 
batterup
I Can Not Tell A Lie.
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ
clubs: | Is there an ISP bible. They all quote the same chapter and verse. | |
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thats not all
@videotron.ca | Check this. It goes much more deeper Check here for whats really going on with Bell... IT goes much deeper than a simple throttle.
Look for yourselves:
»www.p2pnet.net/story/13883 | |
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TScheisskopf
World News Trust
join:2005-02-13
Belvidere, NJ | Re: Check this. It goes much more deeper Abusers often tell those they abuse that "It's for their own good". | |
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espaeth
Digital Plumber
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
 ·voip.ms
·Vitelity VOIP
·Callcentric
·VoiceStick
·ViaTalk
 ·Comcast
 ·Embarq
| Re: Is there an ISP bible. said by batterup  :They all quote the same chapter and verse. Yeah, it's a vast conspiracy that spans this entire decade, and it started with colleges.
»www.d.umn.edu/itss/resnet/bandwidth.html
Second, we know based on experience that it won't work just to double our bandwidth. It won't work to triple our bandwidth (at triple the cost). Based on studies, we'd likely need to increase the bandwidth by a factor of ten or more. And based on our analysis of the traffic that is filling the ResNet pipe, we'd be buying that bandwidth to provide more access to file-sharing programs, not to meet academic needs.
...
[What can residents do to help?] Download what is most important to you, giving priority to your work as a student. Make sure you do NOT download music, videos, or other work that is copyrighted. Avoid downloading indiscriminately or excessively. If everyone did this, the network would be much faster. »www.educause.edu/ir/library/powe···0402.pps
Astronomic growth of P2P pegs Resnet bandwidth at whatever cap happens to be in place
Good Users impacted as well as P2P users »www.denison.edu/offices/computin···ing.html
To make it even more difficult of a challenge, a number of popular applications like Kazaa, BitTorrent, and other "peer-to-peer" file sharing applications intentionally try to capitalize on all available bandwidth the system the software is running on has at its fingertips. If our internet traffic was not shaped to ensure equitable use a very small number of systems could easily clog our internet connection making it unusable. »uwadmnweb.uwyo.edu/BENICE/Bandwidth.asp
In early 2000, TSS noticed that outbound traffic to the Internet from the residences was skyrocketing. Sometime that summer, to help relieve some of the bottleneck, TSS decided to up the campus bandwidth from 10 to 30 Mbps. That fall all the students returned and for some really strange reason, they ate up every bit of the old and new bandwidth. The rest of campus was crippled. The ResNetters were filling the 30 Mbps outbound pipe 24 hours a day, every day. | |
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| | Done_Posting
Shoot to kill
Premium
join:2003-08-22
Toledo, OH | Re: Is there an ISP bible. My god -- it looks like I spoke too soon (see my comment below). THANK YOU for a non-biased and informative post. What a welcome deviation from the norm around here!
- Tate
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Happiness is an OC-48 in your basement... | |
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james
join:2001-02-26
antarctica
| What I dont understand anymore is this: Say for the sake of argument, two people are sharing a line that can handle up to 100k down, and both are able to use that full 100k when they want as long as the other isn't using any. Does throttling mean that if user A is using 80K/s and B is trying to use a program that requires 30K/s to work, the network will give each user equal access to their half of the bandwidth, so each will max at 50k/s if they're maxing at the same time?
OR does it mean that all User A's traffic that looks like bittorrent will always be capped at 50K/s regardless of whether B is using his connection.
Are both of these "traffic shaping" and if so perhaps there should be some distinction made in terminology. | |
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| | | Done_Posting
Shoot to kill
Premium
join:2003-08-22
Toledo, OH
·buckeye cable
|  Re: Is there an ISP bible.
said by james :Are both of these "traffic shaping" and if so perhaps there should be some distinction made in terminology. Basically, "traffic shaping" is a generic term that represents the act of intentionally controlling a packet's access to an inbound or outbound pathway. There are several flavors of shaping, and I don't want to go into their technical intricacies here. If you're interested though, just google "leaky bucket" and "token bucket" -- those will get you off to a good start.
In response to the scenario you presented, there are many factors involved in deciding how to divide the 100 KB/s (hereafter referred to as "800 Kbps"). As you said, either customer can use the full 800 Kbps as long as the other is not using the connection. Theoretically, if they both are online at the same time and doing something that is maxing their connections (such as watching streaming video), they'll each be given an equal and fair 400 Kbps to use. What if they're not both doing the same thing though? What if Customer A is using VoIP (VoIP actually doesn't need more than 64 Kbps -- we'll just pretend it consumes 600 Kbps for this example though), while Customer B is trying to download "King Kong" via Bit Torrent? Well, if the system is set up "properly" Customer A will get 600 Kbps while he's using his VoIP service and Customer B will be forced to download at no more than 200 Kbps max. Once Customer A stops his VoIP calls, then Customer B's "King Kong" download would shoot back up to the full 800 Kbps. That's assuming that P2P is given full access to network resources when there is no higher priority traffic trying to use the pipe. It's possible that Customer A and B's ISP only allows up to 200 Kbps for P2P traffic even if there's no other traffic present though (leaving 600 Kbps completely unused). I would say that's not good network management but I can think of reasons why they'd want to do it that way.
Again, my example was purposely simplified for the sake of brevity. Traffic shaping is actually a really complex and fascinating subject (to me anyway), with lots of technical and moral aspects that the majority of sheeple are completely oblivious to. It's a shame that it's so hip to jump on the "Anti-Corporate / Evil Empire" bandwagon these days, because people might have an entirely different opinion on the matter if they'd bother to try and learn rather than blindly pissing and moaning. Oh well; I guess that's just how our society works.
In any event, I hope this helped you out!
- Tate
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Happiness is an OC-48 in your basement... | |
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batterup
I Can Not Tell A Lie.
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ
clubs:
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Is there an ISP bible. said by Done_Posting :What if they're not both doing the same thing though? What if Customer A is using VoIP (VoIP actually doesn't need more than 64 Kbps -- we'll just pretend it consumes 600 Kbps for this example though), while Customer B is trying to download "King Kong" via Bit Torrent? Well, if the system is set up "properly" Customer A will get 600 Kbps while he's using his VoIP service and Customer B will be forced to download at no more than 200 Kbps max. Network Neutrality will put an end to that. | |
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| | | | | Done_Posting
Shoot to kill
Premium
join:2003-08-22
Toledo, OH
·buckeye cable
| Re: Is there an ISP bible. said by batterup :Network Neutrality will put an end to that. Yeah, great call! Network Neutrality will surely make free, unlimited bandwidth appear out of nowhere. 
- Tate
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Happiness is an OC-48 in your basement... | |
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batterup
I Can Not Tell A Lie.
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ
clubs:
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Is there an ISP bible. said by Done_Posting :said by batterup :Network Neutrality will put an end to that. Yeah, great call! Network Neutrality will surely make free, unlimited bandwidth appear out of nowhere. - Tate No but it WILL stop VoIP from consuming all of the porn though. | |
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dadkins
Can you do Blu?
Premium,MVM
join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA
·Comcast
| Ya know... ... the shit's getting deep!
Bell Sympatico, Comcast, *insert ISP here*______________ throttling traffic "for our own good" is horseshit!
IDIOTS! Ya know, if my connection plain smokes along, i will finish and be off the network when it completes!
When these dumbasses throttle me/us, I/We are on the network longer.
DUH!!!
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Think outside the Fox... Opera | |
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hopeflicker
Capitalism breeds greed
Premium
join:2003-04-03
Long Beach, CA
1 edit | Re: Ya know... said by dadkins :DUH!!! said by dadkins :... the shit's getting deep! IDIOTS! Ya know, if my connection plain smokes along, i will finish and be off the network when it completes! When these dumbasses throttle me/us, I/We are on the network longer. DUH!!! That makes complete sense (and that's no sarcasm) 
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People pray to God because they're told to. | |
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TKJunkMail
Enjoy the sun
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Avalon, NJ
 ·Sprint Mobile Broa..
·Comcast
| said by dadkins :... the shit's getting deep! Bell Sympatico, Comcast, *insert ISP here*______________ throttling traffic "for our own good" is horseshit! IDIOTS! Ya know, if my connection plain smokes along, i will finish and be off the network when it completes! When these dumbasses throttle me/us, I/We are on the network longer. DUH!!! They aren't doing it for those users who get on, do their business, and get off like you are saying. They are doing it for those users who are running p2p servers 24x7 in an automated manner and are eating bandwidth the whole time.
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Internet News
My BLOG
My Web Page
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Jovi
join:2000-02-24
Mount Joy, PA
·T-Mobile US
| Re: Ya know... said by TKJunkMail :said by dadkins :... the shit's getting deep! Bell Sympatico, Comcast, *insert ISP here*______________ throttling traffic "for our own good" is horseshit! IDIOTS! Ya know, if my connection plain smokes along, i will finish and be off the network when it completes! When these dumbasses throttle me/us, I/We are on the network longer. DUH!!! They aren't doing it for those users who get on, do their business, and get off like you are saying. They are doing it for those users who are running p2p servers 24x7 in an automated manner and are eating bandwidth the whole time. Any proof that they are not capping all users if an area has alot of people online at the same time? I am sure these streaming HD shows that many televison networks provide eat alot of bandwidth. P2P is not the bane for everything that ill's us.
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"Where's my coffee? Oh. I guess it's my turn to make it."  | |
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bzzz wrong
@videotron.ca
 from:
dadkins
| said by TKJunkMail :They aren't doing it for those users who get on, do their business, and get off like you are saying. They are doing it for those users who are running p2p servers 24x7 in an automated manner and are eating bandwidth the whole time. They are doing it for ALL USERS, as can be seen in their own forum »www.supportcommunity.sympatico.ca | |
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| | | openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA | Re: Ya know... Of course they're doing it for all users, but it will have the biggest impact on those that TCH pointed out. The gluttonous consumers are the ones that primarily drive ISPs to the point that such shaping and capping are necessary. | |
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bzzzt wrongAgain
@videotron.ca
from:
dadkins
| Re: Ya know... said by openbox9 :Of course they're doing it for all users, but it will have the biggest impact on those that TCH pointed out. The gluttonous consumers are the ones that primarily drive ISPs to the point that such shaping and capping are necessary. Ummm no.
There are many casual users who use less than 30-gigs a month asking why they only see 30kB/s and everything is slow for them, only to be told it must be their computer.
There are many casual users who use less than 30-gigs a month asking why their latency is sky-high and being disconnected from online gaming
Refer to sympatico own user forum (link above) and to the DSLreports Sympatico forum. | |
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jaz
@bell.ca
| thats not true at all....i have been working 2 jobs for the past 2 months and have no time to even browse the net...i do that on the road with my laptop...and i come home today to download some shows i missed and im capped at 30 kb on any of the top torrent sites out there. i should easily be getting my top speed with 450 seeders and 4 leechers.
sympatico has just lost another customer | |
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| | | openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA | Re: Ya know... You're talking about P2P, so what's not true? | |
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poor u
@videotron.ca
| poor jaz....
Jaz was just pointing out it affects ALL users. EVEN the ones who may do less than 10-gigs in a month!
Damn and you pay for that?
May I suggest teksavvy to you?
www.teksavvy.com
If you get and BS about cancellation fee's bring the fight in their own forum for all to see and embarass them. | |
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| Thaler
Premium
join:2004-02-02
Encino, CA
| said by dadkins :Bell Sympatico, Comcast, *insert ISP here*______________ throttling traffic "for our own good" is horseshit! *shrugs* At least Bell Sympatico is being honest on this one. Comcast's PR department straight up lies on the matter and expects their TOS to cover their ass. | |
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fsgdsfga
@telus.net | Wow I can't for the day when we're only allowed to use certified web browers and email clients with our ISP.
If they're going to say what we can and can't use our connections for then the price needs to drop to like $5.00 per month. | |
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Done_Posting
Shoot to kill
Premium
join:2003-08-22
Toledo, OH
·buckeye cable
| Who cares? I wish I had a way to filter out DSLR posts about the "horrible evil" of traffic shaping. It seems like no one here is ever capable of looking at the issue rationally or without extreme personal bias, and I'm tired of the one sidedness of it all.
I love DSLR, but god damn, this crap is getting old.
- Tate
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Happiness is an OC-48 in your basement... | |
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TigerLord
Resident Pentaxian
Premium,Mod
join:2002-06-09
Montreal
·Videotron
Host:
International Broa..
Videotron
| Re: Who cares? Not only do they throttle down traffic but they switch heavy users to a 500kbps/500kbps profile at peek hours according to some users.
Now THAT beats the call center in India  | |
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yupitydo
@videotron.ca
| Re: Who cares? said by TigerLord :Not only do they throttle down traffic but they switch heavy users to a 500kbps/500kbps profile at peek hours according to some users. Now THAT beats the call center in India Its been confirmed by a bell employee, so its not "according to some users" anymore. | |
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TigerLord
Resident Pentaxian
Premium,Mod
join:2002-06-09
Montreal | Re: Who cares? Doesn't surprise me one bit... | |
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Surprises
@videotron.ca
| Re: Who cares? said by TigerLord :Doesn't surprise me one bit... Same here.
We know whats next on the list...
Full encryption throttling a-la-Rogers,
Skype
Voip
SSH
VPN
and so forth.... | |
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| | | jester121
Premium
join:2003-08-09
Lake Zurich, IL
 ·surpasshosting
·ViaTalk
| said by yupitydo :said by TigerLord :Not only do they throttle down traffic but they switch heavy users to a 500kbps/500kbps profile at peek hours according to some users. Now THAT beats the call center in India Its been confirmed by a bell employee, so its not "according to some users" anymore. It's according to "someone claiming to be a bell employee."
Much better. | |
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bzzzt wrongAgain
@videotron.ca | Re: Who cares? Nope its an employee. They even oversee the "direct support forum". | |
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TScheisskopf
World News Trust
join:2005-02-13
Belvidere, NJ | So, it's not just traffic shaping for the good of the network, but it is traffic shaping for punitive purposes.
Figures. | |
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| | | openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA | Re: Who cares? I'd say throttling known abusers is for the good of the network. | |
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Firefoxer
join:2007-09-27
Quebec, QC
1 edit | If only If only they were truthful about it instead of lying and spreading disinformation on forums. Just switch the "unlimited" word for 200GB cap combined when you pay for the 25$ option. | |
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Scoop
join:2006-08-05
Ottawa, ON | Re: If only Why anyone would stick with Bell is a mystery to me especially when companies such as Teksavvy and Velcom provide unthrottled and truly unlimited DSL service. | |
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Quake110
join:2003-12-20
Ottawa, ON
1 edit | Re: If only I like Teksavvy's way of doing things:
If you want the premium and want more than 100 GB, pay $10 and get 100 GB more for a total of 200 GB...
Or get the unlimited package (5ms-10ms more). | |
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karlmarx
join:2006-09-18
iraq
·Fairpoint Communic..
| The solution is quite sinple DON'T SELL WHAT YOU CAN'T PROVIDE. If you find that 5% of your users are using 5mb/sec 24x7, and your network CAN'T HANDLE IT, then just don't SELL 5mb/sec. Make it a 2Mb/sec connection for the same price. THAT way, you have the ability to PROVIDE WHAT YOU SELL.
It's a very easy solution. If 10% of comcast customers are running at 10mb/sec, 24x7, and comcast can't handle it, then they shouldn't SELL 10mb/sec connections. They should SELL 1mb/sec connections, then their network could handle it.
All the ISP's like to advertise FAST SPEEDS, BUT, if you can only use the FAST SPEED for 1 hour a day, then it's really only 1/24th the FAST SPEED you are buying. I would have no problem if comcast, or bell sympatico just LOWERED their tiers. If people don't like it, then they can LEAVE. But at least you get what you are paying for.
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Stick it to the MAN. Support your local torrent sites. Proudly providing 100mb of upstream for all your TV, Movie, and MP3 needs. | |
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See 7 replies to this post |
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Irenic
join:2000-05-02
Montreal, QC
| The issue ... Another aspect to consider is that Sympatico has both bitcaps and throttling. That is unacceptable. Either solution can be justified, but not both.
We shall see if these issues begin to affect 3rd party ISPs that must use Bell's phone lines to deliver service. | |
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andyb
Premium
join:2003-05-29
SW Ontario | Re: The issue ... Rogers has both also but they dont have any resellers so to speak except 3 web if they still do it. | |
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| Thaler
Premium
join:2004-02-02
Encino, CA
| said by Irenic :Another aspect to consider is that Sympatico has both bitcaps and throttling. That is unacceptable. True.
Bandwidth caps are there to enforce that your customers don't enter that vague "abusive user" category. Why does an ISP need to play "net nanny" and dictate how fast customers can use their own bandwidth? | |
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oi
@videotron.ca
| Re: The issue ... said by Thaler : Why does an ISP need to play "net nanny" and dictate how fast customers can use their own bandwidth? more correctly its:
How fast,
with what,
How,
and when,
Then its
Throttle,
cap,
limit,
reduce speed profile to dial-up speeds,
remove the customer from their Dbase so they can not go to any other 3rd party DSL provider. | |
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DingDang
@rogers.com | Hmmmm Where am I going to get my porn now that they are limiting? | |
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bell rebel
@videotron.ca | Re: Hmmmm dunno, but i personally think all Bell users should queue up as much as possible on p2p and then start 50 web downloads and queue their FTP apps and let it all run till Wed 24/7 to show discontent. | |
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cgigate
join:2003-05-12
Fort Worth, TX | Canadian IPSs suck! Rogers was worst and now Bell is another bad! | |
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InFloW
join:2002-08-10
Fergus, ON
·Cogeco Cable
| There are choices Well the choices are becoming pretty simple for users.
They can make the choice of having the speeds brought down to low levels (256-1mbit) so they can use the service 24/7. Or the isp's can continue to up the speeds and do caps or shape the traffic on the people attempting to push terabytes of data through their connection each month.
I'm paying anywhere from $60-120/mbit to commit to the sort of speeds residential isp's are giving out. If ISP's charged that sort of price I'm sure we'd all have no issue using the connection 24/7 without any hassles what so ever.
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»www.hawkhost.com/
»www.esportsea.com/ | |
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indeedy
@videotron.ca
| Re: There are choices said by InFloW :Well the choices are becoming pretty simple for users. Yes. Dump Bell-Symcrapico | |
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NRHM
@rogers.com
| You know, we can keep downloading things quickly, we just need to curb our usage.
Throttling is here for the next few years. If it goes away, the way Bell, Rogers and pretty well every other ISP in the western hemisphere is pretty well screwed.
What needs to be done, to be honest, is hourly caps. It's the only thing I can think of that will fix this. Randomize the caps so that there are 60 user subsets. Have each subset's cap start at a different minute mark. Once a user hits their hourly limit, they're throttled back to 64KB/s symmetrical for the end of their hour. That's enough to keep e-mail flowing, web pages loading (at a crawl, but loading none the less) and IM popping up without an issue.
Sucks, but it's the only thing I can think of until ISPs get their houses in order and fix the fact that they've been overselling their available bandwidth. I'll take that over having my internet connection dropped to 256kbps because it's over sold. | |
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Bell Sympatico Admits to Throttling