Ask DSLReports.com: Will ISPs Bill By The Byte?( old news - 06:16PM Wednesday Oct 17 2007) tags: prices · business · bandwidth · BBR-NewsA few weeks ago we asked you to throw your questions our direction, and we'd try to get the most popular questions answered by ISP representatives. We recently spoke to AT&T concerning U-Verse IPTV service deployment in BellSouth territory; Speakeasy on why the company has changed its focus from residential customers to small businesses; and Comcast about why 16Mbps is only available in select areas. Another big question was whether providers would be shifting from the industry's current flat-rate tiered pricing model to a system where consumers could be billed-by-the-byte. We spoke with a handful of ISPs and analysts about whether providers plan to make this migration any time soon. March of the Bandwidth HogsThe over-subscription model the broadband industry is built on doesn't take kindly to the power user, who makes up a small percentage of an ISP's user base but consumes the majority of its bandwidth. Like gluttons at an all you can eat buffet, these users flock to the advertised promise of unlimited bandwidth, stuffing their hungry maws with porn, DVD rips and all the ABBA discographies they can consume. ISPs, who have increasingly struggled with these users, first stopped advertising their services as unlimited (if they were smart). They then began implementing increasingly more sophisticated traffic shaping measures that range from the use of often murky caps, to hardware that sends forged RST packets in order to slow BitTorrent transfers. Comcast, when they admit these systems exist at all, insists their invisible caps only affect a minuscule portion of their userbase. Satellite provider HughesNet also insists that their FAP ( "Fair Access Policy") only has an impact on a "small percentage of subscribers." Cable operator Insight says they only take action in "exceptional cases of sustained usage at very high rates for long periods of time."But what happens when video services turn everyone into a bandwidth hog? In addition to a flood of legitimate and pirated content for download, there looms services like DirecTV's upcoming broadband VOD system that allows users to hook their broadband connection up to their DVR to download high-definition content. Some industry bean counters would like to see the pricing model change before these services take off, so they can grab additional profit from the growth in high-consumption customers. Mark Daniels, a VP at the CTIA (a wireless carrier trade group) recently proclaimed that flat-rate pricing was a broadband industry menace, quickly solved by the migration to a bill-by-the-byte system: "The problem for Comcast, as with other wireline and wireless ISPs, is how they have priced their good. Flat-rate pricing for Internet access and bandwidth use might have had its place during the development of the Internet, but as we move into the phase of ubiquitous access, and wide disparities of usage and file size develop, particularly on the more scarce wireless bandwidth side, long-term economic network viability and fairness demand that people pay for the bandwidth they consume." But is the industry really planning such a change? Will consumers tolerate it? Billing By the Byte"I think there's a couple of problems with the straight out bill-by-the-byte model," Jupiter Research analyst Doug Williams tells us. The first being that customers, who are used to flat-rate pricing in many sectors, just don't want it. The second, he suggests, is the trouble of providing consumers with an effective tool to track their usage. That's already been a problem for customers of companies with caps, who complain they aren't properly warned when they get close to their consumption ceiling. There's also the fact that such a system could be confusing for consumers used to a flat-rate pricing system -- particularly if they can't tell a megabyte from a troglodyte. "I don't think that it's common knowledge for most Internet users as to how many bytes are associated with various activities that they're doing online," says Williams. "Because they don't understand that they're probably going to be very hesitant to sign up for a service that bills them in that manner."Williams doesn't think it's an awful idea for ISPs to at least offer it as an option. "You can only think that having more options available is beneficial for consumers," he says. The primary beneficiaries of such a model would obviously be those who don't use their connection for much other than browsing or e-mail. Of course they're already likely on an inexpensive DSL or "lite" cable tier. I really think they're going to have a hard time trying to get people to migrate away from the idea of unlimited usage for a flat fee. -Jupiter Research analyst Doug Williams |
All of that said, Williams doesn't see the bill-by-the-byte model happening anytime soon. "I really think they're going to have a hard time trying to get people to migrate away from the idea of unlimited usage for a flat fee."Which ISP wants to be the first to announce they'll be billing customers based on usage? It's a marketing minefield, and it's the fear of customer retaliation that's keeping ISPs from taking the plunge. Traffic shaping and caps are, for now, letting ISPs manage these power users on the down low, since soccer moms could care less about such tactics as long as YouTube videos work. What the ISPs ThinkOf the half-dozen ISPs that responded to our inquiry over the past few weeks, none of them admitted to any plans to switch from the flat-rate pricing model. That's not to say they haven't examined the idea. A few weeks ago, a Comcast insider claimed to the Consumerist that the company had already tested such a system, but was afraid of customer backlash: "Comcast even has a system ready to go where if you exceed the limit a popup will ask you to purchase additional gigabytes, our source says. The graphic interface is completely designed but they haven't deployed it because they're waiting for either another ISP to do it first or to figure out how to do it without angering their customers. CEO Brian Roberts is said to have seen a demo and given his thumbs up." We asked Comcast to comment on billing-by-the-byte, but received only an insistence that the company was "focused on the value war." Cablevision also wasn't particularly keen on offering an official position for us. Neither company wanted to go into specifics about future plans, which to us indicates they aren't willing to rule it out. The baby bells were a little more willing to go on the record to state that at least for now, there's no plan to change their pricing models. AT&T tells us their current pricing model "accommodates today's broadband needs with convenience, simplicity and value," and that there's no plan to switch to metered use. Qwest told us a similar story, saying that "right now, Qwest plans to continue with our current pricing -- a flat, per-month rate." "We've seen great success with our Price for Life Guarantee," says the company, "and right now, plan to continue to offer that type of pricing structure."Smaller providers, as you might expect, were even more forthcoming, saying that they've examined the idea, but decided that it just wasn't what consumers wanted. "Speakeasy uses flat-rate pricing today and we do not currently have any plans to adopt a different billing methodology," Speakeasy CEO Bruce Chatterley tells us. The ISP boss says that "our customers, especially small businesses, have told us that they are really sick of getting "nickel and dimed" in communications products," so they're not shifting their pricing. "We surveyed a couple folks we know who understand the Australian market, where they do this, and the general response was that Australians don't like it at all." -Sonic.net CEO Dane Jasper |
Meanwhile, Sonic.net CEO Dane Jasper admits that the company had some internal discussions about metered use when they first launched their new ADSL2+ speeds. Jasper notes that the product's faster speeds "[raised] concerns for us about what happens if someone with a 24Mbps connection uses it a lot - the trouble is that the costs can be huge.""I asked my team what they thought about having a single flat cost, with usage tacked on," says Jasper. "We surveyed a couple folks we know who understand the Australian market, where they do this, and the general response was that Australians don't like it at all.""Our conclusion was that we'd continue with a speed/tier/price model as we launch this product," the CEO says. To soothe the minds of worried industry number crunchers who think the shift is necessary, we might remind them that the industry's largest providers are doing just fine financially. They've also clearly found plenty of additional revenue streams, including advertising via webmail, BVAS, selling your clickstream data, fiddling with DNS functionality or charging to get around spam filters -- all while finding new and innovative ways to deliver less bandwidth through traffic shaping. It's pretty clear that while ISPs have examined the possibility, billing-by-the-byte isn't going mainstream without U.S. consumers signing off on it. So far, the idea remains a pipe dream among investors and executives. If it does hit the American broadband scene, expect it to take the form of overage fees first, accompanied by a massive PR push lamenting a looming bandwidth apocalypse. Until then, bon appetit. Related:- Comcast DOCSIS 3.0 Hits Denver
- AT&T Offers $99 'Text, Talk & Surf' Plan
- FCC To Investigate Special Access Pricing
- Per-Byte Broadband Billing Is Neither Necessary Nor Inevitable
- Mandatory Smartphone Data Plans Seem Hypocritical
- TDS Telecom Launches 50 Mbps Fiber
- ISPs Don't Really Want Per Byte Billing
- Verizon Offers New Prepaid Wireless Broadband Plans
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  X_Digit Binary Enhanced Premium join:2003-06-12 Mansfield, TX
| Bullshit... "ISPs, who have increasingly struggled with these users, first stopped advertising their services as unlimited (if they were smart)."
Bullshit... we're all already accustomed to the way the internet works now. They start cutting back or billing per byte, I can guarantee a backlash! Look at all the shit Comcast gets now... they start restricting or cutting back too much, people will start to find their own ways around it. | |
|  |  |  |   BF69
join:2004-07-28 Camden, TN
| Re: Bullshit... said by X_Digit :"ISPs, who have increasingly struggled with these users, first stopped advertising their services as unlimited (if they were smart)." Bullshit... we're all already accustomed to the way the internet works now. They start cutting back or billing per byte, I can guarantee a backlash! Look at all the shit Comcast gets now... they start restricting or cutting back too much, people will start to find their own ways around it. Oooh god forbid bandwidth hog leaves his ISP. I'm sure they would really hate for that to happen. | |
|  |  |   james
join:2001-02-26 antarctica | Re: Bullshit... All high speed customers are bandwidth hogs, if they weren't they would still be happily chugging along on free 56k dial up. | |
|  |   S_engineer
join:2007-05-16 Chicago, IL
·Comcast
| I agree to a certain degree. The customers they lose will then be paid for by the unfortunate customers that are forced to stay. ISPs will always figure out formulas that will elevate your price...your price will never decline!
Ask this of your ISP...since they claim that the 5% of people that are "bandwidth hogs" account for 50 % of usage, will the new proposed price structure include lower fees for the ones that use minimal bandwidth? -- Burn a tire, but make sure you buy that carbon offset! | |
|  |  |   Somnambul33t L33t. Premium join:2002-12-05 Mullica Hill, NJ clubs:
·Comcast
| Re: Bullshit... said by S_engineer :I agree to a certain degree. The customers they lose will then be paid for by the unfortunate customers that are forced to stay. ISPs will always figure out formulas that will elevate your price...your price will never decline! EXACTLY!
this is why bill per byte will raise prices for most people, whether theyre the top 5% or not. bill per byte won't lower prices for people that dont use "excessive" bandwidth, so if their bills do change, it will be going up.
the best idea would be to tell "hogs" to buy the premium packages, or even create a new top of the line package that offers little to no restrictions at a premium price.
just the idea of bill per byte is scarey...it's like prepaid cell phones all over again. i dont want to have to weigh the cost of downloading something i'm not sure i'll ever use/install/etc just b/c i have to pay for it. i'd rather pay a large monthly sum and download whatever the hell i want to download and not think twice about it. | |
|   swintec Premium join:2003-12-19 Alfred, ME | Woo-Hooo "Until then, Bon Appetit."
I'll download to that!  | |
|  robertfl Premium join:2005-10-10 Mary Esther, FL
·Cox VOIP
| Not going to happen People will not be able to afford Internet if this happens. Look at what AUSSIE ISPS are doing and how many people there are on dial up because of the strict caps they have.
ISP's are greedy and don't care ENOUGH about their RES customers. If they did, better tech support, better "security" software and better FIOS like speeds.
It's bad enough Comcrap has invisible caps and now this??
Let's focus on the problems such as zombie computers sending spam to the masses and using that bandwidth.
That's what uses a lot of the bandwidth in the first place. If a customer wants to download LINUX, he/she should be able to without fear of being charged by the bite.
If ISP's want to preserve their bandwidth, EDUCATE the end user about internet safety and warn them that a computer can be used without their permission.
/me wonders
-Rob | |
|  |   BF69
join:2004-07-28 Camden, TN
| Re: Not going to happen said by robertfl :People will not be able to afford Internet if this happens. If you're not a hog nothing will change for you. If you are one, don't expect pity from me beause you can no longer to aford to download your illegal copies of movies that are still in theaters and music and tv shows you didn't pay for. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |   battleop
join:2005-09-28 00000
| Re: Not going to happen BullShit. You can't and will not convince me that someone who is downloading 300+GB per month is "just downloading Linux ISOs" month after month.
There would be little back lash if any from consumers if they switched to a 100Gb/mo for $X per month with $X per GB over 100Gb model.
If this ever happens then all of the major ISPs will do it. It's a matter of who is the brave one to step up and go first. They will see is as an additional revenue stream and will jump at the opportunity to grab even more money. | |
|  |  |  |  |   Quaoar
join:2004-08-11 Fort Collins, CO
| Re: Not going to happen Ditto! Anyone downloading over (IMO) 100GB/month cannot rationally defend their practice.
Frankly, I don't care if it take me six hours to download my chosen Linux distro at 8GB. I do care if I cannot download a 100MB file that I need because some college person elects to swamp my node, and that does happen in my town.
Linux, my rosy red a**! Maybe 50 GB in one month for five or six distros, but we all know that the top downloaders are accessing TV programs, now perhaps in HD.
There is no defense for downloading excessively, none.
Q | |
|  |  |  |  |  |   whfsdude Premium join:2003-04-05 Washington, DC
1 edit | Re: Not going to happen said by Quaoar :Ditto! Anyone downloading over (IMO) 100GB/month cannot rationally defend their practice. Joost Podcasts Bandwagon (backs up my iTunes to my remote server) System updates OS Seeds NBC + ABC + FOX + FRONTLINE + DISCOVERY (watching TV online) VOIP and normal web browsing.
I'm a bandwidth hog. No question about it. The problem is when you cannot get unlimited. I'd be happy to pay a high premium since I don't pay for cable or pots.
Right now I'm a 2gig/day cap. My solution so far has been to setup a wireless bridge and it's going good. FYI, I use anywhere from 5 to 30 gigs a day (all of it legally). | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  compton
join:2002-02-08 Brooklyn, NY
| said by Quaoar :Ditto! Anyone downloading over (IMO) 100GB/month cannot rationally defend their practice. Frankly, I don't care if it take me six hours to download my chosen Linux distro at 8GB. I do care if I cannot download a 100MB file that I need because some college person elects to swamp my node, and that does happen in my town. Linux, my rosy red a**! Maybe 50 GB in one month for five or six distros, but we all know that the top downloaders are accessing TV programs, now perhaps in HD. There is no defense for downloading excessively, none. Q Its not necessarily true that someone who down loads 100 gigabytes a month is pirating copyright material. There are a lot of services on the Internet that will eat up bandwidth. Some services that can use a lot of bandwidth are (1) streaming radio (XM, Cirrus, iTunes radio, etc) that is streaming at or above 156 Kbps; (2) down loading legal paid for DVDs (porn, old movies, etc) at 4 gigs a pop; (3) downloading high quality TV shows from iTunes or other similar services; (4) downloading high quality movies from Netflix or Blockbuster online services; (5) using VOIP, online gaming, watching videos from Youtube, Yahoo, etc.
The day is soon coming where 100 gig usage is normal. We are using the Internet more and more for routine stuf. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |   wifi4milez Big Russ, 1918 to 2008. Rest in Peace
join:2004-08-07 New York, NY
·Verizon FIOS
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
·RoadRunner Cable
·BroadVoice
| Re: Not going to happen said by compton :It's not necessarily true that someone who down loads 100 gigabytes a month is pirating copyright material. There are a lot of services on the Internet that will eat up bandwidth. Some services that can use a lot of bandwidth are (1) streaming radio (XM, Cirrus, iTunes radio, etc) that is streaming at or above 156 Kbps; (2) down loading legal paid for DVDs (porn, old movies, etc) at 4 gigs a pop; (3) downloading high quality TV shows from iTunes or other similar services; (4) downloading high quality movies from Netflix or Blockbuster online services; (5) using VOIP, online gaming, watching videos from Youtube, Yahoo, etc. The day is soon coming where 100 gig usage is normal. We are using the Internet more and more for routine stuf. Yes, for the most part it is true that anyone downloading 100+ gigs a month is pirating. I do all of the above, plus I also stream live TV via my slingbox, and I have never done more than 20 gigs in a given month. My usual consumption is less than 10 gigs in fact. There is no reason to defend stealing unless you are doing it yourself..... -- я люблю Денди! | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   zachary1 you talkin' to me?
join:2004-03-07 right here | Re: Not going to happen It's not stealing, it's sharing....
F the haterz, keep sharing! | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  bmn ? ? ? Premium,ExMod 2003-06 join:2001-03-15 hiatus | Re: Not going to happen Microsoft Updates...  | |
|  |  |  |  |  compton
join:2002-02-08 Brooklyn, NY
| said by wifi4milez :said by N10Cities :  Just because someone downloads a lot doesn't necessarily make them a pirate. Linux ISOs for example...download quite a few of them myself.... HAHAHAHA, I was waiting for someone to say that! Linux ISO's, yeah right! Cant you guys come up with something better?? Did you read my post? I guess not. | |
|  |  |   WALL_E Premium join:2003-05-28 USA
1 edit | said by BF69 :said by robertfl :People will not be able to afford Internet if this happens. If you're not a hog nothing will change for you. If you are one, don't expect pity from me beause you can no longer to aford to download your illegal copies of movies that are still in theaters and music and tv shows you didn't pay for. I would agree with you if it weren't for the fact that there are limited options to acquire such content legally thanks to DRM or other impediments. I don't feel that it's immoral or unfair of me to download a TV show I like that airs in another country and isn't available for me to purchase legally. I don't feel that it is immoral or unfair for me to download a TV show I missed on TV the night before if the cable service I'm paying for offers its corresponding channel.
Acquiring content online conveniently fills in the huge void left in the marketplace by industries too focus sed on combating piracy rather than offering a compelling legal option. Until they wake up, I don't blame people who casually "pirate" content that isn't available for purchase in the first place.
I pirated music prior to the advent of decent online stores - there was no way I was paying for a full CD full of mostly garbage and 1 or 2 good tracks. Likewise, I'll continue to pirate content if I am not provided with a reasonable way to purchase it legally. -- Ron Paul 2008! | |
|  |  |  |  Nightwchtr
join:2001-09-10 Falls Church, VA 1 edit | Re: Not going to happen njorge7388 YOU ARE A TRUE AMERICAN  | |
|  |  |  |  |  robertfl Premium join:2005-10-10 Mary Esther, FL | Re: Not going to happen DRM is evil and it DOESN'T protect the artist only the INDUSTRY's WALLET.
and sorry but i refuse to waste my time on crappy downloads.
-rob | |
|  |  |  |   BF69
join:2004-07-28 Camden, TN
| said by WALL_E :I would agree with you if it weren't for the fact that there are limited options to acquire such content legally thanks to DRM or other impediments. How did DRM come about? Because people kept stealing crap.
I don't feel that it's immoral or unfair of me to download a TV show I like that airs in another country and isn't available for me to purchase legally. I don't feel that it is immoral or unfair for me to download a TV show I missed on TV the night before if the cable service I'm paying for offers its corresponding channel.
Acquiring content online conveniently fills in the huge void left in the marketplace by industries too focus sed on combating piracy rather than offering a compelling legal option. Until they wake up, I don't blame people who casually "pirate" content that isn't available for purchase in the first place.
I pirated music prior to the advent of decent online stores - there was no way I was paying for a full CD full of mostly garbage and 1 or 2 good tracks. Likewise, I'll continue to pirate content if I am not provided with a reasonable way to purchase it legally. So if the bank turns you down for a loan then it's ok to rob the big evil corporate bank? One could justify breaking any law, rule or code of ethics. Doesn't mean it's ok. | |
|  |  |  |  |   WALL_E Premium join:2003-05-28 USA
| Re: Not going to happen said by BF69 :said by WALL_E :I would agree with you if it weren't for the fact that there are limited options to acquire such content legally thanks to DRM or other impediments. How did DRM come about? Because people kept stealing crap. I don't feel that it's immoral or unfair of me to download a TV show I like that airs in another country and isn't available for me to purchase legally. I don't feel that it is immoral or unfair for me to download a TV show I missed on TV the night before if the cable service I'm paying for offers its corresponding channel.
Acquiring content online conveniently fills in the huge void left in the marketplace by industries too focus sed on combating piracy rather than offering a compelling legal option. Until they wake up, I don't blame people who casually "pirate" content that isn't available for purchase in the first place.
I pirated music prior to the advent of decent online stores - there was no way I was paying for a full CD full of mostly garbage and 1 or 2 good tracks. Likewise, I'll continue to pirate content if I am not provided with a reasonable way to purchase it legally. So if the bank turns you down for a loan then it's ok to rob the big evil corporate bank? One could justify breaking any law, rule or code of ethics. Doesn't mean it's ok. If you're honestly defending DRM than there is no way I can possibly have an intelligent conversation with you. DRM is an entirely anti-consumer creation that I will not tolerate in products that I pay for.
The fact that I get a better experience as a consumer by pirating content shows that the industry is remarkably out-of-touch with reality. I pay for software and content that I consider to be of value. I purchase OS X because it is a reasonable price with no copy protection. I will not purchase Vista because it's price is unreasonable and its protection is unreasonable. (Not that it should matter to you, but I also don't steal Windows. I run Linux on my non-Mac machines).
And please refrain from using lame analogies that in no way accurately represent the situation. NO ONE lost money because I chose to download episodes of "The IT Crowd" this season as they were released overseas. -- Ron Paul 2008! | |
|  |  |  |  |  |   BF69
join:2004-07-28 Camden, TN
| Re: Not going to happen said by WALL_E :If you're honestly defending DRM than there is no way I can possibly have an intelligent conversation with you. DRM is an entirely anti-consumer creation that I will not tolerate in products that I pay for. A) I am not defneding DRM I am explaining to you as to why is exists. Big difference. I wish DRM didn't exist. I know whose fault it is for it's existance is though.
B) No one is forcing to buy DRMed products. Doesn't mean you have a right to pirate them either. If you want to make a statement to the companies then do so with your pocketbook and do not buy DRM products. Don't pirate them. When you do you create a value for them( because only an idiot pirate would steal something that has no value ) and thus continue to enforce the belief of the big evil coroporations that these products are worth protecting with DRM.
Does DRM work? No. Do consumers hate it? Yes. Do you want the big corps to stop using it? Of course. Then do the things that will stop them from using it. Pirating is not one of them. As wrong as the big corps are that DRM stops pirating people like you are equally wrong in thinking that pirating is going to make the big corps stop using DRM.
The fact is that if people weren't so stupid to starting using things like the original Napster and Kazza and all those other things to pirate songs then DRM would never have seen the light of day and music would be available online DRM free and less than half the price it is now. FACT.
I am not going to blame the bank that my ATM fee went up to pay for the armed gaurd at the door. I am going to blame the theives that rob the banks.
The fact that I get a better experience as a consumer by pirating content shows that the industry is remarkably out-of-touch with reality. Even without DRM the vast majority of pirates would still do so because they are too cheap to pay 99, 79 or even 49 cents for a song. FACT. DRM is just a convienent excuse to justify their pirating.
If you are suggesting the vast majority of people that pirate do it out of some sense of higher moral obligation to get the big bad corporations to change their ways, rather than to serve their own selfish needs, you seriously need help.
And please refrain from using lame analogies that in no way accurately represent the situation. NO ONE lost money because I chose to download episodes of "The IT Crowd" this season as they were released overseas. yes yes continue to justify your theivery instead of just admitting you are a thief. I'd have more respect for you if you would. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  backness
join:2005-07-08 K2P OW2
| Re: Not going to happen are you kidding?
If Napster was never invented...
A) Piracy would still exist although it might not be as main stream B) The CD manufacturers are still fighting tooth and nail to avoid online distribution to this day. They have done almost nothing to update their business model TO THIS DAY!
If you really believe that Big Music would lovingly embrace online distribution if Naptster was never invented, you need your head examined. | |
|  |  openbox9
join:2004-01-26 Alexandria, VA
·AT&T Southeast
| said by robertfl :People will not be able to afford Internet if this happens. I call BS. Do you mean that people won't be able to afford Internet access just like they can't afford cell phones, cable TV, and an SUV with big fat 22's all the while struggling to pay rent and feed the family?said by robertfl :If ISP's want to preserve their bandwidth, EDUCATE the end user about internet safety and warn them that a computer can be used without their permission. That's not an ISP's job...at least unless you want to pay them extra for that "value added service". You're speaking contrary to the "dumb pipe" that everyone around here desires their ISPs to be. Personally, given the fact that bandwidth is a finite resource, just like numerous other metered resources, I believe the billing structure should shift to a method similar to that of a cell phone plan. Will it be popular? No. Will people bitch? They always do. Is it the right thing to do to maintain consumer costs? Yes. | |
|  |  |  robertfl Premium join:2005-10-10 Mary Esther, FL
·Cox VOIP
| Re: Not going to happen at the same time though, this shit I get several times a day is using the ISP's pipe and there for should be at least partly to blame.
dictionary attacks, the latest sex scam the latest viagara rip off the latest hot stock picks are what's clogging up (in a small fraction) the isp's pipe.
it's getting to the point where e-mail is useless.
rob | |
|  |  |  |  openbox9
join:2004-01-26 Alexandria, VA
·AT&T Southeast
| Re: Not going to happen Hmm, I don't seem to have anywhere near the problem that you speak of. I've got 10 actively managed e-mail accounts and I get maybe 20 SPAM messages per week total. Everything else is filtered at my mail server and never sees my ISP's network. I've tested my ability to hammer my ISP's connection over a month's time by firing up my BT client and downloading/uploading as much crap as I could reasonably spend time searching for and I was only able to transfer a total of about 300 GB. That included me initiating two or three "Linux ISO" downloads before work and two or three "Linux ISO" downloads after work every day and then letting the uploads continue until I reached at least a 2:1 ratio. Only 300 GB during my test. How people can continue to justify insane amounts of data transfers per month (or utilize what they're downloading) and continue to blame these transfers on the reasons that continue to be abused is beyond me. So, I still believe that a usage-based model is the way to maintain consumer costs and levy costs of expanding infrastructure to those who are using the infrastructure. Pay for what you use...what a strange concept. | |
|   Maggs Premium join:2002-11-29 Woodside, NY
·RCN CABLE
| What about pings, packet storms and Cable modem data On cable, I'm on a shared network and the packets pass to each modem, why should I be billed for the search and destroy method of cable. They would have to totally re engineer their networks to accommodate this on a grand scale, and imagine the logs the techs would have to deal with. -- Inside Cube Hell! | |
|  |   djrobx
join:2000-05-31 Valencia, CA | Re: What about pings, packet storms and Cable modem data The (usually encrypted) packets do pass to each modem, but it's not exactly hard to track usage to a specific IP address. -- Laser eye surgery rocks! I love frickin' laser beams. | |
|  |  amungus Premium join:2004-11-26 America clubs:
| Well said.
Personally, I think it should all be unlimited, at whatever 'speed' package you opt for. A person on DSL "lite" (~512-768kbps) should be able to use that available line at ALL times, at full blast. Same goes for the person on turbo cable - it should be available at ALL times, full blast.
The problem is that people are used to thinking in terms of a circuit switched network - that is, if they can talk all day and all night on their phone, that the same rules should apply to their internet service as well. People generally believe that if they're paying for "always on" "broadband" service, that it should damn well be available at ALL times, at full speed. Not that everyone is constantly doing that, but the notion remains that they should be able to, should they so desire.
Before all the "get a business line" people come around, let me also point out that such plans come with much more than simply guaranteed levels of bandwidth - SLA's, multiple IP addresses, and more expensive equipment to connect all of it.................
Another problem is that now we have such connections at our disposal. Ten years ago, every home user had dialup, some had ISDN, but most of those home users at ~53kbps could be online all day, all night - nobody cared. If you paid for unlimited dialup, you got just that - un-fraking-limited dialup. Sure, it'd disconnect randomly, and could be troublesome to reconnect during busy times, but generally, I don't recall anyone being upset about "bandwidth hogs"
That system worked pretty well, and bandwidth was still oversold sometimes, but overall, dialup users could expect that their ISP would leave them alone. Nobody cared. You could download all day and all night at ~53kbps, no problem.
(A)DSL, since it runs on dedicated circuits, is generally also much more suited to be used constantly. Bandwidth may be oversold, but in theory, users should still be able to get full speed all day long. It also seems that you sure don't hear much about DSL providers "capping" people......
Either way, people expect that their line should work at full blast, all the time. That's just how it's been ingrained into their minds because that's how it's worked in the past.
It's not up to US to change, it's up to the ISP's. They should be able to handle it, or they should change their packages - simple as that. Either offer a faster package, and be prepared to handle it, or keep your speeds the same until the infrastructure (and money flow) can handle it...
Obviously, even DSLR links that most ISP's are doing fine! If they're doing fine, they've likely also been keeping up with upgrading their equipment. Whether that's to handle more users, more speed, or both doesn't matter. What matters is that they've had the ability to do either or both, and it's their network to do with what they will. If they can't understand that most people have it in their head the way they do, then perhaps they should invest a little money in surveying people..... Fortunately, it appears that this article confirms that most people don't want anything like a "pay per byte" plan, and for many good reasons  | |
|  |  |  whocares Premium join:2003-07-26 ..
| Re:My Questions R simple broadband industry is built on doesn't take kindly to the power user,who makes up a small percentage of an ISP's user base but consumes the majority of its bandwidth. Like gluttons at an all you can eat buffet,these users flock to the advertised promise of unlimited bandwidth,stuffing their hungry maws with porn, DVD rips and all the ABBA discographies they can consume. ====================================================== 1, Then WHY is it so hard to just raise the rates for these Power users,like raising [b]the prices of cigarettes or the tax on cigarettes? instead of hurting EVERYONE inside the USA, china has a limit on what they allow their citizen to be able to search on the Internet,also bet China & other countries don't have many "Power users". ========================================== 2,Why shouldn't Power Users be "capped out" or limited? =================================================== But what happens when video services turn everyone into a bandwidth hog? In addition to a flood of legitimate and pirated content for download, there looms services like DirecTV's upcoming broadband VOD system that allows users to hook their broadband connection up to their DVR to download high-definition content. *********************************************** simple, then slow down the D/L time,again cap out or limit how much data & how fast it can be d/l. high for business's to get by on,slower for home users. Jazzy -- Some people do not like nice & courteous people on the internet,simply because THEY ARE NOT ONE THEMSELVES
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|  |  |  |  |  King Duck
join:2005-04-10 Elizabeth City, NC
| Re: Oink Oink »www.itvn.com is a site I intend to look into ordering from next year. Their sports package includes Australian Rules football and, as ESPN no longer show it, that is the only way I can get to see matches. This would be a totally legitimate, and paid-for, use of my internet connection but if I had to pay-per-byte in addition to the monthly cost it would not be feasible. | |
|  |  |   en102 Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26 Valencia, CA
·RoadRunner Cable
·DSL EXTREME
| Re: Is there competition or not ? In general, it would come down to pricing... Eg. If Cable offered $30/month for a 6 Mbps tier for the first 10GB and 768kbps after that per month... would people use it? This would be compared to the standard $55/month package for 6Mbps unlimited (essentially a 'powerboost' to the low end 768kbps tier). I think you might get a lot of people going for it.
The problem is typically that Cable doesn't want to have its price lowered.., and would rather give 16Mbps for $65 and then cap it at 100GB. -- Canada = Hollywood North | |
|  |  bmn ? ? ? Premium,ExMod 2003-06 join:2001-03-15 hiatus
| I think the complaint is a lack of competition based on the idea that more competition in services is better than less.
Yes, there is competition between the three main ways of getting broadband (four in some places) - MSOs, ILECs, Satellite (and in some places, wireless), but more would be much better. -- Prove it... Save the Internet Time (NTP) service, use the pool. | |
|  |   karlmarx
join:2006-09-18 iraq
·Fairpoint Communic..
| As usual, you are comparing apples to oranges. For the individual, there is no competition, they are FORCED to pay whatever the megacorp thinks they can gouge out of them. For the GROUP, there is competition, because companies come and go all the time.
If there was TRUE competition, we wouldn't be having this discussion at all. If I had a choice of 10 providers, I would pick the one that DIDN'T charge me by the byte, and let me use what I pay for. That provider would get EVERYONE's business, because, if you read the article, NO-ONE LIKES BY THE BYTE.
The only reason the Australians put up with it, because.. (drum roll please), THEY HAVE NO COMPETITION. -- Stick it to the MAN. Support your local torrent sites. Proudly providing 100mb of upstream for all your TV, Movie, and MP3 needs. | |
|   Maggs Premium join:2002-11-29 Woodside, NY | If they do... I'm promptly dropping my internet connection in favor of dialup. I use about 30GB a month and at a penny per kb it gets expensive.
1,024kb = 1MB * 1024MB = 1 GB = -- Inside Cube Hell! | |
|  |  See 7 replies to this post | |
  techjoe Premium join:2004-02-20 Schererville, IN
1 edit | Wow Well I honestly didn't read the entire article but I do know this: ISPs will not reduce the cost of service for the average users, they'll just increase their average profit margin on each customer if they cut off (or drive away) the "power users".
I'm 100% against metered bandwidth. What's to stop me from sending you data you never asked for? Not even DoS, imagine cases to where some evil person decided to send a trickle of data constantly to you, masked as something as silly as an HTTP response you never requested? Or after-scatter of bittorrent traffic, or a misconfigured server spewing crap at your IP instead of the intended address? There's a zillion cases to where "bogus" inbound traffic can get received. SPAM even! What if the user has a POP account and PC-level anti-spam? You're paying for spam then too. That's like having to pay postage on the junk postal mail when it arrives in your mailbox. It's hilariously not logical and is doomed to failure.
I use a metered line from time to time and we'll have a metered burst on our new pipe at work. However, they offer fast reaction access to have upstream filtering put in place and offer us protection from unwanted traffic. Do you think the ISPs can actually offer DDoS filtering, customizable firewalling, advanced route troubleshooting, all that crap to the average users? No, right? Well how can they ensure that the users only have the traffic they asked for then?
It's just the wrong way to go. I wouldn't object heavily to (ab)users getting disconnected for excess usage, however those limits and terms need to be made clear at sign-up and not be generically termed as "reasonable" and "not reasonable" usage.
I'm one of those high-bandwidth evil hogs that uses what's available when I want to, too. I've never had the lowest tier of service no matter what service I had, if higher tiers were available. I would be ticked if I was disconnected for my usage sure, I have to be honest, but it is not MY system and if they don't want my monthly fees (and the associated usage) well more power to them. Again though, those limits should be made clear AT LEAST in any contract-based agreement.......
/soapbox
edit: Wouldn't it be easier to sit down and crunch some numbers on what the usage limits should be, than to switch to metered service? Me thinks one of them makes the ISP more money....  -- www.clanc.cc | |
|  bmn ? ? ? Premium,ExMod 2003-06 join:2001-03-15 hiatus
| The problem with metered service... The main problem with metered service is that it is going to cause the internet to stagnate, not die, just stagnate. The "unlimited" service model is what has allowed for things like online music stores (iTunes, Rhapsody, etc.), user generated content (Deviant Art, LiveJournal, etc), online gaming, VoIP, and whole lot of other applications to develop. The demand for broadband was create BY the fact that people no longer had to worry about being connected too long/using too much.
By switching to a pay per byte model, the model of the internet that has emerged, a bazaar that everyone can interact within, disappears. The demand for these new services that have pushed the internet forward will wain.
Pay per byte doesn't really make sense in well connected nations like Japan, Korea, the US, Canada, and the whole of Europe. The only reason places like Australia are putting up with it is because of the shady dealings of companies that are providing those places with connectivity to the rest of the world. -- Prove it... Save the Internet Time (NTP) service, use the pool. | |
|  |   redshift Premium join:2004-03-23 Beverly Hills, CA
1 edit | Re: The problem with metered service... The problem with places like Australia isn 't the fact that bandwidth is limited (it's not really unlimited anywhere else, except maybe Japan) because even in "Well connected" places like Canada you are kicked off the network if you download more than a certain amount, it's the cost of broadband. In all other developed nations a reasonable prices broadband service, with about 100 gigs of download is in the $40-$60 range, whereas in Australia that would be easily $120 +
One thing about metering that the ISPs may not like is that if you pay for a certain amount of bandwidth and you have access to how much you consume, you are probably more likely to consume the remaining amount of you bandwidth at the end of the month, because you paid for it. So they will have a lot of the heavy users actually using their excess bandwidth at the end of the month, then perhaps they otherwise would simply because they can; because they know what they have left.
Also some of the better ISPs in Canada (teksavvy) already meter, but they do have an unlimited option. $30 for 100gigs of DSL /month is quite reasonable. -- "So this is how liberty dies. With thunderous applause." | |
|  |  |   RARPSL
join:1999-12-08 Suffern, NY
| Re: The problem with metered service... said by redshift :One thing about metering that the ISPs may not like is that if you pay for a certain amount of bandwidth and you have access to how much you consume, you are probably more likely to consume the remaining amount of you bandwidth at the end of the month, because you paid for it. So they will have a lot of the heavy users actually using their excess bandwidth at the end of the month, than perhaps they otherwise would simply because they can. If I am charged $X for yGB of bandwidth, I should be given that amount - ie: Roll-Over of unused Bandwidth. The unused Bandwidth can expire (if not used in a designated period of time), get discounted (ie: The Bandwidth from 2 months ago might only be worth 75%), or exchangeable for discounted monthly payments (ex: Once I have yGB of Rolled-Over bandwidth, I get a free month of service that burns off the full yGB even if not all used). In each case the ISP is delivering what was paid for - ie: An average of yGB/month for my $X. | |
|  mbkowns Got Bandwidth?
join:2003-07-01 Riverside, CA | AOL and other dialups remember dialup and buying service by hours of use.. People didn't like that. When they came out with unlimited people let it rain and many more users signed up. -- - MBK (AIM = IllMBKllI) | |
|  |  averagedude
join:2002-01-30 Mesa, AZ
·Cox HSI
| Re: AOL and other dialups Note: I don't download mp3's and I am not a gamer.
Way back in the day.... I never used the internet at home until dial up went unlimited.
Time moves forward.... Today I have a cell phone with a internet - slow but functional. I am finding less and less reasons to plaster my face in front of a screen after working all day in front of one.
If anything, I am thinking about going down in speed for totally budget reasons. I am just not at home enough to justify paying for something I am not using.
If Cox decides to go pay by the bite, I just may go back to dial up. I would not cut my self off totally, but between work, cell phone, and dial up at home.... I think I would be covered. | |
|  majortom1029
join:2006-10-19 Lindenhurst, NY
| hmm Why not do what cablevision is doing. Cablevision made two tiers. The normal one if you use too much uplaod you will get capped. Now if you get boost wich is 30/5 you wont get capped. Its also on a docsis 2 network so that it wont interfere with the 16.5/2 customers . So if you want to be a hog you can pay more and do it. | |
|   texans20 Weapons of Masturbation Premium join:2002-09-28 Texas! clubs: | Pick Two I read this somewhere, and it makes perfect sense.
You are allowed to pick only two of the following three choices:
Fast Internet Cheap Internet Reliable Internet | |
|  |  scooper
join:2000-07-11 Youngsville, NC | Re: Pick Two For my money - give me the last two.... Speed would be great, but I'm not willing to pay a premium for it. | |
|  |  bmn ? ? ? Premium,ExMod 2003-06 join:2001-03-15 hiatus | I took the first and the last... And I pay for it. | |
|  smcallah
join:2004-08-05 Home
| Charge by the hour instead... They could always go back to charging by the hour. 
I remember the crazy hourly fees for AOL, CompuServe, Delphi. I think CompuServe was $22.50/hour for 9600baud when I started using.
Just start using PPP logins for everyone, and they better make sure they logout, or boy would that be quite a bill. | |
|  IanR
join:2001-03-22 Madison, NJ | TV by usage. Why do some ISPs want to charge by the Byte when the same basic channel provides TV and they have no ambition of charging for TV by usage? | |
|  |  pfsmith
join:2006-11-16 Lafayette, IN
| Re: TV by usage. Charging for TV by usage makes no sense because an individual user cannot hog the pipe by watching "too much" TV.
The TV content is broadcast on that frequency - whether you watch it or not. And, even if everyone watches it YOUR particular user experience does not suffer because of it.
So, this is not really an applicable point. | |
|  |  |  IanR
join:2001-03-22 Madison, NJ | Re: TV by usage. Actually many cable operators are now incorporating SwitchVideo (SV) which isn't sent down all fiber. It's requested by each individual user. This business model is closer to broadband utilization. | |
|  Joe12345678
join:2003-07-22 Des Plaines, IL
| rates? You will also have to set it up so dsl users who are to far way don't get over billed of data overage. If the faster speeds has more data but you can't get that speed you should still be able to pay part of the higher speed cost to get the high data limits before the overage fees kick in Or the overage rate should not be higher then the rate that comes with your plan. | |
|  |   Lil Jon Premium join:2006-06-26 Lawrenceville, GA | Re: rates? interesting, good read! | |
|  pfsmith
join:2006-11-16 Lafayette, IN
| Just Like the Electric Company! I can't wait until my electric bill is flat rate! Then I won't have to think about KWHr and all of that mumbo jumbo, right?! Crank up the A/C in the summer! Yeah! Switch from gas heat to ALL electric HVAC, YOU BET! I'll be the first to buy a plug-in electric car, that's for sure! No more getting raped at the gas pump!
YEA, RIGHT!
Real Internet usage billing cannot possibly be that difficult. Why shouldn't those that use the internet THE MOST (legally or not) PAY FOR IT??
(Excepting issues like getting sent data that you didn't request... those problems will have to be solved, of course, but that shouldn't be too hard, if we put our minds to it.) | |
|  |  Joe12345678
join:2003-07-22 Des Plaines, IL | Re: Just Like the Electric Company! power and water is not the same as bandwidth | |
|  |  |  pfsmith
join:2006-11-16 Lafayette, IN
1 edit | Re: Just Like the Electric Company! Really?! It's NOT the same??
Seems to me that bandwidth isn't FREE. If it was, we'd all have INFINITE BANDWIDTH, RIGHT?
Someone, somewhere, has to spend money to provide it to you.
That alone makes it the same as power and water and any other utility.
I ask again... why shouldn't those that use it the most pay the most?
Why should I subsidize a heavier user than me?
If my electric bill paid for other's usage, I'd be pretty unhappy about that... wouldn't you? | |
|  |  |  |  compton
join:2002-02-08 Brooklyn, NY
| Re: Just Like the Electric Company! said by pfsmith :Really?! It's NOT the same?? Seems to me that bandwidth isn't FREE. If it was, we'd all have INFINITE BANDWIDTH, RIGHT? Someone, somewhere, has to spend money to provide it to you. That alone makes it the same as power and water and any other utility. I ask again... why shouldn't those that use it the most pay the most? Why should I subsidize a heavier user than me? If my electric bill paid for other's usage, I'd be pretty unhappy about that... wouldn't you? Why do you assume that you are subsidizing a heavier user? Unless you know the model that the internet providing is using you don't know if the average user is subsidizing the heavy user. The model the ISPs are using is over subscription, in this model, the average user is not subsidizing the heavy user. | |
|  |  |  |  |  pfsmith
join:2006-11-16 Lafayette, IN
1 edit | Re: Just Like the Electric Company! Why do I assume?
Because I understand the ECONOMICS of what is actually happening here. It's traditionally known as the "Tragedy of the Commons" and is VERY well understood and very applicable to the behavior of people in this situation.
See:
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons
Quote: "The "Tragedy of the Commons" is a structural relationship between free access to, and unrestricted demand for a finite resource."
Calling it a different business model DOES NOT change what is actually going on... that is, SOME users hog the pipe because there's NO ECONOMIC INCENTIVE to NOT DO OTHERWISE. If we all pay the same rate for a scarce resource (bandwidth, in this case) and are ALL FREE to take as much of that resource as we can grab, then SOME USERS will ABUSE THE PRIVILEDGE. This costs all of us, either in increased costs (above what we actually consume), or it will cost us in terms of degraded service (because the resource has been hogged).
If you believe that those that don't hog the pipe aren't subsidizing the heavier user then you are clueless. Calling it "oversubscribition" doesn't change the what and why of what is actually going on economically.
Until the ISPs find a way to bill according to usage - just like any other utility company - then this will continue to be a problem. Period.
What form that billing can/should take, I dunno. But ANYTHING resembling a pay-for-usage model would be better than what we have right now, and would most certainly result in better broadband coverage, services, and penetration for everyone (except those heavy users who would complain about having to pay for what they actually consume - they wouldn't like it, of course).
And, just so you know... I'm PROBABLY one of those heavy users: I have six children (three teenagers), 5 desktop PCs, several IPODs, etc. in my household. One of my sons and I are in the Information Systems business. We download A LOT! I'm perfectly happy to take responsibility for the bandwidth that I use when the ISPs get this figured out. The problem is that some heavy users (read: WHINERS) don't want to take that responsibility. They think everything should be flat rate, or even free (see: health care, etc.). They're in for a rude awakening as this economic model is simply not sustainable. | |
|  mackintire
join:2004-03-26 Pittsburgh, PA
| Bill by Byte Bill by byte could work....
Here is how....instead of offering 768/128 DSL for $14.95 a month unlimited. You offer 2.0Mbps/768 with a 30GB cap for $14.95 a month.
Instead of 1.5/768 for 29.99 unlimited, you offer 3.0/768 with a 200GB cap
And so on..... If the allowance is under your useage then the speed becomes the incentive.
I would love to have 300GB of 3.0/768 for 49.99 a month
When you go over your allocation give the customer the choice of auto purchasing more or throttling to 128/128 for the remainder of the billing period.
Problem solved. | |
|  |  mackintire
join:2004-03-26 Pittsburgh, PA
2 edits | Re: Bill by Byte Part of the reason I am so passionate about this is the fact that broadband in the US sucks.
I do not think that broadband should be offered in speeds under 2.0Mbps
The US internet as a whole averages 2.0Mbps.
Why not make the average the standard?
As an Example....
Sell it in chunks all at "best effort" speed 6.0Mbps/768
20GB per month $14.95
100GB per month $29.99
200GB per month $39.99
500GB per month $69.99
Unlimited $99.99
Metering is counted again downloading/ NOT Uploading
Mail is not counted.
If your infected with Spyware and Bots its going to eat your bill and force dumb users to be responsible.
Also someone above gave a trickle example. IF that persons ISP was billing by the byte they would have to pay extra to be able to afford to harass you. | |
|   SLD Premium join:2002-04-17 | Against the tide Why would broadband go to a usage-based fee schedule when all other services like cable, phone service, and even many cell plans are heading towards monthly plans? That is somewhat backwards thinking. | |
|  |   BF69
join:2004-07-28 Camden, TN
| Re: Against the tide said by SLD :Why would broadband go to a usage-based fee schedule when all other services like cable, phone service, and even many cell plans are heading towards monthly plans? That is somewhat backwards thinking. Show me a major cell company that doesn't charge you buy the minute or text or whatever? Sure you can get unlimited minutes adn etxing if you're willing to pay an outrageous amount. That doesn't count.
Last time I checked my electric, natural gas and water bill are all based on per unit usage. | |
|  |  |  st7860
join:2004-05-13 San Francisco, CA
| Re: Against the tide said by BF69 :said by SLD :Why would broadband go to a usage-based fee schedule when all other services like cable, phone service, and even many cell plans are heading towards monthly plans? That is somewhat backwards thinking. Show me a major cell company that doesn't charge you buy the minute or text or whatever? Sure you can get unlimited minutes adn etxing if you're willing to pay an outrageous amount. That doesn't count. Last time I checked my electric, natural gas and water bill are all based on per unit usage. globalstar offers unlimited usage in canada and the usa including telephone, internet, and its about $60 per month | |
|  |  |  |   SLD Premium join:2002-04-17 | Re: Against the tide Ha! | |
|   ftthz If love can kill hate can also save
join:2005-10-17 | charge by the byte... maybe I can be paid to view ads ... or maybe ads will be illegal cuz it cost $$$ to view | |
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