AT&T's Changed TOS in FullCriticize away... ( old news - 09:24AM Thursday Oct 11 2007) tags: legal · business · privacy · AT&T DSL ServiceAs AT&T promised us yesterday, they've changed their terms of service and removed language some believe allowed the company to cancel the accounts of users who criticize the company. The old, controversial passage: AT&T may immediately terminate or suspend all or a portion of your Service, any Member ID, electronic mail address, IP address, Universal Resource Locator or domain name used by you, without notice, for conduct that AT&T believes … tends to damage the name or reputation of AT&T, or its parents, affiliates and subsidiaries. And now the revised entry sent to us by AT&T's Brad Mays: 5.1 Suspension/Termination. AT&T respects freedom of expression and believes it is a foundation of our free society to express differing points of view. AT&T will not terminate, disconnect or suspend service because of the views you or we express on public policy matters, political issues or political campaigns. However, AT&T may immediately terminate or suspend all or a portion of your Service, any Member ID, electronic mail address, IP address, Universal Resource Locator or domain name used by you, without notice, for conduct that AT&T believes (a) violates the Acceptable Use Policy; or (b) constitutes a violation of any law, regulation or tariff (including, without limitation, copyright and intellectual property laws) or a violation of these TOS, or any applicable policies or guidelines. Your Service may be suspended or terminated if your payment is past due and such condition continues un-remedied for thirty (30) days. Termination or suspension by AT&T of Service also constitutes termination or suspension (as applicable) of your license to use any Software. AT&T may also terminate or suspend your Service if you provide false or inaccurate information that is required for the provision of Service or is necessary to allow AT&T to bill you for Service. "We feel that the clarifying language better reflects our actual long-held policy, which respects AT&T’s customers' rights to freely voice their opinions and concerns," says the company.
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jsinaiko
Premium
join:2001-04-25
Chicago, IL
 ·AT&T Midwest
| People Power The outcry here, along with the many complaints about the censoring of Pearl Jam a few months ago had its effect.
Sometimes the good guys win.
A lot of people posted the point that the original TOS was not designed to get folks cut off for criticizing AT&T, but it was still a slippery slope - our society is on a lot of slippery slopes these days - this was not one of the important ones, but it doesn't hurt that they have changed the TOS to clarify things.
Now, if the feds would do the same thing about domestic spying...
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Illegitimati non carborundum
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Noah Vail
Premium
join:2004-12-10
Lorton, VA
 ·RoadRunner Cable
| Shell Game However, AT&T may immediately terminate or suspend all or a portion of your Service, ... for conduct that AT&T believes (a) violates the Acceptable Use Policy; or ... a violation of these TOS, or any applicable policies or guidelines.
So an AT&T user can be kicked off for violating a non-disclosed guideline, instead of a revealed policy.
AT&T comes out of the closet the same way Larry Craig does.
NV
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The More Alike 2 Religions are, the Stronger the Hate between them. | |
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S_engineer
join:2007-05-16
Chicago, IL
·Comcast
| Re: Shell Game Whats missing.....
the fact that by agreeing to these terms you allow att to share (sell) your info with affiliated vendors (telemarket CSRs), as well as other relevent agencies (you know who).
Mybe Craig should have used the translation tools on that cool SBC rocket!
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Burn a tire, but make sure you buy that carbon offset! | |
| | | | openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA | Re: Shell Game That belongs under the "Privacy Policy", not the ToS. | |
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NY Tel
Premium
join:2004-04-09
Smithtown, NY
 ·VOIPo
| said by Noah Vail  :However, AT&T may immediately terminate or suspend all or a portion of your Service, ... for conduct that AT&T believes (a) violates the Acceptable Use Policy; or ... a violation of these TOS, or any applicable policies or guidelines.So an AT&T user can be kicked off for violating a non-disclosed guideline, instead of a revealed policy. AT&T comes out of the closet the same way Larry Craig does. NV I understand that was just a "stall" tactic..... | |
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BodyBumper
join:2004-06-21
Beverly Hills, CA
1 edit | Re: People Power Its not over folks.
Under the "Acceptable Use Policy" (»www.att.net/legal/AUP/)
Failure to observe the guidelines set forth in this AUP may result in AT&T taking actions anywhere from a warning to a suspension of privileges or termination of your Service(s). When feasible, AT&T may provide you with notice of an AUP violation, via Email or otherwise, and demand that such violation be immediately corrected. AT&T reserves the right, however, to act immediately and without notice to suspend or terminate Service(s) in response to a court order or other legal requirement that certain conduct be stopped or when AT&T determines, in its sole discretion, that the conduct may (1) expose AT&T to sanctions, prosecution or civil action, (2) cause harm to or interfere with the integrity or normal operations of AT&T's network(s) or facilities, (3) materially or repeatedly interfere with another person's use of AT&T's Service(s) or the Internet (4) damage or disparage the reputation of AT&T or its Service(s), or (5) otherwise present a risk of harm to AT&T or AT&T's customers , employees, officers, directors, or agents.
then there is...
Illegal/Unauthorized Conduct
Prohibited activities include, but are not limited to:
* transmitting any defamatory, libelous, fraudulent, deceptive indecent, offensive or obscene materials;
* using the Service(s) to deliver spyware, secretly or deceptively obtain the personal information of third parties (phishing, etc.), or engage in modem hi-jacking;
* using the service to impersonate another;
* spreading computer viruses;
* gaining unauthorized access to private networks;
* engaging in the transmission of pirated software;
* conducting or participating in illegal gambling or soliciting for illegal pyramid schemes;
* violating rules, regulations, and policies applicable to any network, server, computer database, web site, or ISP that you access through the Service(s);
* threatening, harassing, abusing, or intimidating others;
* creating or attempting to utilize a domain name that is defamatory, fraudulent, indecent, offensive, deceptive, threatening, abusive, harassing, or which damages the name or reputation of AT&T; or
* re-selling or providing Service(s) to unauthorized third parties, whether as part of a commercial enterprise or otherwise. --
"Time does not actually exist beyond an artificial measure we create in our minds to separate events we experience into blocks that are easier to reference instead of as a whole single event that just happens and continues happening" - evolvedant | |
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GOLFnSUN
Enjoy the sun
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Avalon, NJ
 ·Sprint Mobile Broa..
·Comcast
1 edit |  What a dump truck load of politically correct manure
AT&T respects freedom of expression and believes it is a foundation of our free society to express differing points of view. AT&T will not terminate, disconnect or suspend service because of the views you or we express on public policy matters, political issues or political campaigns. LOL. This pile of manure is just a PR sop for the complainers and has no legal value at all. The rest of that TOS section still lets them terminate anyone they want for just about any reason. How would anyone ever prove why they were terminated?
AT&T may immediately terminate or suspend all or a portion of your Service, any Member ID, electronic mail address, IP address, Universal Resource Locator or domain name used by you, without notice, for conduct that AT&T believes (a) violates the Acceptable Use Policy --
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Internet News
My BLOG
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Titus Pullo
I came, I saw, I slept
join:2004-06-26 | Re: What a dump truck load of politically correct manure You beat me to it. I thought I was back in time swapping and reviewing essays in English 101. Drivel to the 10th.
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major marco
Res Firma Mitescere Nescit
Premium
join:2003-02-13
Stepford, CA
clubs:
| Re: What a dump truck load of politically correct manure said by Titus Pullo :You beat me to it. I thought I was back in time swapping and reviewing essays in English 101. Drivel to the 10th. -- I actually thought I was reading an essay written by a 15 y/o ten minutes before American history class started.
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The Toll
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| | | | ross
join:2000-08-16
·Digizip
| said by GOLFnSUN :AT&T respects freedom of expression and believes it is a foundation of our free society to express differing points of view. AT&T will not terminate, disconnect or suspend service because of the views you or we express on public policy matters, political issues or political campaigns. LOL. This pile of manure is just a PR sop for the complainers and has no legal value at all. The rest of that TOS section still lets them terminate anyone they want for just about any reason. How would anyone ever prove why they were terminated?AT&T may immediately terminate or suspend all or a portion of your Service, any Member ID, electronic mail address, IP address, Universal Resource Locator or domain name used by you, without notice, for conduct that AT&T believes (a) violates the Acceptable Use Policy GOOD GOD, man, the first thing you've said I agree with! Hath Hell frosted over?  | |
| | whocares
Premium
join:2003-07-26
..
| GOLFnSUN
This pile of manure is just a PR sop for the complainers and has no legal value at all. The rest of that TOS section still lets them terminate anyone they want for just about any reason. How would anyone ever prove why they were terminated?
====
AT&T may immediately terminate or suspend all or a portion of your Service, any Member ID, electronic mail address, IP address, Universal Resource Locator or domain name used by you, without notice, for conduct that AT&T believes (a) violates the Acceptable Use Policy
===================================================
makes you wonder where someone gets there news from:
I have been with swbell/sbc/now AT&T for 8-9 yrs now & have almost everything I can get,but
IF they shut or disconnect people for complaining,i would have been disconnected a long time ago
IF theres a problem, I'am taking it 1st to a customer service, then to a Supervisor,then if NEED BE to a vice president,
As many know me here,when it comes to complaining about something, there an't no body more qualified to raise hello then you jazzyby the same token I will fight to defend a a person,company,service, just as strongly as i would defend one of my many friends here
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SOME people are quick to point out others mistakes,
and have a closed mind and R TO BLIND,to SEE their OWN mistakes & only know how to critize.
Others know how to discuss an issue.WHICH R YOU?
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crippy
Premium
join:2005-05-17
some place | double talk all the companies, not just at%t, say something but do something else, this is how they run...  | |
| nasadude
join:2001-10-05
Rockville, MD
·Comcast
| see? that wasn't so hard I agree that the lead sentence in the new TOS is politically correct bullcrap, but the rest of it is very clear and straightforward.
why wasn't it written this way to begin with? either the lawyers weren't given very good direction by upper management as to what the TOS should say, or the original was purposefully written to be as broad and vague as possible to give AT&T maximum leeway to do whatever the hell they want.
you decide: evil corporate behaviour or just an honest mistake? [we're talking AT&T here - what a no-brainer!] | |
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GOLFnSUN
Enjoy the sun
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Avalon, NJ
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
·Comcast
| Re: see? that wasn't so hard said by nasadude :why wasn't it written this way to begin with? either the lawyers weren't given very good direction by upper management as to what the TOS should say, or the original was purposefully written to be as broad and vague as possible to give AT&T maximum leeway to do whatever the hell they want. Of course it was written by AT&T lawyers to give maximum flexibility and maximum legal protection to AT&T actions. That is what they pay their lawyers to do. Their lawyers work for AT&T and NOT consumers.
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Internet News
My BLOG
My Web Page | |
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guyver01
In Brightest Day
join:2001-01-04
Littleton, CO
clubs: | Wireless Apply? Does this apply to AT&T Wireless too? Can this be used to cancel your account without early termination fee? | |
| | | nasadude
join:2001-10-05
Rockville, MD
·Comcast
| Re: see? that wasn't so hard said by GOLFnSUN :Of course it was written by AT&T lawyers to give maximum flexibility and maximum legal protection to AT&T actions. .. ergo, AT&T is evil. | |
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GOLFnSUN
Enjoy the sun
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Avalon, NJ
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
·Comcast
| Re: see? that wasn't so hard said by nasadude :said by GOLFnSUN :Of course it was written by AT&T lawyers to give maximum flexibility and maximum legal protection to AT&T actions. .. ergo, AT&T is evil. LOL. Great logic there.(/sarcasm)
You can FEEL any way you want about AT&T, but claiming they are evil for hiring lawyers to represent their best interests is ludicrous.
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Internet News
My BLOG
My Web Page | |
| | | | openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA
·AT&T Southeast
| said by nasadude :ergo, AT&T is evil. Do you extrapolate that belief to every other corporate entity that has similar verbiage in their AUP/ToS statements? Or are you just following the lemmings in spouting never-ending drivel about how bad AT&T is and that they can't do anything right for the poor consumer? | |
| | | | | nasadude
join:2001-10-05
Rockville, MD
·Comcast
1 edit | Re: see? that wasn't so hard actually, I realize AT&T is in this business to make money and not satisfy customers.
If lack of competition and regulation allows them to treat customers like sh1t, those customers just have to suck it up and take what they are offered. Those customers can of course also choose to do without AT&T's services if they don't like the terms.
that being said, evil is as evil does  | |
| | | | | | openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA | Re: see? that wasn't so hard So I guess you feel that every corporate entity that actually attempts to make money and protect their investment is evil. Where is AT&T exactly treating their customers like sh1t? | |
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major marco
Res Firma Mitescere Nescit
Premium
join:2003-02-13
Stepford, CA
clubs:
| Re: see? that wasn't so hard said by openbox9 : Where is AT&T exactly treating their customers like sh1t? Gee, I dunno where to start. Do you have about a month to read my 5,000 page thesis? No? Ok. Well I'll give you the summation, instead. It started when AT&T decided to illegally wiretap American citizens' conversations without a warrant because the WH promised them lucrative, multi-billion dollar gov't contracts in return.
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The Toll
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| | | | | | | | openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA
·AT&T Southeast
| Re: see? that wasn't so hard Send me your 5,000 page thesis. I'm more than willing to start reading it since your summation is weak on merit. I fail to see how passing information to the NSA for national security is treating their customers like sh1t. What lucrative, multi-billion dollar contracts are you referring to? Are the details in your thesis? | |
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major marco
Res Firma Mitescere Nescit
Premium
join:2003-02-13
Stepford, CA
clubs:
| Re: see? that wasn't so hard said by openbox9 : I fail to see how passing information to the NSA for national security is treating their customers like sh1t. What lucrative, multi-billion dollar contracts are you referring to? Are the details in your thesis? If you don't see any kind of problem with illegal wiretaps then you are beyond hope. Go back to bobbling your telco dittohead. Nothing more to see here.
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The Toll
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| | | | | | | | | | openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA
·AT&T Southeast
| Re: see? that wasn't so hard Actually, I'm not beyond hope, but thanks for your opinion. From your comments (and maybe thesis if you send it for me to read), I'm attempting to understand the direct impact on the customers that make them feel like they are being treated like sh1t. I'm also interested in the alleged multi-billion dollar contracts that were supposedly received in exchange for this sh1tty treatment.
If I were writing a thesis, I would propose that a majority of customers don't know anything about the NSA efforts to fight terrorism in conjunction with telcos based on FISA. Furthermore, I would also offer that of the customers that do understand the situation, only small percentage feel slighted, and an even smaller percentage feel as though they are being treated like sh1t because of the actions. I would most likely avoid allegations of "lucrative, multi-billion dollar" contracts unless some nice proof plopped itself down on my desk. | |
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major marco
Res Firma Mitescere Nescit
Premium
join:2003-02-13
Stepford, CA
clubs:
| said by openbox9 :Do you extrapolate that belief to every other corporate entity that has similar verbiage in their AUP/ToS statements? Or are you just following the lemmings in spouting never-ending drivel about how bad AT&T is and that they can't do anything right for the poor consumer? Eh, a little fiber in the diet goes a long way to help ease any extrapolation issues one may be experiencing, but yeah, all AUP/TOS are pretty much a joke and written for no other reason than to allow wiggle room out of prosecution should it come down to it.
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The Toll
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| | | | | | openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA
·AT&T Southeast
| Re: see? that wasn't so hard What does fiber have to do with extrapolating conclusions/beliefs about peers in a marketplace based on the feelings about one entity? The AUP/ToS service other uses beyond your legal wiggle room; such as dealing with unruly customers, setting a baseline of expectations between provider and consumer, providing legals grounds for the customer and yes, your provider, etc. | |
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major marco
Res Firma Mitescere Nescit
Premium
join:2003-02-13
Stepford, CA
clubs:
| Re: see? that wasn't so hard said by openbox9 :The AUP/ToS service other uses beyond your legal wiggle room; such as dealing with unruly customers, setting a baseline of expectations between provider and consumer, providing legals grounds for the customer and yes, your provider, etc. Bobble:Bobble:Bobble
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The Toll
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Nightshade
sic semper tyrannis
Premium
join:2002-05-26
Salem, OR | But who are the ones who pays the bills for the AT&T lawyers? Oh that's right the ratepayers do. Ratepayers are consumers too.
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True Happiness Must Come From Within | |
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icp1
Premium
join:2000-10-13
Saint Louis, MO
clubs: | complainers Some of you guys would complain if it said "do whatever you want with it and never be disconnected! Heck, don't even pay us anymore!" | |
| | viperlmw
Premium
join:2005-01-25
·Qwest.net
| Re: complainers said by icp1 :Some of you guys would complain if it said "do whatever you want with it and never be disconnected! Heck, don't even pay us anymore!" I wouldn't! | |
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braynes
Premium
join:2005-03-14
Waterville, ME | Do yhey need a Proofreader ? "Termination or suspension by AT&T of Service also constitutes termination or suspension (as applicable) of your license to use any Software."
Do you think they mean there software it does not so that.
Bruce | |
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brandon
Some truth included in this post.
Premium
join:2003-03-31
Hurley, MS | Re: Do yhey need a Proofreader ? Do you? | |
| moonpuppy
join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD | Could they be anymore vague? That is the biggest load of BS seen.
I can see one day the government coming in and ruling TOS agreements null and void just because of the massive stupidity written into them.
No wonder people are taking hammers to companies. | |
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joe smoe
@insightbb.com | getting rid of the only thing att wants to get rid of is employees. get ready for cable tv service, thats where its going down | |
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CConverse
join:2006-01-31
Syracuse, NY
| Re: getting rid of said by joe smoe :
the only thing att wants to get rid of is employees. Yes! Hit the nail on the head. AT&T doesn't want to cut people off from DSL, shoot, they spent a lot of money implementing it, if they disconnect people there goes their revenue stream! Employees, however, are an expense. If they're not laying them off they are replacing them with lower cost ones in India or the Philippines... | |
| axus
join:2001-06-18
Washington, DC | So... what is the Acceptable Use Policy ? What are the Terms of Service? Hope they don't include "damaging the reputation of AT&T or its allies". And what if AT&T irrationally believes I violated the AUP? | |
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See 6 replies to this post | |
redblkjck
Premium
join:2001-11-07
Sanford, NC
| They ban you for posting complaints on AT&T forums Yeah but they still ban you from posting on their forums...
For instance, users that purchased a BlackJack are finding they have been 'bait and switch' to AT&T's PDA plan. Even though the BlackJack is clearly a smartphone, sells as a smartphone and advertises for Media Max service; they are forcing users to pay the PDA data plan because it has a QWERTY keyboard. This is huge difference in price for the same service. Start bringing up issues about the phone working on their MediaMax and you are banned from the official AT&T support forum. Don't complain about the plan on their forum or might be banned.
»forums.wireless.att.com/cng/boar···&page=17
Below is an recent quoted post from a AT&T employee Sentry
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Phoenix11 wrote:
This is just amazing... ATT has had to restate their TOS due to overzealous actions taken by ATT personnel concerning customers making statements about the company. Now of course this is in reference to their internet service AUP, but if you consider this view to be a standard ATT policy, then Sentry... I suggest you lighten up, because your policy is a direct contradiction to ATT's.
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Moderator
Sentry: wrote
Why do you persist if you know that I will continue to ban you for your violations of our forum policy which is clearly articulated within our Guidelines? If you are unhappy with this rule, simply post in another forum but do not expect consolation from me or other moderators when we are merely enforcing Guidelines you've agreed to now twice.
- AT&T retains the right to remove content and limit users' access -
AT&T does not generally edit or monitor content posted by participants in its Wireless Forums. However, AT&T retains the right, at its sole discretion, to limit users' access to the Wireless Forums and to remove material that, in AT&T's sole judgment, does not comply with the current Usage Guidelines or with the Web Services and Acceptable Use Agreement, or that is otherwise inappropriate for these Wireless Forums, harmful, objectionable, or inaccurate. AT&T also retains the right to assign such right to some members of the Wireless Forums community. AT&T is not responsible for any failure or delay in removing such material. Moderators may take any action they deem necessary in their own judgment to support the Usage Guidelines and Web Services and Acceptable Use Agreement, and, in general, that can detract from the experience of other users or the purpose of the support community. Such actions may include editing or deleting material and banning individual users.
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