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Bell Canada Seeks Death Blow For Indie ISPs
Urges courts to ditch mandated wholesale access...

With third-party ISPs now unable to offer unthrottled service, Bell Canada now looks to achieve what U.S. incumbents have: total freedom from pesky, independent ISP competition through government lobbying. According to the CBC, Bell Canada is asking the courts to scrap mandated access by competitors to its citizenry-funded network.

The CRTC recently stated that wholesale access to indie ISPs must continue, but soon they'll mirror U.S. broadband policy where third party ISPs are not given mandated access to next-generation networks. As U.S. incumbents did, Bell Canada is arguing that there's just so much competition these days, such rules are no longer necessary:
quote:
In its appeal, Bell said such regulation is no longer necessary now that there is enough competition in phone and internet markets. In home phones, Bell is competing with a number of major cable companies, not to mention Voice over Internet Protocol providers and cellphone carriers. On the internet side, Bell faces competition from cable companies.
Users of Teksavvy, one of the more popular indie ISPs in Canada, give their thoughts in our Teksavvy forum. "I feel like I have been taking crazy pills," says one Canadian user. "Here we all are, complaining to the CRTC about how uncompetitive things are, and they are arguing the exact opposite." Sound familiar?
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DrModem
Trust Your Doctor
Premium Member
join:2006-10-19
USA

DrModem

Premium Member

Wow

Teksavvy and the rest better start trying to build their own network and fast if they are to survive methinks...

-1 recommendation

anonnotreall

Anon

Re: Wow

They would have to charge you more per month than Bell if that was the solution
openbox9
Premium Member
join:2004-01-26
71144

openbox9

Premium Member

Re: Wow

Kinda the point

Raptor
Not a Dumptruck
join:2001-10-21
London, ON

Raptor

Member

Competition?

"Bell is competing with a number of major cable companies, not to mention Voice over Internet Protocol providers and cellphone carriers."

A number of cable companies??? I suppose technically 1 is a number....Just because they're branded under different names, doesn't mean they're not essentially all Rogers.

It's Bell or Rogers....Rogers or Bell. And maybe Telus here and there. Two companies does not equal competition, and that's IF you can get service from the other in an certain area.

It's a duopoly, they don't compete by undercutting and competition. Instead, one raises prices or initiates a new directive (throttling, caps, etc) and the other FOLLOWS suit. Sweet, consumer choice! They both keep customers because there is no where else for the customer to go that's any different.

Bell is afraid, plain and simple. This gov't lobbying just goes to show it. My what a sh*tstorm this has brewed up.
Doug135
join:2008-01-12
Laredo, TX

Doug135

Member

Re: Competition?

said by Raptor:

It's Bell or Rogers....Rogers or Bell. And maybe Telus here and there. Two companies does not equal competition, and that's IF you can get service from the other in an certain area.
That true two companies don't equal competition, especially when they're in a sense the same thing, just under different names. To them it may seem that two companies is to many. I think there's a saying, "ones company, twos a crowd" or something like that. I bet Bell is just afraid they are losing business to the indie ISPs because they don't cap or throttle and they're losing out on the extra fees and whatnot.

Snickerdo3
Premium Member
join:2001-02-28
Niagara Falls, ON

Snickerdo3 to Raptor

Premium Member

to Raptor
said by Raptor:

A number of cable companies??? I suppose technically 1 is a number....Just because they're branded under different names, doesn't mean they're not essentially all Rogers.
It's Bell or Rogers....Rogers or Bell. And maybe Telus here and there. Two companies does not equal competition, and that's IF you can get service from the other in an certain area.
What's amusing is that Bell bases all their packages and pricing on Rogers, so in Cogeco territory they don't fare very well. I'd love to see what actual market share numbers are like in Cogeco territory, but I've heard that cable subscribers outnumber DSL subscribers in Cogeco territory by a significant margin.

JasonD
@comcast.net

JasonD

Anon

I told you guys before.....

There was no way that Teksavvy was going to last offering excess bandwidth for a mere 10 cents a gig. That amounts to at least enabling abuse of what ultimately is Bell Canada's network.

While I don't necessarily agree with Bell Canada's position of there being 'plenty of competition', but do understand their desire to rid themselves of government regulation.

Mike
Mod
join:2000-09-17
Pittsburgh, PA

1 recommendation

Mike

Mod

Re: I told you guys before.....

When TekSavvy bought bandwidth, I'm pretty sure they bought all of it. That would suck if you bought 100% of a product and could use only 40%.

Bellsucks
@aliant.net

Bellsucks to JasonD

Anon

to JasonD
As far as I know Teksavvy doesn't buy bandwidth from Bell. They buy bandwidth from another source such as Peer 1 and use Bell's backbone to transport the bandwidth.
tranceduden
join:2007-05-16
Mississauga, ON

tranceduden to JasonD

Member

to JasonD
said by JasonD :

There was no way that Teksavvy was going to last offering excess bandwidth for a mere 10 cents a gig. That amounts to at least enabling abuse of what ultimately is Bell Canada's network.

ABUSE ? You're kidding right ? TSI paid all their fees to bell and pay per user fee on top of that for certain amount on B/W. Now Bell is saying sure you can have the b/w but only @ 10% of the speed you have purchased.

URTrolling
@telus.net

URTrolling to JasonD

Anon

to JasonD
said by JasonD :

There was no way that Teksavvy was going to last offering excess bandwidth for a mere 10 cents a gig. That amounts to at least enabling abuse of what ultimately is Bell Canada's network.

While I don't necessarily agree with Bell Canada's position of there being 'plenty of competition', but do understand their desire to rid themselves of government regulation.
Please advise what part of paying pre-defined service price for a pre-defined service constitutes abuse. I shall be fascinated to hear you answer.

JasonD
@comcast.net

JasonD

Anon

Re: I told you guys before.....

Here's my response: allowing unfettered (until now) 1TB transfer = a mere $100 in bandwidth charges.

Teksavvy may pay Bell Canada an access fee, but they shouldn't be allowed to flood Bell Canada's network thanks in part to underpriced bandwidth.

Mike
Mod
join:2000-09-17
Pittsburgh, PA

Mike

Mod

Re: I told you guys before.....

So TekSavvy should not pay for everything they bought.

This means you're in favor for billing by byte?
qworster
join:2001-11-25
Bryn Mawr, PA

qworster

Member

Re: I told you guys before.....

said by Mike:

So TekSavvy should not pay for everything they bought.

This means you're in favor for billing by byte?
So let me get this straight:

I lease a Jaguar from you at FULL WHOLESALE PRICE. I turn around and lease it to the public for the same price you lease Ford Escorts to them for. Because of this, I get more business then you do...

So, that gives you the right to break into my garage and install a govenor on all my Jags so they won't go over 50 MPH?

NO FU%^&(G WAY!!!

URTrolling
@telus.net

URTrolling to JasonD

Anon

to JasonD
said by JasonD :

Teksavvy may pay Bell Canada an access fee, but they shouldn't be allowed to flood Bell Canada's network thanks in part to underpriced bandwidth.
Well, that's a nice attempt at a diversionary "straw man" argument, but it holds no water. It appears that you simply pulled the phrase "flood Bell Canada's network" out of the air with no evidence to support it.

Secondly, contract law and regulatory rulings have little empathy for phrases like "shouldn't", specifically because they are subjective terms.

Lastly, your own emotional response (i.e., your second sentence), it is irrelevant to the discussion.

By the way - a friendly suggestion: one should be very careful that what one writes (even in forums like this), couldn't be construed as libelous

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium Member
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK

KrK to JasonD

Premium Member

to JasonD
I suggest you check into what you are talking about. It's TekSavvy's network. All Bell provides is the last mile connection and routing to TekSavvy.

Snickerdo3
Premium Member
join:2001-02-28
Niagara Falls, ON

Snickerdo3 to JasonD

Premium Member

to JasonD
said by JasonD :

Teksavvy may pay Bell Canada an access fee, but they shouldn't be allowed to flood Bell Canada's network thanks in part to underpriced bandwidth.
Wow, someone left the door to the peanut gallery open tonight.

Teksavvy doesn't use Bell's network for bandwidth. End of story. Bell only provides the copper to the subscriber and the ATM/GigE cloud between the DSLAM and Teksavvy's POP. Teksavvy buys Internet transport from Peer1, Teleglobe, Cogent and a few others.
TheMG
Premium Member
join:2007-09-04
Canada
MikroTik RB450G
Cisco DPC3008
Cisco SPA112

TheMG to JasonD

Premium Member

to JasonD
said by JasonD :

Teksavvy may pay Bell Canada an access fee, but they shouldn't be allowed to flood Bell Canada's network thanks in part to underpriced bandwidth.
Underpriced bandwidth? Have you ever stopped to consider the thought that maybe other ISP's overage charges are OVERPRICED?

I don't know about you, but I don't consider anything more than $1/GB to be a "fair" price.
nebular
join:2007-07-12
Peterborough, ON

nebular to JasonD

Member

to JasonD
The problem here is that Bell was required to offer the service by law and was guaranteed a decent profit. If Bell couldn't handle the network load then they should have either upgraded their infrastructure or revealed to the CRTC that they can't handle the possibility of unregulated traffic on their grid

XoX
join:2003-08-19
Qc, Canada

XoX to JasonD

Member

to JasonD
said by JasonD :

There was no way that Teksavvy was going to last offering excess bandwidth for a mere 10 cents a gig. That amounts to at least enabling abuse of what ultimately is Bell Canada's network.

While I don't necessarily agree with Bell Canada's position of there being 'plenty of competition', but do understand their desire to rid themselves of government regulation.
Bell Network??? That network was built with tax payer money and exclusive right to use by Bell for almost 100 years. Look at telephone revolution history. When all that started. Thousand of Business existed all providing phone service but trough Bell deal and manipulation (government) only a few one survived and Bell became and unregulated monopoly.

a little bit of phone history reported in by the www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com

Here just in case you don't want to go read the whole thing :"By 1915, there were over 1500 telephone companies in Canada, either competing with Bell or extending service to areas not yet reached by the telephone. Instead of adopting a regulatory system, government ownership of the telephone system was established in Manitoba (Manitoba Telephone Service) in 1908, Saskatchewan (SaskTel) in 1909 and Alberta (Alberta Government Telephones) in 1906. Despite the success of competitive telephony, actions by Bell and several regulatory decisions between 1912 and 1916 led to the disappearance of competition. From this period until approximately 1985, telephone service in Canada developed as a natural monopoly.".

»www.thecanadianencyclope ··· A0007901

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium Member
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK

KrK to JasonD

Premium Member

to JasonD
TekSavvy pays approx $21 a month for each and every user to Bell, plus they buy all their own bandwidth.

They are not abusing anything, other then maybe "abusing" the competition's right to GOUGE.

Froggy
@teksavvy.com

Froggy

Anon

Bell Canada Seeks Death Blow For Indie ISPs

The rich will have dedicated lines from FCI and the poor will go back to dial-up if this happens... dial-up from America.

adisor19
join:2004-10-11

adisor19

Member

Congratulations to all of you who voted conservative

What a great choice the majority has made! Yes, it is a democracy but unfortunately, it comes with its bad side as well when idiots win the vote. We now have a government that likes to NOT intervene in the economy/market and this only screws the consumer. Way to go Canada ! I said it before, and i'll say it again : a little socialism NEVER hurt anyone !

I sure as hell am gonna vote for the NDP at the nest elections as they seem to be the ONLY party giving a damn about this whole situation.

Adi

corster
Premium Member
join:2002-02-23
Oshawa, ON

1 edit

corster

Premium Member

Re: Congratulations to all of you who voted conservative

said by adisor19:

What a great choice the majority has made! Yes, it is a democracy but unfortunately, it comes with its bad side as well when idiots win the vote. We now have a government that likes to NOT intervene in the economy/market and this only screws the consumer. Way to go Canada ! I said it before, and i'll say it again : a little socialism NEVER hurt anyone !

I sure as hell am gonna vote for the NDP at the next elections as they seem to be the ONLY party giving a damn about this whole situation.

And if this is the only issue that you vote for, then you my friend, shouldn't be voting at all.

But hey, if you do vote NDP, enjoy your unthrottled internet, which you can't afford because you were laid off, because your company couldn't afford the $50/hr minimum wage and 99% corporate income tax.... not to mention the fact that while you were working, you couldn't save anything because the NDP's considers anybody making above minimum wage "rich", and decided they should pay a 90% income tax.

Thank god the NDP will never ever form a government.

sbrook
Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa

sbrook

Mod

Ask not for whom the bell tolls ...

This is called "We don't want regulation on what we can charge indies for the last mile service and the backhaul service."

It will, for many, be a death knell ... but for some it will be an opportunity to negotiate non-throttled backhauls etc. Probably rates will go up for the indies to comparable to sympatico though. Which is probably what Bell is hoping.

More attempts at the use of dominant position!
banner
Premium Member
join:2003-11-07
Long Beach, CA

banner

Premium Member

Independent?

I think Carl was mistaken when he called the other ISP's 'Independent"

Independent: Not governed by a foreign power; self-governing. Free from the influence, guidance, or control of another or others; self-reliant:

root9
join:2005-04-08
Kitchener, ON

1 edit

root9

Member

WAR - NING !!!

Like I've been saying all along ... Rogers and Bell have declared WAR on all users in Canada with support from USA ISP's and governments. What those idiots have planned would make your nutz turn to raisins.

If users in Canada do not band together and fight back in every way possible we are going to loose our Internet as we know it. Especially education, privacy, freedom of speech, sharing of any files via any way, blogs, websites, chats, IRC, VOIP and anything they deem against them ... Much worse than China.

To this point the Internet has been a real pain in the ass to them and we have been able to disclose their bad practices ... and that's about to end if we don't fight back FULLY!

This comes straight from Illuminati and Committee of 300 insiders. "Wake up ... fight back ... or loose it."

ykronic
Premium Member
join:2006-01-31
Canada

ykronic

Premium Member

Re: WAR - NING !!!

said by root9:

If users in Canada do not band together and fight back in every way possible we are going to loose our Internet as we know it. Especially education, privacy, freedom of speech, sharing of any files via any way, blogs, websites, chats, IRC, VOIP and anything they deem against them ... Much worse than China.
I think you may have lost perspective here, bell is trying to get rid of the competition and most other ISP's are throttling torrents......no one's trying to put up a nationwide firewall to prevent free press, anti-conservative websites, etc etc

travisc
join:2001-11-09
Uxbridge, ON

travisc

Member

Re: WAR - NING !!!

tudmax long ago lost all perspective. Now he's approaching the tinfoil hat stage.

root9
join:2005-04-08
Kitchener, ON

2 edits

root9

Member

Re: WAR - NING !!!

Thanx for the compliments

You can think and say what you like and I also say that if users banded together from the start and fixed Rogers, Bell and all big business's attitudes we wouldn't be in this mess. As history shows, you give a big business power and they will use it to totally screw you. As in this case.

If you don't insure your rights and privilages you will loose them. Again, as this case shows.

You don't take my and some other PPL's advise and fight back in a manner that works then it's your loss. Therefore everyone suffers due to inaction, band-aid patches and hair-brain ideas.

As the saying goes "Complacency is the worst enemy of any free society."
root9

1 edit

root9 to travisc

Member

to travisc
So I don't know what I'm talking about?

Have a good read people: »www.michaelgeist.ca/cont ··· 811/125/
This is how it's done and any user out there can do same. Group of users works much better :P

Now that you have the info, this can also be done with Rogers or any ISP in Canada under Canadian laws

smallworlds
@verizon.net

smallworlds

Anon

reap the choices made

canada has it's share of problems.. but i've been a casual observer of this trend for years... canada's largest business are running roughshod over the consumer left and right.. (in telecom it results in caps, throttling, predatory pricing, less value for the consumer, pitiful innovation) through liberal and conservative administrations and it only gets worse. sooner or later the public will get fed up with the nonsense and begin monopoly reform to allow new upstart competitors in its major cities (the ones that exist today are bottom feeding grubs teetering on the edge of extinction).. forget rural areas.. as no one will touch them with thousands of feet of softwood lumber. if you can't make competition a success in major cities, rural areas are way off the radar.

there were at least two attempts to break and reform the obscene monopolies of the 1980's into something more palatable. canada is way behind in any reasonable reform and they'll suffer for it for years to come.

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium Member
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
Netgear WNDR3700v2
Zoom 5341J

KrK

Premium Member

Re: reap the choices made

said by smallworlds :

but i've been a casual observer of this trend for years... canada's largest business are running roughshod over the consumer left and right..
They are following the lessons from the USA Corporations....
Gardener
Premium Member
join:2006-10-19
Burnaby, BC
·TELUS

Gardener

Premium Member

Free the Last Mile

What we need is an independent last-mile service. Separate the delivery from the content. A consumer would rent (or purchase) the last-mile service to their premises, and then have the providers of their choice feed phone, tv, whatever down the line. We would not be held hostage by wire-owners.

Remember that government plan to provide high-speed conncections to every home in Canada? Of course it didn't happen, but the idea is not without merit.

•••••••••••••
pudgemuir
join:2007-01-02
canada

pudgemuir

Member

Open source

I cant even Download opensource Os through torrent with tech savvy anymore.. Bell is a bunch of $##$

TigerLord

join:2002-06-09
Canada

TigerLord

Going downhill...

I do not understand why as the technology evolves so fast, ISP downgrade in service quality and has been doing so for a few years now. 50mbit connections with a 50GB cap? Throttled connections that are already slow by other countries standards... sure, we can't compare America with Europe, but Docsis 3.0 is already rolling out, they can't handle the load? Are they too cheap tp upgrade the network, too greedy, or simply cannot?

HD is now a common thing in households. OpenSource is also getting more and more popular. The filesharing, be it legal or not, is only going to raise.

I own 15 games on Steam. Portal alone is 6GB. Does it make sense for me to have to use 1/8 of my cap to get a game I legally purchased? I think abusers, doing 400GB-500GB each month, should be shut down. Since they all go at ISPs that advertise unlimited bandwith, shouldn't be too hard.

My average for the last 3 months is 83GB each month. I think a 100GB-200GB monthly cap, unthrottled connection would be fair for high-end connections that already cost 100$+tx/month. It's simply ridicoulous to ask 130$/month like Videotron does for a 50mbit connection and restrict it with a 50GB cap.

Videotron for that matter is one of the only ISP in Canada that does not throttle. How long will it get before they do, though? With crappy alternative like Bell, that have now succesfully crippled their competitors significantly, why shouldn't they? They would simply jump on the bandwagon. Good service means nothing today, and no major companies hold a candle to keeping high standards.

I'm saddened by this. Technology evolves, our ISPs go backward. Is it greed?

•••
rcomputer
join:2004-11-03
Milton, ON

rcomputer

Member

Sad beavers

The sad Bell beavers often say "Not Shared" so my unthrottled bandwidth does not impact them

Chris S
@rogers.com

Chris S

Anon

The many-headed Hydra that is Bell Canada Inc.

The only 2 truly independent ISPs I can find in Ontario who have built their own network all started off as publicly-funded and were founded around the same time Bell came into being, in the early 1900s: BMTS and AM Telecom.

This flies in the face of Bell's logic where they argue that 10 years is more than enough time for a small business to build up its own last-mile network. The considerable resources alone, both financial and logistical, require significant outset of capital and could never be undertaken by young and innovative upstarts meeting a market demand, not in 10 years but perhaps in 20 or 30. A little kick-start in the form of grants or tax relief in order to accommodate this certainly might be warranted.

In my humble opinion, Bell Canada Inc. should've never been allowed to mutate into an Internet Service Provider, Television Network, Newspaper Publisher, Satellite Communications Firm, Cellular Network Provider, and investment holdings company. The spirit of the Railway Act, Bell Canada Act, and Telecommunications Act has become so diluted in the last half of the 20th century, well beyond the original spirit of the law.

The many-headed Hydra we recognize today would've turned the stomachs of Macnault, Anglin, Audette, and Maclean, the Supreme Court justices who paved the way for the expropriations by the Crown for the building Bell's sacred telecom network that it clings to for dear life.

Bell Canada Act, S.C. 1987, c. 19, 5. "The works of the Company are hereby declared to be works for the general advantage of Canada."