Android Climbs, But iPhone Remains King Latest Admob statistics offer glimpse at smart phone race... Admob has released their latest smart phone and 3G statistics (pdf) which note that Google Android market share continues to grow, gaining one percentage of market share every month this year. Android now accounts for 6 % of all mobile ad requests to Admob, putting them right in line with Palm competitively. The Rim OS and Windows Mobile OS control 22% and 11% of the market respetively, though the Windows Mobile market share is on the decline. Of course the iPhone trumps everyone with 50% market share. An interesting side note: Admob says that 3% of T-Mobile's overall requests come from jailbroken iPhones.
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 | | They'll get a share..... I-Phones a decent phone. But its obtained fashion accessory status. How does Android compete with the catwalk? | |
|  |  NerdtalkerWorking Hard, Or Hardly Working?Premium,MVM
join:2003-02-18
Tucson, AZ | Re: They'll get a share..... Android's hidden recipe for success still hasn't entirely been realized yet, but it will be soon.
iPhone OS is inherently locked to the (relatively expensive) exclusive apple hardware, and only that hardware. This will never change. What Android has going for it is that it will be the everyman's smartphone OS on a relatively modest budget.
Samsung, Motorola, just about every previous-era tier 1 cellular manufacturer, is working on either one or an entire line of Android based phones. The number of devices running this thing is going to balloon in a little bit, and google has the clout to make sure critical apps and functionality are always developed for Android first.
Value, not niche/fashion, will win at the end of the day.
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| |  tiger72SexaT duorPPremium
join:2001-03-28
Saint Louis, MO
kudos:1 | since Android isn't limited to just the G1, there is upcoming hardware that will definitely look prettier and be more attractive to the fashion-conscious. The Magic is a step in that direction. | |
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 SlickEnWPremium
join:2003-01-21
Seattle, WA | Just as I expected Say what you want about Apple, Steve, the iPhone, "Apple Tax" or whatever else, but with this and Apples 1 billionth app store download just happening, its proof that the iPhone is a very capable device and people understand its versatility. | |
| |  BitPremium
join:2009-02-19
00000 | Re: Just as I expected As does Apple's earnings which are amazingly up over last year. | |
| | |  ThrowDemsOutIf you can't convince 'em, confuse 'emPremium
join:2002-03-03
Mullica Hill, NJ
kudos:4 | Re: Just as I expected said by Bit:As does Apple's earnings which are amazingly up over last year. Earnings are up, but Mac sales are down for the 1st time ever. Apple is soaring on iPhone sales right now, but if that slows down along with Mac sales they could be in trouble.
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| | | |  en102Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA | Re: Just as I expected Mac laptops/computers are very expensive, compared to a PC / Linux computer.
Cheapest Apple laptop is ~$1000.
Typical PC based laptop is $500-$750 range, with netbooks down as cheap as $300. | |
| | | | | BitPremium
join:2009-02-19
00000 | Re: Just as I expected Or cheaper if you consider refurbs. I saw Mini 9's in the Dell refurb store earlier today for about $190 with the tiny 4GB SSD. | |
| | | | | | Reviews:
 ·Verizon FiOS
| Re: Just as I expected I just ordered a Mini 9 loaded and it is STILL under $500.
Apple's beautiful Macbook, Macbook Air and Macbook Pro, are form over function (with price a close 2nd). Premium. And higher than last models.
just don't spill a coffee or other liquid on them, k? 
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| | | | | | | BitPremium
join:2009-02-19
00000
2 edits | Re: Just as I expected I disagree completely. Macs are worth every penny IMO. But to each his own. There will be Mac vs PC arguments 'till the end of time just like Ford vs Chevy.
The only reason I got the Mini 9 is because of the ease of dumping Windows and installing OS X on it. | |
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| | | | | | I don't want the typical PC, which is piece of junk that will require replacement in a year or two, if it doesn't break down on its own before then.
You get what you pay for. You want dirt cheap? Have fun with that "computer" of yours. | |
| | | | | | | | Re: Just as I expected said by GilbertMark:I don't want the typical PC, which is piece of junk that will require replacement in a year or two, if it doesn't break down on its own before then. You get what you pay for. You want dirt cheap? Have fun with that "computer" of yours. I build my own state of the art systems for a fraction of what you pay for that Mac. Can you build your own Mac? | |
| | | | | | | gateguyPremium
join:2001-02-12
Reisterstown, MD
1 edit | Re: Just as I expected Assemble | |
| | | | | | | |  cdruGo ColtsPremium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:5 | Re: Just as I expected Semantics. Build or assemble, the argument still holds true. | |
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| | | | | | BitPremium
join:2009-02-19
00000
1 edit | Point is, many have no interest in building their own stuff which is why Dell, HP and Apple sell so many machines. They want to walk into the store, spend some money, and come home with a machine that works for them without a bunch of hassle. As popular as the BYO Pee Cee market is, it's nothing compared to the off the shelf or BTO market. A lot of people are willing occasionally pay extra (given that Macs compare favorably price-wise to similarly configured machines when you consider software and most importantly the form factor) to have a local point of support (the Apple store) and software that in a lot of people's opinion has superior interoperability, reliability and frankly is easier to use. | |
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| | | | | | | I built my PC with quality parts back in 2005 & it's still running strong. I have done some upgrades (RAM/HD/Video). I am sure you will see a lot more broken down PC's b/c they sell 10/1 over Mac. I know macs break too, as a buddy of mine just had to have his m/b replace in his 1 year old laptop. It happens when everything is made in China  | |
| | | | | |  MattAll noise, no signal.Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
kudos:12 | said by GilbertMark:I don't want the typical PC, which is piece of junk that will require replacement in a year or two, if it doesn't break down on its own before then. You get what you pay for. You want dirt cheap? Have fun with that "computer" of yours. You do realize your Mac has the same components and is made by the same factory in China right? You're paying for a name and cheap to implement (but innovative) features like magnetic power connections or whatever they are.
Other than that, it has the same CPU, same RAM, same chipset, same hard drive, same video card ... everything. | |
| | | | | | | BitPremium
join:2009-02-19
00000
4 edits | Re: Just as I expected Some would say you're paying for superior software, superior design and better/friendlier customer service. I have one of Dell's brand new Studio XPS 1640's and the fit-finish is absolutely horrible, way worse than any unibody MacBook Pro and far worse than my Lenovo X200T. Of course is was about 2/3 the cost of the MacBook Pro so I expect it to be crappier. So sure, it has the same 2.8GHz C2D, DDR3 and same tier graphics (HD3670 vs NVidia m9600), but the similarities in build end there. It takes more than parts to make a decent machine. They have to be assembled well, use quality components (eg good chassis, glass over plexi) and run compelling software. | |
| | | | | | | | MattAll noise, no signal.Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
kudos:12 | Re: Just as I expected said by Bit:Some would say you're paying for superior software, superior design and better/friendlier customer service. I have one of Dell's brand new Studio XPS 1640's and the fit-finish is absolutely horrible, way worse than any MacBook Pro and far worse than my Lenovo X200T. Of course is was about 2/3 the cost of the MacBook Pro so I expect it to be crappier. So sure, it has the same 2.8GHz C2D, DDR3 and Radeon graphics, but the similarities in build end there. The studio line is cheap. The "presentation" of the Mac and the customer support (that I have experienced with my iPhone) is in fact top notch. However, you can purchase the same level of customer service if you so desire from Dell. And I urge you to take a look at the XPS line from Dell. The M1330 is an absolutely gorgeous piece of hardware, rivaling and surpassing anything I've seen in a 13" form factor from Apple.
I think what most Mac owners don't get is that as of Windows XP SP2 (minus Vista, but Win 7 is phenomenal), there is nothing compelling in OS X. Yes, I have a Mac Mini so I'm not speaking from ignorance. OS X was so much better than Windows when it came out, but it is stagnant. Windows quickly improved and closed the gap and unless Apple does something else ground breaking, OS X will start slowly losing market share again as has been evidenced by the decline in Macbook and desktop Mac sales, whereas others (HP and Dell) are accelerating. You'll always have a contingent of faithful buyers and you'll also have people who get so frustrated with Windows they shun it forever. But there are also people who use Linux on their desktop for God's sake ... that is a lesson in torture worthy of waterboarding.
Anyway, my point is, things have progressed to the point where a $500 Dell is just as capable as a $1299 Macbook. Sure the Mac may "look" prettier, but most people simply don't care. They want a functional device, not a fashion accessory and want to pay the least amount possible for it. Those who want to justify their purchase by clinging to old "PC's are cheap and unreliable" or believe the PC vs Mac commercials, well, people also believe the Mason's run the world. To each is own, but it's not exactly reality. | |
| | | | | | | | | BitPremium
join:2009-02-19
00000
1 edit | Re: Just as I expected My machine is a Studio XPS 16 so I don't know how much more upscale other XPS machines get. As for Dell support, I did purchase upgraded support from Dell Business for my servers and the support is horrible with long on hold times, endless having to go through hoops of tier 1 support and when they finally send out people they never have the correct parts.
And I couldn't disagree more with Windows vs OS X. I use both daily, both in business and at home and aside from CAD and Games, Windows XP and Vista are horrible...slow in operation, horrible ergonomics and very long boot and shutdown times. And they are unstable even in factory condition. It's a horrible cliche' but for me, OS X has always just worked. Windows 7 is a huge improvement but I don't consider it surpassing Snow Leopard in usability or speed, not anywhere close.
Aside from my Mini 9, I don't buy "cheap" Pee Cees. My Lenovo tablet was nearly $3K, my Studio XPS 1640 nearly $2K and my servers $4K each and none are stellar.
These types of discussions usually go no where. Everyone has their preference. As I mentioned, I use both every day and IMO, Apple's products are simply superior in build quality and operation, their service top notch and thus usually worth the extra money. But what I find is when you compare LIKE products in terms of same hardware AND form factor AND software suite, the price isn't that much different. | |
| | | | | | | | | | MattAll noise, no signal.Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
kudos:12 | Re: Just as I expected I won't argue because again, we have all Dell servers and the support has been stunning. We always purchase Silver or Gold level though. I have sent letters to support agents managers because they were so great. I had a drive fail at 2AM and they had a new drive onsite by 5AM. I couldn't ask for anything better.
And the pure XPS line is much better than the studio XPS line. Studio = budget.
And I agree with your last statement, these disagreements never go anywhere. I actually almost posted two links straight form the stock configuration comparing an XPS M1330 ($899) to the Macbook ($1299) just to illustrate that the only thing the Mac had better was a 9400M vs an 8600M, whereas the Dell had a faster processor, more RAM, and over twice the hard drive because I knew you're parrot out the "when you compare equal spec machines ..." but decided not to. | |
| | | | | | | | | | BitPremium
join:2009-02-19
00000
4 edits | Re: Just as I expected In my experience Vista requires heftier hardware than OS X so in terms of speed it's like comparing horsepower. If you have a light car you are lightning fast with less horsepower than a really heavy car with a bit more power. It's like comparing processors by strictly GHz and nothing else. But I digress.
As far as Studio XPS, they're certainly priced higher than the XPS-M machines they're replacing and they're Dell's latest DDR3 powered notebooks. What do you consider a "pure" XPS machine? The Studio XPS offers some of the fastest processors, graphics and RAM in their mobile line up. Only their foot thick M17xx offer remotely comparable performance (with SLI graphics) but they're hardly a real portable.
My impression is they added the Studio name as part of the aesthetic redesign (the leather, backlit keyboard, revised trackpad, etc). I think the XPS Ms are going away and Dell will be left with Inspiron, Studio and Studio XPS as their consumer notebook brands.
»www.dell.com/home/laptops#subcat···avla=&a= | |
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| | | | | | | | | said by Bit: I have one of Dell's brand new Studio XPS 1640's and the fit-finish is absolutely horrible, way worse than any unibody MacBook Pro and far worse than my Lenovo X200T. A dell is the basis for your dicontent?
Thats like buying a Yugo and say all cars are terrible! | |
| | | | | | | | | BitPremium
join:2009-02-19
00000
4 edits | Re: Just as I expected Not "A" Dell, a number of machines over the years including Toshiba, Lenovo, Dell (both workstations and sub $5K servers), HP, Compaq (when they weren't merged), Gateway, Asus...all were nothing to write home about. In my home and small business I have purchased dozens and dozens of servers and clients over the years, currently running about 30 Pee Cees and Macs. Of all of those brands, Toshiba and Lenovo (and IBM before them) were the only "Pee Cees" I would consider "good". The rest were garbage. And my Toshiba and Lenovos cost as much or more than a comparable Macintosh did/do. The only decent high end (or what was high end) Dell machine I have (in terms of reliability) is an Inspiron 9100 with a P4 EE 3.4 and it was nearly $4K new, certainly as much as any Powerbook.
I would agree with you if it were just 1 Dell that is thrown together like ass. But when you have a large percentage coming in (of various brands) with poor assembly quality, then later have hardware and/or software issues like dying power supplies you start to see a pattern. And for me it didn't matter how much I spent as I have the biggest problems with the most expensive machines. Meanwhile my army of G4 Mac Mini clients and eMac running OS X server run day and night without end, not a crash, not a kernel panic, nothin. They only reboot when an update comes down forcing a reboot or the power goes out. I'm sure there are people with Pee Cees with the same luck but I'm not one of 'em. My Dell servers, especially those running 2K3SBS require weekly restarts as they magically start refusing to authenticate clients and Dell support has no answers as to why.
Having a large number of Pee Cees and Macs and having to pay to support them I just see why some people would willingly pony up $1500 for a 24" iMac or MacBook or $2-$3K on a MacBook Pro or Mac Pro. I see them as a good buy even thought I might find a machine with the same processor cheaper elsewhere. To me there is much much more to a machine than what processor and graphics adapter are in it.
There are also a lot of people here that like tinkering with their machines or don't mind doing the necessary tweaks to get them running smoothly. I'm not one of those people any more. It was a great hobby in the early 80's into the 90's but now I just want a machine that I can take out of the box, install my software and have it just do it's job without endless hassle. I have more important things to do. I want to work WITH my machines, not work ON them. | |
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| | | BitPremium
join:2009-02-19
00000 | With $21B in the bank, things would have to be bad for a loooooong time before they're in any trouble. | |
| | | |  Count ZeroMD2BePremium
join:2007-01-18
Warner Robins, GA | said by ThrowDemsOut:said by Bit:As does Apple's earnings which are amazingly up over last year. Earnings are up, but Mac sales are down for the 1st time ever. Apple is soaring on iPhone sales right now, but if that slows down along with Mac sales they could be in trouble. Mac sales are down slightly, but their ASP is still high, that's why they'll weather this storm as well as (or better than) anyone else. And the iPhone is quite a versatile platform for those of us in the medical profession - the only reason I carry my old palm pilot around is for a single (yet important) program MData - but it appears an iPhone version is in the works so I may be putting the palm pilot up on eBay in the not too distant future and only carrying one PDA for everything from then on out. | |
| | | |  jsz0Premium
join:2008-01-23
Jewett City, CT | In trouble how? Computers are making up an ever decreasing part of Apple's revenue even when they were selling more units than ever. Apple could cease selling computers entirely and still be a very profitable company. They were very wise to see that mobiles are the future. | |
| | | | MattAll noise, no signal.Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
kudos:12 | said by ThrowDemsOut:said by Bit:As does Apple's earnings which are amazingly up over last year. Earnings are up, but Mac sales are down for the 1st time ever. Apple is soaring on iPhone sales right now, but if that slows down along with Mac sales they could be in trouble. And the new shuffle design with the controls integrated into the headphones won't help those sell either. I need a new shuffle and I'm going to look somewhere else because I HAVE to use different headphones.
I'd love to have a Mac, but I can't justify $1299+ when I can get a Dell for $899 or $999 that is just as (if not more) capable. | |
| | | | | | | Re: Just as I expected You buy your Dell and I'll build the same computer for less than what you're going to spend. I can aslo buy a Mac Clone Desktop for $599 | |
| | | | | | BitPremium
join:2009-02-19
00000
4 edits | Re: Just as I expected Good for you, here's a cookie. Meanwhile with Dell shipping 2.5GHz/3GB/500GB Pent dual-core machines for $349 including 1 year in home service and the Windows license, I doubt it. The unsupported OEM license alone is $100 and then you still are left to put it together. Even their sub $1K i7-920 deals are difficult to duplicate without cutting corners like going with a crap chassis.
The only benefit to BYO is you get to choose the exact parts you want in the form factor you want. Rarely if ever can you BYO cheaper than an OEM like Dell or HP can. | |
| | | | | | | Reviews:
 ·WOW Internet and..
·Time Warner Cable
| Re: Just as I expected it is possible. Have you ever heard wholesale companies? That only sell to OEMs? Where you can get a 1TB HDD for $250? I doubt it.
OEM licenses are also only $50 with the company. Just because the retail prices are higher don't except EVERYONE pays that.
Plus who wants a paperweight from dell? when you get the POS you have to reformat it to take their shit off. Like their "remote desktop" client. Who wants to their OEM to have access anytime they want to their computer? I don't. | |
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| | ThrowDemsOutIf you can't convince 'em, confuse 'emPremium
join:2002-03-03
Mullica Hill, NJ
kudos:4 | Re: Apple remains relevant said by El Quintron:Say what you will about Apple, they make powerful technology that's easy to use. A good looking phone that can do lots of stuff. People can and will pay good money for that. It works great for internet and texting. But as a regular voice cellphone, the people I know that have one say it is so-so.
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| | | Reviews:
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| Re: Apple remains relevant I support about 60 iphones for various clients in corporate environments, and they all say that "it's awesome for everything, except being a phone." Most people that went from Blackberries or Windows Mobile to the Iphone say they feel like then went from a business tool to a toy. | |
| | | | | | Re: Apple remains relevant ditto in our industry as well. We moved dozens of users to iphones a bit ago, and after a week they all moved back to blackberry's. The 8900 and the Bold are corporate workhorses (storm not so much) | |
| | | | | | said by nnaarrnn:I support about 60 iphones for various clients in corporate environments, and they all say that "it's awesome for everything, except being a phone." Most people that went from Blackberries or Windows Mobile to the Iphone say they feel like then went from a business tool to a toy.
That's surprising. I have Windows Mobile and it's sucks. Its best feature is tethering is made easy. | |
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rmdir
join:2003-03-13
Chicago, IL | volume isn't everything Chevy sells more Impalas than Mercedes sells S600's. Does this mean the Impala is better, just because people buy more of them? | |
| | KearnstdElf WizardPremium
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ | Re: volume isn't everything as a family car id say yes. cheaper, likely just as safe, the 3800 series II gets better economy then the V8 Merc.
people who buy an S600 are seeking status and luxury, people who buy an impala are seeking a car that doesnt cost too much but gets the job done well and is dependable.
i guess not too indifferent then the iPhone vs Blackberry. the iPhone is that Mercedes, its well made and really nice. but for the typical businessman they simply want a workhorse that gets them what they need.
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| | cdruGo ColtsPremium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:5 Reviews:
·Frontier FiOS
| said by rmdir:Chevy sells more Impalas than Mercedes sells S600's. Does this mean the Impala is better, just because people buy more of them? Depends on what the intended purpose is, and how you want to define "better".
The Impala is cheaper, more readily available, and easier to find someone qualified to service the vehicle. The Mercedes is more refined and comfortable, but costs more, harder to find, and more expensive to repair.
If you are looking at it purely as a method to get you from point A to point B in a given period of time, their basic functionality is the same with price being the difference. So the Impala wins out because it's more affordable. But the Mercedes wins out once you consider the "user experience" factor as much more consideration was given to the comfort of the passenger. | |
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NeosumPremium
join:2000-06-03
Oakland, CA Reviews:
 ·Pacific Bell - SBC
| testimonial from iphone user Macs were the first computers I owned. From the Apple IIe to the last Mac I purchased, the PowerPC 6200 for about $2500 at the time. Since then, I've been building my own windows based computers and haven't gone back to apple simply because it's expensive and I can't justify spending that much money for a pc.
As for the iPhone, I've had it since it first came out. I purchased the iPhone 3g last summer for the full retail price and am now eligible to upgrade to the new iPhone this summer. I'm definitely going for it.
I've noticed all of the complaints about the iPhone including signal problems and call drops, etc, etc..., the list goes on. As a technical person who's been using iPhones for a long time, I have no complaints about it. It's the best device I've used and will continue to use it. My only complaint isn't with apple or the iphone, but with the total costs involved with ATT's prices which are ridicuously high.
For me, and many others who do not lurk the internet forums, the iPhone has done what I wanted it to do. Calls are great, internet is great and it's easy to use. I knew what this phone could do and I knew what I was buying. I'm a very satisfied customer of the iPhone.
I get people (including friends) who put down the iPhone when they see me using it saying how it "sucks", battery life sucks, etc. I sat at a restuarant with a friend of mine with a Blackberry Curve, both us of with ATT. He lost his connection completely, and I had 3 bars of 3g. So I turned to him and said "I thought the iPhone reception sucks?" He just laughed and had no reply.
It doesn't bother me. I'm satisfied and that's all that matters. If other people prefer other phones, I don't feel the need to put them down. It's their choice. Bottomline, it's about having something we want and if it puts a smile on our face, then who's to tell us otherwise? | |
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 atuarreHere come the drumsPremium
join:2004-02-14
College Station, TX | RE I always find it fascinating how the first competitor iPhone users target is Research in Motion and their Blackberry device. Comparing these devices are like Apple's and Orange's. The Blackberry was first created to target business users and it now focusing on also getting regular consumers as well.
We all know Apple and their computers are overpriced. Some people use the excuse that "Macs just work" out of the box. That argument is absurd. PC's work right out of the box as well. Apple is more about the look of the case rather than anything else, and that in part goes to the cost of the computer. I do not see how anyone, in this economy, can justify the expense. Some will though. They cannot pay their bills, but they can manage to pay Apple for an overpriced piece of junk.
The iPhone is built on hype. Everyone who rushed to get one, myself included got it, and then the hype faded, and we were stuck with a device that really is worthless. Someone made a remark about AT&T pricing. AT&T has to pay Apple not only for the cost of the devices, which they subsidize in exchange for a two year contract, but Apple also gets a percentage of the wireless revenue. Before you go blaming AT&T, why do you not go blame Apple? Their greed is what is creating the increase in pricing. You saw what the outcome was when they went to Verizon with that ridiculous idea of getting a percentage of the revenue. Verizon balked.
There will also be those people that claim that the 3G issues are AT&T related and not Apple related, but I must say that my Bold never has an issue with connectivity, but my iPhone 3G always has issues. If I am not at home (where I have to use Wifi to get anything done with my iPhone) then my device is utterly useless. My Blackberry never has an issue.
Apple has got the iPhone users hooked, and their too foolish to realize this. Apple creates a very large quantity of iPhone's but they create shortages to trump up demand. Their stores get the bulk of the inventory while they trickle out the remainder to the AT&T stores. Sony tried the same crap with the PS/3 and it ended up biting them in the ass.
The iPhone is just a passing fad, and I feel that when more Android devices are available and more users are able to see what it can do, the interest in the iPhone will wane. | |
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| | | | | rmdir
join:2003-03-13
Chicago, IL | Re: All things considered And if you have the my faves plan, set Google Voice as a favorite and have people call that number and it won't count against your minutes. You have to set caller id to off on the GV account for incoming calls, or their number shows up instead of the GV number and that would count against your minutes.
I had a G1 which I returned, and am holding out for a thinner Android phone with more RAM and a better battery life. | |
| | | | Reviews:
·Comcast
·T-Mobile US
·AT&T U-Verse
 ·Vonage
| Re: All things considered said by rmdir:And if you have the my faves plan, set Google Voice as a favorite and have people call that number and it won't count against your minutes. You have to set caller id to off on the GV account for incoming calls, or their number shows up instead of the GV number and that would count against your minutes. I had a G1 which I returned, and am holding out for a thinner Android phone with more RAM and a better battery life. exactly. i did that when i had my faves. which i dropped because I was using so few minutes. | |
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 MPScanPremium
join:2001-08-24
Boston, MA | Market Share? No. These numbers can't be used to determine "market share".
The RIM OS numbers are skewed.
The stats/study is based on mobile ads served up through web browsing. iPhone users, which are almost exclusively general consumers, tend to browse the web on their phone more than BlackBerry users.
BlackBerry/RIM users, typically professional/business oriented, generally use their devices for work functions which do not include visiting sites on their device that serve up mobile ads.
For example, my company has 800 BlackBerry devices in the hands of employees, and based on experience, I would say that only a small handful have ever used the device to browse the web...
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The Government(tm): Just when you though the problem was bad, wait until you see how we fuck up the solution. | |
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