 Underplay
join:2003-10-19
Tacoma, WA | Excellent This should help us fight back against the ISP's. This is turning into a real dirty game of chess. Insurgents using software instead of guns, fighting for our rights. | |
|  | cmarin
join:2004-01-13
Boynton Beach, FL
| Re: Excellent said by Underplay  :This should help us fight back against the ISP's. This is turning into a real dirty game of chess. Insurgents using software instead of guns, fighting for our rights. hmmm... did they pass a new Ammendment while I was taking a dump? Last time I checked, broadband isn't a "right"... neither is stealing music and movies over P2P. Let's face it, a great deal of the piracy happens over P2P, no matter what other "legit" uses there are, this is the primary vehicle for theft. If Comcast resets the connection of some punk abuser thief so the rest of us can enjoy our speedy connections, so be it. I'm no Comcast fanboy, since my cable company was Adelphia for many years and only recently Comcast due to the bankruptcy settlement... but I have to say things have only improved since they've taken over.
I pay less now than I did then, have dozens more TV channels, surf at twice the speed I had before, and it is generally more reliable than Adelphia ever was. | |
| | | WrzWrz
join:2002-08-23
Fort Thomas, KY
edit:
March 26th, @11:40AM
| Re: Excellent Please cite a case where copyright infringement was ruled as being theft in a U.S. court of law. Provide a case number if possible. Thank you. | |
| | | | | | | SilverSurfer
join:2007-08-19
| said by cmarin : Let's face it, a great deal of the piracy happens over P2P, no matter what other "legit" uses there are, this is the primary vehicle for theft. Let's face it. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. | |
| | | Underplay
join:2003-10-19
Tacoma, WA
| said by cmarin :said by Underplay :This should help us fight back against the ISP's. This is turning into a real dirty game of chess. Insurgents using software instead of guns, fighting for our rights. hmmm... did they pass a new Ammendment while I was taking a dump? Last time I checked, broadband isn't a "right"... neither is stealing music and movies over P2P. Let's face it, a great deal of the piracy happens over P2P, no matter what other "legit" uses there are, this is the primary vehicle for theft. If Comcast resets the connection of some punk abuser thief so the rest of us can enjoy our speedy connections, so be it. I'm no Comcast fanboy, since my cable company was Adelphia for many years and only recently Comcast due to the bankruptcy settlement... but I have to say things have only improved since they've taken over. I pay less now than I did then, have dozens more TV channels, surf at twice the speed I had before, and it is generally more reliable than Adelphia ever was. Maybe you haven't heard the term, "get what you pay for". Simply put, we are all paying for our connection at the advertised speeds, and that is what we should be getting.
Maybe you are not familiar with azures fuze, its a bittorrent client with a built in media library, that lets users share videos, using there own bandwidth. It's actually pretty revolutionary.
You are trying to say that if i were to upload my own LEGAL video to this network, then my paid connection should be throttled just because it uses the bit torrent protocol, and SOME people use this protocol for piracy.
Maybe you have it shoveled into your head that Bittorrent and P2P is the evil devil, but you seriously need to rethink your opinion. Have you ever heard of rapidshare before? or how about FTP. These services can and ARE being used for illegal purposes just as commonly as bittorrent is. So why aren't the ISP's throttling these services?
Comcast is throttling bittorrent and uploading, NOT for piracy, NOT for you. But for themselves. Never before has the upstream been used for such a purpose and used so commonly, and its killing there network. So they are stopping all of us from using what we have paid for. So they can make some more bucks by not upgrading there infrastructure and forming to the wants of the people. | |
| | | | TIGERON
join:2008-03-11
Pacifica, CA | Re: Excellent THANK YOU!!! Finally there is somebody that has their head on the right way. | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 
Skeedatl
To Provoke and Annoy
Premium
join:2007-12-26
Laguna Hills, CA
edit:
March 26th, @02:17PM
| Re: Excellent And your point is, sorry I'm missing it. | |
| | | | | | | | 
dadkins
I Don't Care
Premium,MVM
join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA
 ·Comcast
| Re: Excellent said by Skeedatl :And your point is? Downloading/sharing/uploading LEGAL items via BT protocol are getting hosed because of a blanket "Network Management" claim, but that same network can/will/is getting saturated via other means and this is ok and gets a free pass.
Horseshit!
I could send you a 4-25-50GB file right this second and max the crap out of my upload - for a while.
No BS Sandvine would be involved - would it?
Screw protocol... same network, same max speed.
Does this make sense? 
--
Think outside the Fox... Opera | |
| | | | | | | | |
Skeedatl
To Provoke and Annoy
Premium
join:2007-12-26
Laguna Hills, CA | Re: Excellent Yep. | |
| | | | ditka_b
Premium
join:2001-10-05
Barrington, IL | Bull lol | |
| | | nasadude
join:2001-10-05
Rockville, MD
·Comcast
| said by cmarin :... Last time I checked, broadband isn't a "right"... neither is stealing music and movies over P2P. Let's face it, a great deal of the piracy happens over P2P, no matter what other "legit" uses there are, this is the primary vehicle for theft. If Comcast resets the connection of some punk abuser thief so the rest of us can enjoy our speedy connections, so be it... Wow. I haven't seen that many RIAA/MPAA talking points in one paragraph in quite a while.
are these so ingrained that you know them by heart, or did you have to refresh your memory from the RIAA web page? | |
| | | | 
bentman78
Bentley
join:2004-04-16
Arlington, VA | Re: Excellent as opposed to talking points allocating stealing and copyright infringement being justified because you are "getting what you paid for"? | |
| | | | TheGhost
Premium
join:2003-01-03
Lake Forest, IL
clubs:
| said by nasadude :said by cmarin :... Last time I checked, broadband isn't a "right"... neither is stealing music and movies over P2P. Let's face it, a great deal of the piracy happens over P2P, no matter what other "legit" uses there are, this is the primary vehicle for theft. If Comcast resets the connection of some punk abuser thief so the rest of us can enjoy our speedy connections, so be it... Wow. I haven't seen that many RIAA/MPAA talking points in one paragraph in quite a while. are these so ingrained that you know them by heart, or did you have to refresh your memory from the RIAA web page? Users here have brought up LEGAL content that is getting hosed (VUZE). | |
| | | | | | | | 
evilghost
join:2003-11-22
Springville, AL
 ·Windstream
edit:
March 26th, @01:05PM
| I'm with you on this one cmarin. I find it hard to believe that so many of these people screaming out in agony of QoS and traffic shaping of P2P technology are downloading Linux ISO's and OpenOffice ISOs.
I'm not going to argue the semantics of copyright infringement versus theft. What I will say is people who are screaming so loudly, what legal content are you downloading? What infringing content are you downloading?
Throttle/RST the pirate and give me back my latency and aggregate bandwidth. I've little tolerance for someone who saturates the network with P2P-powered infringement. | |
| | | | FiL
join:2005-08-16
Silver Spring, MD
| Re: Excellent uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...
Where you want me to start? Oh, I know... 
I'm musician slash producer. I like to be up to date with the lastest audio hardware and software. I download huge instructional videos, sometimes done on home cameras, sometimes done in video studios, and learn how to setup hardware, patch software... hell, a friend of mine made a 2 hour instructional piano video JUST FOR ME to DL via bitorrent becuase 7 to 8 of my other buddies online helped the motherfucker make it and helped the motherfucker upload, to who? To me... lol. Now if this isn't a legal use for BT, then I truly DON'T know how to create a drum kit in less then a minute.... shit. | |
| | | | lordofwhee
join:2007-10-21
Everett, WA
| What happens when ALL connections are throttled? What happens when, no matter what you're doing, you are allotted only so many connections to the outside world?
And, once again, the talking point of 'all/most P2P is piracy' is brought up. Even if it was 100% pirated content, that gives nobody the right to effectively block half a protocol. If the content nazis want to go sue a twelve-year-old over it, that's their choice, not the ISP's. | |
| | | mach_six
join:2002-05-09
Nutley, NJ | I can't imagine people who defend these companies actually notices slow internet. It's apparent the provider is the issue. Always easier to put blame on something else rather than fixing the problem. | |
| 
ropeguru
Premium
join:2001-01-25
Hollywood, FL
clubs: | Next up... Comcast institutes traffic shaping to Vuze's network because the sharing of the plug-in data to Vuze is a detriment to Comcast's network. | |
| | ShadezeRO
join:2006-04-24
Fort Lauderdale, FL | Re: Next up... I don't agree.
I think you can categorize the plug-in with speed tests, or ping utilities.
It's not really intrusive, or altering packets. | |
| | |
ropeguru
Premium
join:2001-01-25
Hollywood, FL
clubs: | Re: Next up... But they will argue that it is a detriment to their network because it will be exposing their torrent shaping practices.
Remember that they are of the mind set that what they believe is what really is. | |
| | travelguy
join:1999-09-03
Albuquerque, NM
| said by ropeguru :Comcast institutes traffic shaping to Vuze's network because the sharing of the plug-in data to Vuze is a detriment to Comcast's network. No, it's a threat to Comcast's business model - not the same thing at all. | |
| 
StumpMan
Premium
join:2001-07-26
Clinton, NC
| UGH! You're right. I apologize for stealing the internet connection to download BitTorrent updates for my Linux PCs.
You know, there are legitimate uses for BitTorrent, and P2P programs.
You are like the people blocking and throttling the traffic, labeling everyone as a thief. | |
| | Cjaiceman
join:2004-10-12
Englewood, CO
·Comcast
| Re: UGH! said by StumpMan :You're right. I apologize for stealing the internet connection to download BitTorrent updates for my Linux PCs. You know, there are legitimate uses for BitTorrent, and P2P programs. You are like the people blocking and throttling the traffic, labeling everyone as a thief. You mean that I can't download legit files using BitTorrent technology on the internet connection that I am paying good money for?!?! Well then I am also sorry for allowing WoW to get that 300MB file through BitTorrent. I promise that I won't do it again if you don't tell anybody /sarcasm  | |
| | |
ropeguru
Premium
join:2001-01-25
Hollywood, FL
clubs: | Re: UGH! No, you can't. Remember that Comcast and other large corporations make their own rules until the govt. steps in and smacks them down. | |
| | | gateguy
Premium
join:2001-02-12
Reisterstown, MD
·Comcast
| In your specific example, World of Warcraft patching, Comcast saves a bunch of money by the clients using BitTorrent. Using BitTorrent, I am downloading most of the patch from neighbors and other users of Comcast.
If Comcast, kills BitTorrent on their network, I would love to see them have to pay for ALL of the data to come across their network.
Priceless. | |
| | | | DemonicLlama
join:2007-11-19
Potomac, MD | Re: UGH! They're not really gunna pay it. It'll be a rate increase on your end or more fees. | |
| | 
nocando
@comcast.net
| nocando Try downloading a 3 gig World of Warcraft client with Comcast in the background flicking the switch off and on. The downloader uses a p2p downloading scheme and it just gets hosed. Ok so p2p is the highway thieves drive on, but their idea of policing the problems is just stop everyone. Lets offer high speed internet and slow down and throttle downloads. Sheesh talk about double standards. | |
| |
See 19 replies to this post | |
Nightshade
Beware the Blue Rabbit
Premium
join:2002-05-26
Salem, OR
edit:
March 26th, @05:00PM
| Plugin Useful But Don't Expect Anything To Come About It This plugin can be useful for informative purposes but don't expect Comcast and others who throttle BitTorrent to change their ways because of it. At most, there might be new encryption or uploading methods that will come about with the information the plugin will gather. Let's face it, it's always going to be a cat and mouse game until:
The FCC says to cut it out.
Potential lawsuits won that say to cut it out. Which in that case all the ISP has to do is change their TOS.
Network neutrality laws being passed that might deal with the issue.
I have always thought that throttling was a bad idea, it is like taking a butcher knife to where only a scalpel is needed. The ISPs scalpel tool is to simply kick the hogs off. It would be a lot easier to do, less expensive to maintain, and not leave a bad taste in customer's mouths because the only ones to be affected is the hogs and no one else. Why should everyone have to suffer when using a ISP service for only a few who decide to spoil it all for everyone? ISPs do have the right to manage their networks, after all they own it. But they could of done a more precise approach which I am sure everyone would of been more agreeable with. | |
| | | cmarin
join:2004-01-13
Boynton Beach, FL
| Re: No "theft" said by dadkins :See this image? Everything here is LEGAL! There are pages of free - LEGAL videos to download. There are even pay videos(like BBC)...  There is no "theft" happening here. There is no Copyright Infringement happening either - It's LEGAL! But... Comcast is fucking off *ALL* seeding - period! So, I can download(for now, until I get banned for not seeding) any of these items but I cannot give back? Yeah... ok.   Again, its not whether the content is legal or not. Its the fact that the technology you're using to enjoy the content is not allowed by the terms of service you agreed to. | |
| | | | | | fuziwuzi
join:2005-07-01
Atlanta, GA
·Comcast
| said by cmarin :Again, its not whether the content is legal or not. Its the fact that the technology you're using to enjoy the content is not allowed by the terms of service you agreed to. As the customer, I should have the ability to change the TOS whenver I feel like it just as much as Comcast does. When I signed up for Comcast there was no mention of "file sharing" being prohibited. None. I checked. The agreement when I signed did not make any such statement. So I have no guilt whatsoever that I use "file sharing" software LEGALLY on their network and know how to bypass their idiotic throttling attempts. I pay for the service I use, it says I have 6mbps downstream and 384kbps upstream, so I'm using that upstream as I see fit. If they cut it off, I cut them off and go with someone else.
Just because they're too ignorant or cheap (or both) to make their network able to keep up with technology and other business models, does not give them the right to punish the customer and dictate how other businesses should operate. | |
| | ShadezeRO
join:2006-04-24
Fort Lauderdale, FL
·AT&T Southeast
| said by dadkins :See this image? But... Comcast is fucking off *ALL* seeding - period! So, I can download(for now, until I get banned for not seeding) any of these items but I cannot give back? Yeah... ok. You can download for now...Until you hit your invisible download caps. | |
| JoshC1
join:2007-09-25
Sanford, NC
| Why... Is everyone getting so wrapped up with p2p? Smart people know and make the connection that p2p is just a smokescreen for what Comcast really wants for the future; eventually sites such as youtube and anything else that falls under "reasonable network management" will be throttled. Why does Comcast throttle using this method? I just don't understand that part of this HUGE issue. Why not boot the small percentage of hogs who saturate the network? If they can afford sandavine, then why not this? Why does Comcast throttle at all?
1) resistance to upgrading infrastructure?
2) Reasonable network management?
3) Keep people happy by giving the consumer advertised speed? (it is a greedy corp., so idk about this one)
Please somebody inform me. I don't want to hear ANY talk about p2p because that is WAY TOO NARROW. I want a broad picture from any of you fellow forumers of why Comcast is using this method, or why they even throttle at all. UNBIASED OPINIONS PLEASE. I want facts to support your assumptions, not opinions please.
Why am I asking? I need TRUTH about this subject. | |
| |
Nightshade
Beware the Blue Rabbit
Premium
join:2002-05-26
Salem, OR
edit:
March 26th, @06:49PM
| Re: Why... JoshC1, I have been asking the same questions myself. Maybe there is something more to the whole throttling thing, maybe there is not. I mean for me, I'd just kick the hogs off. I do have a theory though based on my own observations.
I think why Comcast throttles is that it is resistant to upgrading infrastructure and would rather overload their network than increase capacity. That, and I seriously honestly think they do not have a realistic model and view of internet usage.
I am going to deviate a little off the subject but I think you'll see why. You don't see just this case in their HSI, but also in their HD. Just recently they started to put three HD channels into each 38.8Mbps QAM, reducing the quality of their own HD channels by over compression. The reason why they are doing this is that they are waiting for DOCSIS 3.0 to come out. But DOCSIS 3.0 will not fix the HD because DOCSIS 3.0 was designed for allocating and combining data channels for internet access, not TV. So, unless Comcast upgrades their equipment, expect Comcast HD to be horrible. This is just an example of Comcast overloading their HD and "throttling" it by over compression, while attempting to add more HD channels. All for something that may not even be able to fix the problem in the first place. You can take this same thing and apply it to their HSI. No matter how much you throttle traffic, it will always be a band-aid solution that will never address the problems, the bandwidth hogs, and every Comcast customer suffers because of it.
DOCSIS 3.0 will do wonders for the HSI part. I hope that Comcast will take advantage of that, after all they seem to be all the buzz about it. But if Comcast doesn't seriously take another look at their network with a more realistic approach, especially with DOCSIS 3.0 coming out very soon, and deal with the network hogs then they are just all talk and no walk. We should know by the end of the year.
True Happiness Must Come From Within | |
| | travelguy
join:1999-09-03
Albuquerque, NM
| said by JoshC1 :eventually sites such as youtube and anything else that falls under "reasonable network management" will be throttled. Why does Comcast throttle using this method? I just don't understand that part of this HUGE issue. It's been said many times before, but I'll reiterate: Comcast and other retail bandwidth providers are scared to death of being dumb pipes. They want to collect a toll on every bit on top of what they collect from the end subscriber. In other words, the cellular model where both parties pay. P2P services interfere with that model, so they must be stopped. | |
| | 
aaron83_01
I can't get myself to go away.
join:2005-01-03
Clarkston, WA
·CableOne
| Another lame analogy To all those who agree with the throttling of the bittorent protocol:
Some people use Honda Accords for trafficking marijuana; does that mean all Honda Accords should only be allowed to go half the posted speed limit, while all other cars are allowed to travel unimpeded? The Accord driver pays the same taxes that go towards the roads, and pays the same fees for his vehicle's and driver's licenses, so shouldn't the Accord be allowed to travel the same roads at the same speeds as everyone else?
--
There comes a point in your life when you get tired of fixing everything and wiping everyone's ass. But it’s not giving up. It’s realizing that you don’t need certain people and the bullshit and drama they bring to your life. | |
|
casvdry
@comcast.net
| Basic That is such a basic analogy that it is much easier to just say: "I pay the same fees as you do, I should get the same access as you"
In the end, cmarin is right. That doesn't mean I agree with him. It doesn't mean that I agree with Comcast. Unfortunately for a lot of end users (Me and you) taking our business elsewhere isn't an option. What, with 16/2 speeds and all. I am fortunate enough to have Verizon as another option, some people aren't this fortunate.
The speeds aren't quite as nice either (ADSL, no FIOS), but if bittorrent was a major issue for me, I'd probably be jumping ship to Verizon.
As I said, some people don't have this choice and I think Comcast realizes this. I would not doubt that they have more stringent policies on markets where no clear broadband alternatives are available.
I have usually found a way around each roadblock that I am presented with decreased bittorrent availability. If I wanted a game patch through WoW I'd instead go the HTTP route. It's not quite as convenient and it's pretty bad to bog down the servers with so much traffic for a game patch.
It's an issue of passing the buck really. Comcast doesn't want it all and likewise, server and website operators don't want it all.
In the end though, the ball is in Comcast or court. Bickering does nothing to resolve the problem. In our own minds, the practice is down right wrong. In Comcasts mind, they see it as what they need to do, in order to protect their network.
It's really a matter of forseeing the future. We all know that the Internet is slowly building up to an overload mode. Content and their accompanying file sizes are increasing faster than most carries can deliver it, being technologically bound or practically, they are stifled.
So I imagine bittorrent shaping/forgery to prevent this one method of mass media distribution is a huge way to cut costs and still deliver what over 90% of users need who sign up for internet in the first place.
This is a necessary evil to them. We know it and they know it. They cannot hardly sit back and throttle back HTTP connections or media traversing the basic protocols (Imagine the outcry) but what they CAN limit, they ARE limiting. They also do not want to go the hard cap route. It's bad PR and it won't get you new subscribers. | |
| | cmarin
join:2004-01-13
Boynton Beach, FL
| Re: Basic said by casvdry :
That is such a basic analogy that it is much easier to just say: "I pay the same fees as you do, I should get the same access as you"
In the end, cmarin is right. That doesn't mean I agree with him. It doesn't mean that I agree with Comcast.
Just to be PERFECTLY CLEAR... I think I'm right on this, but I don't agree with it either. I wish it was more open and that these stupid restrictions weren't in place. My grandfather is an "old school" attorney and judge and taught me early on to look at things from a legal point of view. With this very strict view, we all have to agree that the ToS rules.
Those who say that their ToS didn't prohibit this when they signed up have no argument either. The ToS can change at any time and you can agree or not with it. If you don't, you can opt out and vote with your wallet. Every time the ToS has been ammended, I've gotten a copy of the changes as an insert in my monthly bill, so I can't claim ignorance.
In the end, we're dealing with a giant corporation and they have enough lawyers on staff to make sure they are well protected. If we want to play ball in their court, we've got to do it using their racquets, net, and rules. Do I like it? HELL NO. Do I accept it as it is my only alternative? Regrettably so. | |
| | | fuziwuzi
join:2005-07-01
Atlanta, GA
·Comcast
| Re: Basic said by cmarin :In the end, we're dealing with a giant corporation and they have enough lawyers on staff to make sure they are well protected. If we want to play ball in their court, we've got to do it using their racquets, net, and rules. Do I like it? HELL NO. Do I accept it as it is my only alternative? Regrettably so. And in the meantime I have no guilt when I "screw" them with any means I have available because they sure don't mind "screwing" their customers whenever they see fit. Why should I show any loyalty or respect to them when they have none for me? | |
| 
antdude
A Ninja Ant
Premium,VIP
join:2001-03-25
edit:
March 27th, @04:42PM
| Adelphia? Wiki mentions Adelphia. Adelphia is like gone. | |
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Azureus Plugin Can Detect ISP BitTorrent Shenanigans
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good
