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Alcatel-Lucent Tests 300 Mbps DSL
At roughly 1,300 feet in lab tests...
by Karl Bode 08:32AM Wednesday Apr 21 2010
Alcatel-Lucent's research arm, Bell Labs, has announced that the company has achieved speeds of 800 Mbps using a pair of traditional DSL lines. Those speeds were achieved during a lab test of something they're calling "DSL Phantom Mode," which the firm says was achieved by the creation of an third "phantom" channel to supplement the two physical wires common with bonded DSL. Lab tests also found that the technology is capable of offering 100 Mbps over a distance of 1,000 meters (3,820 feet).

Apparently the bonded lines and phantom mode creates a lot of crosstalk (or noise) on the lines, so the company is using vectoring to analyze the lines and cancel out noise (a simplistic metaphor might be noise-canceling headphones). Alcatel-Lucent clearly wants DSL to remain relevant amidst all this talk of 100 Mbps connectivity that recently surfaced around the FCC's broadband plan. Many phone companies with limited cash that are nursing copper are listening.

"Alcatel-Lucent Bell Labs' DSL Phantom Mode lab test adds a whole new dimension to the ongoing '100Mbps for all' debate," insists Ovum analyst Kamalini Ganguly, apparently part-timing it as an Alcatel-Lucent spokesperson in their release. "The fact that existing copper loops can facilitate 300Mbps at 400 meters reshapes the whole next-generation broadband competitive environment - and will open up a wide range of new business opportunities for 'traditional' DSL players," says Ganguly.

Of course if you ask the Fiber To The Home Council (stocked largely with fiber vendors), carriers looking to upgrade would be better served by simply making that jump to fiber -- which continues to get cheaper to deploy and will better help them fend off faster speeds delivered by DOCSIS 3.0 upgrades without pesky distance limitations. The firm recently issued a study claiming that once fiber to the home networks are built, take rates among consumers averages "above 50 percent."

As for 300 Mbps DSL, it's still only being tested in a lab environment, not on the real world's aging copper, where homes may or may not have an extra pair to spare. Any real product capable of that speed won't be out for a year or two, and nothing guarantees it sees any level of real adoption. Phantoms and other spirits aside, here in the States production delays mean we still haven't even seen just regular bonded VDSL (which will improve both VDSL distance and speed), though AT&T appears to be close. For now, Alcatel-Lucent seems to have created a 300 Mbps stopgap that may or may not ever actually arrive in the field.

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openbox9
Premium
join:2004-01-26
Germany
kudos:2

Are Take Rates Really That High?

take rates among consumers averages "above 50 percent."
I thought it was closer to 30-40%...at least based on VZ's FiOS.

Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02
kudos:42

1 recommendation

Re: Are Take Rates Really That High?

Yeah it is lower for Verizon but higher for the 700+ other outfits deploying fiber -- at least according to their data, and the FTTH council is of course created by those same companies selling the gear and deploying it, so....
Bobcat79
Premium
join:2001-02-04

400 meters?

Get back to me when you reach 4000 meters.

Duramax08
To The Moon
Premium
join:2008-08-03
San Antonio, TX

Re: 400 meters?

+1 but a little more further.

tschmidt
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
kudos:9
Reviews:
·Hollis Hosting
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said by Bobcat79:

Get back to me when you reach 4000 meters.
Ain't going to happen. This is just another stopgap technology to use fiber to the node (FTTN) rather then fiber to the premise (FTTP).

/tom

en102
Canadian, eh?

join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA
400 meters is equal to 1,312.34 feet.
I'd recommend having at least 100Mbps at 1000 meters (3,280.84 feet ) to make it worthwhile.
rebus9

join:2002-03-26
Tampa Bay
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
·Bright House

1 edit
said by Bobcat79:

Get back to me when you reach 4000 meters.
Yeah, you can say that again.

quote:
At roughly 1,300 feet in lab tests...
That's great if you happen to live next door to the phone company. All others need not apply.

quote:
Lab tests also found that the technology is capable of offering 100 Mbps over a distance of 1,000 meters (3,820 feet).
Allowing for winding paths, that's a 1/2 mile radius. Sorry, I'm not feeling the love. The cable guy with DOCSIS 3 can give you 100 Mbps throughout their footprint.

I'm not a cable fanboy; just putting a realistic spin on it. All the speed in the world is useless if very few people can get it. Let's hope further research figures out how to extend those distances to something more real-world.
Mr Matt

join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
·Embarq Now Centu..
·Comcast
·CenturyLink

Make a really attractive bundle using new technology.

Offer Two Land Lines and high speed DSL as a bundle. When I lived in South Florida, BellSouth offered Complete Choice which included all Custom Calling features for a flat rate price. Customer could subscribe to a second line with same feature options for $10.00 per month plus crap charges.

mrkevin
Knowledge comes, but wisdom lingers.
Premium
join:2007-08-07
Aurora, ME

limp it along...

Let's be done with the copper already...It's time to move on now. Resistance is futile.

We are 260 installs into our FTTH re-build and I would venture a guess at 75-80% take rate on the broadband service.
This isn't because broadband service wasn't available via DSL.

All this time and effort...It's like trying to hang on to the old time open wire days, or the pony express.

--
An army of sheep led by a lion, will always defeat an army of lions led by a sheep.

ArgMeMatey

join:2001-08-09
Milwaukee, WI
kudos:2
Reviews:
·voip.ms
·AT&T Midwest
·Time Warner Cable

Re: limp it along...

said by mrkevin:

Let's be done with the copper already...It's time to move on now. Resistance is futile.
...

It's like trying to hang on to the old time open wire days, or the pony express.

Yes. The technical case is clear. Now, you need to convince management, accounting, and shareholders to get behind this. I'll check back in 20 years to see how that's going. Good luck.
--
USNG:
16TDN2870
Find your Lat-Long:
Geocoder

en102
Canadian, eh?

join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA

Re: limp it along...

That's where the biggest holdup is.
Greenfield deployments are an easy case.
TheRogueX

join:2003-03-26
Springfield, MO
Hey, whoever owns all that copper could replace it with fiber, dig it up and sell it to China, making a fortune.
--
»/im/82288374/5591.png
Bob61571

join:2008-08-08
Washington, IL

ditto mrkevin

At a certain point, the new tech justifies itself with $ .

How close are we to that, with fiber over copper? Any studies to justify it?
openbox9
Premium
join:2004-01-26
Germany
kudos:2

Re: ditto mrkevin

Yes, at some point the cost to maintain and operate the copper plant will outgrow the cost of replacing with fiber. Watch AT&T. When it throws away its copper plans and begin upgrading with fiber, that tipping point will have been reached IMO.
fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3

1 recommendation

Seems silly to me..

... I don't get it. If all these companies in "the industry" would stop investing into DSL technology and refocus their resources, it just seems to me that deploying a solid fiber option would seem "less expensive" in the end.

I dunno, though.. maybe the "industry" wants to keep this going. Maybe there's something to be said about the reasons why the health care industry doesn't want to actually "cure" anyone.. they'd rather keep their "inventory" of sick people flowing so the industry keeps making money. This also reminds me of an industry that just won't die; telemarketing. JUST becuase it's something that makes money doesn't mean it's worth continuing. All it does is make those involved rich. Innovate.. move forward. It's time to invest in something that makes sense.. and DSL just doesn't make sense anymore. They're trying to stretch that copper wire so much that eventually its just going to snap.

Until America, and many other countries of the world, finally "get it" we're bound to keep up with status quo and continue to invest in the past. And no, it doesn't mean I also support this 'green' push either.

en102
Canadian, eh?

join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA

Re: Seems silly to me..

Bingo

1. Money/Investors are needed to fund fiber deployment (just like FiOS), and they expect a return on their investment

2. Corporations want to see the money flowing in (vs. having to pay out for deployment or raise rates and send customers to competition)

3. An independent company / investor (or muni) is what's needed. They typically get knocked off by big telco/cableco lawyers/lobbiests.
fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3

1 edit

Re: Seems silly to me..

There is also one thing I'm actually for as far as Giver-ment regulation (and while I AM for regulation, I'm for it to a point)...

I believe that Hollywood needs to see some regulation once and for all. Yup! Hollywood!

My views don't come from business merging as I believe that with out some of these mergers, we'd not be where we are at today. Comcast would not be able to have pushed out the expense to bring out Docsis 3.0 today, I don't think we'd really see the DVR at levels they are today becuase the buying power would have been smaller and prices even higher for less adoption, I think we'd not even see cable in telephone.. all good things in my eyes.

Verizon would not have had the money to deploy Fiber with out strength in size.

I believe that if it weren't for the size of some of these companies, I think even the price of entertainment would be even higher than it is today as well. I DO see benefits to the prices we pay today; they could be worse. Smaller cable operators are a sign of that as they often charge more for their services than even the big boys.

HOWEVER, I believe that everything comes in that wave-cycle. We have the high points and we cycle back to low points. (Same as the spectrum wave that we all know about) I believe that it's probably time to, as people, stop focusing on the big boys and back to the people a little more. Yup! Get back on your chairs - I said it. (to a point)

What we've seen already is that people are there.. customers are subscribing and overall we know there is plenty of entertainment money to go around. We KNOW that Hollywood (for a general term) can support certain prices. In fact, they CAN actually take a HUGE cut in what they bring in and still not blink an eye in the process.

I STILL think that much of this is entertainment and is still a luxury. I still believe that internet has to be decided if it's a utility or not, and I believe that the wire line telephone system still is a foundation of our society. (remember, much of our phone calls STILL hit a wired service during that call, so don't think just about the drop to the home)

But, where I see things, it's time that the INDUSTRY makes their own investment. THEY, as a collective, need to put their organizations together and figure this out on their own without government involvement. We KNOW how many customers are out there so they need to put that to the side for a moment, and instead of worrying about monthly sub numbers, they need to COLLECTIVELY figure out how to get to more of them and connect to more of them.

If these idiotic ass-hats in the industry would pull their collective heads out of their holes for a moment, pool their money together, they could connect more people, cut their profit margins for a bit, improve the delivery systems, access, and drop their rates.. they can make their money on QUANTITY over QUALITY of their monthly bills.

However, I still think that if they're going to accomplish this, the MAIN issue, in my eyes, comes from Hollywood.. the TRUE pig is in California.

I dunno.. I don't think I'm as, um, envious of Brian Robert's paycheck as I am the one Tom Cruise gets, the spoiled brat. At LEAST Brian has to go to work and think.. Tom just shows up and reads a script, and WHO makes more again? Anyone know why Tom left Paramount? Lets just say, it takes a LOT of money to take over something as big as United Artists... yea, in my opinion THAT guy made too much money for what he does.. and, apparently he and Paramount disagreed on how much Tom was getting in the process.

In the end, I just think the entire entertainment industry is WAY out of balance.

Also, to me, I don't think that these LARGER corporations are really making what I consider an "investment".. Investment takes RISK, something I don't think they're taking. I think many of them are simply purchasing with little RISK involved. So, I think the term "investment" is actually an understatement. I think they're doing minimal involved to keep what they have so rather than "investing" I believe they're simply trying to "retain" what they have.

As much as I HATE verizon as a company, I see what they did with their Fios deployment was infact a "risk".. they put their money where their mouth was and it was a risk that is paying off for them. Still, it's a risk that I think they didn't CHOSE to take, I think it's one they were FORCED to take so I give them only a little credit. So while I think it was a right thing to do, I don't think they did it was much honorability.

And, ONE thing I will give Obama credit for is that while it's not popular, it's something that people need to hear. When Obama basically is telling investors that we need to rethink about how we invest, the republicans take that as a threat to a system that has been out of control over the last decade. While we all still have a right to make money, and people WILL make money, we need to take a break from INSTANT returns and put the real meaning behind the term INVESTMENT again. We not only invest our money to make money, we also need to invest in OURSELVES so that we can continue to sustain future investments. It is, however, hard to take something back, or move us back some, when we've let things get out of hand.

Bodybagger
Premium
join:2010-03-30
Saint Matthews, SC
Reviews:
·Windstream

It's all about money

Most companies don't have the money to deploy these types of speeds. Needless to say, they don't want to cut back on their out of pocket money. In rural areas, the same old 1960's phone lines(figure of speech) is still being used to provide the consumers with high speed internet. This explains the constant disconnects, slower speed, and the mass of problems that most rural people experience. This also comes from outdated and glitchy equipment in the boxes(tech is out fixing an issue at least once a week). The payback rate from what these companies charge for high speed is not high enough in the short run to replace all this equipment and run new lines. Sure, 10 years after deployment to every customer they will see profit but it's not worth it to them to have to wait that long to see profit. Rural areas are screwed just like always. Hopefully the "Broadband Plan" will mandate some prices and speeds that these providers we are stuck with(some of us only have one option) will have to comply to. As for now, we have to deal with what we got until something changes to where the provider has to abide by. At least we have broadband eh? No matter how many times you have to fix a minor issue to mask the true problems, just keep pocketing the money instead of implementing it into helping the customer.

tschmidt
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
kudos:9
Reviews:
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Phantom circuits are 100 year old telephone technology

Once again old telephone technology has been dusted off to extend the life of copper.
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_circuit

Phantom circuits have been used for a 100 years (well almost) to create a third phone line from two voice pairs. Because derived line is not a twisted pair it is much more susceptible to disturbance. As an aside this is also how Power over Ethernet (PoE) works.

Once again, as with the case of DSL, clever engineering used to re-purpose aging copper plant. At 1300 feet will only work with extensive network of Remote Terminals. Have to question if it make sense to keep postponing inevitable transition to fiber to the premise (FTTP)?

/tom

jchambers28

join:2007-05-12
Alma, AR

32,000 ft

let me know when when u can extend the reach to 32,000 ft then we will talk.

old_dawg
"I Know Noting..."

join:2001-09-22
Westminster, MD

Meh

Famous last words when a vendor tries to hustle a product:

"It works in the lab" , which rings true more often than not when Alcatel is involved.
--
"Our network engineers are aware of the problem..."

cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:7

Re: Meh

said by old_dawg:

"It works in the lab" , which rings true more often than not when Alcatel is involved.
Yup. What has Alcatel (or it's predicessors) ever done in a lab.
patcat88

join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
kudos:1
And it will bring down every other DSL line in the cable bundle from its RF emissions.
tmc8080

join:2004-04-24
Brooklyn, NY
Reviews:
·ooma
·Optimum Online
·Verizon FiOS

schmuck walks into a bar...

a schmuck walks into a bar and drops an iphone.. oh wait.. wrong thread, nevermind.

DSL is worthless technology.. apparently the schmuck didn't get the memo that VERY FEW CUSTOMERS ACTUALLY LIVE 400 meters from a central office OR A DSLAM for that matter. Just about the only company even remotely (remote, heh what a joke) interested might be AT&T.. and that's until cable companies get serious about docsis 3 at affordable prices.

Too little too late. Don't bother cooking up crap in the lab because we won't have special tailor made copper plant which is in PRISTINE oxygen insulated cabling with down hill (aka most favorable) non-interference conditions.

Dumb & dumber apparently cant get their tech working properly... docsis 3.0 has flaws & dsl has the aura of SLOW analog modem written all over it. Write back when this tech is actually FIXED IN THE REAL WORLD!
WhatNow
Premium
join:2009-05-06
Charlotte, NC
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable

Let the customer provide the drop

One way to speed up fiber deployment would be for the customer to provide the fiber drop to the street. That is how towns and cities do it when a an area moves from wells to a water main or provides sewer lines.
If you have seen this happen many of the homeowners do everything possible not to pay for the connection. Getting the fiber down the street is not the expensive part. The cost of placing a drop in older neighborhoods that have houses close together with fences and very little grass.
It would be an interesting experiment if a company said they would provide the fiber drop and connection if the customer provided/paid for a conduit or ditch to the connect point on the house. Then you would see if people would put their money where their mouth is.
The problem is the ISPs are being told you have to provide the fiber but no one makes the customers take the service or keep the service on a contract.
jca2050
Premium
join:2002-02-04
Dallas, TX

1 edit

DSL

Yet another attempt to prolong the extinction of an outdated technology, I wonder if Verizon is laughing at these people. I mean, they were the only ones with the foresight to deploy a future-proof technology on a widespread level and it seems to be paying off. When is AT&T going to get on the train? When cable operators start really utilizing DOCSIS 3.0 and blow U-Verse out of the water?

Hpower
Roflmao

join:2000-06-08
Glendale, CA

1 edit

Meh...

A little too late to make this worthwhile plus 400 meters is not enough to make anyone think about this.

It may work well in the lab but in the real world, it's going to FAIL!
--
The Internet is about to go down....it is actually.
MrHappy316
Wish I had my tank
Premium
join:2003-01-02
Monterey, CA

Could be a good thing?

Do not see why everyone is upset. Look at it this way, if this works it allows companies to continue using the same lines and not having to upgrade to fiber yet for those of us in urban situations where we are close.

Then those companies can take that savings and utilize it where it needs to be utilized, bringing fiber to the more rural areas the company services. Then later on down the road say 5-10 years they can upgrade what they have in their urban areas to fiber which should make everyone happy.

Of course I'm in dreamland as I do not think there is a single corporate entity in the US that you can replace "company" above with an actual name. Oh well just a thought.

dvd536
as Mr. Pink as they come
Premium
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ
kudos:4

Does 896kbps upstream

even supply enough ACKs for 300mbps downstream?
NyNexit

join:2009-11-01
Huntington, NY

nice!

Well, this will be nice for Rural America if it ever gets deployed.