rradina join:2000-08-08 Chesterfield, MO |
Negative press? What About Liability?How does the ISP distinguish a casual "browser" HTTP request and a life-saving device (think Negroponte on Neutrality) that uses HTTP to communicate a SOAP-encoded or JSON-encoded message to a monitoring system?
What if the ISP cuts someone off because DHCP/MAC address information/logs are incorrect? | |
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Re: Negative press? What About Liability?would such tactics even be legal? Sounds like extortion to me. | |
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| | SunnyD join:2009-03-20 Madison, AL |
SunnyD
Member
2014-Aug-18 9:17 am
Re: Negative press? What About Liability?Extortion, wiretap, various malware laws, etc. Are they going to be getting rubber-stamp legislation for this to happen or are they going to be buying warrants? | |
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to sad guy
said by sad guy:would such tactics even be legal? Sounds like extortion to me. That's what I'm thinking. Somebody is going to get sued, and you know that the ISP's lawyers are aware of this. This is a legal disaster waiting to happen. | |
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| | Time Premium Member join:2003-07-05 Irvine, CA |
to sad guy
I suspect that this company will be targeted by hackers if this ever comes to fruition, and probably those capable of far worse than a simple DoS. | |
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| | Ubee E31U2V1 (Software) pfSense Netgear WNR3500L
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to sad guy
you signed a ToS with your ISP that allows them to do just that if they so choose to(up to and including account termination). Go read your ToS for once and stop this bullshit, you already agreed to them performing "network management" in the broadest sense, so you have ZERO right to bitch. | |
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BigDeal
Anon
2014-Aug-18 12:54 pm
Re: Negative press? What About Liability?Or, the customer terminates their own contract (aka, cancels service). I have 3 ISP's to pick from. Not loyal to ANY. | |
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Re: Negative press? What About Liability?said by BigDeal :Or, the customer terminates their own contract (aka, cancels service). I have 3 ISP's to pick from. Not loyal to ANY. What makes you think the other two will not include the same language in their TOS? | |
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to BigDeal
If all ISPs do this, then those 3 choices won't matter at all.
Also, I wonder if it will be mandated (either by law, or tax penalty) that all ISPs be mandated to start doing this. | |
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| | | NormanSI gave her time to steal my mind away MVM join:2001-02-14 San Jose, CA TP-Link TD-8616 Asus RT-AC66U B1 Netgear FR114P
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to Chubbysumo
said by Chubbysumo:you signed a ToS with your ISP that allows them to do just that if they so choose to(up to and including account termination). The remediation section of my ISP AUP does not seem to cover "redirection until fee is paid". I suppose the "warning" could be broadly interpreted to mean something like that, but my ISP, on advice of legal counsel (so they claim) does not retain logs beyond, I believe, two weeks. | |
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Re: Negative press? What About Liability?The default position of ISPs that process warning requests resulting in browser redirection is you are guilty until proven otherwise, that they don't do investigative work to pair IP logs with sites.
Generally you get cut off and they may send an email to you (which is laughable if you have no broadband to receive it) then you have to contact them to restore service. Where the logs come in is if it escalated into a John Doe discovery request for a court proceeding. | |
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1 recommendation |
anon_dcap088
Anon
2014-Aug-18 9:05 am
This is an easy one to fix..."Hello Comcast, I am calling to cancel my internet access since you are redirecting my browser and making my connection unusable. I don't know anything about any copyright violation and I am not paying some random company $20.00 to settle something I didn't do"
Once the first person calls and cancels, the ISP's will back out of this scheme quickly. | |
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4 recommendations |
Re: This is an easy one to fix...If you're able to actually GET comcast to cancel your service, that is... | |
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to anon_dcap088
The first person called and canceled years ago. The $20 penalty is the only new wrinkle. The thing is, the ISP doesn't have any interest in it, to spend the time (money) processing requests for someone else to get paid and deactivating account access while simultaneously alienating customers, THEN also having to spend the time (more money) either cancelling the account (less money) or restoring service to the account.
It might be different if the fine was $200 and split with half going to the ISP but I doubt that would stand up in court. | |
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No problemJust use a Linux flavor. Hijacks are a thing of the past. By the way our walled garden prevents mobware from even getting to your computer! | |
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| maartenaElmo Premium Member join:2002-05-10 Orange, CA |
maartena
Premium Member
2014-Aug-18 10:16 am
Re: No problemsaid by Yucca Servic:Just use a Linux flavor. Hijacks are a thing of the past. By the way our walled garden prevents mobware from even getting to your computer! They are actually not talking about malware, but about an ISP-side block of web browsing, similar to what hotels etc do to make their customers pay for a day of internet access. (which is actually mentioned as an example). Linux or any other OS would not be excluded from that. You can still get around that however by using a VPN. | |
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| | Ubee E31U2V1 (Software) pfSense Netgear WNR3500L
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Re: No problemno, a VPN would likely not work because your ISP would intercept any attempt to connect and redirect it to a "pay up to browse" page. Charter has already shown me they can do more than DNS redirects and actually intercept any web request and send back a "pay your bill" page instead(which stopped ALL my traffic until I called and complained, and its not even fucking late). Just because you change your DNS servers and such, the request still runs over your ISPs network, which means they can filter your connection to only go to 1 page, regardless of what you request or do. | |
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| Nanaki (banned)aka novaflare. pull punches? Na join:2002-01-24 Akron, OH |
to Yucca Servic
You can not stop this on your computer by using a dif os.it is done on the isp servers.you canmaybe by pass it with a prozy unless like att who does similar with their modem.in that case forget it you can not bypass at all. | |
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tpkatl join:2009-11-16 Dacula, GA |
tpkatl
Member
2014-Aug-18 9:18 am
What about due process?This sounds a lot to me like a horrifically one-sided extortion scheme.
Incredibly bad idea, and as others have said, it's going to bounce bank on the blackmailers. | |
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IowaCowboyLost in the Supermarket Premium Member join:2010-10-16 Springfield, MA |
Just clean out the systemUnless they're doing it at the ISP level, just do a clean install of your operating system.
Or better yet, get your content from legal sources. I buy all my music from iTunes and I have yet to receive a copyright notice (knock wood). | |
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Re: Just clean out the systemJust change the MAC address of your router and reboot the cable modem, new IP end of story. This is about your connection, not your PC device. | |
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Wilsdom
Member
2014-Aug-18 10:28 am
Re: Just clean out the systemThere is no way to dodge your ISP if they are part of a scheme to block your access | |
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to Quattrohead
Absolutely won't work. Your router can have any MAC, it's the MAC of the modem that gives you a particular level of access or lack thereof. Different modem MAC = NO access without them doing anything to comply, is already how it is set up. | |
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| rradina join:2000-08-08 Chesterfield, MO |
to IowaCowboy
They'll do this like hotels do...no connection until you visit the nag page and enter your room code, credit card and whatever else they want. Most hotels will only let you get to their hotel web site and even that may only half work if it has to include script files from cache sites. | |
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maartenaElmo Premium Member join:2002-05-10 Orange, CA |
maartena
Premium Member
2014-Aug-18 10:33 am
Backfire...Something like this is really going to backfire. It goes back to the open access point and/or easily hacked access point problem. I just was at a clients house to re-do her laptop, and noticed her wireless network was unsecured. Not only that, FOUR networks in the same street were unsecured. One has to say that this particular street - including her - is mostly elderly people and original owners that bought the house in the 60s and still live there. But their back yards are bordered by several apartment buildings. Apartment buildings that could quite easily pick up her signal. I did secure her network, but didn't secure the other 4 unsecured networks I found.
And sure, you know where I am going with this: As soon as the media gets wind that an ISP is bullying some elderly lady that can't play scrabble on Facebook with her friends because of alleged piracy, it isn't going to create the kind of PR an ISP is waiting for.
The lawsuits that have happened in the past have backfired in big ways. They have largely simmered down now, because of bad press. The wellfare mother with 2 children living on the brink of financial ruin that downloaded just 1 kids movie because she didn't have the money to take them to the movies (okay, she broke the law but going after her wasn't good press), the elderly woman that had an access point that was unsecured, etc, etc.... The RCAA/PMAA may have gotten unlucky, but there were a few lawsuits that were so damaging that they were seen as bullies, not as copyright enforcers.
They still aren't seeing the obvious solution. It worked for iTunes, and it can work for movies: Make them accessible so they can be played on a variety of devices, make them affordable. You can't beat them, so join them! Things like netflix makes things easier too: If i wanted to see a movie 3 years ago, I would go "i'll go and download that"... now, I go "lets see if it is on netflix".
Make legal viewing of movies easier and affordable, and you will cut down a lot on piracy. Make cable and satellite DVR's capable of exporting recordings. No one was complaining if you borrowed your friend's taped recording of a show you forgot to record on your 1980s VCR..... why should that be a problem if the media changed to say a USB stick? Right now, if people forget to record their show there is still a big chance you will have to wait till it airs again, as not everything is on demand or on hulu, etc. With DVR's riddled with encryption and DRM's, no wonder people turn to piracy to download TV shows. Hulu will force you to watch commercials, and some on-demand systems do the same.
If you can simply give a recording of a show to your friend, just like you could when you lend him the tape in the 1980s, no one is going to get screwed. It isn't on DVD yet anyways, so no sales are lost. | |
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| TechyDad Premium Member join:2001-07-13 USA |
TechyDad
Premium Member
2014-Aug-18 11:28 am
Re: Backfire...said by maartena:They still aren't seeing the obvious solution. It worked for iTunes, and it can work for movies: Make them accessible so they can be played on a variety of devices, make them affordable. You can't beat them, so join them! Things like netflix makes things easier too: If i wanted to see a movie 3 years ago, I would go "i'll go and download that"... now, I go "lets see if it is on netflix". Sadly, the content owners look to Netflix and see a threat. They think that Netflix will devastate their DVD sales. Yes, Netflix might negatively impact DVD sales of some titles, but it can increase revenue for back catalog titles that wouldn't sell many DVDs anyway. In addition, as you pointed out, Netflix helps reduce piracy. It's easier to sign up for Netflix and get a guaranteed clean stream than it is to pirate a title (and deal with bad captures, possible malware, copyright violation letters, etc). If I could force the content owners to act, I'd tell them that any movie/TV show over 5 years old should be released to Netflix. (Obviously, Netflix would need to stagger the releases lest they overwhelm the system with too much content right away.) More recent material would be released on DVD/Blu-Ray and then, two months later, be released to Netflix. This would make the movie release schedule: Theaters -> DVD/Blu-Ray -> Netflix -> Cable TV. This would allow the content owners to get their disc sales without Netflix and then let the Netflix users get access to the content without having to wait years. Sadly, I have no such power so we need to wait until the content owners realize that Netflix is an ally and not an enemy. | |
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| | KearnstdSpace Elf Premium Member join:2002-01-22 Mullica Hill, NJ |
Kearnstd
Premium Member
2014-Aug-18 12:34 pm
Re: Backfire...hell you see premium cable channels not wanting to deal with Netflix because they claim its price makes their brand look cheapened if their content is on the service and causes it to lose a premium image. "premium image" is I think the language Cinemax used once. | |
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Re: Backfire...just maybe those premium cable channels and those that carry them are making that last grab for cash. i know i'm ditching sat. as soon as i can get more than 6Mbps | |
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Re: Backfire...The backfire might be unable to access 911 emergency services. Block email or messaging services is deadly! | |
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| | | | | WhatNow Premium Member join:2009-05-06 Charlotte, NC |
WhatNow
Premium Member
2014-Aug-18 7:16 pm
Re: Backfire...My response if this hit the internet would be to write my Congress Reps and say make this stop or I will vote for the other guy in the next election. I don't know of a reason I would get hit by this but there may be the rare case like the poor lady with the kids. | |
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to maartena
Along those same lines, I for one am disappointed that Amazon didn't make the big push for DRM-free movie and video downloads back when they first started offering them.
They took a chance and were influential in getting DRM-free MP3 downloads, and now that's standard across pretty much all major music providers. | |
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| | KearnstdSpace Elf Premium Member join:2002-01-22 Mullica Hill, NJ |
Kearnstd
Premium Member
2014-Aug-18 5:31 pm
Re: Backfire...Hollywood is notoriously stubborn when it comes to going DRM free. | |
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cowboySo Much For Subtlety Premium Member join:2000-03-14 La Grange, KY 1 edit |
cowboy
Premium Member
2014-Aug-18 11:42 am
This will (likely) be trivial to avoid or bypassThe easiest way for this to happen is for the ISP to give your modem a b0rked DNS server.
Most routers and all OS (even Windows) allow for overriding the DNS server - to say Google/OpenDNS/etc.
I am not one to be bit by this, but do run my own caching DNS server - so would not notice at all.
Yes, they can do this other ways, but the cost would be much higher
Update: I recall other captive portals actually having working DNS, but a default route to a proxy server. On the portals, one could often do IP over DNS, albeit at non-optimal speeds. | |
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NO to ESPN
Anon
2014-Aug-18 11:47 am
RICO LawsWonder how the organized crime laws will be used to clean up this mess. A non-court certified person comes to someone and demands money. Sounds like organized crime to me. Likely there will be another criminal group that will offer their services for a price to deal with the first.
Wanna buy some insurance? | |
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Mr_Anon_Name
Anon
2014-Aug-18 2:38 pm
Browser Hijacks won't workThere's no way in hell that Browser makers will allow commercial hijacks. Especially from copyright trolls. | |
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el_huason
Anon
2014-Aug-18 10:04 pm
Again?Anti-Piracy firms and the entertainment industry must enjoy painting bull's eyes in their backs, probably gluttons for punishment (maybe even insano-masochists >:p). Fine by me anyway - if my ISP does this I'll just drop them like a bad habit and go back to Sneakernet for good "Only two kinds of human beings can be trusted - dead and extinct. All others must be avoided at all costs" me. | |
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BHO objects?That's fine if they do that, I will sandbox my browser. I am done with the net, I close down and everything goes back to first install/setup. | |
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Common Sense
Anon
2014-Aug-22 6:17 am
Anti-Piracy Firm Eyes Browser Hijacks Until Fines are PaidOkay so their troll law suits didn't work; the extortion racket "fines" from letters isn't working; so this is supposed to work? B.S. IF the alleged "copyright Holder"; the lawful legitimate one making a complaint had better have hard evidence; say a file they downloaded from the ISP's client NOT JUST AN I.P. address before this is done. Because IF they do not; guess who is going to win millions in a law suit...NOT the MPAA or RIAA or law Co. Trolls... A final point is if THEY HAVE THE the "TRUE I.D." OF THE ISP's client .. THEN WHY THEN NOT SUE THEM?? I can guess why, cheaper.. | |
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Inaccurate ArticlePEOPLE! The article author (or person the info was obtained from) doesn't understand the technical issues of what they want to have happen. Since someone is wrong I don't really understand myself what they intend vs the reality but here goes:
This has absolutely nothing to do with the browser or OS. It's an ISP filter that redirects requests to a walled garden destination web server with whatever message they chose to put on the page.
You modem will only be able to access that page and no other modem or MAC address for it will work because service is tied to MAC and to change MAC by contacting the ISP "should" cause a denial due to the account being flagged. | |
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