AT&T To Vuze: We Don't Throttle BitTorrentNor do we use false reset messages like Comcast... 09:28AM Monday Apr 28 2008 by Karltags: Fileswapping · business · networking · AT&T DSL ServiceLast week P2P client developers Azureus/Vuze released data they collected from a new Azureus plugin. That plugin detects the total number of network interruptions from false RST TCP packets, with some highly contested results. As we've covered extensively, Comcast uses false RST TCP packets to throttle upstream P2P traffic. The Azureus data ranked ISPs by the percentage of network interruptions caused by these packets, though the data doesn't discern between routine or intentional disruptions. While it was no surprise to see Comcast at the top of the list (23.72% network interruption rate), it was interesting to see BellSouth on the list (15.88% network interruption rate). Vuze/Azureus, who admitted the limitations of their data, e-mailed AT&T with their findings in a quest to find out more. From a letter sent from Vuze CEO Gilles BianRosa to AT&T CEO Randall Stephenson: …while we appreciate the methodological limitations of our data, and therefore have drawn no firm conclusions from it, we believe the results show a significant enough difference in the level of resets from one network operator to another, to warrant asking certain network operators to describe their network management practices. In reviewing our data we have identified that the rate of reset activity in the ASN pertaining to your company appears to be higher than many others. AT&T's response is rather definitive: In response to your specific question about AT&T's network management practices, AT&T does not use "false reset messages" to manage its network. We agree with Vuze that the use of the Vuze Plug-In to measure network traffic has numerous limitations and deficiencies, and does not demonstrate whether any particular network providers or their customers are using TCP Reset messages for network management purposes. Given that Vuze itself has recognized these problems with the measurements generated by its Plug-In, we believe that Vuze should not have published these misleading measurements, nor filed them with the FCC. Moreover, as Vuze and others have acknowledged, TCP resets are generated for many reasons wholly unrelated to the network management practices of broadband network providers, which explains why resets may appear on networks of companies such as AT&T who do not use TCP resets for network management. AT&T vice president of Internet and network systems research Charles Kalmanek, in a letter to Vuze, claims that BellSouth's higher than normal average disconnect rate can be attributed to attacks, outages, reconfigurations or other general trends in Internet usage.
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Camelot One
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-21
Austin, TX
clubs: | We aren't doing it on purpose Its just that our network sucks, which causes the same data issues Comcast is generating on purpose.  | |
|  | nasadude
join:2001-10-05
Rockville, MD | Re: We aren't doing it on purpose it's much more likely they are lying. | |
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Camelot One
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-21
Austin, TX
clubs:
 ·VoicePulse
| Re: We aren't doing it on purpose said by nasadude  :it's much more likely they are lying. I agree, but I think its hilarious that they are claiming incompetence rather than owning up to it.
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Intel Quad Core QX6700 @3500Mhz/Asus P5N32-E SLI/4x 1024Mb Corsair/Seagate 750.10/PNY 7800GTs SLI/Silverstone 850W/Custom water cooler | |
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Jerm
join:2000-04-10
Richland, WA
 ·Charter Pipeline
| Re: We aren't doing it on purpose Here's an interesting tidbit to think about: When Comcast sends a forged RST packet, the computer on the other end of the line ALSO gets a forged packet (ie BellSouth) and it counts against them.
One bad apple spoils the bunch, and likewise Comcast sends RST packets to everyone skewing their results.
Note how all the ISPs on the bottom of the list are European ISPs. Since these statistics are gathered from actual BT traffic, not a controlled sample, this makes sense. Why? Well you can figure that the average American BT user is probably downloading the same files as another American BT user - heck Verizon shows up on the list with 11% of their traffic having resets - but those are all probably comming from being connected to Comcast BT users!
They guy in Paris using Orange to download a French screener never sees a Comcast IP and thus his RST statistics are much lower... | |
| | | | NormanS
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
 ·Pacific Bell - SBC
| said by Camelot One :said by nasadude :it's much more likely they are lying. I agree, but I think its hilarious that they are claiming incompetence rather than owning up to it. But why would only the Bellsouth transit network be involved, and not the AT&T Internet Services (formerly SBC Internet Service) transit network?
Like the other AT&T West customers, I am not seeing evidence of throttling. Trying to locate the Comcast Sandvine post which details how to test for forged RST packets; but, it just doesn't "feel" like there is any throttling on my end.
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Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum | |
| 
Mizzat
This space for rent
Premium
join:2003-05-03
Atlanta, GA
·AT&T Southeast
| Funny They say they know their data may be incorrect and not definitive, but are pursuing it anyway. I've had no problems what-so-ever using BT, and it can use my entire 6 meg pipe at times, so it doesn't appear to be throttled to me.
Could it be the always congested Level 3 network pairing that they use?
Could it be that higher number of users = higher number of resets?
I really just don't see it and I'd think you'd see more complaints in the AT&T Southeast forum if they did it a lot.
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-M | |
| | Skippy25
join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO
| Re: Funny Whether you have 100 or 1000000000, 15.88% is still 15.88%.
They were clear in saying they don't know if it is invalid data or not. However, the large amount over other networks suggest something is going on. Which they clearly stated as well. There could be other things involved and time will only tell. | |
| | | jester121
join:2003-08-09
Lake Zurich, IL | Re: Funny "Something going on" could easily include a screwup by Azureus as well. Remember the supposed research from University of Colorado a month ago? Oooops. | |
| 
Iknowenuff
join:2001-06-28
Riverside, CA
| Only Bell South Its interesting that its only in bell south territory. if it were being done on purpose, why didnt all there areas make it on the list. maybe it is just a crappy network and not done on purpose. AT&T has a only had about a year since the takeover to clean up the bell south territory. lets give em a minute and see what happens. I have had pacific bell/SBC/AT&T DSL for over 9 years in southern cali and no BT problems whatsoever. and ive used several different bt clients. | |
| | bogey780
join:2004-03-19
Covington, LA
| Re: Only Bell South 'AT&T has a only had about a year since the takeover to clean up the bell south territory.'
Clean up? Seriously. Clean us up?
Simple answer here. Too many connections across equipment (modems, for one) that can't handle hundreds of connections opening and closing. That's a differentiator between at&t and bellsouth. | |
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MattE
Obama '08
Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
·North State Commun..
 ·Corporate Colocation
| Re: Only Bell South said by bogey780 :'AT&T has a only had about a year since the takeover to clean up the bell south territory.' Clean up? Seriously. Clean us up? Simple answer here. Too many connections across equipment (modems, for one) that can't handle hundreds of connections opening and closing. That's a differentiator between at&t and bellsouth. I have to agree with this. Bellsouth may have been a bunch of "good ol boys" but they had a much better network than SBC/AT&T with much loftier goals than U-Verse. | |
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Iknowenuff
join:2001-06-28
Riverside, CA | yet bell south is the only AT&T territory that high on the list. not saying AT&T has it perfect everywhere else but... | |
| | | | bogey780
join:2004-03-19
Covington, LA
edit:
April 29th, @10:38AM
| Re: Only Bell South SBC is not Bellsouth. Different equipment and probisioning across the entire network. | |
| | emptywig
Huh? What?
Premium
join:2002-08-05
Pasadena, TX
edit:
April 28th, @11:28AM
| Nothing to See Here Yet another news story which is wholly lacking in any sort of , well, ummm, news.
wig
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Please keep your f---ing religion to yourself. | |
| 
starcaptor
join:2000-08-19
East Northport, NY
·Verizon Online DSL
| Dodge for how much longer? Reading these posts the past few months about ISPs capping or throttling, both north and south of the border, I wonder how it is that my humble Verizon DSL has been able to avoid the crossfire so far?
I agree that its quite hilarious that ATT is using, amongst all things, a crappy network as a red herring to deter from the idea that they may or may not be participating in throttling. Also in general, anyone who replies using quotes from the original retort usually is hiding something | |
| karlmarx
join:2006-09-18
Baghdad,IRAQ
| Gee, a megacorp lying? Who'd a thought such a horrible thing could ever happen! How DARE they use a 3rd party tool to watch the network. If the megacorp says it's not managed, then it's not managed. Why, Comcast came out and admitted then don't manage their network, why should AT&T be held to a higher standard.
It's lies like this that will get them exactly what they DON'T want, which is legislation. Should they try this trick after net neutrality laws are passed, they should find themselves (and all their executives and employees) at the losing end of a bankrupting lawsuit.
You want to work for AT&T? Fine. But if your company is breaking the law, you pay the penalty too. If MORE companies had their employees held liable for breaking the law (criminal AND civil laws), then more companies would act in a responsible manner. I guarantee you the fat cat executive would think twice about breaking the law if he knew he would lose everything.
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The happiest countries are the most secular. The struggle AGAINST corporations is the struggle FOR humanity! | |
| | bogey780
join:2004-03-19
Covington, LA | Re: Gee, a megacorp lying? Great logic.
This man isn't moving ergo he is definitely dead. | |
| | openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Navarre, FL
·Mediacom
| said by karlmarx :Who'd a thought such a horrible thing could ever happen! How DARE they use a 3rd party tool to watch the network. What lies? If the third party tool is indisputable in its accuracy, then I support your claim. Until then, Vuze's "test" is anything but scientific or definitive.said by karlmarx :they should find themselves (and all their executives and employees) at the losing end of a bankrupting lawsuit. Lawsuit? If net neutrality legislation is ever passed, what bankrupting lawsuit might you be referring to? Not that I expect net neutrality legislation to be written into law...let alone to your liking. | |
| | 
Skeedatl
To Provoke and Annoy
Premium
join:2007-12-26
Laguna Hills, CA | RTFA, the tool doesn't work. | |
| Dydion
join:2001-03-07
Baton Rouge, LA
edit:
April 28th, @01:20PM
| Maybe they ain't throttling... but they're doing something. I've noticed since ATT took over that the newsgroup speeds have fluctuated and data tends to come in spurts. Aggravating. | |
| slckusr
join:2003-03-17
Maumee, OH | seems fine for me torrents working fine for me. | |
| | craigseeman2
join:2004-09-16
Evansville, WI | Re: seems fine for me  Torrents are going 550+ KB/s download speed for me aswell, I certainly dont see any slowdowns here. | |
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