AT&T Raising Wholesale Loop Prices If you're on an indie DSL ISP, you will be seeing hikes... Thursday Feb 28 2008 09:44 EDT We're hearing from several sources over the past few days that AT&T is raising the wholesale loop charges for ISPs who do business with them. It looks like the changes should officially start on May 16, 2008, but you may start seeing your independent ISP raising DSL prices before then if they work with AT&T (some may be noticing the price hikes already). Small ISPs, for whom it's already hard enough to do business, aren't pleased. "The interesting thing is that even if you sold DSL service through AT&Ts "Term Pricing Plan" -- your rates are still going up," a high-level executive at one ISP tells us. "Even though you pay a higher price premium wholesale versus their "Zero Volume Commitment" (aka month to month), and they still can raise your rates." A document obtained by Broadband Reports confirms the May 16 hikes, and shows that while AT&T is lowering the wholesale price of their highest tier slightly, they're raising the price of the majority of their wholesale tiers by 44-46%. This of course comes on the heels of AT&T raising their own retail DSL prices by $5.  The problem for many ISPs is that they've given customers 12 months assurances of price, and they won't be able to pass this price hike along until those contracts are up. -Industry Executive |
"The problem for many ISPs is that they've given customers 12 months assurances of price, and they won't be able to pass this price hike along until those contracts are up," says a high-level executive at another ISP. "For ISPs that offer customers some sort of re-rate contract it could mean nearly 12 months of down side." Said exec gives us a concrete example of the kind of financial hit this incurs based on the new rates. "For an ISP with 5,000 customers, they'd be out $16,500/mo, for an "average" of nine months (presuming an average 3/4 of a year contract worth of liability per customer). That's potentially a $150,000 hit to the small example ISP." All of this of course eventually gets passed on to you, the consumer. And as you are seeing rate hikes, this is a service that's getting less and less costly for AT&T to deploy. "Bandwidth is getting cheaper, DSLAM ports are cheaper, modems are cheaper and fiber infrastructure (from RTs to COs, and between COs to POPs where Internet bandwidth is purchase) now has virtually limitless capacity thanks to DWDM," says one source. Of course he reminds us that hikes aren't based on cost, but what the market will bear. In other words, AT&T is simply raising rates because they can. And they can because they aren't seeing healthy competition in the U.S. market. It's good to be the king. "If you take a $20 retail product and make it $25 -- as they have done -- you've got $5 more in your net - but the costs might be $15 - so while your profit was $5, now it's $10 - a doubling in profit," says one exec. "Then, even if 10% of the customers depart, you've still got a $9 profit, way over your $5 starting point. Your costs actually FALL because of the departures too." "It's like minting money," he says. |
 | |
Just the begingingI see no point in this merger with Bellsouth, Cingular, SBC. This was supposed to lower prices? And now that at&t is in the position to do whatever they want - the smaller ISP's that use at&t for wholesale DSL service are really going to get screwed.
What tickles me to death is that Comcast uses at&t as there main backbone internet provider.... | |
|  |  FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ
1 recommendation |
FFH5
Premium Member
2008-Feb-28 10:14 am
Re: Just the begingingsaid by flycuban:I see no point in this merger with Bellsouth, Cingular, SBC. This was supposed to lower prices? And now that at&t is in the position to do whatever they want - the smaller ISP's that use at&t for wholesale DSL service are really going to get screwed.
What tickles me to death is that Comcast uses at&t as there main backbone internet provider.... Actually, Comcast doesn't - ANYMORE. They built their own fiber backbone and mostly just peer to AT&T like they do with many other backbone providers. | |
| | | | |
Re: Just the beginging99.999% of there peer goes to at&t... Just funny that they use there competitor for there main transit peering...They complain about at&t, but they use them on the back end. You would think they would use level 3 or some other company and not use at&t at all. Go Figure! | |
| | | | | |
Re: Just the begingingsaid by flycuban:99.999% of there peer goes to at&t... Just funny that they use there competitor for there main transit peering...They complain about at&t, but they use them on the back end. You would think they would use level 3 or some other company and not use at&t at all. Go Figure! They do it the same reason why my company uses it. When you request multiple pops from them it is much cheaper to get connections out all over the place. Main issue is when they upgrade core routers and they take a dive , it brings down the whole network. AT&T is just cheaper if you want diverse pops. I wish Verizon would do something to lower their diverse pop prices. I hate seeing my work traffic all going over at&t , I want to see diversity. | |
| | | |  NormanSI gave her time to steal my mind away
MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
Asus RT-AC66U B1
Netgear FR114P
|
to flycuban
The AT&T loop price hike is for their last mile service in the 13-state legacy SBC region. It should only affect DSL prices related to the DSLAM and ATM networks for at&t Yahoo! HSI subscribers. There should be no impact on the ILEC DSL prices in AT&T Southeast (the former Bellsouth FastAccess, which is now called, "AT&T FastAccess), or the reselling of CLEC services outside of the AT&T ILEC footprint (AT&T Worldnet DSL Service, which resells Covad connections; and their prices are controlled by the regional ILECs serving Covad). Nor should it directly impact the AT&T Tier 1 backbone (AT&T Worldnet Services, or ATTW), which provides transit to Comcast in Florida.
Do remember, before AT&T bought Bellsouth, SBC bought AT&T. The only thing SBC changed was the name of the company; management is still the same as it was under SBC. | |
|
|  dadkinsCan you do Blu?
MVM
join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA
1 recommendation |
to flycuban
said by flycuban:What tickles me to death is that Comcast uses at&t as there main backbone internet provider.... Ok... Tracing route to ge-2-4-ur01.union.nj.panjde.comcast.net [68.86.220.145]
over a maximum of 30 hops:
1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms 192.168.0.1
2 * * * Request timed out.
3 8 ms 9 ms * ge-2-22-ur02.pinole.ca.sfba.comcast.net [68.87.1
96.233]
4 8 ms 6 ms * te-8-1-ur03.pinole.ca.sfba.comcast.net [68.87.19
2.101]
5 8 ms * 7 ms te-8-1-ur01.pinole.ca.sfba.comcast.net [68.87.19
2.97]
6 8 ms 9 ms 9 ms te-0-5-0-4-ar01.sfsutro.ca.sfba.comcast.net [68.
86.72.86]
7 10 ms 12 ms 11 ms te-4-1-cr01.sanjose.ca.cbone.comcast.net [68.86.
72.85]
8 22 ms 21 ms 21 ms te-1-1-cr01.losangeles.ca.cbone.comcast.net [68.
86.68.74]
9 39 ms 38 ms 37 ms te-1-1-cr01.santateresa.tx.cbone.comcast.net [68
.86.68.82]
10 47 ms 47 ms 47 ms te-9-3-cr01.stratford.tx.cbone.comcast.net [68.8
6.68.90]
11 57 ms 57 ms 57 ms te-1-1-cr01.dallas.tx.cbone.comcast.net [68.86.6
8.94]
12 72 ms 71 ms 71 ms te-1-1-cr01.nashville.tn.cbone.comcast.net [68.8
6.68.98]
13 78 ms 79 ms 76 ms te-1-1-cr01.atlanta.ga.cbone.comcast.net [68.86.
68.102]
14 84 ms 83 ms 86 ms te-1-1-cr01.charlotte.nc.cbone.comcast.net [68.8
6.68.106]
15 90 ms 89 ms 90 ms te-1-1-cr01.richmond.va.cbone.comcast.net [68.86
.68.110]
16 94 ms 93 ms 93 ms te-1-1-cr01.mclean.va.cbone.comcast.net [68.86.6
8.114]
17 100 ms 98 ms 98 ms te-1-1-cr01.philadelphia.pa.cbone.comcast.net [6
8.86.68.2]
18 99 ms 100 ms 101 ms be-40-crs01.401nbroadst.pa.panjde.comcast.net [6
8.86.208.33]
19 101 ms 101 ms 101 ms be-50-crs01.ivyland.pa.panjde.comcast.net [68.86
.208.14]
20 103 ms 102 ms 103 ms po-10-ar01.verona.nj.panjde.comcast.net [68.86.2
08.13]
21 104 ms 105 ms 105 ms po-90-ur02.narlington.nj.panjde.comcast.net [68.
86.209.253]
22 103 ms 103 ms 102 ms po-90-ur01.narlington.nj.panjde.comcast.net [68.
86.158.177]
23 104 ms 105 ms 105 ms 68.86.209.249
24 103 ms 103 ms 104 ms po-90-ur01.jerseycity.nj.panjde.comcast.net [68.
86.209.245]
25 104 ms 105 ms 105 ms po-90-ur02.union.nj.panjde.comcast.net [68.86.20
9.241]
26 103 ms 105 ms 102 ms ge-2-4-ur01.union.nj.panjde.comcast.net [68.86.2
20.145]
Trace complete.
C:\Documents and Settings\David Adkins>tracert www.dslreports.com
Tracing route to dslreports.com [209.123.109.175]
over a maximum of 30 hops:
1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms 192.168.0.1
2 * * * Request timed out.
3 8 ms * 8 ms ge-2-22-ur02.pinole.ca.sfba.comcast.net [68.87.1
96.233]
4 22 ms 17 ms * te-8-1-ur03.pinole.ca.sfba.comcast.net [68.87.19
2.101]
5 7 ms * 8 ms te-8-1-ur01.pinole.ca.sfba.comcast.net [68.87.19
2.97]
6 10 ms 9 ms 9 ms pos-0-7-0-0-ar01.sfsutro.ca.sfba.comcast.net [68
.86.90.154]
7 12 ms 11 ms 12 ms pos-0-9-0-0-cr01.sanjose.ca.ibone.comcast.net [6
8.86.85.130]
8 69 ms 57 ms 57 ms pos-0-9-0-0-cr01.denver.co.ibone.comcast.net [68
.86.85.118]
9 83 ms 84 ms 84 ms pos-0-6-0-0-cr01.chicago.il.ibone.comcast.net [6
8.86.85.50]
10 92 ms 93 ms 93 ms pos-0-3-0-0-cr01.cleveland.oh.ibone.comcast.net
[68.86.85.37]
11 96 ms 97 ms 94 ms pos-0-7-0-0-cr01.pittsburgh.pa.ibone.comcast.net
[68.86.85.46]
12 100 ms 100 ms 100 ms te-0-3-0-5-cr01.mclean.va.ibone.comcast.net [68.
86.84.153]
13 100 ms 100 ms 100 ms te-1-3-pr01.ashburn.va.ibone.comcast.net [68.86.
84.154]
14 102 ms 103 ms 100 ms xe-3-1-0.was11.ip.tiscali.net [213.200.84.117]
15 122 ms 106 ms 107 ms so-1-0-0.nyc22.ip.tiscali.net [213.200.80.125]
16 94 ms 94 ms 97 ms netaccess-gw.ip.tiscali.net [213.200.73.122]
17 95 ms 95 ms 96 ms 0.e1-4.tbr2.mmu.nac.net [209.123.10.77]
18 96 ms 98 ms 95 ms 0.e-1-3.tbr1.mmu.nac.net [209.123.10.25]
19 96 ms 95 ms 96 ms 0.e-1-1.tbr1.oct.nac.net [209.123.10.17]
20 94 ms 95 ms 95 ms 0.ge-1-2-0.gbr1.oct.nac.net [209.123.10.58]
21 166 ms 95 ms * www.dslreports.com [209.123.109.175]
22 868 ms * 97 ms www.dslreports.com [209.123.109.175]
Trace complete.
Me to N.J. then me to DSLReports. To N.J - all Comcast I see Comcast all the way from here(S.F. Bay Area, California) to Ashburn, Virginia, then Tiscali to NAC.net for DSLReports Yes, on occasion Comcast does peer with AT&T for some things, but Comcast does have Nation Wide backbone itself. Look for cbone and ibone. | |
| | | | |
Re: Just the begingingNOT FROM MIAMI - Almost all of our traffic is on at&t bro.
Tracing route to msnbc.com [207.46.245.61]
over a maximum of 30 hops:
1 4 ms 16 ms 7 ms 192.168.1.1
2 * * * Request timed out.
3 103 ms 7 ms * ge-1-2-ur01.perrine.fl.pompano.comcast.net [68.8
5.229.57]
4 11 ms 12 ms 9 ms te-9-2-ar01.miamimetro.fl.pompano.comcast.net [6
8.86.165.37]
5 10 ms * 10 ms po-1-ar02.pompanobeach.fl.pompano.comcast.net [6
8.86.164.13]
6 19 ms 24 ms 20 ms 12.116.114.13
7 100 ms 100 ms 100 ms tbr1.ormfl.ip.att.net [12.122.106.6]
8 107 ms 108 ms 107 ms cr1.ormfl.ip.att.net [12.122.21.1]
9 101 ms 99 ms 105 ms cr2.attga.ip.att.net [12.122.31.29]
10 101 ms 101 ms 100 ms tbr1.attga.ip.att.net [12.122.17.14]
11 100 ms 100 ms 100 ms tbr2.dtrmi.ip.att.net [12.122.10.197]
12 100 ms 100 ms 100 ms tbr2.cgcil.ip.att.net [12.122.10.134]
13 99 ms 98 ms 101 ms cr1.cgcil.ip.att.net [12.122.17.201]
14 106 ms 100 ms 100 ms cr1.st6wa.ip.att.net [12.122.31.162]
15 104 ms 99 ms 100 ms tbr1.st6wa.ip.att.net [12.122.23.130]
16 100 ms 100 ms 100 ms 12.127.6.33
17 91 ms 92 ms 91 ms 12.124.173.42
18 92 ms 97 ms 91 ms ge-5-3-0-56.tuk-64cb-1a.ntwk.msn.net [207.46.44.
1]
19 102 ms 91 ms 91 ms ten2-1.tuk-76c-1b.ntwk.msn.net [207.46.36.201]
-------------------------------------------------
Tracing route to www.yahoo-ht3.akadns.net [209.191.93.52]
over a maximum of 30 hops:
1 1 ms 1 ms 1 ms 192.168.1.1
2 * * * Request timed out.
3 9 ms 9 ms * ge-1-2-ur01.perrine.fl.pompano.comcast.net [68.8
5.229.57]
4 9 ms 10 ms * te-9-2-ar01.miamimetro.fl.pompano.comcast.net [6
8.86.165.37]
5 11 ms * * po-1-ar02.pompanobeach.fl.pompano.comcast.net [6
8.86.164.13]
6 18 ms 18 ms 19 ms 12.116.114.13
7 52 ms 51 ms 50 ms tbr1.ormfl.ip.att.net [12.122.106.6]
8 50 ms 51 ms 51 ms cr1.ormfl.ip.att.net [12.122.21.17]
9 52 ms 51 ms 50 ms cr1.hs1tx.ip.att.net [12.122.31.241]
10 50 ms 50 ms 50 ms cr2.dlstx.ip.att.net [12.122.5.233]
11 52 ms 50 ms 51 ms tbr2.dlstx.ip.att.net [12.122.18.206]
12 51 ms 49 ms 50 ms gar8.dlstx.ip.att.net [12.122.100.81]
13 53 ms 52 ms 52 ms 12.86.20.18
14 107 ms 54 ms 54 ms ge-0-1-0-p110.msr2.mud.yahoo.com [216.115.104.10
1]
15 54 ms 52 ms 51 ms te-8-1.bas-c2.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.193.7]
16 57 ms 53 ms 52 ms f1.www.vip.mud.yahoo.com [209.191.93.52]
-------------------------------------------------
Microsoft Windows XP [Version 5.1.2600]
(C) Copyright 1985-2001 Microsoft Corp.
C:\Documents and Settings\Administrator>tracert www.cnn.com
Tracing route to www.cnn.com [64.236.16.20]
over a maximum of 30 hops:
1 20 ms 2 ms 5 ms 192.168.1.1
2 * * * Request timed out.
3 60 ms 199 ms 199 ms ge-1-2-ur01.perrine.fl.pompano.comcast.net [68.8
5.229.57]
4 9 ms 9 ms * te-9-2-ar01.miamimetro.fl.pompano.comcast.net [6
8.86.165.37]
5 10 ms * 11 ms po-1-ar02.pompanobeach.fl.pompano.comcast.net [6
8.86.164.13]
6 18 ms 18 ms 19 ms 12.116.114.13
7 28 ms 27 ms 28 ms tbr1.ormfl.ip.att.net [12.122.106.6]
8 28 ms 28 ms 26 ms cr1.ormfl.ip.att.net [12.122.21.9]
9 27 ms 28 ms 28 ms cr2.attga.ip.att.net [12.122.31.29]
10 28 ms 28 ms 28 ms tbr1.attga.ip.att.net [12.122.17.6]
11 27 ms 26 ms 26 ms ggr3.attga.ip.att.net [12.122.96.9]
12 27 ms 26 ms 25 ms br1-a340s7.wswdc.ip.att.net [192.205.34.162]
13 26 ms 26 ms 26 ms bb1-atm-P4-0.atdn.net [66.185.147.208] | |
| | | | dadkinsCan you do Blu?
MVM
join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA
1 edit |
Re: Just the begingingYou stated that "Comcast uses at&t as there main backbone internet provider..." I showed you that in most cases, they do not - at least from here in California. For that Yahoo address you used: 209.191.93.52... Tracing route to f1.www.vip.mud.yahoo.com [209.191.93.52]
over a maximum of 30 hops:
1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms 192.168.0.1
2 * * * Request timed out.
3 14 ms 7 ms * ge-2-22-ur02.pinole.ca.sfba.comcast.net [68.87.
96.233]
4 8 ms * 8 ms te-8-1-ur03.pinole.ca.sfba.comcast.net [68.87.1
2.101]
5 7 ms 6 ms 16 ms te-8-1-ur01.pinole.ca.sfba.comcast.net [68.87.1
2.97]
6 10 ms 8 ms 10 ms te-0-7-0-1-ar01.sfsutro.ca.sfba.comcast.net [68
86.90.158]
7 12 ms 11 ms 10 ms COMCAST-IP.edge1.SanJose1.Level3.net [4.71.118.
4]
8 11 ms 9 ms 9 ms xe-8-3-0.edge1.SanJose1.Level3.net [4.71.118.13
9 12 ms 10 ms 12 ms ae-43-99.car3.SanJose1.Level3.net [4.68.18.197]
10 11 ms 12 ms 11 ms 4.71.112.14
11 58 ms 56 ms 55 ms so-0-0-0.pat2.dcp.yahoo.com [216.115.101.150]
12 57 ms 57 ms 65 ms ge-1-1-0-p131.msr2.mud.yahoo.com [216.115.104.9
]
13 56 ms 59 ms 58 ms te-8-1.bas-c2.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.193.7]
14 56 ms 57 ms 57 ms f1.www.vip.mud.yahoo.com [209.191.93.52]
Trace complete.
No AT&T here - I see Level3. Comcast will peer with whomever is closest if needed. Not just AT&T. For most national backbone tasks, Comcast will use their own - for many of us! YMMV | |
| | | | |  en102Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA
1 recommendation |
en102
Member
2008-Feb-28 1:46 pm
Re: Just the begingingSimilarly, DSL-Extreme uses multiple, including Level3 | |
| | | | | | |
to dadkins
I guess each "Region" has there own peering sites, because here in Florida most if not all the traffic goes thru at&t.. Hardly none of the traffic goes on the Comcast national backbone... | |
| | | | | | dadkinsCan you do Blu?
MVM
join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA |
Re: Just the begingingI'm not doubting that.
Nearly all of Comcast traffic here used to go through AT&T a couple years ago.
Not anymore!
For some routes, sure! AT&T, Gblx, Level3...
For *most* things, here in my part of the State, it stays on Comcast across the country. | |
| | | | | | NormanSI gave her time to steal my mind away
MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA TP-Link TD-8616
Asus RT-AC66U B1
Netgear FR114P
|
to flycuban
said by flycuban:I guess each "Region" has there own peering sites, because here in Florida most if not all the traffic goes thru at&t.. Hardly none of the traffic goes on the Comcast national backbone... Indeed. However, isn't Florida one of the regions Comcast picked up from Road Runner? Perhaps Comcast hasn't, yet, built out their backbone in the Southeastern U.S.? 02/29/08 02:36:56 Slow traceroute vcodsk0039
Trace v*******39 (67.171.***.***) ...
192.168.102.1 RTT: 1ms TTL:170 (chihiro.aosake.net ok)
192.168.0.1 RTT: 2ms TTL:170 (suzuka.aosake.net ok)
68.127.139.254 RTT: 11ms TTL:170 (adsl-68-127-139-254.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net ok)
76.246.22.2 RTT: 11ms TTL:170 (No rDNS)
151.164.93.239 RTT: 11ms TTL:170 (No rDNS)
151.164.190.14 RTT: 12ms TTL:170 (bb2-p3-0.sgnwmi.ameritech.net ok)
64.215.195.241 RTT: 12ms TTL:170 (No rDNS)
67.17.107.33 RTT: 13ms TTL:170 (ge2-2-10G.ar1.SNV2.gblx.net ok)
68.86.85.78 RTT: 14ms TTL:170 (pos-0-7-0-0-cr01.sanjose.ca.ibone.comcast.net ok)
68.86.85.197 RTT: 18ms TTL:170 (pos-0-6-0-0-cr01.sacramento.ca.ibone.comcast.net ok)
68.86.85.206 RTT: 33ms TTL:170 (No rDNS)
68.86.90.233 RTT: 33ms TTL:170 (te-0-4-0-4-cr01.seattle.wa.ibone.comcast.net ok)
68.86.90.234 RTT: 34ms TTL:170 (te-5-1-ar01.troutdale.or.bverton.comcast.net ok)
68.87.216.125 RTT: 39ms TTL:170 (te-9-3-ur02.eugene.or.bverton.comcast.net ok)
68.87.216.65 RTT: 38ms TTL:170 (te-9-1-ur01.eugene.or.bverton.comcast.net ok)
68.87.216.113 RTT: 39ms TTL:170 (te-9-1-ur01.corvallis.or.bverton.comcast.net ok)
* * * failed
67.171.***.*** RTT: 48ms TTL: 47 (v*******39.hsd1.or.comcast.net ok)
One Global Crossing (Tier 1 backbone provider) hop between ATTIS (my provider's backbone) and Comcast's 'ibone' network. 02/29/08 02:32:09 Slow traceroute 68.87.196.233
Trace 68.87.196.233 ...
192.168.102.1 RTT: 1ms TTL:170 (chihiro.aosake.net ok)
192.168.0.1 RTT: 2ms TTL:170 (suzuka.aosake.net ok)
68.127.139.254 RTT: 10ms TTL:170 (adsl-68-127-139-254.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net ok)
64.164.107.1 RTT: 10ms TTL:170 (No rDNS)
151.164.93.229 RTT: 10ms TTL:170 (No rDNS)
69.220.8.41 RTT: 11ms TTL:170 (No rDNS)
151.164.251.246 RTT: 12ms TTL:170 (No rDNS)
4.68.18.206 RTT: 13ms TTL:170 (ae-4-99.edge1.SanJose1.Level3.net ok)
68.86.90.157 RTT: 12ms TTL:170 (te-0-4-0-1-cr01.sanjose.ca.ibone.comcast.net ok)
68.87.192.93 RTT: 14ms TTL:170 (te-0-2-0-1-ar01.sfsutro.ca.sfba.comcast.net ok)
68.87.192.94 RTT: 15ms TTL:170 (te-9-1-ur01.pinole.ca.sfba.comcast.net ok)
68.87.192.98 RTT: 15ms TTL:170 (te-9-1-ur03.pinole.ca.sfba.comcast.net ok)
68.87.196.233 RTT: 18ms TTL:242 (ge-2-22-ur02.pinole.ca.sfba.comcast.net ok)
One Level 3 (Tier 1 backbone provider) hop between ATTIS (my provider's backbone) and Comcast's 'ibone' network. All connections to West Coast destinations are made right here in San José, California. 02/29/08 02:44:56 Slow traceroute 69.249.89.126
Trace 69.249.89.126 ...
192.168.102.1 RTT: 1ms TTL:170 (chihiro.aosake.net ok)
192.168.0.1 RTT: 2ms TTL:170 (suzuka.aosake.net ok)
68.127.139.254 RTT: 11ms TTL:170 (adsl-68-127-139-254.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net ok)
76.246.22.129 RTT: 10ms TTL:170 (No rDNS)
151.164.93.239 RTT: 11ms TTL:170 (No rDNS)
151.164.94.47 RTT: 11ms TTL:170 (ex2-p12-0.eqsjca.sbcglobal.net ok)
151.164.251.246 RTT: 12ms TTL:170 (No rDNS)
4.68.18.254 RTT: 19ms TTL:170 (vlan99.csw4.SanJose1.Level3.net ok)
4.69.134.221 RTT: 13ms TTL:170 (ae-92-92.ebr2.SanJose1.Level3.net ok)
4.69.132.58 RTT: 62ms TTL:170 (ae-3.ebr1.Denver1.Level3.net ok)
4.69.132.38 RTT: 57ms TTL:170 (ae-1-100.ebr2.Denver1.Level3.net ok)
4.69.132.62 RTT: 70ms TTL:170 (ae-3.ebr3.Chicago1.Level3.net ok)
4.69.134.61 RTT: 65ms TTL:170 (ae-78.ebr2.Chicago1.Level3.net ok)
4.68.101.115 RTT: 62ms TTL:170 (ae-2-54.edge1.Chicago2.Level3.net ok)
68.86.85.102 RTT: 63ms TTL:170 (pos-0-15-0-0-cr01.chicago.il.ibone.comcast.net ok)
68.86.90.29 RTT: 92ms TTL:170 (pos-0-5-0-0-cr01.newyork.ny.ibone.comcast.net ok)
68.86.209.202 RTT: 95ms TTL:170 (te-0-1-0-2-crs01.plainfield.nj.panjde.comcast.net ok)
68.86.209.201 RTT: 90ms TTL:170 (te-9-1-ur02.plainfield.nj.panjde.comcast.net ok)
68.86.209.197 RTT: 90ms TTL:170 (te-9-1-ur01.plainfield.nj.panjde.comcast.net ok)
68.86.209.193 RTT: 91ms TTL:170 (te-9-1-ur02.summit.nj.panjde.comcast.net ok)
68.86.219.229 RTT: 92ms TTL:170 (ge-5-1-ur01.summit.nj.panjde.comcast.net ok)
* * * failed
* * * failed
Seven Level 3 (Tier 1 backbone) hops between ATTIS in San José, California and the Comcast 'ibone' network in Chicago, Illinois. I would guess that Comcast just has to put in their 'ibone' in the Southeast, based on trace routes to '.hsd1.ga.comcast.net' and '.hsd1.fl.comcast.net' from the West Coast. | |
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to dadkins
i've got AT&T and i trace routed 209.191.93.52 and i got:
1 1 ms 1 ms 1 ms 192.168.1.1
2 264 ms 274 ms 202 ms ppp-70-244-249-254.dsl.snantx.swbell.net [70.244.249.254]
3 151 ms 72 ms 127 ms dist2-vlan60.snantx.sbcglobal.net [151.164.17.163]
4 407 ms 155 ms 98 ms bb1-g9-3-0.snantx.sbcglobal.net [151.164.17.246]
5 385 ms 564 ms * 151.164.95.188
6 427 ms 496 ms 397 ms asn10310-11-yahoo.eqdltx.sbcglobal.net [151.164.250.202]
7 499 ms 334 ms 297 ms ge-0-1-0-p110.msr2.mud.yahoo.com [216.115.104.101]
8 147 ms 435 ms 252 ms te-9-1.bas-c1.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.193.9]
9 301 ms 349 ms 432 ms f1.www.vip.mud.yahoo.com [209.191.93.52]
Trace complete.
i tried 68.86.220.145 and it switches from sbc servers to level3 servers and then to the comcast servers. i take it as at&t peers with others as well. | |
| | | | | | NormanSI gave her time to steal my mind away
MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA TP-Link TD-8616
Asus RT-AC66U B1
Netgear FR114P
1 edit |
Re: Just the begingingMark the difference between AT&T Internet Services (ATTIS), which provides your network connections to other transit services, and AT&T Worldnet Services (ATTW), which is the Tier 1 backbone transit provider offering services comparable to Level 3, Qwest, and Verizon (Business); all of which are also Tier 1 networks.
ATTIS will only connect with ATTW when routing tables call for it.
You, as an at&t Yahoo! HSI customer, will be on the ATTIS network until it connects with a destination transit provider, as announced in BGP by the destination.
P.S. I forgot to mention that ATTIS will connect directly to Google, Microsoft, and Yahoo! networks, without going through any other transit. At least for all trace routes I have ever run to them. | |
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1 edit |
to dadkins
Does comcast really own their own lines from SF to NJ??
I have no idea. But I would assume the fiber along the way is owned by someone else. | |
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to flycuban
said by flycuban:.. This was supposed to lower prices? .... you know who thought the merger would lower prices? NOBODY!they figured if they said it people would believe it. turns out the regulators (or deregulators) didn't care whether it would raise prices or not. | |
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gaforces (banned)United We Stand, Divided We Fall
join:2002-04-07
Santa Cruz, CA |
gaforces (banned)
Member
2008-Feb-28 10:12 am
Higher pricesMy ISP sent out an email, stating that business were gaining a price increase, residential users are not.
Im already paying more than ATT charges for my tier by $15.00. I doubt if I could handle a price increase atm. | |
| |  graysonf
MVM
join:1999-07-16
Fort Lauderdale, FL |
Re: Higher pricessaid by gaforces:Im already paying more than ATT charges for my tier by $15.00. I doubt if I could handle a price increase atm. It's obvious to me that guys like you are who this type of thing is aimed at. If you couldn't handle an increase, would you disconnect the service and not pay anybody anything, or take it from ATT at a price lower than you pay now? | |
| | |  creativebiasPoor Impulse Control
Premium Member
join:2000-08-13
Middletown, CT |
Re: Higher pricessaid by graysonf:said by gaforces:Im already paying more than ATT charges for my tier by $15.00. I doubt if I could handle a price increase atm. It's obvious to me that guys like you are who this type of thing is aimed at. If you couldn't handle an increase, would you disconnect the service and not pay anybody anything, or take it from ATT at a price lower than you pay now? I am sure that is what ATT is counting on | |
| | | | graysonf
MVM
join:1999-07-16
Fort Lauderdale, FL |
Re: Higher pricesAnd what are they going to do after they have driven all the indies out of business? | |
| | | | | openbox9
Premium Member
join:2004-01-26
71144 |
openbox9
Premium Member
2008-Feb-28 11:26 am
Re: Higher pricesCompete against cablecos. | |
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Re: Higher pricesAnd buy boats. | |
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| | gaforces (banned)United We Stand, Divided We Fall
join:2002-04-07
Santa Cruz, CA |
to graysonf
Id probably disconnect my ATT landline and go Sprint CDMA till they get Wimax. | |
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Of course...Of course they need to raise rates, all that handing over your personal information to the NSA costs money. With all the tax breaks, you think the government is handing over your tax money fast enough? | |
|  wruckman Ruckman.net
join:2007-10-25
Northwood, OH |
Business MongersSounds like a silent move to put others out of business. | |
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nanananana ynon
Anon
2008-Feb-28 10:38 am
when was the last increase?I'd like to know when was the last increase on wholesale loop charges. Copper has quadrupled in price over the last 5 years. Don't see anyone mentioning that. | |
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Re: when was the last increase?Yeah because they should keep sticking with copper and not moving to fiber anytime soon. | |
| | | openbox9
Premium Member
join:2004-01-26
71144 |
openbox9
Premium Member
2008-Feb-28 11:28 am
Re: when was the last increase?Moving to fiber only serves to kill of the indies quicker. | |
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nnaananna ynon
Anon
2008-Feb-28 11:31 am
Re: when was the last increase?said by openbox9:Moving to fiber only serves to kill of the indies quicker. That is correct. The only thing the Telco offers, and is required to offer, is unbundled copper. They move to all fiber and the indies are really dead. | |
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1 edit |
to openbox9
said by openbox9:Moving to fiber only serves to kill of the indies quicker. Yep, Because thanks to the FCC, the telcos don't even HAVE to provide fiber access to independents. Another UNREGULATED monopoly! And PLEEAZE, don't trot out that overused excuse that the indys could put up their own fiber if they wanted to. The fact is this: The poles are FILLED! Most telcos that are putting in fiber are taking down their older copper lines at the same time and replacing them with smaller guage wire. | |
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Re: when was the last increase?Verizon isn't yet.
Matter of fact they sometimes leave the copper drops , and they definitely will if you ask them to. | |
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to qworster
said by qworster:said by openbox9:Moving to fiber only serves to kill of the indies quicker. Yep, Because thanks to the FCC, the telcos don't even HAVE to provide fiber access to independents. Another UNREGULATED monopoly! And PLEEAZE, don't trot out that overused excuse that the indys could put up their own fiber if they wanted to. The fact is this: The poles are FILLED! Most telcos that are putting in fiber are taking down their older copper lines at the same time and replacing them with smaller guage wire. Why exactly should VZ allow ISP's to resell their fiber? VZ is investing $100 billion to implement FIOS. And, if you must know, if the DSLAM is inside the CO, AT&T, et al doesn't have to "rent" DSL lines period. The 1996 Telecom Act was meant for competition to USE RBOCs lines until they built their own. They were given time to do so then the FCC said enough of the UNE-P, UNE, etc. crap since nobody, including CLEC phone cos., were building their own networks. The 1996 Telecom ACT just weakened the RBOCs. It was crap law in the first place. I don't think all these mergers should have happened, especially since Bellsouth was stronger financially than AT&T, but all the line-sharing should be profitable for the RBOCs. Failure to build their own networks is killing off indie ISPs and killed off most indie telcos. Covad couldn't make it on lines being sold below cost by the RBOCs and filed bankruptcy. So, exactly who are people kidding about Indie ISPs ability to make it in a world where they have to pay the RBOCs what the DSL lines are worth? GM has gotten billions and billions of tax breaks and doesn't have to let Toyota build cars on their lines so why should the RBOCs? Cable Cos. that offer telephone and HSI built out their networks and don't have to lease anything. | |
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••••••• | | | | | openbox9
Premium Member
join:2004-01-26
71144 |
to qworster
said by qworster:And PLEEAZE, don't trot out that overused excuse that the indys could put up their own fiber if they wanted to. Ok, how about I trot out the "it's a cost of doing business and if the indies can't afford to play and continue providing a value-added service, then maybe they shouldn't be playing" valid logic. Or better yet, maybe the indies should do what they "should" be doing and innovate and drive new technology instead of leaching off of their competitors' infrastructures. | |
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|  dru
join:2000-09-14
Ogden, UT |
to nanananana ynon
This is actually the first increase in loop charges to ISPs, and my company has been doing this for 10 years.
There have been a few "promotions" that expired, but this is the first accross the board increase and keep in mind while many things are going up due to inflation and the economy, this increase is 46%, WAY beyond any justification regarding energy, credit, etc.
As for copper, 90% or more of DSL uses the stuff that was hung or buried decades ago. And because this increase pertains to "line share" the copper loops are irrelevant since they share the local telephone service.
Building new homes? That uses fiber to a nearby node, most greenfield deployments are "Uverse ready". Of course, you don't see a lot of construction. As far as copper pair depletion, do you really think they are exhausting pairs used for landlines these days?
One interesting thing about this is the excuse is the "higher cost and use of bandwidth". The ISPs affected don't use their bandwidth at all - they provide their own, and unless ISPs are stupid in their purchasing decisions, backbone connections at the gigabit level are flat or dropping.
Second interesting fact is the fastest tier offered to independents is NOT increasing - the 6Mx768k speed, generally purchased by businesses and power users. | |
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2 edits |
to nanananana ynon
said by nanananana ynon :
I'd like to know when was the last increase on wholesale loop charges. Copper has quadrupled in price over the last 5 years. Don't see anyone mentioning that.
Cmon! Their copper is DECADES old! THAT excuse holds about a mm of water! This is 100% GREED on AT&T's part! They can SQUEEZE, so they DO! Besides, I already PAY AT&T for that line every month! It's called TELEPHONE SERVICE! Thanks to the FCC, the 'last mile' wiring is an UNREGULATED monopoly! | |
| | | en102Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA |
en102
Member
2008-Feb-28 4:17 pm
Re: when was the last increase?Its corp America... lets get you for every cent that we can... and then find new ways to make more money by attempting to squeeze blood from a stone. The phone lines and CO's have been paid for by tax payers for a long time. Time Warner must be noticing this, and is offering me a decent deal: Internet Only: 6Mbps/512kbps = $39.95, 10Mbps/1Mbps = $49.95 and of course, basic 1.5Mbps = $29.95 Phone/HSI bundled 6Mbps = $69.95. I may be jumping off DSL-Extreme soon  as I'll be forced to $34.95 for 3Mbps/512kbps from $24.95/month unless I sign a year contract. | |
| | | NormanSI gave her time to steal my mind away
MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA TP-Link TD-8616
Asus RT-AC66U B1
Netgear FR114P
|
to qworster
said by qworster:Cmon! Their copper is DECADES old! THAT excuse holds about a mm of water! Not around here. They replaced my drop when we had problems on the voice line. More recently, they replaced the F2 from the cross-connect box. I'd say the copper around here is more like mere months old. I'd also say that is probably true for most of the locales where AT&T is rolling out Uverse. | |
|
 UnKnownThe Underground Network
join:2002-09-08
San Pedro, CA |
UnKnown
Member
2008-Feb-28 10:44 am
switch to CogentCogent is cheap as hell, and their a good backbone provider. its a win/win. | |
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•••• | | |
ISP in NC
Anon
2008-Feb-28 11:00 am
DSL RatesRight now as an ISP we pay higher wholesale prices than the retail offers off of the ATT site. In 1996 the Telecom ACT was supposed to level the communications field. What we have seen over the past 10 years is high paid lobbyist knocking down the doors to Congress. Deregulation. The 1996 Telecom Act is worthless now. A waste of the Taxpayers money. In NC there were over 150 phone companies offering service to consumers. 10 years later there are 35. This means less choices, higher prices, poor customer service. The Telcos, AT&T, Comcast, Verizon have duped Congress into allowing the re-unification of the MONOPOLIES. AT&T advertise "More Bar's in More places." Since the merger, my service is awful. My new saying is "More Dropped calls in More Places." | |
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factchecker
Anon
2008-Feb-28 12:39 pm
Re: DSL Ratessaid by ISP in NC :
AT&T advertise "More Bar's in More places." Since the merger, my service is awful. My new saying is "More Dropped calls in More Places." It has ALWAYS been more dropped calls in more place in this area. I find myself switching from my ATT line to my Sprint line all the time either because the call has been dropped or the call quality on the ATT phone sucks. | |
|
axus
join:2001-06-18
Washington, DC |
axus
Member
2008-Feb-28 12:02 pm
hey AT&TI hope you're saving those extra monopoly rents you're getting, the privacy lawsuit settlements are going to be pretty big. | |
|  morboComplete Your Transaction
join:2002-01-22
00000 |
morbo
Member
2008-Feb-28 12:03 pm
merger approval...then screw you americaas if AT&T couldn't be a more deplorable company... everyone can see where this is heading. time for RE-REGULATION of ma bell. contact your senators and representatives. » www.senate.gov/» www.house.gov/ | |
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1 edit |
Thank you FCC!Let's see...they raise their retail prices by $5.00-around 25%.
Then they raise wholesale prices by almost TWICE this amount!
Do you think they want to 'squeeze' their DSL competition?
Thank you, FCC, for 'deregulating' DSL. I guess this almost 50% rate hike is GOOD for consumers-RIGHT??!!
Scumbags! | |
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•••••• |  GuspazGuspaz
MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC |
Guspaz
MVM
2008-Feb-28 12:34 pm
This is what deregulation gets youIn Canada, the CRTC forces incumbents to share their lines, and fixes the wholesale costs that they are allowed to charge. The result? The wholesalers can sell service cheaper than the incumbent, the incumbent makes money off customers they would have lost anyhow, and everybody wins. | |
| | en102Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA |
en102
Member
2008-Feb-28 1:57 pm
Re: This is what deregulation gets youI agree... my family in the 'boonies' of northern Ontario can get dry loop Cable HSI of 5Mbps for $37/month. I'm paying $34/month with forced POTS line for DSL. | |
|
 dvd536as Mr. Pink as they come
Premium Member
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ |
dvd536
Premium Member
2008-Feb-28 10:08 pm
I wouldn'tbe a bit surprised that ISPs that don't do bizzy with T would raise their prices and quote the A T & T increase as reason. | |
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The problem for many ISPs is that they've given customers 12 months assurances of price, and they won't be able to pass this price hike along until those contracts are up.
as I'll be forced to $34.95 for 3Mbps/512kbps from $24.95/month unless I sign a year contract.
