 CanadianIron
join:2006-10-08
Beverly Hills, CA | cope vs sabia Meet the new boss; same as the old boss... | |
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 | jc100
join:2002-04-10 | Re: cope vs sabia Pretty Much... | |
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Rastan
join:2007-04-25
Canada
 ·TekSavvy Solutions..
 ·VBUZZER
·Bell Sympatico
| They're Improving Their Service by Destroying Competition Instead of attracting new customers by improving their network, Bell prefers to persuade their customers to not switch over to a wholesaler by attacking their competition.
The only innovation that's come from Bell is improved tactics to screw us over. | |
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tad2020
join:2007-07-17
Orange, CA | Re: They're Improving Their Service by Destroying Competition At least you guys have (had) competition, here in the US it was killed by the bells back in the paleozoic era. | |
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en102
Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA | Re: They're Improving Their Service by Destroying Competition There are still DSL resellers here in the US... Telco's still make it not very competitive in many areas though (eg. AT&T requiring a POTS line for DSL on a reseller)
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Canada = Hollywood North | |
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tad2020
join:2007-07-17
Orange, CA
| Re: They're Improving Their Service by Destroying Competition "very competitive in many areas though"
Where I am in Tustin, CA (next to Irvine), resellers are either unable to provide service or they can only offer slower ADSL service that AT&T's ADSL that tops out at a whopping 6/768 for $79 for a static IP ($59 w/o) and no one is even able to offer ADSL2.
AT&T has been installing their Uverse thingies around here, maybe sometime next year they might start offing faster service. *shrugs* Too bad there is zero change for line sharing on that system, I like the faster network but every time we deal with AT&T they manage to figure out some new way to fuck up and disrupt business at my office. | |
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tad2020
join:2007-07-17
Orange, CA
| Re: They're Improving Their Service by Destroying Competition I tried them first, no dice. They said it was something AT&T did or wouldn't do that doesn't allow them to offer ADSL2. The best the could do was 4mbps and they weren't totally sure if that was possible.
Everyone but AT&T has problem figuring out what AT&T is doing around here. Our old phone company had to wait for AT&T to find a map so we could install some new phone lines at our old office, but AT&T couldn't find them and they keep saying "we're working on it" till 6 weeks later they admitted they lost that map years ago and we were on our own to find which binding posts they installed our new phone lines to.
Scenarios like that have been repeating for the past 2 years, AT&T just doesn't have their act together here.
Just yesterday they completed our several week old order to have a number changed on a fax line. In doing so, they disconnected our main fax number, forwarded our main voice number to the new fax number, and basically disabled ALL of our incoming phone service because of that. It took them 2 tries and 2 days to fix it. It's really bad when I'm already expecting them to mess up and preemptively telling them not to disrupt the forward on a number and they go a break all the forwards anyway.
I may be biased against AT&T, but when they mess up on 9/10 orders... | |
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R0CKY
TSI Rocky
Premium,VIP
join:2005-05-19
Chatham, ON | Details... Looking forward to the details at the end of the month!
Should be interesting....
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TSI Rocky - TekSavvy Solutions Inc. | |
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MysticGogeta
The Robot Devil
Premium
join:2005-03-14
League City, TX
clubs: | Re: Details... Sue? I don't know what else there is to do. | |
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mlerner
Premium
join:2000-11-25
Nepean, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..
·Bell Sympatico
| Re: Details... said by MysticGogeta  :Sue? I don't know what else there is to do. I never thought I'd say this but Rocky, sue them and get every penny you can. Someone has to teach them a lesson.
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"If bullshit was money this guy would be richer that Bill Gates." - quote by olebiker on Mirko Bibic | |
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Kyle
join:2003-10-15
Toledo, OH
 ·buckeye cable
edit:
July 18th, @02:19PM
| and what let Bell win at the end because their pockets are basically unlimited compared to the ISPs?
Bell could drag it on and on and just put the ISPs out of business before any court could give an answer. Legal fees for ISPs aren't free. Bell's would be pretty well free sicne they're lawyers would be on staff.
I'm doubt TeckSavvy has a team of lawyers to sit around in their office for $50,000 plus for nothing when not needed except for answering the phones for tech support? seems like a high price to me that would be a waste.
Rocky's pockets are not unlimited like Bell's he wouldn't get much but a high ass legal bill. | |
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MysticGogeta
The Robot Devil
Premium
join:2005-03-14
League City, TX
clubs:
·Comcast
edit:
July 18th, @02:36PM
| Re: Details... Well what else is there left to do sit around and let them screw them out of any profits and crush the company? He will be faced with either raising prices or laying off workers or perhaps both.
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Team Discovery-Join the fight | |
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R0CKY
TSI Rocky
Premium,VIP
join:2005-05-19
Chatham, ON
| Re: Details... said by MysticGogeta :Well what else is there left to do sit around and let them screw them out of any profits and crush the company? He will be faced with either raising prices or laying off workers or perhaps both. the unfortunate thing is it's irrelevant if TSI survives through this right now... What is very relevant is how our worlds, techie or not, are about to get very impacted financially.
People need communication, hydro, gas, etc., services just as much as they need to air and water right now, so all those who control these mechanisms are in a powerful situation. This is why I, and others, went to Parliament Hill recently as we're fighting about something much bigger than all of us in the end..... The major difference with Bell/Rogers in this case is not only are they influencing our "internet air" but they also have the capability of impacting what we think and do, being tied so closely to the media and content.
Net Neutrality principals and concerns are far reaching as Corporate Greed has a very really opportunity to turn us all into virtual lab rats..... (booooo!) 
Rocky
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TSI Rocky - TekSavvy Solutions Inc. | |
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Kyle
join:2003-10-15
Toledo, OH
·buckeye cable
| Re: Details... ISPs there need to do what they do here; Build out their own networks.
Just because its legal for you to use their networks you shouldnt rely on them for your business. Start building out yours and show them up.
Why cry about it? when they go and do the usage based system what are you going to do? cry about that too?
You're a business looking to make profit. They're a business looking to make profit. And Bell owns one thing you both want. The wiring between the CO and the customers homes and businesses. Stop using the wire.
It has been showen here the ILECs will crush you no matter how they spin it. Next they'll drop their price rates and go after you that way.
and hydro and gas are not communication needs. Actually people lived before they were even around.
Also Net Neutrality was never about keeping the networks so they'd be wholesaled. They were about making content on them equal. You are crying about something that does not even fit the def. about what it was meant to be.
Start being a company and build out your own network or just get out of the way. | |
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R0CKY
TSI Rocky
Premium,VIP
join:2005-05-19
Chatham, ON
| Re: Details... said by hottboiinnc :ISPs there need to do what they do here; Build out their own networks. Just because its legal for you to use their networks you shouldnt rely on them for your business. Start building out yours and show them up. Why cry about it? when they go and do the usage based system what are you going to do? cry about that too? You're a business looking to make profit. They're a business looking to make profit. And Bell owns one thing you both want. The wiring between the CO and the customers homes and businesses. Stop using the wire. It has been showen here the ILECs will crush you no matter how they spin it. Next they'll drop their price rates and go after you that way. and hydro and gas are not communication needs. Actually people lived before they were even around. Also Net Neutrality was never about keeping the networks so they'd be wholesaled. They were about making content on them equal. You are crying about something that does not even fit the def. about what it was meant to be. Start being a company and build out your own network or just get out of the way. Huh? The Canadian market isn't at all like the US guys.... In Bell Territory (and I say Bell Territory for a good reason), we have no choice but to use them in the ground, so even using our own equipment as you say, we'd still have to go through them to finish the job. This is why it's called a monopoly.
I never said hydro and gas were communication needs.
In any case, we have a standardized structure in Canada that allows a standard network format (one good part from the Government), but what we don't have is a standard agreement on how we all play together to make this work.
Lastly, it's not Bell's network technically as they've been given rights to a space with the condition they shared it. If they no longer wish to honour their monopoly responsibilities, then lets have it taken away and auction/sell the rights to someone who wants to take the responsibility for it.
Rocky
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TSI Rocky - TekSavvy Solutions Inc. | |
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Kyle
join:2003-10-15
Toledo, OH | Re: Details... You don't need anything plugged on the ground if you do wireless like i said.
but then again why should you since you can go to the CRTC and cry that you need to lease their network because you can't build out wireless. | |
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R0CKY
TSI Rocky
Premium,VIP
join:2005-05-19
Chatham, ON
| Re: Details... said by hottboiinnc :You don't need anything plugged on the ground if you do wireless like i said. but then again why should you since you can go to the CRTC and cry that you need to lease their network because you can't build out wireless. Who's to say we're not doing something else? I'm talking about this particular service being serviced by a particular supplier.
Because I'm not allowing someone to be a bully makes me a whiner? I don't think so... To boot, if you looked me up you'd quickly realise I'm one of the few who are very much active in fighting for your rights! So, unless you can tell me you're also standing up to fight for your/our rights, instead of arguing for the sake of arguing, I'd consider keeping the attacks on the down-low.
I'm done here.
Rocky
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TSI Rocky - TekSavvy Solutions Inc. | |
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adisor19
join:2004-10-11
·Radioactif
·Videotron
·Look Communications
| Re: Details... said by R0CKY :said by hottboiinnc :You don't need anything plugged on the ground if you do wireless like i said. but then again why should you since you can go to the CRTC and cry that you need to lease their network because you can't build out wireless. Who's to say we're not doing something else? I'm talking about this particular service being serviced by a particular supplier. Because I'm not allowing someone to be a bully makes me a whiner? I don't think so... To boot, if you looked me up you'd quickly realise I'm one of the few who are very much active in fighting for your rights! So, unless you can tell me you're also standing up to fight for your/our rights, instead of arguing for the sake of arguing, I'd consider keeping the attacks on the down-low. I'm done here. Rocky Don't bother feeding the troll Rocky. This guy obviously has no idea of what he's talking about and as you realised, he's only trying to insult you.
I for one can't wait to see what the CRTC's response to this BS move by Bell will be.
Keep up the good fight and let's hope this country won't become ruled by corporations like in the USA.
Adi | |
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Kyle
join:2003-10-15
Toledo, OH
·buckeye cable
| My rights? HA! We don't have this problem in the USA. We actually have the dereg which doesnt require the ILECs to share. So its either sink or swim.
It seems that you don't make a very good businessman though. Rule #2 - if a supplier screws you;-you don't keep going back to them. You find a way to keep your business going without them-hence finding another way to deliver your product -ie: Wireless Internet become a WISP instead of a DSL provider.
You're business would be screwed here in the US if you depended on the Bells. Also i don't see how you consider them a monopoly. They're not keeping you from having your business. ISPs lobbied your government to allow you in. You should be glad they did. Also you should be working on having your own network and start saying you are instead of "fighting". But in the long run Bell will win one way or another.
And also I'm not attacking you - i'm simply stating the facts. If you can't compete as a business man against a large company I suggest you get out while the goings getting good and sell your company to someone else that can handle it. And then go talk to The Home Depot up there and learn how to stand up to your vendors/suppliers- its not about getting someone else involved to get what you want done its about putting them in their place without laws that are not needed. | |
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Siftbit
@teksavvy.com
| Re: Details... That is quite possibly the dumbest thing I've read all week.
Supposing that it's feasible these small ISP to set up their own WISP infrastructure (it's not), you wouldn't even be providing the same product since WISP is aimed at different market with different needs, uses, and expectations. If Bell owned roads and made all the taxi companies to pay exorbitant amount of money, you wouldn't tell these taxi companies to start an airline. Both modes of transportation, sure, but aimed at very different markets.
Please think a bit more before writing. | |
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Kyle
join:2003-10-15
Toledo, OH
edit:
July 18th, @11:51PM
| Re: Details... yes it is possible for TekSavvy to build their own WISP out. They just don't want to like it or not they just want to leach off Bell because Gov't says they can.
And they don't seem to be as small as you make them out to be. | |
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pfak
Premium
join:2002-12-29
Canada
·Shaw
 ·Novus Entertainmen..
| Re: Details... You do realize that Bell Canada's network was paid for by the gov't, right?
Why is it acceptable for Bell to have a free ride, but not allow others on the governments network even though they're paying for the service?
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Xenophase - British Columbia's premier online gaming community. | |
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DKS
Damn Kidney Stones
Premium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
clubs:
·Bell Sympatico
| Re: Details... said by pfak :You do realize that Bell Canada's network was paid for by the gov't, right? Why is it acceptable for Bell to have a free ride, but not allow others on the governments network even though they're paying for the service? That is nonsense. None of Canada's (or Rogers, for that matter) networks have been publicly funded. Both are publicly traded corporations.
And the only "government" network is DNET, which is run by the Canadian Forces. And you ain't going anywhere near that, ever.
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Need-based health care not greed-based health care. | |
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canucklehead
@shawcable.net
| Re: Details... FALSE. the provincial governments of alberta and BC poured billions of tax dollars into their infrastructures, then sold out to telus. i would assume bell was at one time a govt/crown operation as well. there is simply no way telus would exist today if they had to start from scratch. exactly when was AGT/BC tel/ EDtel pubically traded?. they were NEVER TRADED, just funded by the citizens via taxes (like CBC is now).
ALBERTA has a huge quasi govt network - SUPERNET - paid in part by my taxes, my dads taxes, my sons taxes. you really should pull you head out of your ass before typing, it just might help | |
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DKS
Damn Kidney Stones
Premium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
clubs:
·Bell Sympatico
| Re: Details... said by canucklehead :
FALSE. the provincial governments of alberta and BC poured billions of tax dollars into their infrastructures, then sold out to telus. i would assume bell was at one time a govt/crown operation as well. there is simply no way telus would exist today if they had to start from scratch. exactly when was AGT/BC tel/ EDtel pubically traded?. they were NEVER TRADED, just funded by the citizens via taxes (like CBC is now).
ALBERTA has a huge quasi govt network - SUPERNET - paid in part by my taxes, my dads taxes, my sons taxes. you really should pull you head out of your ass before typing, it just might help
No, you don't know the facts. This story is about BELL CANADA. It has not ever built infrastructure using government money. Telus is not part of this story. 
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Need-based health care not greed-based health care. | |
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| | | | | | | | BosstonesOwn
join:2002-12-15
Everett, MA
clubs:
·Comcast Formerly ..
| said by hottboiinnc :You don't need anything plugged on the ground if you do wireless like i said. but then again why should you since you can go to the CRTC and cry that you need to lease their network because you can't build out wireless. Just in case you can't read , Bell is one of the only sources for dumping data onto the internet in Canada. And in the US we have multiple providers for that.
If one had the intelligence to go and read through the canadian telecom rules , they don't own anything , they are getting it provided to them by the government. And the contact can come up for renewal. They can lose their rights to it. They didn't pay for the build out , Rocky as a canadian buddy , keep up the good fight man.
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KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
edit:
July 18th, @06:25PM
| On Second thought, I realized it was an utter waste of my time to respond to this. | |
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| | | | | | st7860
join:2004-05-13
San Francisco, CA
| said by hottboiinnc :ISPs there need to do what they do here; Build out their own networks. Just because its legal for you to use their networks you shouldnt rely on them for your business. Start building out yours and show them up. Why cry about it? when they go and do the usage based system what are you going to do? cry about that too? You're a business looking to make profit. They're a business looking to make profit. And Bell owns one thing you both want. The wiring between the CO and the customers homes and businesses. Stop using the wire. It has been showen here the ILECs will crush you no matter how they spin it. Next they'll drop their price rates and go after you that way. and hydro and gas are not communication needs. Actually people lived before they were even around. Also Net Neutrality was never about keeping the networks so they'd be wholesaled. They were about making content on them equal. You are crying about something that does not even fit the def. about what it was meant to be. Start being a company and build out your own network or just get out of the way. i hereby and solemnly declare +1
furthermore, out in BC, i use an ADSL company called telus, where I get a 6m down 1m up line and i don't get charged if i go over 200 gigabytes, and I dont have to pay $10 for 'bundles' of extra gigabytes, AND, don't have to enter a password to access the internet, but with most of the competitors, you do have to enter a password to access the internet, even if you're using ADSL. | |
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Bellundo
@teksavvy.com | Re: Details... But you just recently lost your binary newsgroups so everything that happened in Ontario will happen to you only 3 years later. | |
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| | | | | | Capharnaum
join:2006-06-19
Montreal, QC
| Bell was given a monopoly in Canada, and then they wanted to get out of that regulation and start charging what they wanted. The problem is that they wouldn't have competition and the legislated era had them build their network with insured profits while passing off all costs to the customers, who had no choice but to go with them (since they're a monopoly).
So the only way they could get out of the regulation was to allow access at a fair price to other companies so that there was competition for the different services. The part where they have to provide a certain level of service to competitors is regulated to ensure competition.
Now Bell is trying to thwart competition using these avenues since they can't compete with them as they are an unneffective, innefficient company that customers are fleeing from. Basically, they're trying to force customers to be with them with underhanded moves because they can't keep their customers through satisfaction. | |
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Latency
@teksavvy.com
| Give them Hell Rocky...
This is some info to add for the misinformed...
When Rogers wanted to get into the phone business back in the 1990's the CRTC said (simplified version for the sake of brevity) "let's see what Bell says"... Bell said "sure, but we want into the TV business".. They basically agreed at the behest of the CRTC..
Sounds fine, eh? Too bad Rogers had a number of years head start (handicap) to get their fledgling phone service off the ground before Bell was even allowed to enter the TV space.
This is Fredrick von Shitenstein and the other ivory tower no-minds at the CRTC creating dual-monopolies and protecting them from each other at the same time. The goal of the CRTC/govn't at the time was not to financially impact or cause massive sell-offs in the stock market of either Bell or Rogers' shares.
Rocky: You must face one fact; The CRTC is a country club filled with ex-monopoly (Bell/Rogers) employees.
If you are the biggest Bell/Rogers corporate shill in history you get rewarded with a position at the CRTC. Because the CRTC (using circular logic) must fill its' ranks with experts and those all must work for Bell/Rogers in the eyes of the government.
Complicating this matter is Bell's (BCE) attempt to keep their profit projections strong enough to land the investment from the Teachers Pension Fund. Bell needs this investment or they could be in very serious trouble financially, yes I said they are in trouble. So the CRTC which is run by our fine Tory government are not about to let this happen, not in our lifetime.
And yes these are the same fine folks who allowed the sale of our forestry industry (too many to mention, but now just Weyerhaeuser), our steel industry (Stelco and Dofasco), our mining industry (Inco/Falconbridge), and of late apparently our highly govn't funded space industry.
Anything to make sure the monopolies stay strong and most important stay monopolies. The government doesn't care who makes our toilet paper, our car parts, our metals, or our space ships just as long as no-one else (other than our Tory government) tells us what to think. Telling Canadians what to think is the sole monopoly of the Canadian federal government.
They are (CRTC) far more concerned about foreign investment, I mean keeping foreign investment from swallowing us whole than they are about effecting the livelihood of a couple smaller companies. We do need to worry about the likes of SBC, Verizon, AT&T, etc.. in addition to our own domestic monopolies. All of the American telco's are freakin huge and their draconian business style does not bode well for our quasi-socialist ways here in Canada.
IMO Unless something was about to change for BCE (foreign investment) the Teachers Pension Plan wouldn't be seriously interested in a company that is so dependent on government hand-outs. These investors types do not like government involvement, it slows them down and gets in the way of them making money. Ergo, get ready for the announcement of a major portion of Bell being sold off to some big foreign entity. As likely from Europe or Asia as from the USA...
Oh that's right, the Teachers Pension Plan IS the vehicle for foreign investment in Bell while carefully side-stepping our current laws.
Aside from your micro-economical views ie. the plight and future of your business and its' employees.
Cogeco did it and so can you! They put in their own fiber and other required infrastructure, and wired customers right to the home. Even if they ran crap old PDP-11's in the beginning. Do the same as them buy up all of the old(er) telco gear you can find, start wiring and give them hell.
Cogeco Cable should be looked upon as the model for succeeding in the face of stiff opposition in Canada.
Shouldn't you guys be pissed off that Toronto Hydros' IP network is being sold to Cogeco? This is even more of the tax-payer's dollars hard at work. Muni-telecom was supposed to be the answer to thwart the Bell/Rogers monopoly. Now it seems "muni-telecom" was a clever way for other players (all cable co's) to get a finished working system without paying for all of the mistakes made during the projects' life cycle.
MONTREAL - Toronto Hydro Telecom Inc. is an under-utilized gem that will provide great growth opportunities for its new owner, Cogeco Cable Inc. (TSX:CCA) president Louis Audet said Thursday.
The Montreal-based cable company is buying the Toronto Hydro Corp. subsidiary for $200 million in a deal that will give Cogeco Cable an important foothold in the lucrative Toronto market.
Rocky I would suggest you partner with your local muni-fiber guys as they can and do/have run new infrastructure all over the place. Hydro has right of ways also, and they can be utilized for telecommunications infrastructure in addition to power as they have been doing for years.
Perhaps, you can partner with Cogeco the third head of the Hydra...
Rocky in all seriousness I applaud your determination and efforts on behalf of all of us. Regardless of what a bunch of mis-informed piss ants say..
I say hat's off to Rocky for having a spine. He must be a Canadian, eh?
L@tency | |
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| | | | hottboiinnc
Kyle
join:2003-10-15
Toledo, OH
·buckeye cable
| build out his own network? maybe wireless?
just because wholesaling is required in Canada does not mean you can make a business off it for such as long time. Someone is going to get tired of it and put a stop to it, and Bell is doing just that.
They should end their agreement with Bell but before start building out a wireless network. get apartment/condo complexes into turning their property into a "smart" property and doing DSL over his own dslam at the locations.
They're are many things he can do instead of sitting there or fighting with Bell in court. And if he doesnt fight back by offering his own product without them well then if he goes out of business, lays people off (firing them) or raising rates then i see that it would be his fault then. | |
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Shoreline
Your Freedom Fries Are Stale
join:2003-09-29
Santa Clara, CA
edit:
July 18th, @06:49PM
| Simply overtake it The government subsidizes companies for laying down the work right? Or not? Not sure if this is the case in either Canada or the U.S.
Anyways, have the government put down the fiber and regulate it, then have companies compete individually, choosing whether or not to throttle consumers. The whole idea of wholesale for internet connections is a sham since they (CLEC) are at the behest of the ILEC anyways, regulation or not. And you see here companies do all they can to undercut or evade them anyways, with little being done about it.
This is really an old debate that I can't believe still needs to be re-asserted today.
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Moore/Alexander 2008
Conservatives love religious-like aphorisms so here's one: "Freedom isn't free. It's Made in China." | |
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Kdee
join:2005-08-26
Etobicoke, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..
·Bell Sympatico
| I agree with this blog posting... "Bell is clearly unable to compete with smaller more nimble ISPs and as a result has to resort to dirty tricks to put them out of business. It’s time to raise hell about this to anyone who will listen. It’s also time to dump as many Bell services as possible so that they the message in the only place that matters.
The bank account."
More here: »itnerd.wordpress.com/2008/07/18/···t-dirty/ | |
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RangerTX
Premium
join:2006-05-17
Los Angeles, CA | Good for them Good for Bell thinking ahead and not reacting. Looks like resellers will be going out of business soon.
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i am not a lawyer but I do play one on the internet | |
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beatsnpieces
join:2007-12-17 | Madness!! Step 1: Drive to Bell Canada head office.
Step 2: Apply rag to liquor bottle.
Step 3: Light rag with lighter.
Step 4: Hurl bottle at building.
Step 5: Repeat steps 1-4 until the smell of charred beaver becomes overpowering. | |
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zachary1
you talkin' to me?
join:2004-03-07
right here | Re: Madness!! I'm throwing those goddamn beavers into my bonfire tonight! | |
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Bell Canada Devises Backup Plan To Kill Wholesale Competitors
The moment of truth approaches