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story category America Has Absolutely No Idea If Citizens Have Broadband
And it's a problem that's not going to be fixed any time soon
(old news - 10:37AM Tuesday Mar 20 2007)
tags: coverage · business · Op/Ed
As we recently noted, Maryland lawmakers were working on a plan that would force ISPs in the state to present quarterly reports on exactly where they offer service and at what speeds in order to help the state solve broadband penetration issues. Local papers now report that the plan has been scuttled by Verizon and Comcast lobbyists, who claim the law would do everything from stifle innovation to close down regional coffee shops (that logic isn't explained).

Maryland's plan was a reaction to a problem we've touched on endlessly: FCC broadband data is not reliable, so nobody in this country really knows the depth of coverage gaps. Without knowing the reality on the ground, lawmakers can't draft effective policy (if such an idea was possible to begin with). The Center for Public Integrity recently sued the FCC in order to obtain the FCC's unpublicized raw data on broadband penetration (see our interview).

Incumbents have been fighting the release of that data, which would indicate exactly which neighborhoods incumbents deem "profitable to serve" and could shine light on the kind of calculations they use to come to that determination. Incumbents claim the release of the data would cause "competitive harm"; Verizon recently insisted that cherry picking affluent neighborhoods "was not in their corporate DNA."

The FCC seems unwilling to improve their data collection methodology. Incumbent providers are not interested in providing data that illuminates their deployment shortfalls. State and local governments are left without the information needed to help improve geographical broadband coverage, and attempts to correct this are shot down by deep-pocketed lobbyists. So what's the solution?

Related:
  1. Yeah, Who Wants Accurate Broadband Stats Anyway
  2. FCC: What Broadband Problem?
  3. Mapping American Broadband
  4. Verizon & AT&T Defend 'Anti-Tech' Positions
  5. ISP Lobbying Group: What Rural Broadband Problem?
  6. Can't We All Just Get Along?
  7. Verizon: Stop Yer Broadband Bellyachin'
  8. Nation's Largest ISPs Crafting Fake National Broadband Policy
Forums » America Has Absolutely No Idea If Citizens Have Broadband
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DufiefData

join:2006-06-13
Gaithersburg, MD


edit:
March 20th, @09:56AM

Yikez! There's no solution!

"The FCC seems unwilling to improve their data collection methodology. Incumbent providers are not interested in providing data...and attempts to correct this are shot down by deep pocketed lobbyists. So what's the solution?"


There is no solution! Without this data, everybody's DSL modems will melt and the nation will explode from Digital Dividiosis!!!
RayW
Premium
join:2001-09-01
Layton, UT
clubs:
·XMission

Re: Yikez! There's no solution!

said by DufiefData See Profile :

"The FCC seems unwilling to improve their data collection methodology. Incumbent providers are not interested in providing data...and attempts to correct this are shot down by deep pocketed lobbyists. So what's the solution?"
Now how can you imply that the cablecos and telcos have anything but the best interest of the people at their heart? It only looks like they are cherry picking and trying to maintain a tight grip on the infrastructure, they are doing 'phased' build-outs, honest, the scumless well off areas are being thought of. And those lawsuits and payoffs you read about are nothing more than an attempt at maintaining a high quality of service for the user.
--
I am not lost, I find myself every time.

TK Junk Mail
Go ahead, make my day
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Margate City, NJ
clubs:
·Comcast

Yikez! There is a solution!

State and local governments are left without the information needed to help improve geographical broadband coverage, and attempts to correct this are shot down by deep-pocketed lobbyists. So what's the solution? .
Just put a question on the next census form asking if the household has broadband and a couple check boxes for speed. Then their will be a national map of broadband coverage.
--
--
My BLOG
My Web Page

en102
Canadian, eh?

join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA

Re: Yikez! There is a solution!

Even if they did have data on broadband in the US... would they do anything with it (anything to fix the problem that is) ?

N3OGH
They both suck, we're so screwed
Premium
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs
·Verizon Online DSL

said by TK Junk Mail See Profile :

State and local governments are left without the information needed to help improve geographical broadband coverage, and attempts to correct this are shot down by deep-pocketed lobbyists. So what's the solution? .
Just put a question on the next census form asking if the household has broadband and a couple check boxes for speed. Then their will be a national map of broadband coverage.
Good solution for a quick snapshot, but a few problems with using the census is;

1: It's only conducted every 10 years. Pretty much an eternity in the tech world.

2: A lot of people would have no idea what broadband is, or if they have it. The data would be um, mildly unreliable...
--
FCC, PLEASE KILL THE MERGER BEFORE THE MERGER KILLS SATRAD!
shoan

join:2006-02-27
Benton, AR

another approach

maryland could make a form or a website that the citizens of maryland could access and check boxes of what is offered to thier address. As incentive for this they could send a check for a few dollors for the citizens time. I know if I was told hey go to this state website and click yes or no to what was offered to my home be it dsl, cable, or wireless for a few dollors I would jump on it. Or they could add the question to the census that the state takes periodically. My town just recently held a special census just to see if they could get more state money since we are growing so fast. That way it is not forcing the providers to provide any information. But im sure they would lobby like hell to stop this simple way of mapping out where the broadband really is.
moonpuppy

join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD

Re: another approach

None of that would matter. You see, Maryland has a long tradition of taking lobby money and doing nothing for the citizens except raise their taxes and give themselves pay raises.

Maryland; If you can dream it, we can tax it.

N3OGH
They both suck, we're so screwed
Premium
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs
·Verizon Online DSL

Re: another approach

said by moonpuppy See Profile :

None of that would matter. You see, Maryland has a long tradition of taking lobby money and doing nothing for the citizens except raise their taxes and give themselves pay raises.

Maryland; If you can dream it, we can tax it.
HMM, sounds like PA!!!!
--
FCC, PLEASE KILL THE MERGER BEFORE THE MERGER KILLS SATRAD!

anon999

@ameritech.net

Re: another approach

And

New York
California
Florida
Michigan
Texas
Montana
Nevada
Alabama
Georgia
Kentucky
Minnesota
Ohio
Colorado
Maine
North Carolina
South Carolina
Oklahoma
Kansas
Massachusetts
Tennessee
Arizona
New Mexico
Illinois

etc. etc. etc.

All the same. Politicians who think of themselves and government and how they can get more money out of everybody.

N3OGH
They both suck, we're so screwed
Premium
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs

Re: another approach

Point well taken....

tim_k
Buttons N Bows
Premium
join:2002-02-02
Stewartstown, PA

said by N3OGH See Profile :

said by moonpuppy See Profile :

None of that would matter. You see, Maryland has a long tradition of taking lobby money and doing nothing for the citizens except raise their taxes and give themselves pay raises.

Maryland; If you can dream it, we can tax it.
HMM, sounds like PA!!!!
Ain't that the truth!
--
RIP my baby Buttons

old_dawg
"I Know Noting..."

join:2001-09-22
Westminster, MD

Bravo from yet another unwilling resident of Taxachusetts on the Chesapeake!. Funny how the "new" totally demo-ratic regime, er government can take the last surplus (when there was a Republican governor) and ! presto ! make it a stuctural deficit???. O'Malley?, Oh no!.
--
"Our network engineers are aware of the problem..."
moonpuppy

join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD
·Verizon Online DSL

Re: another approach

said by old_dawg See Profile :

Bravo from yet another unwilling resident of Taxachusetts on the Chesapeake!. Funny how the "new" totally demo-ratic regime, er government can take the last surplus (when there was a Republican governor) and ! presto ! make it a stuctural deficit???. O'Malley?, Oh no!.
Where is the new Public Service Commission that was supposed to reign in price hikes made by Constellation Energy? Where is all these great things to lower my taxes? Another year the Democratic legislators have been bought out by the lobbyist.

FiL
Premium
join:2005-08-16
Silver Spring, MD

Re: another approach

least O'Malley ain't raisin' MY college tuition!

Go O'Malley!

bentman78
Bentley

join:2004-04-16
Arlington, VA

Re: another approach

He doesn't have to, the colleges do that themselves.

old_dawg
"I Know Noting..."

join:2001-09-22
Westminster, MD

said by FiL See Profile :

least O'Malley ain't raisin' MY college tuition!

Go O'Malley!
Yeah, let's bring the murder rate UP Statewide not just in the cesspool city of Baltimore, let's have a new State Police Commissioner every month, let's tax tax tax.

--
"Our network engineers are aware of the problem..."
ross

join:2000-08-16
·Digizip

Sorry, but your idea won't float for the following reasons:

1) Data collected from citizens would probably be incomplete, and erroneous.

2) Telco and Cableco employees would be encouraged to provide data that could be misleading for obvious reasons.

3) Paying anyone would really encourage and REWARD Telco and Cableco employees to respond.

4) Forcing the industry to release the required data is the only way an effective and accurate audit of infrastructure can be compiled and assessed. Anything less would produce sham results.
bi0tech

join:2003-06-19

edit:
March 20th, @10:55AM

Re: another approach

Anything less has and continues to produce sham results.

Michieru
zzz zzz zzz
Premium
join:2005-01-28
Miami, FL
·Speakeasy

4) Forcing the industry to release the required data is the only way an effective and accurate audit of infrastructure can be compiled and assessed. Anything less would produce sham results.

Yet the companies would quickly falsify or mislead that information provided in that audit.

Its better done having a citizen simply put if he has "DSL, Cable, Fiber" and if so he is classified as broadband.

Now broadband classification is 256k but thats another issue and that would be forcing the FCC to raise the minimum of what broadband will be. Which in general should be 1.5/256 IMHO.

Another thing to know is that during the time of the census you are dealing with a government employee those who are paid shills are best brought up in the census as well but under another classification.

If the surrounding area has from each and every home around such cable or telco employee than his answer will validate.
A answer could be validated as false stating that he has broadband 8.0/768 yet the neighbor next door does not.

A simple show of your phone bill or ISP bill will show what package you have and that data could later be validated to see what that customer is capable of getting but simply does not due to price.

But to simply rely on the industry for an answer will provide only one side of the story. Data should be collected from both sides and compare that data to get a good estimate on what is covered and what is not.
--
The only limits we have are the one's we set ourselves.
bi0tech

join:2003-06-19
·Comcast

Re: another approach

Validation yes, but putting the onus on the general public seems rather backward. Half of america still couldn't define broadband much less tell you if they have it.

Corporate reporting should form the basis possibly correlated with USGS data in an interactive mapping format. (think google maps, with a different color flag for each provider) Companies simply define areas they claim to service. Anyone that cannot get service in an area indicated as serviced can file a notice or have that territory removed from the coverage map. Of course some sort of fine system would also have to be in place to keep commercial entities from repeatedly claiming coverage in non-serviced areas.

The technology and geocoding data is readily available. There absolutely no need to keep up hiding public data.

RIRWIN1983

join:2005-08-30
Columbus, OH

Want accurate counts

The PUC should realy know better where coverage is, or any utility locator, sinch they have to mark where the stuf is burried, why would a flag for comcast be in a yard that cant get their service, humm?
patcat88

join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY

Re: Want accurate counts

said by RIRWIN1983 See Profile :

The PUC should realy know better where coverage is, or any utility locator, sinch they have to mark where the stuf is burried, why would a flag for comcast be in a yard that cant get their service, humm?
But thats "proprietory trade secrets". The PUCs and DOTs have plenty of info on broadband but they cant release it. lol

RIRWIN1983

join:2005-08-30
Columbus, OH

Re: Want accurate counts

exactly! and thats were the laws need changed. require them to provide that only to the FCC for more accurate counts/%

Titus Pullo
I came, I saw, I slept

join:2004-06-26

When monkeys fly out

of our arse, people will _start_ to realize just how f'd they are from corporate interests at the helm of government. Until then, it's a 'slow bleed' along a 'hard slog' until we 'round the corner' on a 'new america' at 'the end of the day'.

John T

@northgrum.com

Coffee shops? Is it a paperwork argument?

close down regional coffee shops (that logic isn't explained).

Weird. Trying to understand that one. Are they perhaps arguing that coffee shops and other businesses that offer WiFi would find it too expensive and/or time-consuming to produce quarterly reports for the handful of customers who take advantage of their services, and might decide to not offer wireless rather than have to do all the paperwork? I suppose it's sort of plausible.
quatrix

join:2005-02-11
Davie, FL

They're running businesses

They can offer service wherever they want. It's no different from restaurants, supermarkets, etc. popping up in more profitable neighborhoods. It's called capitalism.

ieolus
Support The Clecs

join:2001-06-19
Duluth, GA

Re: They're running businesses

Except when they deny others via lawsuits/state lobbying from competing in the areas they decide to abandon (aka Muni broadband).
--
"Speak for yourself "Chadmaster" - lesopp
karlmarx

join:2006-09-18
Nashua, NH
·Fairpoint Communic..

Not in their 'DNA'

Umm, they are corporations. By definition, a corporation tries to provide the least amount of service, for the greatest price it can charge. Naturally, that means they cherry pick the neighborhoods they serve.

If they AREN'T cherry picking, then why don't they want the data to see the light of day? Hmm.. me thinks they doth protest too much.

The solution, of course, is to have the FCC perform it's MANDATE, which is to SERVE THE PUBLIC GOOD. Note: The PUBLIC GOOD != Corporate welfare. The public good is that which helps the most number of people. Sure, the capitalists HATE the idea of an educated public. Why else would they protest the release of the raw data? Trust me, Verizon KNOWS what the raw data will show. It will show them cherry picking the areas they choose to service. It will SHOW them redlining entire communities. It will SHOW that Verizons best interest most certainly isn't the publics best interest. And THAT, of course, is what terrifies them. They are a UTILITY. PERIOD.
--
Stick it to the MAN. Support your local torrent sites. Proudly providing 100mb of upstream for all your TV, Movie, and MP3 needs.

Farley
Holyshnikes

join:2002-01-23
Croswell, MI


edit:
March 20th, @05:00PM

Re: Not in their 'DNA'

Right, get the "data" and then force them to put in areas where it may or may not be profitable for them.

Funny Karl, on other topics your so worried about your rights and privacy being invaded, but when it comes to the rights of business's and free enterprise its a different story.

--
The exsistance of Flame throws says that at sometime, somewhere, someone said, ya know.. i really want to light that guy over there on fire but i just cant reach that far...

bentman78
Bentley

join:2004-04-16
Arlington, VA
·Comcast


edit:
March 21st, @12:05PM

Re: Not in their 'DNA'

thus the error of liberalism. Rights can be invaded and taken away as long as it's generally agreed upon by them.

The same people see to be worried about prices, yet don't seem to realize if theses companies are forced to lay broadband in unprofitable areas they will have to compensate for their losses with rate hikes even higher than now.

The other solution is state run broadband initiatives. Worried about wire tapping now? What happens when the guvment owns the lines? Plus can you imagine the guvment being a broadband provider? I mean with them being good at customer service and being efficient and all.
--
"I hate conservatives, but I really hate liberals." - Matt Stone
»www.reason.com/

Dmoralize

join:2004-12-17
Nazareth, PA

Big surprise...

I live in an area that was stuck with poor dial up service for a long time. I even got to the point where I wrote a letter to my representative about it because cable companies and Verizon didn't seem interested in ever getting us up to speed.

Sure enough, soon after I contacted my rep. Verizon got their DSL up and running here. Most likely a coincedence, but I figured it couldn't hurt to let the reps know what was going on. It is especially frustrating here in PA because it seems as though companies like Verizon just don't feel like servicing some areas, yet they're hell bent on preventing others from servicing them too.

batterup
I Can Not Tell A Lie.
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ
clubs:

So what's the solution?

Ma Bell is dead and yet the people bitch.

verolom

join:2002-03-23
Eatontown, NJ
·Comcast

Re: So what's the solution?

The problem is not Ma Bell, the problem is there is no Broadband in this country to account for in the first place. The only thing that is beginning to come close is FIOS with 5 Mbps upstream connections. Anything below 10 Mbps in my book is not Broadband.

Bluetick

join:2001-07-25
Altus, OK
clubs:
""Ma Bell is dead and yet the people bitch.""

Ma Bell may have died, but one of her babies has turn into Frankenstein. ATT wields way too much power at the present time. Time to breakup the party at the ATT home office again.

batterup
I Can Not Tell A Lie.
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ
clubs:
·Verizon Online DSL

Re: So what's the solution?

said by Bluetick See Profile :

""Ma Bell is dead and yet the people bitch.""

Ma Bell may have died, but one of her babies has turn into Frankenstein. ATT wields way too much power at the present time. Time to breakup the party at the ATT home office again.
MCI fed the people B.S. and they ate it up. The people gave up regulation for competition and competition never came. Leaches are not competition they are leaches. 100 years ago they realized telephone was a natural monopoly and regulated it as such.

King Ghidora

@qwest.net

Verizon's idea of "not cherry picking"

Way back when I was trying to get Verizon to take people in my area off of what is called a "carrier system" where essentially they double the number of phones on a switch box. The results of the carrier system was that dialup speeds were limited to 9600kbps. I called just about everyone in Ohio that worked for Verizon. Eventually I got the guy over the whole shooting match, the head honcho of Ohio for Verizon himself.

Here's what he told me. Verizon takes money from my area and sends it to places like Florida to build better systems for those guys. So essentially I'm paying for people in Florida to have broadband. What a country.

Eventually we will see the same kind of regulations that forced the telcos to provide phone service to rural areas. But that could take decades to happen. In the meantime satellite is the only option for a reasonable speed. True broadband is out of the question.

On the road I live on there is cable on one end about a quarer of a mile from me and on the other end there's dsl about half a mile from me. And I'll be waiting for 20 years to get either one.
UnbridldRage

join:2005-09-29
Vancouver, WA

Put it on the income tax forms

Maryland just needs to put this question on the state income tax forms, for private individuals.

It'd likely be one of the simpler ones to answer...
WEShep

join:2006-05-03
Woodbury Heights, NJ
·Verizon FIOS
·Verizon Online DSL

Re: Put it on the income tax forms

It's the same in all of the states that have so called Broadband, here in N.J. they are selling me Verizon's wonderful plan that is supposed to be 3000/7xx or what ever it's supposed to be and actually I think, I had better rates with my old 56K modem. That I can go back to and probably will, for $4.95 per month on Peoplespc, or whatever it was. That is alot cheaper than this DSL crap that is as slow as dial-up, at about $35/month.
Shep

jeffhambone
Peace, through superior firepower

join:2002-02-02
Manassas, VA
·Cox HSI
·Comcast

Good idea, except I would suspect the people least likely to currently have broadband are also those least likely to be required to file state income tax returns...leading to accusations of biased data, "redlining", blah, blah...
--
Son, there's only one thing you need to know: HEMI
Laura Unger
Premium
join:2007-02-28
Montclair, NJ

We need a broadband map

Congress already directed the FCC "to determine whether advanced telecommunications capability is being deployed to all Americans in a reasonable and timely fashion" in Section 706 the Telecommunications Act of 1996.They have failed to implement it and now we don't know who has what, where and at what speed. We need a reliable data base at the first step to develop public policy to address broadband deployment. Some communities are already doing it more locally, like ConnectKentucky. There are more ideas on this at »www.speedmatters.org.
bj novack

join:2007-03-22

Re: We need a broadband map

Gee, Laura Unger from Montclair NJ, the Heart of Telecomm Country, when I read at speedmatters.org all about how to get myself better broadband I was surprised to find this neat little oxymoronic phrase on the "principles" page. "The U.S. Must Preserve an Open Internet--
High speed, high capacity networks will eliminate bandwidth scarcity and will promote an open Internet. Consumers are entitled to an open Internet allowing them to go where they want when they want. Nothing should be done to degrade or block access to any websites. Reserving proprietary video bandwidth is essential to finance the build-out of high speed networks."

Reserving proprietary video bandwidth? That to me sounds like "the fast lane" that Ed Whitacre wanted to give us so AT&T could turn the internet into Bud TV and The Home Shopping Network. Oh yeah, real open internet. Uh huh.

Can we say ASTROTURF?
Laura Unger
Premium
join:2007-02-28
Montclair, NJ

Re: We need a broadband map

The "heart of telcom" country? If your point is that some places have more access than others, you're right. I have access to Verizon FIOS and DSL and Comcast and I pay way too much for what I have. The point is that many communities don't have those options; many families can't afford it. The build out is not going to happen by itself. The only way the internet will be be open is if it is fast, everywhere and has much more capacity for growth than we have now. Other countries pay incentives or give tax breaks for build-out. Just today it was announced that in Australia the Labor government has promised to spend $4.7 billion to build what it describes as a national broadband network in concert with the private sector. If you are so worried about an open internet, why don't you worry about how it will get built?

markrwatson07

@worknetinc.com

Please Do Not Ask The Government ...

Fine you want a broadband map- if there is a real market for such data for the purpose you describe, it can be created. Build your own website for the purpose and ask for providers to submit their coverages.

BUT FOR CRYING OUT LOUD... DO NOT ASK THE GOVERNMENT TO DO IT

Besides its like asking FEMA to help Katrina victims, inefficient at its best- it is also giving away too much liberty at its worst.

This is the same reason we should not ask the Government to try and enforce net neutrality- because it can't- and asking it to- gives away too much of our liberty in the process.

The government is only supposed to do the very limited scope of things delineated in the Constitution- and of those, only those it can do well. We should really also think about not letting it have the power to do things it has proved it cannot do.

Meanwhile everything it does outside of its authority in the articles of the Constitution, is usurpation of power- even if we ask for it. Make no mistake- if we ask- it will freely take our liberty and tax us just the same, but it is wrong.

The market will provide whatever services are asked of it through dollars and cents. It is the unseen hand, which guides our economy.

All the problems you have with some businesses- are because the government has created CARTELS. These cartels (such as the Oil and Gas Cartels that create wars in Iraq over oil) are the real problem. People point to greedy corporations. They need to look at the political contributions of those corporations to lobbyists and parties- and see the real problem.

In a truly free market, the government would not interfere with business (no regulation) and it would not steal from businesses and individuals (taxation). Since there would be no government meddling, people would be free to start new companies and provide services, treat employees, and other things the way the market wants- (no unions).

Remember, business serves the free market. Only a government cartel can 'lord it over' individuals, employees, customers, etc. This is why big business likes taxation and regulation- because it makes it harder for smaller competitors to enter the market.
Forums » America Has Absolutely No Idea If Citizens Have Broadband

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