time where sites like youtube remove millions clips off their site and in a sense they are removing a part of history.
"copyright infringement" and "pirated material" should be handled on a case by case basis. ISP's should not get involved by instituting network wide bans of any material, doing so is censorship. -- "Time does not actually exist beyond an artificial measure we create in our minds to separate events we experience into blocks that are easier to reference instead of as a whole single event that just happens and continues happening" - evolvedant | |
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  meskinct This space for rent Premium join:2002-01-07 Danbury, CT clubs: | Good luck with that AT&T Good luck with writing that software AT&T. Everyone will just start encrypting everything and sue your ass if you try to break that encryption. | |
|
 jc100
join:2002-04-10
·RoadRunner Cable
edit: October 4th, @01:54PM
| So lets see ATT wants immunity from eavesdropping
ATT wants to filter and mine your data
What next? The ATT we want access to your PC policy to make sure nothing on there harms the company in any way? Better yet, how about the ATT banking records division. If we know your financial details, we can assess how much to charge you for broadband. If we find you are rich, we'll raise your price.... This company disgusts me.
I hope this immunity crap is NOT passed in congress. If it is, Americans can kiss their rights goodbye FOREVER. It'll be the final nail in the coffin signing away our freedoms to companies. Basically, this legislation will serve as the open door policy to allow businesses to do as they please. If the immunity does not pass (high doubt), then this action will open ATT for more lawsuits. What happens if they filter the upload of a home video, and cause it to be lost in transmission? What happens if a company's data gets corrupted because a filter suspects it's a pirated file? The sky is the limit and so are the problems with ATT. | |
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 |  ackman
join:2000-10-04 Acworth, GA
·AT&T Southeast
| Re: So lets see said by jc100 :ATT wants immunity from eavesdropping ATT wants to filter and mine your data What next? The ATT we want access to your PC policy to make sure nothing on there harms the company in any way? Better yet, how about the ATT banking records division. If we know your financial details, we can assess how much to charge you for broadband. If we find you are rich, we'll raise your price.... This company disgusts me. I hope this immunity crap is NOT passed in congress. If it is, Americans can kiss their rights goodbye FOREVER. It'll be the final nail in the coffin signing away our freedoms to companies. Basically, this legislation will serve as the open door policy to allow businesses to do as they please. If the immunity does not pass (high doubt), then this action will open ATT for more lawsuits. What happens if they filter the upload of a home video, and cause it to be lost in transmission? What happens if a company's data gets corrupted because a filter suspects it's a pirated file? The sky is the limit and so are the problems with ATT. If they try to buy Choicepoint, then your premise becomes reality... | |
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 |  |  jc100
join:2002-04-10
·RoadRunner Cable
| Re: So lets see I hope that's irony and not the truth... However, ATT isn't far from this bit of sarcasm. If they keep this up, they'll require your banking account and remote access to your pc. Then they will have everything they need to destroy your lives, in case they find something they deem questionable. Ah yes, Corporate America screwing the customer. Where have I heard that before.... Tyco.... Enron.. Woldcomm.... Etc. | |
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 |  |  |  ackman
join:2000-10-04 Acworth, GA
·AT&T Southeast
| Re: So lets see said by jc100 :I hope that's irony and not the truth... However, ATT isn't far from this bit of sarcasm. If they keep this up, they'll require your banking account and remote access to your pc. Then they will have everything they need to destroy your lives, in case they find something they deem questionable. Ah yes, Corporate America screwing the customer. Where have I heard that before.... Tyco.... Enron.. Woldcomm.... Etc. And somehow, after all the corporate abuse and power grabs, there are still people out there supporting the corporate welfare that our bought politicians keep doling out. Don't give welfare to the needy people in our society, that would be evil SOCIALISM! But it's ok to give corporate welfare. Can't abort the fetus, life is sacred. Then we veto poor kids' healthcare, while dropping bombs and fragging innocent civilians, just because we can label the whole group of them evil muslims. Sanctity of life is apparently only important if it can get us votes, right? | |
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 |  |  |  |   zachary1 you talkin' to me?
join:2004-03-07 right here | Re: So lets see Yes to PEOPLE socialism, No to CORPORATE socialism! | |
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 |  CableConvert Premium join:2003-12-05 Atlanta, GA | Why dont they just say "the check is in the mail", and "I'll pull out...I promise"...lol | |
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  iEvolution
join:2006-06-24 Ogden, UT | Better start asking gun manufacturers to control their usage Lets ask the gun manufacturer's to control what usage their weapons can be used for!
While we are at it lets ask OTC drug companies to control how we use drugs too. Better enforce the directions on the bottle! | |
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 |  LeeWL
join:2002-11-10 Morrisville, NC
| Re: Better start asking gun manufacturers to control their usage said by iEvolution :Lets ask the gun manufacturer's to control what usage their weapons can be used for! While we are at it lets ask OTC drug companies to control how we use drugs too. Better enforce the directions on the bottle! Then move on to cars. The fastest speed limit I know of in the US is 75. So, lets just slap an artificial limit of 75 on every car, coded right into the chip. Better yet. We can hook up a nationwide transponder system so that the car will only ever go the speed limit for that road. | |
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 |  |   MrMoody Sittin downtown in a railway station
join:2002-09-03 Clayton, NC
·Embarq
| Re: Better start asking gun manufacturers to control their usage said by LeeWL :Then move on to cars. The fastest speed limit I know of in the US is 75. So, lets just slap an artificial limit of 75 on every car, coded right into the chip. Better yet. We can hook up a nationwide transponder system so that the car will only ever go the speed limit for that road. This has been proposed multiple times. The only thing that saves us from this nannyism are the two groups that are against it: Auto manufacturers (new car sales would be impacted for years) and the states (who would lose a substantial revenue stream). -- "It is a future in which globalization really does work ... and everybody winds up getting to be part of the third world." - William Gibson | |
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 |  |  |   wolfox Gentle Wolfox
join:2002-11-27 Fayetteville, AR
| Re: Better start asking gun manufacturers to control their usage
There is already a federally mandated and enforced speed cap on SUVs made after 1995. Top legal speed, no matter how far you can stick your foot in it or how high the speedometer reads is 95 MPH. Food for thought. ;D -- Nothwest Arkansas' ONLY all Techno Radio Webcast, powered by SBC DSL! | |
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  morbo Complete Your Transaction
join:2002-01-22 00000 clubs: | AT&T would screw its mother...for additional revenue is there anything this company won't do for a buck? jeeze. you'd think selling out our nation's privacy to the NSA for the wink wink nod nod merger agreement would have satisfied them.
apparently not. | |
|
 moschops Premium join:2003-12-20 Oakland, CA
| "Pirated content" filtering If they start filtering "pirated content" it is only a mater of time before they decide to start filtering "illegal content". But "illegal content" is whatever the courts say it is that week.
I can see it now, all we need now is a widespread distributed attack on US websites and Internet addresses that causes the same kind of problems they had in Estonia. Before you know it there will be a sudden patriotic surge to defend the internet from cyberterrorists. The Department of Homeland Security will require ISPs to start filtering external packets from networks on demand, and all kinds of other draconian filtering will become the norm.
Filtering will also be used as an excuse for "tiered Internet" because ATT will claim it costs them too much money to filter other networks content so it is easier to either exclude, restrict or charge for it to pass through to their customers.
I for one hope that pretty soon consumer driven mesh networks like Meraki become widespread enough to create completely independent carrier free networks. Of course Homeland Security would probably want to make those illegal too since only non-patriots (read "terrorists") would want to use such a network right? | |
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 |  Asmodeus1
join:2004-05-26 Spring Valley, CA
| Re: "Pirated content" filtering said by moschops :If they start filtering "pirated content" it is only a mater of time before they decide to start filtering "illegal content". But "illegal content" is whatever the courts say it is that week. can you please tell us which court has deemed something as illegal content and on which week...? i'd like to know so i can do my proper due diligence based on the hyperbole you've just made a claim to... thank you... | |
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 |  |  moschops Premium join:2003-12-20 Oakland, CA
| Re: "Pirated content" filtering I think you missed the "it is only a mater of time before" part.
Regardless you seem to have forgotten there is already plenty of content deemed illegal - child porn would be one example, and the story is about another kind - copyright infringing content.
The question is would networks dare to start preemptively filtering content? I think the original story makes this obvious - yes.
But once you cite "national security" during a national crisis scenario virtually anything can be made illegal and get passed into law as Patriot I and II have proved. It can then take years for the Supreme Court to go back and overule such things as unconstitutional.
We may laugh about the Great China Firewall and how restricted the Chinese are, but it is clear that we are now laying the foundations for our very own wall - one packet filter at a time.
Cue Pink Floyd music... | |
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  Doctor Four My other vehicle is a TARDIS Premium join:2000-09-05 Dallas, TX | Might as well say it... War Is Peace
Freedom Is Slavery
Ignorance Is Strength | |
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 |   Yauch
join:2005-06-24 | Re: Might as well say it... Preach it brother four. | |
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 |  |  mlcarson
join:2001-09-20 Holt, MI | Re: Might as well say it... Why don't they put this filtering technology to good use by filtering SPAM and virii as it enters their network? People might actually support something like that. | |
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 |  |  |  Kearnstd Elf Wizard
join:2002-01-22 Mullica Hill, NJ
| Re: Might as well say it... said by mlcarson :Why don't they put this filtering technology to good use by filtering SPAM and virii as it enters their network? People might actually support something like that. because that doesnt please the corperate overlords who also hold stock in the entertainment industry, or congressman who are property of the entertainment industry. when someone is basicly a monopoly they dont have to do what is best for the customer which would be a cheap fast dumb pipe and email. -- [65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports | |
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