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Chiyo
Save Me Konata-Chan
Premium
join:2003-02-20
Minneapolis, MN
clubs:
 ·Comcast
| I've called 911 before and I've had not a single issue, I think if these people even bother to login to there online accont page they get a ton of notices saying SETUP YOUR 911 service. I don't blame vonage I blame the mother who is looking for an excuse.
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"Sure there have been injuries and deaths in boxing - but none of them serious."- Alan Minter, Boxer"I get to go to lots of overseas places, like Canada."- Britney Spears, Pop Singer | |
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FLECOM
Bay Networks Freak
Premium
join:2003-03-03
Miami, FL | hrmm... chilly finger? Did she find a finger in her chilli too?  | |
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ColdFiltered
join:2005-01-25
Atlanta, GA
| Re: hrmm... chilly finger? Its easier to blame someone else than yourself. Who is to say the child would have lived even if a POTS/911 call had been placed, too? Also, it was the parents fault for buying into VoIP as I do not remember seeing Vonage Squads going door-to-door threatening people's lives if they stayed with POTS.
I bet she killed the child! | |
| | | stufried
Premium
join:2003-10-13
 ·Verizon BroadbandA..
| Re: hrmm... chilly finger? I have the Vonage partial 911 solution active and told my wife about it when I did it. I also told her that she was better using our other line or a cellphone to call 911. We did not have any disaster or problem, but when I reminded her of this the other day she flat out denied being told.
I think that many spouses often hear any technical discussion as white noise and we get "yes deared." Without any issues of who is right, I think that the VOIP users out there might want to take five minutes and brief their families on this point.
At the same time, I don't think Vonage should be held accountable for anything. With respect to the mother, any time you lose a child it is real tough. It is easy to lash out. I just hope her lawyer loses.
Stu | |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Sterilize and Jail the Parents... ... for not taking responsibility for ensuring real 911 access by using a POTS line. Vonage and other VoIP providers make it very clear that their 911 service is not the same as POTS-provided 911 service. The baby's death is partly the fault of the parents who didn't bother to fully research the potential problems with VoIP-based 911 service. You would think when you see a big red label on a web page explaining that 911 with VoIP has to be set up manually and that it isn't the same as POTS-based 911 service, one would think... hmmm.... is this the best thing for me?
Its idiots like these who will sue the US tech industry out of the country.
I know that once I have kids, the first thing I will do is get the cheapest POTS-based line (even as much as I hate the telegraph companies) just for proper 911 access should it be needed.
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Hey Fast Eddie... you're next! | |
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Murray3
join:2001-03-06
Texas
| Re: Sterilize and Jail the Parents... said by pnh102  :I know that once I have kids, the first thing I will do is get the cheapest POTS-based line (even as much as I hate the telegraph companies) just for proper 911 access should it be needed. Exactly what I have done. | |
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Alphabyte
join:2001-02-20
Edwardsville, IL
clubs: | Re: Sterilize and Jail the Parents... You don't even need a land line for proper 911. An cell phone that turns on is required to let calls go throught to 911 regardless if it's activated or not.
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Proud President of Riverbend Enterprises, LLC. | |
| | | | cbs228
Geeks Of The World, Unite
join:2000-09-04
Saint Louis, MO | Re: Sterilize and Jail the Parents... Cellular 911 is almost as bad as Vonage 911. The PSAP operators do not get any location data, and if you are near the county border your call could be routed to the wrong PSAP entirely. | |
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calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| Re: Sterilize and Jail the Parents... ...or in California, you would be routed to the state highway patrol, who will sometimes let you wait in a queue and then try to figure out which PSAP you should really be connected to....
calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! | |
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Murray3
join:2001-03-06
Texas
| said by Alphabyte :You don't even need a land line for proper 911. An cell phone that turns on is required to let calls go throught to 911 regardless if it's activated or not. That's true. For some of us though, we don't get good cell phone coverage from our homes, though we're able to have a reliable POTS line. | |
| | | | LoftyDan
join:2002-10-22
Victoria, BC
·Shaw
 ·AT&T DSL Service
| As much as I like to point that fact out to people (as a reason to not dispose of old cell phones), I've never actually gotten through with 911 on a cell phone during the day time. First time, I let the phone redial for over 5 minutes, never to get through, only then thinking to call 411 and ask for the CHP. Second time, I did so much quicker... I think any VoIP service, as well as cell phones, should have the emergency number stored as a preset. | |
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Murray3
join:2001-03-06
Texas
| Re: Sterilize and Jail the Parents... said by Vchat20 :to improve upon your idea, last i heard, POTS lines are supposed to constantly have a dial tone regardless of whether service is activated on it or not. difference is, if not activated, only basic 911 access and (sometimes) calls to the phone company's customer support/etc. numbers go through. You are correct. At least it has worked this way in my experience. | |
| | | | | chzdhippt
join:2004-06-30
Orange Beach, AL
| In regards to all POTS lines having dialtone, this is incorrect. The requirement is that all lines with dialtone be able to call 911, and normally, companies will also connect misdials to a sales dept (to encourage sales). Non-activated lines do not necessarily have dialtone. | |
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Vchat20
Landing is the REAL challenge
join:2003-09-16
Warren, OH
clubs: 
| Re: Sterilize and Jail the Parents... well, all i know is that in our area, when our bill gets to the past due point and they "shut off" our phone, we still have a dial tone for about a week and then it gets completely shut off.
in regards to my original reply, i didn't say ALL lines HAVE to have a dial tone, i said they are supposed to have them last i heard. regardless, i think that all POTS lines should have dial tones regardless of whether its activated or not simply for 911 usage.
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Alec Trebek: Well, all you had to do was write down a number. And you wrote... Threeve. A combination of three and five. Simply stunning. And you wagered... Texas with a dollar sign in front of it. I'm speechless. | |
| | BosstonesOwn
join:2002-12-15
Everett, MA
clubs:
·Comcast
| I agree , people pass the responsibility to others in this country way to much. I foresee a lawsuit in which she will probably be paid very well, and vonage may be put into a hole for.
People wonder why so many companies are off shoring and doing all they can to cut costs. Lawsuits and stock holders are a major reason why it has to be done, they all want good returns and even better service.
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"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!" | |
| | | | | BosstonesOwn
join:2002-12-15
Everett, MA
clubs:
·Comcast
| Re: Sterilize and Jail the Parents... said by Jim Gurd :I would never be without a POTS line until VoIP can provide me with the same level of service for 911. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it true that VoIP 911 calls go to a different call center and are not E-911 capable (i.e. they don't show your phone number and address automatically if you can't talk)? Right now I don't trust VoIP. I can get (reasonably) cheap POTS service from Talk America. No and Yes. Different call centers yes , e-911 incompatible no (at least in most cases)
VoIP providers maintain a database of your info which when the server that holds your number to ip translation is checked also checks if it is a 911 call if so all your billing info is sent to the call center which fills in their screen like caller id. Which is then transferred to the local emergency service to you.
E-911 does the same with cell phones, except now with cell phones they triangulate off many towers around you to get the spot where you are. The more antenna's respond the closer they can come to finding you.
VoIP however does not have that ability. What is done is a trace to the router/gateway ahead of you and ping plotted to make sure it's not a bad call and as that is being done your VoIP provider sends them your billing info which is assumed to be your street info.
Vonage however has the system in place but you must double check to make sure it's right and to set it up properly since Vonage doesn't know your specifics. This is why there is 80 pages on Vonage web site with the big red label.
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"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!" | |
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dispatcher21
join:2004-01-22
united state
| Re: Sterilize and Jail the Parents... Only a different call center if 911 and non emergecny are handled by different centers. I work for a dispatch center that handles all calls, emergency and non emergency. So in this case, we would get it no matter what. Granted, if the non emergency line and 911 rings at the same time, the 911 gets priority, but the dispatcher should still answer the non emergency line to make sure they indeed dont have an emergency after the 911 call is done with or at least stablized. And I wouldnt trust a cell phone for 911. Depending on where you are, and other factors, you could reach a PSAP that is not even close to where you are. Not only that but depending on the cell providers network conditions or tower problems, sometimes we cant understand you because of the call dropping or severe static, and if you cant tell us where you are, we cant help you. Now yes phase 2 wireless with lat/long is out there but very few PSAP's have been upgraded to use this. Not only do we need a phase 2 compliant phone system, but also a phase 2 CAD system and a mapping program, all of this is big bucks. We use Positron Power 911 for 5 consoles and that was over $150,000.00. The CAD cost over $250,000.00 (for initial cost, I believe upgrade to phase 2 was a lot cheaper) and mapping was over $35,000.00. As you can see, not many agencies will have the money to upgrade. Add to this the fact that cell companies are not even close to having even 80% success rate with phase 2 info and cell phones start to look as bad as VoIP. The safest bet is a landline period. | |
| | | | | BosstonesOwn
join:2002-12-15
Everett, MA
clubs:
·Comcast
| Re: Sterilize and Jail the Parents... I am surprised that they have not upgraded the mapping systems yet. Our area already has it set up and running. Maybe just my area/market is phase 2 set but i know right now optimization of the market here is nearly complete for 2 providers.
I also do a gree landline is the safest.
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"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!" | |
| | | | sektor1952
join:2001-02-28
Palm Coast, FL | You forgot about the e-mails vonage sends you when you first sign up for the service to remind you to setup 911 service. | |
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ColdFiltered
join:2005-01-25
Atlanta, GA
| Does anyone remember the court decision a few months back against a drug-addict women? The court ordered her to not have anymore children as the many she already had were in foster-care because she, obviously, couldn't take care of them.
I'd have gutted her as my 'court' decision. We have to have a license to drive and fish, but not one to breed. | |
| | | BosstonesOwn
join:2002-12-15
Everett, MA
clubs:
·Comcast
| Re: Sterilize and Jail the Parents... said by ColdFiltered :Does anyone remember the court decision a few months back against a drug-addict women? The court ordered her to not have anymore children as the many she already had were in foster-care because she, obviously, couldn't take care of them. I'd have gutted her as my 'court' decision. We have to have a license to drive and fish, but not one to breed. Don't forget to hunt, even to buy a gun which is in the constitution as a right.
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"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!" | |
| | | lawrence171
Evilly Yours - Evilness
join:2001-12-24
Canada
| Ugh... what right does that woman have to make another suffer endlessly because of her own stupidity/incompetence?
The court makes decision base on what's best for society and/or the individuals involved. Can you honestly tell me that such a mother will give birth to healthy babies? | |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: Sterilize and Jail the Parents... said by lawrence171 :Ugh... what right does that woman have to make another suffer endlessly because of her own stupidity/incompetence? As long as the law allows for such stupid lawsuits to proceed, they will never end. I think if we change the presumption of guilt that goes with civil lawsuits (e.g, the idiot would have to prove Vonage screwed up as opposed to Vonage having to prove that it didn't screw up) we would see a significant drop in the amount of money paid out in damages.
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Hey Fast Eddie... you're next! | |
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Jason Levine
Premium
join:2001-07-13
USA
| Re: Sterilize and Jail the Parents... I agree. One of my neighbors asked me about getting "Digital Phone" service from Time Warner. It's being advertised here like crazy and she was considering it. I told her that I'd recommend against it due to various VoIP/TW-Digital Phone issues (power failure = loss of phone service, cable outage = loss of phone service, 911 service which isn't as good as POTS).
A year ago this July, my son (then 11 months old) spiked a 103+ fever and had a grand mal seizure. He stopped responding and even stopped breathing. We panicked (obviously as any parent would if their kid stopped breathing -- we actually thought he was dead at one point) but had enough presence of mind to call 911. The operator got an ambulance through to us right away.
Apparently, the magic words were "infant" and "stopped breathing" because five minutes later there was an ambulance in front of our house and emergency personnel giving my son oxygen. (He had started breathing on his own before they arrived.) As a side note, never have his screams of panic sounded so sweet as they meant that he was still alive.
Turns out that he had Coxsackie virus and the spiking fever made him have a febrile convulsion. It also turns out that febrile convulsions are rarely harmful and my son was ok in the end. (Still, try telling a parent whose baby stops responding and then starts twitching and turning blue that their baby will be ok.)
Still, at the time it seemed like his life was at stake and, having had that experience, I wouldn't go with VoIP for the 911 issue alone. 911 is something that should just work. It should need to be configured by the end user. The advertisements for "digital phone service" are very misleading. VoIP is being touted as nothing more than an inexpensive version of a normal phone line when in fact it's a completely different beast with it's own quirks.
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-Jason Levine
http://www.jasons-toolbox.com/
http://www.PCQandA.com/
http://www.urateit.com/ | |
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phattieg
join:2001-04-29
Winter Park, FL
·Verizon Wireless B..
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
| Why VoIP has no TRUE 911... The reason there is no true 911 is because not all the Telephone companies feel they should help a service that is not regulated and taxed as they are. It's a battle for "WHO CAN WE GET MONEY FROM NOW"... You see, in order for 911 to work, it REQUIRES the phone network to terminate to a CAMA trunk in your local CO (Central Office). Most CO's won't let the VoIP provider put a Gateway switch in your local CO, so they have to do the next best thing, terminate the call to the PSAP, who then finds the correct CAMA trunk to connect the call thru. Now cell phones, thats a different story. Since they are regulated, they have to by law offer 911. They also, by law, have to allow a competitor access to their CAMA trunks in each CO to make 911 work. I think if the Phone company (pigs) would play fair, people wouldn't HAVE to lose lives to VoIP service. | |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: Sterilize and Jail the Parents... There were a couple of friends of mine who just had their first child who were in the same position. They had been considering VoIP until I mentioned to them the 911 issue. Its just not worth the risk and no amount of cost savings will change that.
I am sure though that if they actually saw the big red labels or even the fine print indicating that 911 didn't work as we all expect it to that they would have reconsidered. I feel like I only pushed up the inevitable.
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Hey Fast Eddie... you're next! | |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| said by PhoenixDown :I get see the VOIP advertisements all the time and if you didn't know better, you would almost swear thats the service is being provided over POTS in some cases and I never saw any of them mention that 911 might be an 'issue'. It is very misleading. You're right about this. All of these advertisements should make it clear that 911 service doesn't work like POTS-based 911. But its still the parents' responsibility to find out these things when they consider making the switch from POTS to VoIP.
I am surprised that POTS providers have not capitalized on this problem by advertising that their product works perfectly with 911.
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Hey Fast Eddie... you're next! | |
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Jason Levine
Premium
join:2001-07-13
USA
| Re: Sterilize and Jail the Parents... said by pnh102 :I am surprised that POTS providers have not capitalized on this problem by advertising that their product works perfectly with 911. The POTS companies probably either don't see VoIP as a threat just yet or want to keep their options open should they decide to enter the market. If they were to proclaim "VoIP is dangerous and doesn't support 911 properly" they would:
A) raise VoIP as an alternative in people's minds should 911 service not be a priority and
B) make VoIP seem less desirable to those who value 911 service (thus turning those customers away from the POTS companies' possible future VoIP products).
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-Jason Levine
http://www.jasons-toolbox.com/
http://www.PCQandA.com/
http://www.urateit.com/ | |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: Sterilize and Jail the Parents... said by Jason Levine :A) raise VoIP as an alternative in people's minds should 911 service not be a priority and True, but you don't even have to mention VoIP (or cellular) alternatives to 911. You could probably see James Earl Jones say something like "Insist on genuine Verizon telephone service for your family's peace of mind" or something like that.
said by Jason Levine :B) make VoIP seem less desirable to those who value 911 service (thus turning those customers away from the POTS companies' possible future VoIP products). It wouldn't be the first time a company "competed against itself" so I don't think this would be a big deal. If an existing POTS customer switched to a telegraph company's VoIP service or if the POTS customer retained traditional telegraph service, the phone company would still be making money.
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Hey Fast Eddie... you're next! | |
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Storm72
join:2003-07-03
Bourbonnais, IL
clubs:
1 edit | said by pnh102 :Its idiots like these who will sue the US tech industry out of the country. I know that once I have kids, the first thing I will do is get the cheapest POTS-based line (even as much as I hate the telegraph companies) just for proper 911 access should it be needed. Don't forget the money-grubbing lawyers who are all too happy to help idiots like this continue to clog the courts with countless numbers of frivolous lawsuits.
As a parent, I think you're dead-on about having a POTS line as a backup. Since I have a security system I do have a POTS line, but my wife and I pretty much use our mobiles for making and receiving calls. We're also entertaining the possibility of going with VoIP, but no matter what we end up doing, we're still going to hang on to our scaled-down POTS line for the foreseeable future. | |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: Sterilize and Jail the Parents... said by PhoenixDown :The bottom line is that 911 needs to be reliable regardless of whether its over VOIP or a cell phone. It does, but it's not. While we may not have any control over this, we need to understand that when it comes to the safety of our families, we need to research and make the right choice for the purposes of dialing 911 when its needed.
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Hey Fast Eddie... you're next! | |
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Tomek
Premium
join:2002-01-30
Brooklyn, NY
 ·Packet8
| Money It's all about money. Her baby died and now she hopes to get extra cash from that accident. 911 operators should have call logs or something to verify. And then everybody has some kind of alternate ways of communication, cell phones, POTS, neighbors.
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Semper Fidelis | |
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Bitey
Premium
join:2002-06-14 | Don't infants read disclamers anymore? What a world! | |
| | BosstonesOwn
join:2002-12-15
Everett, MA
clubs:
·Comcast
| Re: Don't infants read disclamers anymore? said by Bitey :What a world! It's the parent/guardians responsibility not any one else. Vonage has made it clear on every portion of their page about the info.
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"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!" | |
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scott2ya
Iphone junkie
Premium
join:2002-03-07
Missouri
| Some things just got to be regulated Traditional phone service is regulated to death. But the thing I like about it the most is that your POTS is always battery backed up.
Being in the phone industry, I know that the power can go out, and your phone will continue to work for 6-8 hrs and longer in most cases, because not only is the C.O. battery backed up, but there are generators there too. If on an RT (remote terminal), then there are only the batteries, but when they get low, techs are dispatched with generators in most cases. So in a perfect world you phone service should never go down due to power issues, UNLESS all your phones require power. You should always have at least one plain old telephone, not the cordless ones.
I would never switch soley to internet phone for the same reasons this baby died. Even a cell phone is more reliable than voip telephony. | |
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See 10 replies to this post | |
IronChefMoto
Premium
join:2001-02-08
Alpharetta, GA
|  Can she risk admitting she's incompetent?
Lady -- if you can't read warnings on a website, perhaps you can't read a box of rat poison that you're pouring into a cereal bowl for your children? Maybe you can't read the signs that say NO TURN ON RED and you pull out into really fast traffic onto a major thoroughfare?
Hmmm? Dipshit? If your husband set Vonage up for you (did she even have one -- didn't read the full article), did he forget to tell you, "Uh -- honey -- use your cell phone to call 911 for the baby, OK?" If so -- then why aren't you suing him? Divorcing him for buying the service?
I'm upset that a life was lost (the photo is cute -- perfect for local news ratings when the latest hot spilt McDonald's coffee investigation goes bad), but seriously -- you're a parent. "Parent" (verb) for Christ's sake. Government, including the courts, is for things NOT related to your own personal responsibility.
IronChefMorimoto
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Shuttle SK83G | AMD Athlon64 3400+ / Abit NF7-S 2.0 | AMD AthlonXP 2500+
Shuttle SK41G | Athlon XP 1800+ / Dell Latitude C810 | Intel PIII-M | |
| boyden
Premium
join:2003-07-29
Lewisville, TX
| c'mon Murray, as a fellow brit I would have thought you could have used your own brain and not been a sheep.
I test my Vonage 911 once a month. I phone up the local PD and ask them if it's OK. The first time I did it the Officer at the other end commended me and said she also has vonage and said feel free to test whenever, just phone first to check it's OK.
You also have cell phone etc.
As long as you understand the limitations - which are more than adequately displayed - then you are fine. | |
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fegul
Premium
join:2004-08-23
united state
| Test it The first thing you want to do when you get VoIP is test 911 access. I tested mine, and my call was routed to a non-emergency number, but often times the person that picks it up is indeed one of the dispatchers, or at the very least a police officer. Both 911 and the non-emergency number are in the same room of the same wing of the same building, so I know that either way, my call is getting there.
The only thing I am a little disconcerted about is the fact that my address does not show up on their end, requiring me to tell them what it is. That is the only worry for me. Other than that, I couldn't be happier with my VoIP. | |
| | | hobiecat
join:2005-05-03
Temecula, CA
| Re: Test it Actually, there are a number of PSAPs currently processing VoIP very close to the way they process POTS 9-1-1. In Greater Harris County, Texas, they are rolling out a method in all 42 PSAPs that will point VoIP calls to dedicated trunks so that call-takers know it is a VoIP call to 9-1-1. With Caller ID, the PSAP can see the call back number and even "dip" for ALI (location). This scenario only works if: the customer sets up his/her 9-1-1 account; the service provider obtains current PSAP 10-digit numbers from the National Directory of PSAPs; the PSAP designates a non-published 10 digit number for VoIP and configures it into the same queue as 9-1-1. Viola! VoIP 9-1-1. Simply takes some intelligent communications. | |
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Greg_Z
Premium
join:2001-08-08
Springfield, IL
·Comcast
| Love this comment from so called Spokesperson A spokeswoman for Vonage said her heart goes out to the family. She said the basic 911 service does work, but admits it needs work.
"We do expect to have a solution in place that allows people to call 911 and get their phone number and their location displayed on the dispatcher's screen before the end of the year," said Brooke Schulz.
Sorry to say, but VOIP is still not live for Primetime, and using it in a real world situation to Beta Test their mistakes is their first mistake.
Until regulation happens, and companies like Vonage wake up from their mistakes, the blame will have to be laid somewhere.
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One man's customer loyalty is another man's misguided arrogance. | |
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Goober
Premium
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL
·Comcast
·WOW Internet and C..
| Re: Love this comment from so called Spokesperson said by Greg_Z :A spokeswoman for Vonage said her heart goes out to the family. She said the basic 911 service does work, but admits it needs work.
"We do expect to have a solution in place that allows people to call 911 and get their phone number and their location displayed on the dispatcher's screen before the end of the year," said Brooke Schulz.Sorry to say, but VOIP is still not live for Primetime, and using it in a real world situation to Beta Test their mistakes is their first mistake. Until regulation happens, and companies like Vonage wake up from their mistakes, the blame will have to be laid somewhere. Although I think that Vonage has liability here, because their 911 disclaimers aren't strong enough, I think it was wrong of the paper to categorize the Vonage spokesperson's comments like that of an admission.
Clearly from the aricle, the spokesperson was not admitting anything. She was merely stating that they are working on a more robust solution. In tort law, you can't assert that the accused making improvements or fixes is an indication of liability. The news agency is clearly trying to push its own opinion here.
All that being said, Vonage meeds to make their 911 disclaimers more clear (as I said in the other "sue Vonage" thread). | |
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calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| Re: Love this comment from so called Spokesperson Additionally, we must be careful not to adopt as a national standard the belief that a product must be "idiot proof" before being sold. To the extent that we do adopt this standard, we are limiting our efficiency on a national basis to whatever a nation of idiots could achieve.
The efforts of the trial lawyers to "idiot proof" ladders have vastly increased the cost of ladders in the US today. Additionally, have you purchased an extension cord lately? The last one I bought had 4 separate warning tags attached, covering over a foot of the cord--all saying essentially the same thing, "Don't be an idiot and try to run an air conditioner, blow dryer, microwave, and toaster all at the same time over this lightweight cord."
Regardless of how anyone thinks Vonage's warnings/disclaimers could be improved, the service is already much more "idiot proof" than any automobile sold today.
calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! | |
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batageek
Slave To The Duopoly
Premium
join:2003-01-25
| Re: Love this comment from so called Spokesperson said by calvoiper :Additionally, we must be careful not to adopt as a national standard the belief that a product must be "idiot proof" before being sold. To the extent that we do adopt this standard, we are limiting our efficiency on a national basis to whatever a nation of idiots could achieve. AMEN!
"I'm Larry and this is my brother Darryl, and my other brother Darryl." »bessiebee.com/Trivia/990502.wav
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»www.tricitybroadband.com | |
| Crematum
Premium
join:2005-01-10
Canton, CT
| Unfortunately ... ... a lot of people don't read all of the documentation and just buy the vonage kits at a local retailer. What would you say if you did follow all of the instructions and setup 911 properly and you didn't get through or it didn't work... then who's fault is it? Oh yea, that's right... its the user's fault because they chose a service and didn't realize that it could be iffy and didn't read the Vonage fine print that says "don't trust our 911 service 100% and have a POTS and/or cell as backup." | |
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Greg_Z
Premium
join:2001-08-08
Springfield, IL
·Comcast
| Re: Unfortunately ... What Vonage needs to do is make the unit unusable until all setup is done. What needs to be done is make the setup as easy as possible.
1) Primary area of use Area Code?
2) City and State that unit will be used in?
3) County that you live in?
4) ISP that you use for Broadband connection?
5) Do you plan on using this unit in other areas (Yes or No)?
6) If answered yes to question number 4, then please call Customer service at xxx-xxx-xxxx to complete install.
How much simplier can it be. If Vonage would take the time to make the install simple and not just go for the $$$, then you would not hear about this.
Sorry to say, but you are going to see VOIP companies under strict regulation, and I would not be suprised that these companies are given an act of congress to go offline until the problems like 911 and uptime standards corrected.
--
One man's customer loyalty is another man's misguided arrogance. | |
| stonecolddsl
Linux Junkie
join:2004-01-07
Sarasota, FL
·Rapid Systems, Inc.
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
·Verizon Online DSL
| Free POTS 911 What people seem to forget is that Even if you dont have phone service through your local telephone company they are required to provided you with 911 service.
As long as the telephone wire has not been disconnected at the nid to do the trick with pluging your voip addapter into a jack and then that in turns makes all the jacks usable with the voip service then yoou can place a call. That is what the 911 Service fee on pots lines are for. so even people who can not afford telephone service can have emergency 911 calls.
So there is no real excuse. Peole tend to forget thta you have 911 service on a the ptos line even if you dont have telephone service.
If you want to do the whole house trick with you viop fine buut from the nid run another jack form a second set in your nids that is hooked up to the phone companys wireing so you will always have realiable 911
Or carry a damn cellphone. It does not even have to be prepaid or post paid. You can make emergency 911 calls from a formarlly activated phone. ( I say formersly as some phones when they come out of the box new are not programed so the 911 call would not go through. )
So I find it hard to blame vonage for her stupidity. I feel sorry for her lost but not her stupidity. | |
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See 9 replies to this post | |
jjoshua
Premium
join:2001-06-01
Scotch Plains, NJ | Who subscribed to VoIP? Did the woman actually subscribe to the VoIP service or did someone else do it?
If she didn't, then she probably didn't know that the 911 service wouldn't work the way she expected it to work. | |
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calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA | Re: Who subscribed to VoIP? This is, indeed, a serious question. 9-1-1 is designed so that ANYONE, normally using that phone or not, can get emergency assistance.
calvoiper
--
VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! | |
| 
linicx
Caveat Emptor
Premium
join:2002-12-03
United State
·CenturyLink
| What you might not know I have a lot of electronic gadgetry including a cell phone I use for emergencies when I travel, ham radio and I had Vonage at one time. It's all fun for a while.
IMHO, The only piece of emergency equipment that will never fail is a wire and manual key that has an operator who can send Morse code. The next most dependable device is POTS followed by cell and lastly VoIP.
Of these devices the only one not dependent upon electricity, or affected by foul weather, mountains, trees, dropped connections, static connections, heat dead batteries or distance from the nearest tower is the Morse key.
As someone who has used POTS for more than fifty years, traveled all over the US, and lived in various states, used various home grown phone companies, no one phone company is perfect. I hate POTS for every greedy, little dirty trick it represents. But, for nearly infallible service it is hard to beat Ma Bell at home or on the road. The others, except the key. are too dependent upon too many outside influences.
Lastly where you live makes a big difference in the kind of reception you get over any electronic instrument. If you live in Chicago your service area and signal will be much stronger than someone like myself who lives in Podunk, Mid-America among big old Victorian era homes, 100 year old oak trees and rolling hills.
Life is like Congress, as it too has a system of checks and balances. They are called choices and consequences. Now, as I know computers are dependent upon twisted pairs and electricity to reach the outside world, and as I know computers are adversely affected by foul weather, and as I know not all phone companies replaced aging underground, unprotected phone lines - and, as I have a spouse at home who needs critical care, I would not choose VoIP as my only form of communication.
Death is horrible but a preventable death is catastrophic to the parents. My son and his friend died in Mexico as the direct result of a preventable accident and greedy first-on-the-scene Policia who called and waited for the Red Cross because they pay for every call, instead of transporting my son to the nearest medical clinic. Then it took the US Consulate in Mexico and damned near an act of Congress to get him repatriated for burial at home. | |
|
linicx
Caveat Emptor
Premium
join:2002-12-03
United State
·CenturyLink
| I have a lot of electronic gadgetry including a cell phone I use for emergencies when I travel, ham radio and I had Vonage at one time. It's all fun for a while.
INMO, The only piece of emergency equipment that will never fail is a wire and manual key that has an operator who can send Morse code. The next most dpendable device is POTS followed by cell and lastly VoIP.
Of these devices the only one not dependent upon electricity, or affected by foul weather, mountains, trees, dropped connections, static connections, heat dead batteries or distance from the nearest tower is the Morse key.
As someone who has used POTS for more than fifty years, traveled all over the US, and lived in various states, used various home grown phone companies, no one phone company is perfect. I hate POTS for every greedy, little dirty trick it represents. But, for nearly infallable service it is hard to beat Ma Bell at home or on the road. The others, except the key. are too dependent upon too many outside influences.
Lastly where you live makes a big difference in the kind of reception you get over any electronic instrument. If you live in Chicago your sevice area and signal will be much stronger than someone like myself who lives in Podunk, Mid-America among big old Victorian era homes, 100 year old oak trees and rolling hills.
Life is like Congress, as it too has a system of checks and balances. They are called choices and consequences. Now, as I know computers are dependent upon twisted pairs and electricity to reach the outside world, and as I know computers are adversely affected by foul weather, and as I know not all phone companies replaced aging underground, unprotected phone lines - and, as I have a spouse at home who needs critical care, I would not choose VoIP as my only form of communication.
Death is horrible but a preventable death is catastrophic to the parents. My son and his friend died in Mexico as the direct result of a preventable accident and greedy first-on-the-scene Policia who called and waited for the Red Cross because they pay for every call, instead of transporting my son to the nearest medical clinic. Then it took the US Consulate in Mexico and damned near an act of Congress to get him repatriated for burial at home. | |
| 
fred123456l
@comcast.net | "and indicate Vonage proved to local news outlets the calls went through, twice -"
So what's the problem? | |
| BigMac777
join:2001-07-21
Green Valley, AZ
·Qwest.net
| The problem is that you are not reading the newspaper article. Yes the phone call went through. But to a prerecorded message, and not to the dispatcher. This means that Vonage as they stated have a few problems to work out with there E911 service. The customer had the E911 service properly setup. Vonage did not, by sending the call to a prerecorded message and not a dispatcher. This is a good reason for the FEDS to get involved with VOIP. If you advertise E911 and send the call to a prerecorded message you have big problems that need to be looked at. How can you possibly blame a mother for V O N A G E'S big mistake. She did have her E911 set up properly. Vonage did not have there act together. | |
| |
Goober
Premium
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL
·Comcast
·WOW Internet and C..
| Re: Vonage's Fault said by BigMac777 :The problem is that you are not reading the newspaper article. Yes the phone call went through. But to a prerecorded message, and not to the dispatcher. This means that Vonage as they stated have a few problems to work out with there E911 service. The customer had the E911 service properly setup. Vonage did not, by sending the call to a prerecorded message and not a dispatcher. This is a good reason for the FEDS to get involved with VOIP. If you advertise E911 and send the call to a prerecorded message you have big problems that need to be looked at. How can you possibly blame a mother for V O N A G E'S big mistake. She did have her E911 set up properly. Vonage did not have there act together. Finally a voice of reason instead of the silly mother/child bashing. | |
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calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA | Re: Vonage's Fault And is there any evidence that Vonage is advertising E-9-1-1 capabilities?
calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! | |
| | | |
Goober
Premium
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL
·Comcast
·WOW Internet and C..
| Re: Vonage's Fault said by calvoiper :And is there any evidence that Vonage is advertising E-9-1-1 capabilities? calvoiper No. But my point is that people see 911 and automatically assume it is the POTS equivalent of 911.
For me, if Vonage were to put in large bold letter and/or seperate out the 911 disclaimer (with verbiage you see in their terms of usage), then the issue goes away.
It doesn't really matter whether Vonage offers E911, but I think it DOES matter that they don't take a little bit more pains to making sure people clearly understand what they AREN'T getting in VOIP 911.
Right now, it's too easy to just click through the signup process. People just ignore the T&Cs. My opinion is that for safety related T&Cs, you have to make the customer sign off on each clause. Preferably it's a one sentence clause that will keep the average person's attention and make him read through the verbiage without just clicking an acceptance without reading. | |
| | | hobiecat
join:2005-05-03
Temecula, CA
| The carriers need to verify the 10-digit PSAP number with the National Directory of PSAPs. They should also set up a "Class of Service" so that when VoIP is switched to the PSTN (Publically Switched Telephone Network), it will show it as originating from a VoIP phone. Just those two adjustments alone can improve service.
Ironically, a lot of non-emergency numbers for PSAPs around the country have a pre-recorded greetting: "If this is an emergency please hang up an dial 9-1-1." | |
| rradina
join:2000-08-08
Chesterfield, MO
| said by the referenced story:
With the high cost of traditional phone service, many people are turning to lower-cost Internet phone service, but one local mom said she believes a cheaper phone service cost her her baby's life.
Isn't this the real issue? If traditional phone services weren't so ridiculously overpriced, there would be no market for VOIP. | |
| | mglunt
join:2001-09-10
Fredericksburg, VA
 ·Verizon FIOS
1 edit | Re: The real issue... VoIP will always be cheaper because they don't need to maintain the lines to everyone's house. People will always be tempted to go with VoIP because of that.
For my house, I have a POTS line, and our Cell phones can be used for making long distance calls. VoIP needs to be as good as POTS regarding 911 before I switch. Even then, I don't like the idea of relying on a nonessential service like HSI for something essential like 911. Not to mention the fact that it is a lot easier to teach a child how to push 9-1-1 on a phone than it is teaching him how to push 9-1-1 and recite an address even if the call is routed properly.
The cost savings is NOWHERE near worth the risk. Vonage is what $25 a month? I am paying around $35 for a Verizon line with the ability to dial long distance. Without the long distance, it is probably less. Saving up to $10 at the expense of reliable 911 service? That's a bargain? I don't think so. | |
| | | rradina
join:2000-08-08
Chesterfield, MO
| Re: The real issue... Does the $35/month price include all the Vonage features? (three way calling, call forwarding, caller ID, call waiting, call waiting caller id, voice mail, ring two numbers at once, and more?)
I live ~20 miles from the population center of the STL metro area and after fees, taxes and other bend-me-over extended area service fees, a basic line that can call metro numbers was ~$50 w/no long distance and no features. Add call waiting and it was ~$60/month.
I disagree that traditional phone services cannot offer cheaper service. If they sell DSL on the same line, they already pay for the loop. The phone service over that same pair should then not be any more than adding VOIP to that same pair.
If I added Vonage to the cost of my HSI, it would be the same price as POTS but I don't just use my HSI for phone service. With Vonage + HSI being equivalent to what I used to pay for POTS w/Caller ID and no long distance, I get free long distance and free HSI or free long distance and free phone service. Regardless of how you add it, I'm getting something free and that difference is far more than $10.
My wife and I both have cell phones and Vonage is the "hard wired" circuit in our house. I have no worry that one of these avenues will work in the event of an actual emergency. There's a bigger risk that I will get killed during the morning commute than lose a life to Vonage 911.
Could it be better? Absolutely. Should Vonage try to offer real 911 service if it doesn't represent a prohibitive burden to their cost structure? Absolutely. Should a suit in Washington be able to demand compliance? Absolutely not. | |
| Major Tom
join:2002-04-05
Newark, DE
| Since most of the country is POTS wired, it would be a simple thing that if you drop your POTS service, the local phone company locks your POTS line to only dial 911 with no incomming service and this would be free or a couple of bucks a month.
Problem solved. | |
| | Marckus0513
Just Because
join:2003-01-11
Vernon, VT
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Cheap Easy Simple Solution said by Major Tom :Since most of the country is POTS wired, it would be a simple thing that if you drop your POTS service, the local phone company locks your POTS line to only dial 911 with no incoming service and this would be free or a couple of bucks a month. Problem solved. In many areas this is what happens. However, phone companies I believe are only required to provide this service for a few months and not indefinitely.
It is the line to the house and the port on the telco's switch that costs the most money to maintain. Not the actual calls. So, to expect the phone company to maintain a line to your house for E911 purposes and for free for an extended period of time would be unreasonable.
IMO if you want to go without POTS and with only VOIP or Cell service than good for you. But it is not the POTS companies responsibility to make sure you have E911 service when you choose not to pay them a dime.
I believe that the VOIP companies should provide E911 service just like the Bells. I also believe that they should contribute to the operating costs of running the E911 network. Perhaps one day this will not be an issue!
Marckus  | |
| | ke4pym
join:2004-07-24
Charlotte, NC | Bellsouth already does this. It's called quickdial. Disconnect your phone line and you still get dial tone. 911 works as does a couple of service lines (such as 611 to get service). | |
| dibbb
join:2003-09-19 | Want true E911 AND VoIP?
How you say?
Time Warner Cable Digital Phone. | |
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Baby Death Blamed on Vonage 911
